Originally Posted by Archaea
Nearfield sealed subs are the cat's meow - firing directly into your chair back.
I was talking to one of the locals the other day. If I was to start from scratch right now with nothing except the experiences I have to guide me - I would put a pair of horn, or ported subs up front, and a single or trio of sealed subs directly behind my chair firing into the back of my chair (maybe into the bottom - haven't experienced that - you'd have to ask Scott Simonian his thoughts on that with his riser). Simple --- Two different sub banks, two subwoofer outs, two distance settings.
I spoke about it in stitch1's room thread, but I think you want either 1 nearfield firing directly into the back of your MLP. Or 3 nearfield, if your center chair is centered in the room - and one sub behind each of the primary three listening positions. I didn't like 2 nearfield centered between three seats in my own room, as the subs were firing into the armrest of my theater chairs, and you lost all the tactile effect and the seat to the left and to the right of the MLP suffered from some localization. So in my testing I liked 1 or 3 to give either the MLP or the optimal three chairs the best theater experience.
Originally Posted by Archaea
I don't have a problem with the idea of mixing horns, ported and sealed because of the specific use case I'm talking about.
I'm not worried about generating huge SPL levels at 10hz. (and it DOES take huge SPL levels at 10hz (or a wooden suspended floor or riser) to notice). But replace that with a nearfield sub in very close proximity to the back of the chair playing 10hz and you can get away with a LOT less SPL and get the tactile feel in spades.
So what, if the overall SPL in the room is not as high as some of the e-pen1s wars say you should have on this forum, because of some sort of phase difference between the horn and the sealed when the only thing you care about at 10hz is the feel. The feel is afforded you regardless of output level by the nearfield sub firing directly into the back of your chair, and it is goooooooooood. In fact there are guys in the tactile feel thread that dominguez1 put together that are intentionally running their near field subs out of phase for more feel at less overall room SPL.
Horns and ported have obvious benefits over sealed at port tune and above in the case of horns. I don't care that a horn can't produce as much output below 15-20hz. That's what the nearfield are for. Give me the easy output of the ported or sealed up front, and the tactile feel of the sealed nearfield to deliver the uber low stuff that you otherwise have to completely overspec your room to produce if the subs aren't nearfield.
Furthermore that uber low stuff makes the room complain, grumble, creak, weaken if played at high dB levels -- the nearfield really solves that.
So think this through with me.
Guys on here are selling ported caps from time to time for next to nothing. There is a guy selling two ported caps for $800 right now. That's unreasonably cheap.
So you put a couple of caps up front. I've long held, and I still do - that for my subjective volume needs - two caps were all I needed. Then you add the nearfield sealed for that tactile feel down low.
2 caps or equivalent ported subs up front on Left and Right. (need more output? get a couple horns)
1-3 cheap nearfield subs like the SI 18HT, run 1-2dB lower than the front sub bank to avoid any sense of the subs being behind you. Bam. Done. World Class Experience.
and that would be cheaper than 8 sealed in all categories amps, cabs, and driver expense.
That's what I have to offer with my experiences ---- combined with my subjective volume preferences anyway, and the best way to get it done on a budget, IMO.
You want DIY - buy two of those LMS 5400 Ultras - make a ported Cap equivalent out of them. Power them with a CV-5000 amp and a minidsp.
Buy 1-3 18" SI HT and place them nearfield, as ABSOLUTELY close to your listening position as possible. Firing into the back of your chair.
You might also consider a 24" sub to fire into the back of both of your chairs at once for nearfield. That thing is a monster. I tried 10" subs nearfield and while they were great subs at super close distance, when you moved them back at all so you could lean the chair back, or put them on the floor, the tactile feel nearly completely disappeared. The nearfield needs to be close, and the bigger the driver the better!
This was all speaking to a specific use case. If you are going to try to match sealed up front, with horns up front, or ported up front - then I'm not saying that's optimal, and the general advice to avoid it might be most reasonable.
Carp, I hope you don't mind me posting a few questions in your thread and apologize in advance for this long rambling post. First I'd like to thank you guys: Archaea, Carp, and all of you running nearfield subs with drivers firing into the back of your chair! It's mainly because of you guys that I'm doing the same now with one of my subs. I still cant get over what a drastic difference it makes!
These two posts from Archaea have really got me thinking "what if". After several months of tinkering with my two subs (JTR Cap 2400 and Rythmik FV15HP) with placement, REW, and FR tweaking with a miniDSP, I'm finally getting the kind of bass that I've always dreamed of. I have the Cap corner loaded up front about 12' away and the FV directly behind MLP with the driver firing right into the back of the couch. I'm getting to the point that I feel like I'm running my subs ridiculously hot most of the time because the bass is so clean and potent without being boomy, making it easy to just keep on running hotter and hotter. For instance, on MMFR, I'm about 8db hot at around -2 on MVC. The bass is crazy good! The problem is, on real demanding material, the FV just isn't quite enough sub in my huge space to hang in there for very long before the heat sink starts getting pretty hot. Its an awesome sub and I don't want to overwork it. I guess I could just add 2 to 3 more FV's behind the couch but from what I've been reading in the DIY section, I could probably build 3 subs that would smash the Rythmiks for way cheaper.
I've also tried running the Cap the same way as the FV firing directly into my back and putting the FV up front. That's a pretty killer combo as well but after a lot of playing I think I actually kind of like the Cap up front and the FV nearfield. Also with the FV up front it has to work even harder. With the FV nearfield, the extra extension down to ~12hz opposed to ~17hz on the Cap is kind of nice. And oddly enough, I kind of like the midbass area (50-80hz) a little better on the FV. For lack of a better word, it feels a little sharper, giving the impression of a bit more slam and articulation. Now from around 20-40ish the Cap just totally owns the FV. Obviously the Cap has a huge output advantage and is a beast, so I'm talking comparisons at reasonable levels.
So I think the plan is now to add a sub behind each seat of my three chair leather couch. I totally agree with your assessment of needing 1 or 3 nearfield subs. Or at least having 1 behind which ever seat your listening from. For instance, with the subs being so close, if I sit one seat over from the seat that has the sub firing directly into it, I can localize it and the experience isn't even half as good as being in the seat with the sub directly behind you. With the sub directly behind there is pretty much no localization and the slam is WAY better. This could partially be because my room is huge and the couch is no where near the back wall. I think a sub behind each of the 3 primary seats would make every seat feel real similar with no localization.
Unfortunately at the moment I have to have my HT in my living room in a VERY open floor plan with a lot of space to fill (~9,500 cubic feet). Reading Archea's post on what he would do if he had to start from scratch has got me thinking. I already have a JTR Cap like he was talking about, so my questions are:
1. Even though my room is so large, if I were to go with 3 DIY 18" sealed subs - and having them so close, one directly behind each seat, do you think they would have enough output to benefit from the extra extension that most DIY ported subs cant offer?
2. For the most part, I've heard that mixing ported and sealed can be a bear to get them to play nicely with each other. I would still have the Cap up front in the mix and possibly even the FV somewhere in there. But if the 3 nearfield DIY subs work out then I would probably just sell the FV. Do you think mixing the ported and sealed would be to much of a problem? My tweaking skills are still limited compared to most of you around here but I'm getting better the more I do.
3. Or, should I just go with 3 DIY ported subs? I was thinking maybe 3 three Marty cubes, even though extension would only be about 20hz. I do have Crowsons to help out on the low end, but from what little bit of experience I have with extension down to 12hz or so with the FV, actual output from the sub defiantly helps in addition to the transducers.
4. If I did go with ported DIY, is plugging the ports an option if I wanted to try sealed?
I've never heard a sealed but before, at least not set up in a HT so I don't really know if I'll like them compared to the ported that I'm so used to. I've owned 3 ported subs - an HSU 12'' MK2 (I think that was it), the Rythmik FV15HP, and now the JTR cap and have really enjoyed them. I'm sure I could learn to like the addition of the sealed though if I could get them to play nice together with the Cap. One nice thing about the sealed enclosures is that they would be a fair amount smaller than the ported and would defiantly help with the whole WAF thing. Since this is all in the living room area, the wife has just barely agreed to letting me put one sub behind the couch, much less three! But somehow she has agreed ...she must really love me I guess
She thinks I'm nuts but knows how much I love this crazy hobby. I think if I had my way, I would maybe put 6 sealed subs (2 stacked behind each seat) or maybe some Ghorns nearfield like some of you guys have. As killer as that would be, I know better than to even ask that lol
I know nothing about building subs and have never even considered it until recently after reading a little in the DIY section. It seams like most bass heads around here eventually go in that direction for many reasons. Since I don't really have any wood working skills and the tools I would need, I think that I would go with one of the flatpack options. Surely I can make that work even if I have to start a build thread and ask more dumb noob questions
If you guys think I should go with the sealed subs, I was thinking about getting the Dayton Audio 18" Ultimax (UM18-22) and cabinet bundles from parts express. If I went with the Marty cubes (was thinking about the next step up - the Johnny but don't think the wife would like the size of these things behind the couch), I would probably get the flatpacks that are now available for these as well and just use the same 18" Ultimax drivers. Then probably power these three with a couple Inukes. Maybe a 6000DSP for the 2 subs and the 3000DSP for the 3rd. Or maybe go with the SI HT18 that's on close out. I think I've read somewhere that the UM18-22 may have a little more output though. That wouldn't be a bad thing for the size of my room. Or there is the SI HST 18" but that is getting a hair spendy for me at this point. If you guys wouldn't mind, I would really appreciate any thoughts you guys have on all this?
Thanks and sorry for all the noob questions.
BTW, Awesome theater Carp! I love that huge screen you have and being that close must be seriously emersive .....and those huge JTR's
Just freaking awesome!! Really makes me wish I had a dedicated room! Maybe in the next 2-3 years