Is OLED Burn-In a Big Problem? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 270 Old 11-17-2018, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Is OLED Burn-In a Big Problem?

While OLED TVs are able to produce impressive imagery, a susceptibility to image burn-in has caused a lot of debate. Here’s an overview of the situation.

Click this link to read more: https://www.avsforum.com/is-oled-burn-in-a-big-problem/

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post #2 of 270 Old 11-17-2018, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Also I am at incheon International airport in Seoul and looking at numerous LG OLED TV's that are installed here as advertisements, playing news and TV 24/7.

Granted who knows when these TVs get to have a compensation cycle implemented, but the lesson is... if you do not take care, trouble lurks.

They all show clear signs of IR at the minimum but also almost certainly burn in, that is easily seen and photographed.

It is interesting to say the least since these TVs are labeled as being "powered by LG Display"
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post #3 of 270 Old 11-17-2018, 03:29 PM
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And what about the Samsung QLED, Q9FN to be exact?
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post #4 of 270 Old 11-17-2018, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardia View Post
And what about the Samsung QLED, Q9FN to be exact?
There are also QLEDs in the terminal and as you would expect zero signs of IR or burn-in. Which mirrors what rings saw. Also worth mentioning, the OLED TV's are not playing the same contents, there are probably dozens of them in the terminal and they are playing different channels but they clearly suffer from problems.

Q9FN should have the same resistance to burn-in as other QLEDs.

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post #5 of 270 Old 11-17-2018, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
And I totally, I am at incheon International airport in Seoul and looking at numerous LG OLED TV's that are installed here as advertisements, playing news and TV 24/7. They all show clear signs of IR at the minimum but also almost certainly burn in, that is easily seen and photographed.

It is interesting to say the least since these TVs are labeled as being "powered by LG Display"
There was a thread started a while back about one of those OLEDs at the Incheon Airport (photo) which had burn in (based upon the zdnet article), that thread was joined with a OLED burn in thread so your info in post #2 cannot be added. Anyway it would be nice if you share some picks.

LG OLED 2018 model burn in at Incheon Airport.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/lg-ole...s-controversy/

LG replaced that model with a LCD.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/lg-swi...d-burn-in-row/


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post #6 of 270 Old 11-17-2018, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
There was a thread started a while back about one of those OLEDs at the Incheon Airport (photo) which had burn in (based upon the zdnet article), that thread was joined with a OLED burn in thread so your info in post #2 cannot be added. Anyway it would be nice if you share some picks.

LG OLED 2018 model burn in at Incheon Airport.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/lg-ole...s-controversy/

LG replaced that model with a LCD.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/lg-swi...d-burn-in-row/


Thank you for the link.

I'll add that link to this article, and when I got home I can put some photos in this thread.

One slight issue is the lack of Internet in the flight. 12 hours of total cutoff!

When I am stateside...

But replacing that one TV? Lol. There are plenty of OLEDs with big issues here in the airport right now and not just a static display of departures. My video clips are easily showing "holy crap' obvious issues on TVs showing a variety of programming.

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post #7 of 270 Old 11-17-2018, 07:56 PM
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I still have a first gen 1080P LG OLED and have owned several other OLEDs since.
No burn in here. Then again I don’t live at the airport...

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post #8 of 270 Old 11-17-2018, 08:04 PM
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Its unfortunate how these networks always have there logo displayed. Anything static is probably a bad thing .
I see some networks have gone to a white logo,and you can see threw it . Hopefully this helps . History channel has a red and yellow logo, so I quit watching it and cnn
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post #9 of 270 Old 11-17-2018, 08:29 PM
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I just had a conversation in a Facebook group about OLED burn-in. Some guy was arguing with me that it wasn't an issue and linked the Rtings article where they tested an LG OLED vs two different types of LCD displays. And in the article it showed that after a number of hours, the OLED had permanent burn-in but both LCD's had no damage whatsoever.


I thanked the guy for proving my point. Needless to say he wasn't happy.


Let that be a lesson. Read the articles you are linking to prove your point before posting them. LOL!
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post #10 of 270 Old 11-17-2018, 08:54 PM
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I have 2 OLED tv's. First one is a 65EF9500, with over 4500 hours. OLED light is set to 100, and contrast at 85 for over 4000 hours. Most watching sports with logos and banners. No BI. My second tv is a 65E6 OLED with over 2000 hours. Again, no BI. It is completely being overblown. Real world use, real world no BI.

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post #11 of 270 Old 11-17-2018, 09:26 PM
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So... LCD's still stink but are still cheap. OLEDs are the only option that look great, but you still risk burn-in despite all the marketing claims that say otherwise. And no TVs of any type offer HDMI 2.1...

So what you are really saying is that it's still a bad time to buy any new TV.

I'll come back again in a year to check on progress. (I write this post every year :-)
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post #12 of 270 Old 11-17-2018, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterfram View Post
So... LCD's still stink but are still cheap. OLEDs are the only option that look great, but you still risk burn-in despite all the marketing claims that say otherwise. And no TVs of any type offer HDMI 2.1...

So what you are really saying is that it's still a bad time to buy any new TV.

I'll come back again in a year to check on progress. (I write this post every year :-)
There are LCDs that look great, maybe not right at the level of OLEDs, but top-tier LCDs can get very close.

I had a rear-projection CRT TV that developed burn-in (most notably lines at 4:3 and 2.35:1 aspect ratio borders on the 16:9 screen) and avoided plasma because the burn-in on my TV bugged me and I didn't want to invest in another TV where it would be a problem. That was also a reason I decided to go LCD over OLED (also being able to get a much larger size for similar money to a smaller OLED).

MicroLED can't come soon enough, assuming that will be free from burn-in concerns.
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post #13 of 270 Old 11-17-2018, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
There are also QLEDs in the terminal and as you would expect zero signs of IR or burn-in. Which mirrors what rings saw. Also worth mentioning, the OLED TV's are not playing the same contents, there are probably dozens of them in the terminal and they are playing different channels but they clearly suffer from problems.

Q9FN should have the same resistance to burn-in as other QLEDs.
My room is very bright in day time too so that might make a better option than OLED. Night timemovie watching is done with the projector...
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post #14 of 270 Old 11-18-2018, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by pottscb View Post
Yep, no airport living for me either...course I'm watching a 7 year old Panny PLASMA with zero burn in so what do I know about avoiding burn in.

These articles are a little one sided...they forgot to include the risks associated with watching an LCD...mainly crappy contrast/blacks and worse viewing-angle...chance of that happening=100%. LCDs public relations lobby must be really well funded, they've already killed one superior technology (plasma) and now they're gunning for a second...all the while still sporting their same old tired technology (the money for the lobby must come from the tons of money they're saving in R&D by never innovating) HA!
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I feel "airport screens" are completely offtopic on a forum like this. Those are in no way representative of normal use of a TV bought by an audiovideo enthusiast.


The risk of burn in exists. But it existed for plasma too. That hasn't stopped me from using my Kuro for more than nine years now, with pretty much zero burn in problems.
No way I would settle for guaranteed lower quality picture in the name of a *risk*. Certainty vs. risk. I know what to choose.

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Originally Posted by pottscb View Post
Yep, no airport living for me either...course I'm watching a 7 year old Panny PLASMA with zero burn in so what do I know about avoiding burn in.

These articles are a little one sided...they forgot to include the risks associated with watching an LCD...mainly crappy contrast/blacks and worse viewing-angle...chance of that happening=100%. LCDs public relations lobby must be really well funded, they've already killed one superior technology (plasma) and now they're gunning for a second...all the while still sporting their same old tired technology (the money for the lobby must come from the tons of money they're saving in R&D by never innovating) HA!
Yes the burn in mongering was a concerted effort by the lcd PR lobby to take down plasma, and it worked to an extent. Now the same is being tried against oled , if you go to social media sites, they jump onto such negative articles to convince themselves and others how they should never buy oled.
From someone who has used oled in a home environment for over a year (airport public display is not representative at all of home use), i would say of all the reasons you might cough up of trying to avoid oled, burn in risk should be right at the bottom of your list. the risk of permanent burn in on oled with normal home use is much less than plasma, which itself affected less than 10% total users.
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post #17 of 270 Old 11-18-2018, 04:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
There are LCDs that look great, maybe not right at the level of OLEDs, but top-tier LCDs can get very close.

I had a rear-projection CRT TV that developed burn-in (most notably lines at 4:3 and 2.35:1 aspect ratio borders on the 16:9 screen) and avoided plasma because the burn-in on my TV bugged me and I didn't want to invest in another TV where it would be a problem. That was also a reason I decided to go LCD over OLED (also being able to get a much larger size for similar money to a smaller OLED).

MicroLED can't come soon enough, assuming that will be free from burn-in concerns.
I own a z9d too beside oled, in a dark room environment, the z9d doesnt come to oled, with lights on it can look closer. watch pacific rim 4k uhd in a dark room and you'll see why z9d is much behind.

and burn in risks are all overstated, see i have been using oled as my primary monitor to hook up my pc since many months.
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post #18 of 270 Old 11-18-2018, 05:34 AM
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Both my OLED TV's are ISF calibrated to 120cd/m2 light output. No problems what so ever. There's no reason to ever go over 120cd/m2 unless you want to watch your TV with a welding mask on.
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post #19 of 270 Old 11-18-2018, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by $$Buck-Naked$$ View Post
Both my OLED TV's are ISF calibrated to 120cd/m2 light output. No problems what so ever. There's no reason to ever go over 120cd/m2 unless you want to watch your TV with a welding mask on.
Sure, as long as you watch in a dimmed room and only SDR content.

200 nits SDR on a TV calibrated for daylight viewing looks great.
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post #20 of 270 Old 11-18-2018, 06:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JLaud25 View Post
I own a z9d too beside oled, in a dark room environment, the z9d doesnt come to oled, with lights on it can look closer. watch pacific rim 4k uhd in a dark room and you'll see why z9d is much behind.

and burn in risks are all overstated, see i have been using oled as my primary monitor to hook up my pc since many months.
LG itself told ratings, which right now is showing that the issue is real, that it varies by panel so one person's experience may not be the same as another's especially with viewing habits in the mix.
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post #21 of 270 Old 11-18-2018, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gorman42 View Post
I feel "airport screens" are completely offtopic on a forum like this. Those are in no way representative of normal use of a TV bought by an audiovideo enthusiast.


The risk of burn in exists. But it existed for plasma too. That hasn't stopped me from using my Kuro for more than nine years now, with pretty much zero burn in problems.
No way I would settle for guaranteed lower quality picture in the name of a *risk*. Certainty vs. risk. I know what to choose.
Well, an airport full of LG OLEDs installed this year and they are all basically ruined and showing extremely severe issues is not totally off topic.

But yeah those panels are likely maxed out and running all day, so torture test.

The simple fact there are also an equal number of completely fine LCDs in the airport must mean something g to someone, even if it means little or nothing to you.

Regardless, it was not the focus of the article, it's just something I happened to see yesterday at that airport. And since they are showing TV, not departure schedules...

Well anyhow obviously people who have OLEDs but do not have issues get upset when the very real and proven issues that affect some people are discussed. They should simply click away and go read something more relaxing since it does not impact them.
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post #22 of 270 Old 11-18-2018, 06:56 AM
 
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rtings does not run tests the same way i watch different content on oled at home, so rtings tests are not pointing out that the risk is real in practical usage scenario.
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post #23 of 270 Old 11-18-2018, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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rtings does not run tests the same way i watch different content on oled at home, so rtings tests are not pointing out that the risk is real in practical usage scenario.
Apparently the risk is real enough for 7 percent of AVS members who took the poll to report it happening to them.

The evidence it is an issue at this point comes from many directions, not just one test or example.

(Edited, I had said 16 percent but I reread my own article and realized 16% referred to the Amazon reviews. 93% of AVS Forum poll respondents said no burn in.)

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post #24 of 270 Old 11-18-2018, 07:06 AM
 
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Apparently the risk is real enough for 16 percent of AVS members who took the poll to report it happening to them.

The evidence it is an issue at this point comes from many directions, not just one test or example.
lol anyone can hit a yes button on a forum even if they did not own an oled, and the sample size on a forum poll is telling nothing.
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post #25 of 270 Old 11-18-2018, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
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lol anyone can hit a yes button on a forum even if they did not own an oled, and the sample size on a forum poll is telling nothing.
Yeah, that's why the other evidence matters. Not just the poll.

Now if someone owns their own OLED that has no burn in, it's all the evidence they need. But dismissing others reported issues?

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post #26 of 270 Old 11-18-2018, 07:16 AM
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Well, an airport full of LG OLEDs installed this year and they are all basically ruined and showing extremely severe issues is not totally off topic.

But yeah those panels are likely maxed out and running all day, so torture test.

The simple fact there are also an equal number of completely fine LCDs in the airport must mean something g to someone, even if it means little or nothing to you.

Regardless, it was not the focus of the article, it's just something I happened to see yesterday at that airport. And since they are showing TV, not departure schedules...

Well anyhow obviously people who have OLEDs but do not have issues get upset when the very real and proven issues that affect some people are discussed. They should simply click away and go read something more relaxing since it does not impact them.
I do not have an OLED. I own and still use a plasma screen. Anybody running an airport and choosing OLED screens as terminal screens is simply incompetent. It's not more complicated than this. What I meant is that airport use has seriously nothing in common with domestic use. Just that.

It's not that I get upset, it's more that I've already seen plasma being attacked for years on this subject and if that's not been the only reason that made the technology disappear, it surely has contributed. Has the AV world been better off because of it? I'd say no, considering that Kuros remained the reference point for... what it was? Four years after their demise?
I'd hate for history repeating itself with OLED, just that.
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post #27 of 270 Old 11-18-2018, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by $$Buck-Naked$$ View Post
Both my OLED TV's are ISF calibrated to 120cd/m2 light output. No problems what so ever. There's no reason to ever go over 120cd/m2 unless you want to watch your TV with a welding mask on.
Mr. Buck-Naked is correct. While I don't doubt the burn-in issue is real, my guess is that it's exacerbated by the very default setting that come with the TVs, which has trained the general public to assume a super-bright, poppy, Sony blue-push picture is the way to HD nirvana. (Also to blame for the publics erroneous assumptions: big box stores blasting the image into an overly bright showroom.)

As Buck-Naked stated, a properly calibrated TV in a somewhat light-controlled environment (as in the sun isn't blasting onto the screen) and using such recommendations as those by the THX company, should have a light output around 35fLs (or, to use more modern parlance, 120 nits).

Is this significantly darker than the general public assumes is correct? Definitely. But does this put us close to what the director/cinematographer/colorist, etc. intended. Absolutely.

It's simply a matter of getting used to it, rewiring our brains. Give those people who love "pop" a couple weeks with a properly calibrated TV and they'll grudgingly get used to it, even admit it looks better.

Even if the TV is calibrated for a brighter room environment and we go as high as 50fLs, we're still talking much darker than the default standard picture, which, on an OLED, has the OLED setting at 100. (Word to the wise to gentleman above who mentioned his OLED setting was 100...turn it down. Like well past 50.)

I remember plasma getting slammed for a similar burn-in argument, which was definitely one of the reasons it failed and inferior LED tech thrived. Let's not let that happen with the superior OLED tech.

Anyway, some final points:

1) i suspect a good portion of the burn-in could be avoided by not having the picture so improperly bright (turn down the OLED or, for LEDs, the backlight)

2) make sure you have any and all screen saver mechanisms turned on on the TV and any peripherals (Apple TV, Blu-ray, etc)

3) don't watch so much damn 24-hour news (MSNBC, CNN, FOX) with all those annoying chyrons and news tickers. Not only will it be better for your TV, it'll be good for your brain too. (24-hr news will invariably turn your brain into extreme left/extreme right mush. The world would be a much better place if we all hovered more towards the middle.

4) Consider getting your TV calibrated by a professional! (Yours truly—www.empiricalav.com—happily serves the Chicagoland area!)

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post #28 of 270 Old 11-18-2018, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gorman42 View Post
I do not have an OLED. I own and still use a plasma screen. Anybody running an airport and choosing OLED screens as terminal screens is simply incompetent. It's not more complicated than this. What I meant is that airport use has seriously nothing in common with domestic use. Just that.

It's not that I get upset, it's more that I've already seen plasma being attacked for years on this subject and if that's not been the only reason that made the technology disappear, it surely has contributed. Has the AV world been better off because of it? I'd say no, considering that Kuros remained the reference point for... what it was? Four years after their demise?
I'd hate for history repeating itself with OLED, just that.
Well, context is needed. Samsung and LG have their TVs in the airport, mounted n Kiosks that advertise the brand and the tech (OLED vs. QLED) so it's not as if these are airport displays for arrival and departure bought by the airport.
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post #29 of 270 Old 11-18-2018, 07:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Yeah, that's why the other evidence matters. Not just the poll.

Now if someone owns their own OLED that has no burn in, it's all the evidence they need. But dismissing others reported issues?
and that 'evidence' is not evident of mixed usage in a practical scenario, so im not paying heed to it, i never run ad loops or news channels more than a hour in one viewing session.

Have you been in South Korea? Looks like you were invited for coffee to Suwon by a certain company
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post #30 of 270 Old 11-18-2018, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Mr. Buck-Naked is correct. While I don't doubt the burn-in issue is real, my guess is that it's exacerbated by the very default setting that come with the TVs, which has trained the general public to assume a super-bright, poppy, Sony blue-push picture is the way to HD nirvana. (Also to blame for the publics erroneous assumptions: big box stores blasting the image into an overly bright showroom.)

As Buck-Naked stated, a properly calibrated TV in a somewhat light-controlled environment (as in the sun isn't blasting onto the screen) and using such recommendations as those by the THX company, should have a light output around 35fLs (or, to use more modern parlance, 120 nits).

Is this significantly darker than the general public assumes is correct? Definitely. But does this put us close to what the director/cinematographer/colorist, etc. intended. Absolutely.

It's simply a matter of getting used to it, rewiring our brains. Give those people who love "pop" a couple weeks with a properly calibrated TV and they'll grudgingly get used to it, even admit it looks better.

Even if the TV is calibrated for a brighter room environment and we go as high as 50fLs, we're still talking much darker than the default standard picture, which, on an OLED, has the OLED setting at 100. (Word to the wise to gentleman above who mentioned his OLED setting was 100...turn it down. Like well past 50.)

I remember plasma getting slammed for a similar burn-in argument, which was definitely one of the reasons it failed and inferior LED tech thrived. Let's not let that happen with the superior OLED tech.

Anyway, some final points:

1) i suspect a good portion of the burn-in could be avoided by not having the picture so improperly bright (turn down the OLED or, for LEDs, the backlight)

2) make sure you have any and all screen saver mechanisms turned on on the TV and any peripherals (Apple TV, Blu-ray, etc)

3) don't watch so much damn 24-hour news (MSNBC, CNN, FOX) with all those annoying chyrons and news tickers. Not only will it be better for your TV, it'll be good for your brain too. (24-hr news will invariably turn your brain into extreme left/extreme right mush. The world would be a much better place if we all hovered more towards the middle.

4) Consider getting your TV calibrated by a professional! (Yours truly—www.empiricalav.com—happily serves the Chicagoland area!)
Calibration to 100-120 nits assumes a dark room, just as movie theaters are dark. Running ISF 120-nit in a living room TV you watch with lights on or during the day looks better with more brightness and yes the calibration still matters as it will lock in the gamma and color.

But.nobody should be grudgingly admitting that a TV that's too dim for the ambient environment looks better than a brighter TV because it is not true.

And again that all completely ignores HDR.

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