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post #721 of 1598 Old 10-14-2015, 01:12 PM
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My suggestion is to use fiberglass window screen material. Use a wooden batten attached on the ceiling or top of wall, staple screen material where needed then screw another batten to reinforce the staples. Roll out screen the length needed plus about an extra 10" and cut screen then pin it to ceiling out of your way. Start placing the fiberglass batts horizontally until your at the top then drop screen material overtop of insulation and secure with a batten board along the bottom. Then to black it out take a black sheet, like someone already suggested, or cheap black line material stapling in into the battens and replace the screen.
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post #722 of 1598 Old 10-14-2015, 02:06 PM
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When I made 15x15 square bass traps I didnt want the insulation to fall and settle over time. I had 14.5x15.5 fluffy with paper backing on one side. I tacked the paper to the inside of the top board of the frame.

And did you buy your Omnimic from PE? Has crossed my mind to get kit after all my REW troubles last year. Seems like its super user friendly with no big learning curve. Of course I would need a windows machine :/
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post #723 of 1598 Old 10-14-2015, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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When I made 15x15 square bass traps I didnt want the insulation to fall and settle over time. I had 14.5x15.5 fluffy with paper backing on one side. I tacked the paper to the inside of the top board of the frame.

And did you buy your Omnimic from PE? Has crossed my mind to get kit after all my REW troubles last year. Seems like its super user friendly with no big learning curve. Of course I would need a windows machine :/
Yes, I did get the Omni from PE. So easy to use!
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post #724 of 1598 Old 10-14-2015, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the ideas for hanging the insulation guys!
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post #725 of 1598 Old 10-14-2015, 04:19 PM
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We expect comprehensive before and after measurements.

Listening to the new David Gilmour album for first time, in 5.1 it sounds pretty good so far. Quite a bit different than his music from the hey day of Pink Floyd, but better than I expected.

The Barn Jan's on the blu ray (under the extras tab) are freaking awesome....nice to see Richard Wright jamming with David. Sound is really good - in my view these tracks are better than the main disc.
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post #726 of 1598 Old 10-14-2015, 07:16 PM
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it kind of depends on what you want to accomplish with the stuff to the sides of the center channel.


if you have bad front/back wall room modes, maybe the fiberglass is the solution.


if trying to enhance the performance of the center channel and beasts full baffle isn't in the cards, some mini-baffle wings like this might help by reducing cab diffraction (at least horizontally) and will help ameliorate any cancellation reflections coming off the wall directly behind the center. they will also help increase lower midrange sensitivity a bit. that is a qsc speaker. the wings are foam over wood. most all speakers should be made this way, but with waf, it is unlikely to ever "catch on" for living room setups. fill in any void behind with something absorptive so there aren't any strange panel resonances.


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post #727 of 1598 Old 10-16-2015, 07:53 AM
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@carp

Why so light on the subs? Only 8 18s?

Nice room. Would love to check it out sometime. Atmos yet? Haven't read the whole thread.

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post #728 of 1598 Old 10-16-2015, 07:58 AM - Thread Starter
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@carp

Why so light on the subs? Only 8 18s?

Nice room. Would love to check it out sometime. Atmos yet? Haven't read the whole thread.

Derek

Haha, 9 18's - don't forget the nearfield sub behind my main seat! Yeah.... I know.... I have a bit of a problem.

No Atmos yet. I'm waiting for it to get all hashed out with DTS X. Jonathan has Atmos now, and I was over there recently to watch Fury Road and it's crazy impressive but when we switched back and forth between 7.1 and Atmos the difference was not huge. Now, when we went back and forth between Atmos and 7.1 on the Atmos demo disk the difference was much more pronounced.

Kind of like in the Atmos theaters. The demo's before the movie starts are always so much more impressive. I think eventually the movies will be just as impressive, can't wait for that!

Any free time tomorrow? I'll be busy in the afternoon with the Royals game, but in the late morning I don't have anything going on.
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post #729 of 1598 Old 10-16-2015, 08:17 AM
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Holy **** on 9-18s. Woofer envy.

Hmmmm on the Atmos point. If I switch from 7.1 to 5.2.4 the difference is substantial. Even on MM. That movie uses the tops a lot but not in a way that shows it off to the best of their ability. In my opinion Gravity is by far the best use, but that's likely obvious since in 0g 360 becomes more pronounced. I can't emphasize the sound difference between 7.1 and 5.2.4 enough.

Waiting for DTS:X is like waiting for the next solar eclipse. While I recently(currently) am switching from 9.1 to an 11.1 dtsx hdcp2.2 front, it's really not much of a factor today as there is little to no X content. With a June 2016 release date (hold your breath on that one and see how blue you turn), anyone waiting for X is losing tons of valuable Atmos time. And with upgradeable AVR/prepro available today, it's pretty easy to enjoy Atmos knowing you can support X if/when available.

Let me check on tomorrow mid-morning. Same with KSU and Royals tomorrow afternoon/evening and not sure what wife has planned. This will be only the second post season game I've missed these last 2 years, but had to weigh options.....all the new amps and prepro and LCR or buy my ALCS ticket package....Guess which one I chose?
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post #730 of 1598 Old 10-16-2015, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Holy **** on 9-18s. Woofer envy.

Hmmmm on the Atmos point. If I switch from 7.1 to 5.2.4 the difference is substantial. Even on MM. That movie uses the tops a lot but not in a way that shows it off to the best of their ability. In my opinion Gravity is by far the best use, but that's likely obvious since in 0g 360 becomes more pronounced. I can't emphasize the sound difference between 7.1 and 5.2.4 enough.

Waiting for DTS:X is like waiting for the next solar eclipse. While I recently(currently) am switching from 9.1 to an 11.1 dtsx hdcp2.2 front, it's really not much of a factor today as there is little to no X content. With a June 2016 release date (hold your breath on that one and see how blue you turn), anyone waiting for X is losing tons of valuable Atmos time. And with upgradeable AVR/prepro available today, it's pretty easy to enjoy Atmos knowing you can support X if/when available.

Let me check on tomorrow mid-morning. Same with KSU and Royals tomorrow afternoon/evening and not sure what wife has planned. This will be only the second post season game I've missed these last 2 years, but had to weigh options.....all the new amps and prepro and LCR or buy my ALCS ticket package....Guess which one I chose?
I know a lot of guys that have the same impression of atoms/no atmos, so it could have just been that Fury Road was crazy impressive no matter what surround settings are used.

The real issue is money, I also want to buy the minidsp with Dirac so too much to spend my money on right now. I did move my 4 surround speakers down closer to ear level to get Atmos ready, they were up close to the ceiling before. Ha, still have 4 holes in my walls that need to be patched.

Ok, let me know when you find out about tomorrow.
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post #731 of 1598 Old 10-16-2015, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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I'll PM you my number.
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post #732 of 1598 Old 10-16-2015, 08:31 AM
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post #733 of 1598 Old 10-16-2015, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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WOAH!!!! I sh*t you not... right after I read your post the song on Spotify changed to this. Hahaha


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post #734 of 1598 Old 10-16-2015, 09:03 AM
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That is awesome! \m/
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post #735 of 1598 Old 10-16-2015, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoked21 View Post
Holy **** on 9-18s. Woofer envy.

Hmmmm on the Atmos point. If I switch from 7.1 to 5.2.4 the difference is substantial. Even on MM. That movie uses the tops a lot but not in a way that shows it off to the best of their ability. In my opinion Gravity is by far the best use, but that's likely obvious since in 0g 360 becomes more pronounced. I can't emphasize the sound difference between 7.1 and 5.2.4 enough.

Waiting for DTS:X is like waiting for the next solar eclipse. While I recently(currently) am switching from 9.1 to an 11.1 dtsx hdcp2.2 front, it's really not much of a factor today as there is little to no X content. With a June 2016 release date (hold your breath on that one and see how blue you turn), anyone waiting for X is losing tons of valuable Atmos time. And with upgradeable AVR/prepro available today, it's pretty easy to enjoy Atmos knowing you can support X if/when available.

Let me check on tomorrow mid-morning. Same with KSU and Royals tomorrow afternoon/evening and not sure what wife has planned. This will be only the second post season game I've missed these last 2 years, but had to weigh options.....all the new amps and prepro and LCR or buy my ALCS ticket package....Guess which one I chose?
Go cats!!!!

Carp's setup sounds great! Wish I lived closer, at least until winter sets in.

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post #736 of 1598 Old 10-16-2015, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Go cats!!!!

Carp's setup sounds great! Wish I lived closer, at least until winter sets in.
I'm supposed to hate K State, but I've never been a 'my college is better than your college' kind of guy. I've kind of lost it for college sports anyway.

Steve, not saying you are that kind of guy btw.... you know what I mean.
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post #737 of 1598 Old 10-16-2015, 12:50 PM
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I get ya....having graduated from KSU I have to pull for them. They were so baaaaaaaaad when older bothers went there it was beyond embarrassing. I got there for grad school in 1993, things were on the upswing.

If college football gets anymore political and the Big 12 keeps getting left out of the playoffs (many think it's due to number of TV sets) I may punt over to the NFL.

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post #738 of 1598 Old 10-16-2015, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I get ya....having graduated from KSU I have to pull for them. They were so baaaaaaaaad when older bothers went there it was beyond embarrassing. I got there for grad school in 1993, things were on the upswing.

If college football gets anymore political and the Big 12 keeps getting left out of the playoffs (many think it's due to number of TV sets) I may punt over to the NFL.
I was a freshman at Nebraska in the fall of 92 so yes I remember K-State getting really good in the mid 90's. For me it's tough to pay much attention anymore to the Huskers since I was spoiled in college with winning the national championship 3 out of 4 years while I was up there. I lost a lot of interest when Callahan took over (wasn't even smart enough to change his plays when his Raiders went against Gruden's Bucs in the superbowl) and sure enough, he ruined the program.

Now that we are the Big 10 I really could care less. My close college friends that were born in Nebraska aren't really into in anymore either.

I do follow how the jumpers on the track team do from time to time since the head coach (also jumps coach, so he was my coach) is still going strong after all these years but like I say, I never developed any hatred towards other colleges.
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post #739 of 1598 Old 10-18-2015, 12:15 AM
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Nearfield sealed subs are the cat's meow - firing directly into your chair back.

I was talking to one of the locals the other day. If I was to start from scratch right now with nothing except the experiences I have to guide me - I would put a pair of horn, or ported subs up front, and a single or trio of sealed subs directly behind my chair firing into the back of my chair (maybe into the bottom - haven't experienced that - you'd have to ask Scott Simonian his thoughts on that with his riser). Simple --- Two different sub banks, two subwoofer outs, two distance settings.

I spoke about it in stitch1's room thread, but I think you want either 1 nearfield firing directly into the back of your MLP. Or 3 nearfield, if your center chair is centered in the room - and one sub behind each of the primary three listening positions. I didn't like 2 nearfield centered between three seats in my own room, as the subs were firing into the armrest of my theater chairs, and you lost all the tactile effect and the seat to the left and to the right of the MLP suffered from some localization. So in my testing I liked 1 or 3 to give either the MLP or the optimal three chairs the best theater experience.
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I don't have a problem with the idea of mixing horns, ported and sealed because of the specific use case I'm talking about.

I'm not worried about generating huge SPL levels at 10hz. (and it DOES take huge SPL levels at 10hz (or a wooden suspended floor or riser) to notice). But replace that with a nearfield sub in very close proximity to the back of the chair playing 10hz and you can get away with a LOT less SPL and get the tactile feel in spades.

So what, if the overall SPL in the room is not as high as some of the e-pen1s wars say you should have on this forum, because of some sort of phase difference between the horn and the sealed when the only thing you care about at 10hz is the feel. The feel is afforded you regardless of output level by the nearfield sub firing directly into the back of your chair, and it is goooooooooood. In fact there are guys in the tactile feel thread that dominguez1 put together that are intentionally running their near field subs out of phase for more feel at less overall room SPL.

Horns and ported have obvious benefits over sealed at port tune and above in the case of horns. I don't care that a horn can't produce as much output below 15-20hz. That's what the nearfield are for. Give me the easy output of the ported or sealed up front, and the tactile feel of the sealed nearfield to deliver the uber low stuff that you otherwise have to completely overspec your room to produce if the subs aren't nearfield.

Furthermore that uber low stuff makes the room complain, grumble, creak, weaken if played at high dB levels -- the nearfield really solves that.


So think this through with me.

Guys on here are selling ported caps from time to time for next to nothing. There is a guy selling two ported caps for $800 right now. That's unreasonably cheap.

So you put a couple of caps up front. I've long held, and I still do - that for my subjective volume needs - two caps were all I needed. Then you add the nearfield sealed for that tactile feel down low.

Bam!

2 caps or equivalent ported subs up front on Left and Right. (need more output? get a couple horns)
1-3 cheap nearfield subs like the SI 18HT, run 1-2dB lower than the front sub bank to avoid any sense of the subs being behind you. Bam. Done. World Class Experience.


and that would be cheaper than 8 sealed in all categories amps, cabs, and driver expense.


That's what I have to offer with my experiences ---- combined with my subjective volume preferences anyway, and the best way to get it done on a budget, IMO.



You want DIY - buy two of those LMS 5400 Ultras - make a ported Cap equivalent out of them. Power them with a CV-5000 amp and a minidsp.
Buy 1-3 18" SI HT and place them nearfield, as ABSOLUTELY close to your listening position as possible. Firing into the back of your chair.

You might also consider a 24" sub to fire into the back of both of your chairs at once for nearfield. That thing is a monster. I tried 10" subs nearfield and while they were great subs at super close distance, when you moved them back at all so you could lean the chair back, or put them on the floor, the tactile feel nearly completely disappeared. The nearfield needs to be close, and the bigger the driver the better!


This was all speaking to a specific use case. If you are going to try to match sealed up front, with horns up front, or ported up front - then I'm not saying that's optimal, and the general advice to avoid it might be most reasonable.

Carp, I hope you don't mind me posting a few questions in your thread and apologize in advance for this long rambling post. First I'd like to thank you guys: Archaea, Carp, and all of you running nearfield subs with drivers firing into the back of your chair! It's mainly because of you guys that I'm doing the same now with one of my subs. I still cant get over what a drastic difference it makes!

These two posts from Archaea have really got me thinking "what if". After several months of tinkering with my two subs (JTR Cap 2400 and Rythmik FV15HP) with placement, REW, and FR tweaking with a miniDSP, I'm finally getting the kind of bass that I've always dreamed of. I have the Cap corner loaded up front about 12' away and the FV directly behind MLP with the driver firing right into the back of the couch. I'm getting to the point that I feel like I'm running my subs ridiculously hot most of the time because the bass is so clean and potent without being boomy, making it easy to just keep on running hotter and hotter. For instance, on MMFR, I'm about 8db hot at around -2 on MVC. The bass is crazy good! The problem is, on real demanding material, the FV just isn't quite enough sub in my huge space to hang in there for very long before the heat sink starts getting pretty hot. Its an awesome sub and I don't want to overwork it. I guess I could just add 2 to 3 more FV's behind the couch but from what I've been reading in the DIY section, I could probably build 3 subs that would smash the Rythmiks for way cheaper.

I've also tried running the Cap the same way as the FV firing directly into my back and putting the FV up front. That's a pretty killer combo as well but after a lot of playing I think I actually kind of like the Cap up front and the FV nearfield. Also with the FV up front it has to work even harder. With the FV nearfield, the extra extension down to ~12hz opposed to ~17hz on the Cap is kind of nice. And oddly enough, I kind of like the midbass area (50-80hz) a little better on the FV. For lack of a better word, it feels a little sharper, giving the impression of a bit more slam and articulation. Now from around 20-40ish the Cap just totally owns the FV. Obviously the Cap has a huge output advantage and is a beast, so I'm talking comparisons at reasonable levels.

So I think the plan is now to add a sub behind each seat of my three chair leather couch. I totally agree with your assessment of needing 1 or 3 nearfield subs. Or at least having 1 behind which ever seat your listening from. For instance, with the subs being so close, if I sit one seat over from the seat that has the sub firing directly into it, I can localize it and the experience isn't even half as good as being in the seat with the sub directly behind you. With the sub directly behind there is pretty much no localization and the slam is WAY better. This could partially be because my room is huge and the couch is no where near the back wall. I think a sub behind each of the 3 primary seats would make every seat feel real similar with no localization.

Unfortunately at the moment I have to have my HT in my living room in a VERY open floor plan with a lot of space to fill (~9,500 cubic feet). Reading Archea's post on what he would do if he had to start from scratch has got me thinking. I already have a JTR Cap like he was talking about, so my questions are:

1. Even though my room is so large, if I were to go with 3 DIY 18" sealed subs - and having them so close, one directly behind each seat, do you think they would have enough output to benefit from the extra extension that most DIY ported subs cant offer?

2. For the most part, I've heard that mixing ported and sealed can be a bear to get them to play nicely with each other. I would still have the Cap up front in the mix and possibly even the FV somewhere in there. But if the 3 nearfield DIY subs work out then I would probably just sell the FV. Do you think mixing the ported and sealed would be to much of a problem? My tweaking skills are still limited compared to most of you around here but I'm getting better the more I do.

3. Or, should I just go with 3 DIY ported subs? I was thinking maybe 3 three Marty cubes, even though extension would only be about 20hz. I do have Crowsons to help out on the low end, but from what little bit of experience I have with extension down to 12hz or so with the FV, actual output from the sub defiantly helps in addition to the transducers.

4. If I did go with ported DIY, is plugging the ports an option if I wanted to try sealed?

I've never heard a sealed but before, at least not set up in a HT so I don't really know if I'll like them compared to the ported that I'm so used to. I've owned 3 ported subs - an HSU 12'' MK2 (I think that was it), the Rythmik FV15HP, and now the JTR cap and have really enjoyed them. I'm sure I could learn to like the addition of the sealed though if I could get them to play nice together with the Cap. One nice thing about the sealed enclosures is that they would be a fair amount smaller than the ported and would defiantly help with the whole WAF thing. Since this is all in the living room area, the wife has just barely agreed to letting me put one sub behind the couch, much less three! But somehow she has agreed ...she must really love me I guess She thinks I'm nuts but knows how much I love this crazy hobby. I think if I had my way, I would maybe put 6 sealed subs (2 stacked behind each seat) or maybe some Ghorns nearfield like some of you guys have. As killer as that would be, I know better than to even ask that lol

I know nothing about building subs and have never even considered it until recently after reading a little in the DIY section. It seams like most bass heads around here eventually go in that direction for many reasons. Since I don't really have any wood working skills and the tools I would need, I think that I would go with one of the flatpack options. Surely I can make that work even if I have to start a build thread and ask more dumb noob questions

If you guys think I should go with the sealed subs, I was thinking about getting the Dayton Audio 18" Ultimax (UM18-22) and cabinet bundles from parts express. If I went with the Marty cubes (was thinking about the next step up - the Johnny but don't think the wife would like the size of these things behind the couch), I would probably get the flatpacks that are now available for these as well and just use the same 18" Ultimax drivers. Then probably power these three with a couple Inukes. Maybe a 6000DSP for the 2 subs and the 3000DSP for the 3rd. Or maybe go with the SI HT18 that's on close out. I think I've read somewhere that the UM18-22 may have a little more output though. That wouldn't be a bad thing for the size of my room. Or there is the SI HST 18" but that is getting a hair spendy for me at this point. If you guys wouldn't mind, I would really appreciate any thoughts you guys have on all this?

Thanks and sorry for all the noob questions.

BTW, Awesome theater Carp! I love that huge screen you have and being that close must be seriously emersive .....and those huge JTR's Just freaking awesome!! Really makes me wish I had a dedicated room! Maybe in the next 2-3 years
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1400cuft Sealed Room on Suspended Floor | SY Triple Black Velvet Blackout | GIK Treatments | Denon AVR-X6300H - 7.6.4 Atmos | KEF Q Series Speakers | Epson 5040UB 4K | Eyes 7' to 120" AT Seymour Screen | Oppo UDP-203 | Xbox One X | Apple TV 4K | 6x 18" Sealed DIY Subs | 6x Crowson MAs | 4x BK LFEs | BOSS 'Sub Riser' w/ 6x JBL-12s | MiniDSP 10x10HD
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post #740 of 1598 Old 10-18-2015, 07:23 AM
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@SBuger ,

I REALLY APPRECIATE that you were willing to try something new and see how it worked for you. That's something missing on these forums as of late, and you'd fit right in with some of the local enthusiasts if you lived around here.

In regards to mixing sealed and ported - post 2352 in the JBL 4722N thread I talk about this. LTD02 removed some of the mystery on this topic for me, and as shown with the FR capture you can successfully integrate ported and sealed. It can work, and well.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...l#post37557298

Do you have the active (amped) or the passive Captivator? If you have the amped, you'll want to find out what order HPF Jeff has integrated on the Cap 2400. I do not know that answer - mine were passive. If you have a passive, --- yeah just buy a second and purchase a mic2200 from Behringer and be done with the front of your room. So this question may change your game plan.

I wouldn't use a set of 20hz ported Marty subs behind your chair. Go with sealed. But, you already know that answer because you said you liked the FV-15HP behind your chair more than the Caps due in part to the lower tune. Having the sealed behind your chair is fantastic - that's all I'll say about that. In my big room using the sealed nearfield is really the only time the deepest frequency reproduction is noticeably detectable --- with your big room (and seating location somewhat in the middle of the room) - it would probably be the same - certainly if you don't buy piles of 18" sealed subwofoofers.

Listen to this track on your nearfield FV15-HP and see if you think you hear port chuffing or labor on the part of the FV-15HP -- if you do then you'll benefit from the sealed instead. If not, and the track is super impressive as it is, then you're probably okay with a second or third FV-15HP for nearfield if that's your preference. But at the pricepoint of entry between 3 sealed AIY nearfield and buying two more FV-15HP --- well -- the AIY option is much cheaper.

Post 2347 -
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...l#post37554890
https://soundcloud.com/harry-bercule...rcules-walkens

I don't think it'll matter too much if you go with UM18-22 or SI 18HT for nearfield sealed. The difference is only a dB or two, which is a click or two on the AVR volume. I wouldn't get too worried about the benchracing of the two subs - they'll both work great for the application. If you are buying flatpacks from parts express I think the cost difference was like $30 bucks. At that point then sure go for the UM. If you are building flatpacks or can find a better deal elsewhere, then sometimes the savings can be more and then you'll lean towards the SI HT18. The other consideration is amplifier power expense. If you want to take advantage of that little bit of extra headroom on the UM18 then you'll need more powerful (more expensive) amplifiers. If you go with three sealed behind your main listening space then I would recommend a single amp bridged to power all three. For my UM18-22 I've wired them to 1ohm each and bridged the 3 to a 3 ohm load on the Cerwin Vega CV-5000 - which provides about 5,000 watts for the three UM subs. You could do similar with a less powerful amp on the SI 18HT - perhaps even a Behringer EP4000 amp would get it done - supplying about 2,000 watts bridged for the three SI subs. The couple iNuke plan you mentioned would also work, I'm using that setup for my front five basically (two iNuke 6000s and one iNuke 3000) - but I like the idea of keeping like banks connected to a single amplifier when possible - if only for the OCD compulsion, which is probably silly concern, that I can ensure all subs are getting the exact same signal at the exact same time. (I've tried to test for an issue with this between the iNuke DSP 6000 and iNuke DSP 3000 in my room, and from what I could tell watching impulse response it was identical -- but I'm still a novice in that realm, and my testing method is novice - (FWIW, I've noticed no problems doing this). Here is that thread - https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...identical.html) For EQ of the nearfield you can employ a minidsp like carp has, or one of the other EQ tools available, or even Audyssey or your AVR auto EQ toolset may help. The nearfield's SPL output, or more importantly - tactile feedback, won't be a concern. The nearfield 18" subs can overpower you with tactile feedback (as I'm sure the FV-15HP can as nearfield. @stitch1 and I were listening to just my three nearfield Friday night, and he has four SI in his room nearfield, and he noted the same thing. With just the nearfield on you don't need more output -- assuming you are a mortal.


I like your intentions. I think they will work great to conquer your big space and keep you in bass bliss. The one thing I would strongly suggest is that you buy an Omnimic or learn REW --- it is indispensable. I wish I would have purchased one earlier. If someone said to me now I'm going to steal all your AV equipment except one thing and you'll have to replace everything (disregarding cost) - what will you keep? It'd be my Omnimic. You can do so much with it, and learn so much with it, and it, or another EQ discovery tool should be the starting block for a great theater experience IMO.
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post #741 of 1598 Old 10-18-2015, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the comliments Sbuger!!

Jonathan covered it all, so not much to add...

As far as nearfield subs go, I like just having 1. Like you say, it can be localized a bit with having a nearfield sub to the side. Since most of the time I'm the only one in the room that cares about having the bass just perfect it doesn't matter that the other seats don't have their own near subs. So, if you are in the same boat then forget about having more than one. However, if you have other people that do care then I would go with 3 and have only the sub behind you on when you are by yourself.

I like sealed for nearfield for the reasons Jonathan stated + they are smaller so they are easier to fit behind your seat. I honestly haven't tried a ported sub nearfield, but I really don't care if it's more tactile/punchy/whatever because I have all I need with the single SI 18. I've experienced 2 nearfield Othorns, NOTHING is going to be punchier than that. Those subs can make you involuntarily blink your eyes and affect your breathing. As cool and fun as that is, I am still happy with the single 18 and don't find myself day dreaming about more output... yet...

So, yeah, I would say either SI or Dayton UM (or Dayton HO if they are still around) and then decide if you want 1 for your seat or 1 for each seat.
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post #742 of 1598 Old 10-18-2015, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Honestly guys, the biggest benefit for me of the nearfield sub is being able to listen to music at much lower levels while still getting the feel of the bass. Saves the ears, doesn't piss off the wife, etc. Love it.
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post #743 of 1598 Old 10-18-2015, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Well... one step closer to being pushed over the edge for a minidsp 88A with Dirac. My father in law recently bought a new AVR so he gave me back the Yamaha that I gave him many years ago. It's a RXV-595 that I bought in 99. I took a look at the back panel today and noticed that it has the 6 channel inupts for running dvd audio or whatever else so I tried it and sure enough you can use it as a separate amp. That means I wouldn't have to by any extra amplification if I buy the 88A, I could run my center and 4 surrounds with the Yamaha.

Next step.... making sure the Epson 8350 works ok and try to get 500ish out of it.
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post #744 of 1598 Old 10-18-2015, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Thanks for the comliments Sbuger!!

Jonathan covered it all, so not much to add...

As far as nearfield subs go, I like just having 1. Like you say, it can be localized a bit with having a nearfield sub to the side. Since most of the time I'm the only one in the room that cares about having the bass just perfect it doesn't matter that the other seats don't have their own near subs. So, if you are in the same boat then forget about having more than one. However, if you have other people that do care then I would go with 3 and have only the sub behind you on when you are by yourself.

I like sealed for nearfield for the reasons Jonathan stated + they are smaller so they are easier to fit behind your seat. I honestly haven't tried a ported sub nearfield, but I really don't care if it's more tactile/punchy/whatever because I have all I need with the single SI 18. I've experienced 2 nearfield Othorns, NOTHING is going to be punchier than that. Those subs can make you involuntarily blink your eyes and affect your breathing. As cool and fun as that is, I am still happy with the single 18 and don't find myself day dreaming about more output... yet...

So, yeah, I would say either SI or Dayton UM (or Dayton HO if they are still around) and then decide if you want 1 for your seat or 1 for each seat.
The Dayton HO's are still around, the model nicely in a significantly smaller enclosures than the UM's. Don't know why they have fallen out of favor since the release of the UM's, they are different tools for different jobs.

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post #745 of 1598 Old 10-18-2015, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post
The Dayton HO's are still around, the model nicely in a significantly smaller enclosures than the UM's. Don't know why they have fallen out of favor since the release of the UM's, they are different tools for different jobs.
Do they also do better in smaller enclosures than the SI's? If so that would be perfect for nearfield.
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post #746 of 1598 Old 10-18-2015, 11:30 AM
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They kind of fell out of favor because they were closer to the equivalent SPL output of the SI (actually less max output than the SI) and yet cost $100 more right? My guess is that most DIY'ers don't care too much about the small difference in the optimal sealed box sizes between the three subs, and are looking for the most output bang per dollar.


From data-bass.com -- SI 18HT can go louder than 18HO across the board.



They lose more ground to the UM18 - which are the same price. UM18 can go louder than HO18 across the board.



Last, UM18 compared to SI 18. UM18 can go louder than SI18HT across the board.




A local guy has a set of the HOs in dual opposed boxes. They are nice subs, and sound great too, and look great too, nothing wrong with that choice either if it becomes a preference for whatever reason.
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Archaea's 9.8.4 Home Theater Room
(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

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post #747 of 1598 Old 10-18-2015, 11:39 AM
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For some size does matter...not to much though around AVS. With the deep discount on the close-out SI HT drivers the cost differential is pretty significant.

The SI's won't be around much longer.

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post #748 of 1598 Old 10-18-2015, 11:51 AM
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EDIT: NEVERMIND - this CEA numbers I screenprinted show the HST18. not the 18HT. Followed up with a corrected screenprint after desertdome noticed my error.


Original post follows...


----


I need someone to interpret the CEA2010 numbers here as they relate to the max SPL burst charts above. These don't seem to jive. When looking at the CEA2010 numbers it appears the SI can produce more SPL at passing levels than the UM18-22 and HO. Is its simply that the UM18-22 can go louder if distortion is unlimited? If so then the SI 18HT might be the better driver still?

@Ricci, or @LTD02, or @Scott Simonian, can you explain this a bit?

FWIW, it also appears the HO can do it's business with quite a bit less power.


Thoughts?
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Last edited by Archaea; 10-18-2015 at 04:49 PM. Reason: clarified
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post #749 of 1598 Old 10-18-2015, 03:59 PM
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@Archaea
there are quite a few points to note.
1. the siht18 tested was a prototype an apparently the driver that you can actually buy has significantly different t/s parameters. not sure if power handling and xmax/xmech are different too. just a heads up.
2. some tests were performed with a the k10 amp and some with the k20.
3. the frequency response sweep test is using a sweep and is limited to either thermal compression or when the driver starts making bad noises in the test cab (mostly from excursion). this necessarily means that one region of the response will be limiting the whole thing. on the other hand, the cea numbers are generated with a shaped burst tone. this is not a very demanding done just a few cycles. the point is to really try to push the driver to excursion limits and see how it starts to come undone. it is tested one frequency at a time, increasing in level, until something gives out.
*** the ceo2010 tests ARE NOT meant to be an indicator of what you could expect running the subs *** anything near that power level sustained will cook them no question. most of those are roughly 4 ohm drivers. 150 volts into 4 ohms is ~5600 watts.
there really isn't a simple answer to the seemingly simple "what is the max output of the driver?" a combination of the measured tests along with modeled design is necessary for predicting what the max output of a driver/cab/amp are likely to do. [I know you know most of that, but I was just spelling it all out for completeness of thought.]

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post #750 of 1598 Old 10-18-2015, 04:03 PM
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The Stereo Integrity HTS-18D2 shown in the CEA2010 MAX Passing chart is a different driver than the Stereo Integrity HT18D2 you used for the CEA2010 MAX Burst graph.
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