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post #661 of 714 Old 08-21-2019, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Hi Brandon! Thanks for the confirmations. Much appreciated!


One followup question on screens. Seymour ScreenExcellence has a couple of new(ish) 4K screen materials, Enlightor-4K, (0.98 Gain), Enlightor-Bright, (1.1 Gain), and Enlightor-Neo, (No gain specified.) They're finer weaves with less visible porosity. They allow you to sit closer without any visibility of the screen surface. Do you think any of these would be an upgrade from the XD material? I'm particularly thinking of the Enlightor-Bright, but I need to find out more about the Neo also. I have a call in to Chris Seymour, and I'm waiting to hear back.

http://www.seymourscreenexcellence.c....pdf#zoom=100&


Thanks!



Craig
Well cross enlightor bright off your list because you already own it. Yea I said it. Enlightor bright is SSE's version of XD, just named differently for their custom line as opposed to installer line.

The enlightor 4k is a decent material but low enough gain I wouldn't recommend it. The new "Neo" is a good in between E4K and XD material that Chris would say specs to around .95 gain. IMO if you don't have issues where you sit now with seeing the weave, I'd stick with what you got and the most gain you can get from woven. If you are wanting to sit closer, or with the added brightness of the new PJ you begin to see some of the weave...only then would I suggest moving to another material. Even the slightest changes in gain make a big difference. In my case, going from a woven material that while marketed as 1.0 gain actually benched out to around .8 gain (not seymour btw), to a Microperf 1.3 gain which in actuality is more of a 1.1 gain, the difference was staggering. Im sure someone more mathematically inclined than myself could calculate out the exact % of brightness I gained (pun intended), but I'm betting between the material and the uh380 I nearly doubled my on-screen brightness.

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post #662 of 714 Old 08-21-2019, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Well cross enlightor bright off your list because you already own it. Yea I said it. Enlightor bright is SSE's version of XD, just named differently for their custom line as opposed to installer line.

The enlightor 4k is a decent material but low enough gain I wouldn't recommend it. The new "Neo" is a good in between E4K and XD material that Chris would say specs to around .95 gain. IMO if you don't have issues where you sit now with seeing the weave, I'd stick with what you got and the most gain you can get from woven. If you are wanting to sit closer, or with the added brightness of the new PJ you begin to see some of the weave...only then would I suggest moving to another material. Even the slightest changes in gain make a big difference. In my case, going from a woven material that while marketed as 1.0 gain actually benched out to around .8 gain (not seymour btw), to a Microperf 1.3 gain which in actuality is more of a 1.1 gain, the difference was staggering. Im sure someone more mathematically inclined than myself could calculate out the exact % of brightness I gained (pun intended), but I'm betting between the material and the uh380 I nearly doubled my on-screen brightness.
Thanks again! I just got off the phone with Jon Kaisand at Seymour and he basically confirmed everything you said. I'm sticking with the XD screen! The Lumagen will be the next decision, but I'll get the pj first and see how it looks with my current screen and lens.

In actuality, I have no problem with the brightness of the image I get now with my old RS-55 pj, and it was only 1,200 lumens, and calibrated it was well less than that. I have no doubt the RS2000 will be a significant upgrade from that!


Craig


Edit: Chuck, sorry for using your thread to sort my issues, but some of the smartest guys on the forum stop in here frequently.

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post #663 of 714 Old 08-21-2019, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
In actuality, I have no problem with the brightness of the image I get now with my old RS-55 pj, and it was only 1,200 lumens, and calibrated it was well less than that. I have no doubt the RS2000 will be a significant upgrade from that!
I first went from the RS55 to the RS500 and it was a huge improvement. Then I went from the RS500 to my current PJ and was blown away. Even my wife could not help but notice the huge improvement. Your 2000 will be VERY close to my RS4500 image and coming from a much older technology. Not only will it be brighter, but the image will be much more crisp

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Edit: Chuck, sorry for using your thread to sort my issues, but some of the smartest guys on the forum stop in here frequently.
Not an issue. AVS is all about sharing experiences and learning from one another. This is as good a place as any!!
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post #664 of 714 Old 11-01-2019, 05:23 PM
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Very nice build!!

Is there any picture showing rear subs setup?

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post #665 of 714 Old 11-01-2019, 08:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Very nice build!!

Is there any picture showing rear subs setup?

Go HERE
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post #666 of 714 Old 11-09-2019, 07:59 AM
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I see that you many years ago had moved from a Sony VPL600 to the new JVC. I am contemplating the same move and am very concerned about fan noise from the projector. The distance from my head to my projector is about the same as yours and I can BARELY hear the Sony at low fan while a movie is playing. What is your experience making the upgrade? How much louder is the JVC? Do you find the increase in noise objectionable?

Thanks for your reply, your theater truly deserves to be the “theater of the month”

Christian
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post #667 of 714 Old 11-10-2019, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I see that you many years ago had moved from a Sony VPL600 to the new JVC. I am contemplating the same move and am very concerned about fan noise from the projector. The distance from my head to my projector is about the same as yours and I can BARELY hear the Sony at low fan while a movie is playing. What is your experience making the upgrade? How much louder is the JVC? Do you find the increase in noise objectionable?

Thanks for your reply, your theater truly deserves to be the “theater of the month”

Christian

Thank you for the kind words.

I've had two RS4500's (the first one failed) and I don't remember the fan being this loud - and I also don't recall the fan on this one being that loud when I first got it. It could be I have a faulty fan. I have a friend who just got the RS2000 and it is not as noisy as mine. I will tell you that if you get a RS4500 KEEP THE ROOM COOL and you won't have as much noise. I am not aware of many other RS4500 users who complain about fan noise.
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post #668 of 714 Old 02-20-2020, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I have posted some of this elsewhere but not on this thread.

1. I have decided to take my speaker count up a large notch and will be moving from a 9.x.6 configuration to an 11.x.10 configuration. And in order to accomplish that,

2. I have ordered the Altitude 32-24 to be able to handle the increased speaker count

3. I have ordered an additional ATI 6 channel amp to handle the additional speakers

4. I am have ordered 3 Triad InRoom Bronze Center speakers that will be installed horizontally for use as my front heights, and 2 Triad OnWall Bronze LCRs that will be used for my second row Side Surrounds and another RSL C34E as my VOG speaker (to match the other 6 current height speakers). And while none of the Triad speakers will match "perfectly" the other Triads I already have installed, I will PEQ them and the other existing surround Triads prior to running Optimizer to insure that the pre Optimized response is IDENTICAL for all of the speakers. Then I am confident that given their location and use, I will not be able to hear any important differences (or more likely, any differences) between these and my existing speakers.

5. I have my Trinnov Altitude 16 for sale and will include all travel expenses and time for on site calibration as one option for purchasing the Altitude.

6. I have committed to never again commit to no more upgrades.

7. I have also ordered 2 very inexpensive bar tables to be used as a "2nd row" and 4 bar stools that will go with them. I will probably have a new top built to cover over the very inexpensive MDF top to make it look a bit less cheezy.

The idea for the bar vs a new row of seating (which was never actively under consideration) came after I saw someone else who had done that on one of the AVS theaters. That, then, prompted the idea of adding another set of surrounds for that row. Furthermore, I am getting ready to have the back of my rack cleaned up (a complete wiring spaghetti mess) and wanted to simplify the equipment connections, so getting rid of the miniDSP was an option. But given I am out of channels on the A16, I would need 2 more for the rear surrounds and 1 more to handle the LFE duties. Lastly, Trinnov has released DTS: Pro (no charge) which can use up to 30 channels. In fact, Neural X has been upgraded so that when upmixing DTS:X or DTS, the upmixer will use all of those channels as well. So since the next upgrade on the Trinnov goes to 24 channels, I decided to make use of more of the channels and, after some investigation, decided on adding the VOG speaker and three front heights, in addition to the second set of side surrounds. Between Atmos, DTS:X and AuroMatic, all of the new speakers will be used.

As a result of all of the above, I will be investigating moving the door to the equipment room into the corner so that I could then slide my L&R back closer to the front wall. This will allow me to move the first row forward (without having the L&R speakers sitting in your face) and make room for the bar and attendant seating. I am currently about 13.5 feet from the screen and moving the seating forward. I don't know if this will work or not as I have not done the calculations on how everything will fit.




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post #669 of 714 Old 02-21-2020, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I have posted some of this elsewhere but not on this thread.

1. I have decided to take my speaker count up a large notch and will be moving from a 9.x.6 configuration to an 11.x.10 configuration. And in order to accomplish that,

2. I have ordered the Altitude 32-24 to be able to handle the increased speaker count

3. I have ordered an additional ATI 6 channel amp to handle the additional speakers

4. I am have ordered 3 Triad InRoom Bronze Center speakers that will be installed horizontally for use as my front heights, and 2 Triad OnWall Bronze LCRs that will be used for my second row Side Surrounds and another RSL C34E as my VOG speaker (to match the other 6 current height speakers). And while none of the Triad speakers will match "perfectly" the other Triads I already have installed, I will PEQ them and the other existing surround Triads prior to running Optimizer to insure that the pre Optimized response is IDENTICAL for all of the speakers. Then I am confident that given their location and use, I will not be able to hear any important differences (or more likely, any differences) between these and my existing speakers.

5. I have my Trinnov Altitude 16 for sale and will include all travel expenses and time for on site calibration as one option for purchasing the Altitude.

6. I have committed to never again commit to no more upgrades.

7. I have also ordered 2 very inexpensive bar tables to be used as a "2nd row" and 4 bar stools that will go with them. I will probably have a new top built to cover over the very inexpensive MDF top to make it look a bit less cheezy.

The idea for the bar vs a new row of seating (which was never actively under consideration) came after I saw someone else who had done that on one of the AVS theaters. That, then, prompted the idea of adding another set of surrounds for that row. Furthermore, I am getting ready to have the back of my rack cleaned up (a complete wiring spaghetti mess) and wanted to simplify the equipment connections, so getting rid of the miniDSP was an option. But given I am out of channels on the A16, I would need 2 more for the rear surrounds and 1 more to handle the LFE duties. Lastly, Trinnov has released DTS: Pro (no charge) which can use up to 30 channels. In fact, Neural X has been upgraded so that when upmixing DTS:X or DTS, the upmixer will use all of those channels as well. So since the next upgrade on the Trinnov goes to 24 channels, I decided to make use of more of the channels and, after some investigation, decided on adding the VOG speaker and three front heights, in addition to the second set of side surrounds. Between Atmos, DTS:X and AuroMatic, all of the new speakers will be used.

As a result of all of the above, I will be investigating moving the door to the equipment room into the corner so that I could then slide my L&R back closer to the front wall. This will allow me to move the first row forward (without having the L&R speakers sitting in your face) and make room for the bar and attendant seating. I am currently about 13.5 feet from the screen and moving the seating forward. I don't know if this will work or not as I have not done the calculations on how everything will fit.




THAT NUMBER 6!!!!!!

Looking forward to how this all plays out!
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post #670 of 714 Old 02-21-2020, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I have posted some of this elsewhere but not on this thread.

1. I have decided to take my speaker count up a large notch and will be moving from a 9.x.6 configuration to an 11.x.10 configuration. And in order to accomplish that,

2. I have ordered the Altitude 32-24 to be able to handle the increased speaker count

3. I have ordered an additional ATI 6 channel amp to handle the additional speakers

4. I am have ordered 3 Triad InRoom Bronze Center speakers that will be installed horizontally for use as my front heights, and 2 Triad OnWall Bronze LCRs that will be used for my second row Side Surrounds and another RSL C34E as my VOG speaker (to match the other 6 current height speakers). And while none of the Triad speakers will match "perfectly" the other Triads I already have installed, I will PEQ them and the other existing surround Triads prior to running Optimizer to insure that the pre Optimized response is IDENTICAL for all of the speakers. Then I am confident that given their location and use, I will not be able to hear any important differences (or more likely, any differences) between these and my existing speakers.

5. I have my Trinnov Altitude 16 for sale and will include all travel expenses and time for on site calibration as one option for purchasing the Altitude.

6. I have committed to never again commit to no more upgrades.




Chuck,

Best wishes on all the New Changes & Up-Dates your going to be doing.
It should be really-really interesting to read what you think after all is completed and finally calibrated to your liking.

Terry
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post #671 of 714 Old 02-21-2020, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I have posted some of this elsewhere but not on this thread.

1. I have decided to take my speaker count up a large notch and will be moving from a 9.x.6 configuration to an 11.x.10 configuration. And in order to accomplish that,

2. I have ordered the Altitude 32-24 to be able to handle the increased speaker count

3. I have ordered an additional ATI 6 channel amp to handle the additional speakers

4. I am have ordered 3 Triad InRoom Bronze Center speakers that will be installed horizontally for use as my front heights, and 2 Triad OnWall Bronze LCRs that will be used for my second row Side Surrounds and another RSL C34E as my VOG speaker (to match the other 6 current height speakers). And while none of the Triad speakers will match "perfectly" the other Triads I already have installed, I will PEQ them and the other existing surround Triads prior to running Optimizer to insure that the pre Optimized response is IDENTICAL for all of the speakers. Then I am confident that given their location and use, I will not be able to hear any important differences (or more likely, any differences) between these and my existing speakers.

5. I have my Trinnov Altitude 16 for sale and will include all travel expenses and time for on site calibration as one option for purchasing the Altitude.

6. I have committed to never again commit to no more upgrades.

7. I have also ordered 2 very inexpensive bar tables to be used as a "2nd row" and 4 bar stools that will go with them. I will probably have a new top built to cover over the very inexpensive MDF top to make it look a bit less cheezy.

The idea for the bar vs a new row of seating (which was never actively under consideration) came after I saw someone else who had done that on one of the AVS theaters. That, then, prompted the idea of adding another set of surrounds for that row. Furthermore, I am getting ready to have the back of my rack cleaned up (a complete wiring spaghetti mess) and wanted to simplify the equipment connections, so getting rid of the miniDSP was an option. But given I am out of channels on the A16, I would need 2 more for the rear surrounds and 1 more to handle the LFE duties. Lastly, Trinnov has released DTS: Pro (no charge) which can use up to 30 channels. In fact, Neural X has been upgraded so that when upmixing DTS:X or DTS, the upmixer will use all of those channels as well. So since the next upgrade on the Trinnov goes to 24 channels, I decided to make use of more of the channels and, after some investigation, decided on adding the VOG speaker and three front heights, in addition to the second set of side surrounds. Between Atmos, DTS:X and AuroMatic, all of the new speakers will be used.

As a result of all of the above, I will be investigating moving the door to the equipment room into the corner so that I could then slide my L&R back closer to the front wall. This will allow me to move the first row forward (without having the L&R speakers sitting in your face) and make room for the bar and attendant seating. I am currently about 13.5 feet from the screen and moving the seating forward. I don't know if this will work or not as I have not done the calculations on how everything will fit.
I am officially retiring June 30th, 2020. I am officially inviting myself to come hear your upgrades at some point shortly after that.



6. I have committed to never again commit to no more upgrades.

How many decades did it take to figure this out??? (Sorry, just couldn't pass that up!)
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post #672 of 714 Old 02-21-2020, 04:21 PM - Thread Starter
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I am officially retiring June 30th, 2020. I am officially inviting myself to come hear your upgrades at some point shortly after that.



6. I have committed to never again commit to no more upgrades.

How many decades did it take to figure this out??? (Sorry, just couldn't pass that up!)
Good for you. Retirement is a great way to spend your hard earned money. And, of course, you always are welcome to come visit.

I really did believe that I was DONE. And the scary thing is, I'm not sure how much sonic benefit I am going to get as a result of this upgrade. And while I think I'm REALLY done this time, it is even clear to me (after uttering that phrase way too many times) that, apparently, I will never be done. I can't imagine what changes/upgrades I might make, but the I could not imagine doing this current set of changes.

As for adding any more speakers, I'm not sure where I would put them. But, again, who knows.

I am really excited about your retirement news. It is well deserved, I am sure, and it is a great way to spend our senior years!!
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post #673 of 714 Old 03-03-2020, 07:06 PM
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@audioguy , very nice room and set-up. I was linked to your thread today by another fellow AVS'er. I can see that without personal restraint, it may be an expensive visit.

In all seriousness, the conversation has been helpful and has me re-thinking about the upgrades I would like to do.
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post #674 of 714 Old 03-04-2020, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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@audioguy , very nice room and set-up. I was linked to your thread today by another fellow AVS'er. I can see that without personal restraint, it may be an expensive visit.

In all seriousness, the conversation has been helpful and has me re-thinking about the upgrades I would like to do.
Thanks for stopping by and the nice complements. This can be a very addictive hobby and self restraint can be difficult.

I don't know what upgrades you are considering but I will tell you what I tell every client I have: After selecting your speakers (lots of great and "reasonably priced" options - but some are better than others), make sure they are properly placed. Then make sure the room is "properly treated". And that doesn't mean a few absorptive panels scattered around the room. There really is a science behind it and there are great resources to help make the right choices - like GIK). Proper passive room treatment is critical to achieving optimum performance. I have been in hundreds of rooms doing calibration over the last 30 years and without exception, the better the room treatment, the better the audio performance. I am also very prejudiced on this subject, but if you are not there yet, look toward a processor that uses Dirac for room correction. FAR better than Audyssey or any of the other choices (except Trinnov's Room Optimizer but the cost to do that is REALLY high). And make sure who ever does your audio calibration (you or someone else) knows how to use the external measuring tools (e.g. REW or OmniMIc) to extract the very best out of your room and equipment.

Sorry for the sermon but I am passionate about this hobby and sometimes get a bit carried away.
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post #675 of 714 Old 03-04-2020, 09:13 AM
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@audioguy Nice room! You definitely have some valuable input and I admire your pursuit. Just curious, I seen you and others with high end gear using the C34E ceiling speakers. You obviously can use whatever you want in that position. What makes them so special?
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post #676 of 714 Old 03-04-2020, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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@audioguy Nice room! You definitely have some valuable input and I admire your pursuit. Just curious, I seen you and others with high end gear using the C34E ceiling speakers. You obviously can use whatever you want in that position. What makes them so special?

I first had some on-ceiling speakers and while I had them, I was able to play just the sounds coming from them (muted all other channels). What I learned was that dispersion pattern was critical, but power handling nor super high efficiency was important and they sure didn't need to be the most accurate speaker on the planet, nor do they need to be by the same manufacturer as other room speakers nor is "timbre matching" critical (room EQ will get them more than close enough). Their typical output is 10db to 20db less than the surrounds. And I am not interested in spending more money than necessary to get the job done. All of that told me I had lots of options (uniform dispersion was the most critical).

When I installed the C34E's, I played two channel music through them and they sounded excellent. And as a height speaker in a 3D audio install, they more than meet the requirements. At an MSRP level, I have about $50,000 in speakers in my room - and the $750 I have invested in the C34E's has no problem keeping up. I'm sure there are LOTS of other options, but at $125 each shipped, why pay more??
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post #677 of 714 Old 03-04-2020, 11:54 AM
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Thanks so much for the in depth response! All the reason I would need. 😎
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post #678 of 714 Old 03-04-2020, 12:03 PM
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Thanks so much for the in depth response! All the reason I would need. 😎
I too have the RSL C34e's for my Atmos Height speakers in my theater, and I have the same main and surround speakers, (Triad Platinums and Silver Monitors), as audioguy. If you would like to see a graphical description of his explanation, I posted some graphs in this post:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-ge...l#post59296984

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post #679 of 714 Old 03-04-2020, 12:50 PM
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@craig john Very informative post! Thanks for chiming in.
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post #680 of 714 Old 03-04-2020, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
I too have the RSL C34e's for my Atmos Height speakers in my theater, and I have the same main and surround speakers, (Triad Platinums and Silver Monitors), as audioguy. If you would like to see a graphical description of his explanation, I posted some graphs in this post:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-ge...l#post59296984

Craig
Can you explain more about how you took those measurements?

If you set your ceiling speakers to Small, and had subs turned off, then the Bass Management in your AVR would roll off anything below whatever the crossover point was set to. And even if you had temporarily set them to Large, turning off Bass Management, those speakers would probably measure something similar anyway, since they will start to roll off quite a bit before their specified 70Hz lower frequency.

Dolby specifies that all speakers should be capable of full range. Because of that, I've started to notice commercial cinemas are using additional subwoofers placed in the ceiling and using Bass Management.

The only way to know for sure exactly what is going on would be to measure the output from your AVR, with all speakers set to Large (no Bass Management). I suspect you'd find something very different. If I wasn't on the road, I'd set that up right now and measure. If I have time next week, I'll mock that up during a calibration and measure some content.

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post #681 of 714 Old 03-04-2020, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
Dolby specifies that all speakers should be capable of full range.

I'm confused about that. Not a single speaker in my room is full range. In fact, with one exception, every theater I have been in has not had any full range speakers. The Triad Platinum LCRs maybe go to 60Hz (on a good day). That is why I thought bass management existed - to provide the bottom end to all speakers as necessary. Heck, even when I had Dunlavy SC-VIs which went below 20Hz, I still used bass management when watching movies !

What am I missing here?

And my bet is that Craig probably may have had bass management on when he measured the output of his RSL height speakers. I use to have some raw measurements of those speakers as they were mounted in my ceiling but can not locate them. But that really doesn't take away any other of his arguments and bass management solves that one. But I may certainly be missing something here

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post #682 of 714 Old 03-04-2020, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I'm confused about that. Not a single speaker in my room is full range. In fact, with one exception, every theater I have been in has not had any full range speakers. The Triad Platinum LCRs maybe go to 60Hz (on a good day). That is why I thought bass management existed - to provide the bottom end to all speakers as necessary. Heck, even when I had Dunlavy SC-VIs which went below 20Hz, I still used bass management when watching movies !

What am I missing here?

And my bet is that Craig probably had bass management on when he measured the output of his RSL height speakers. But that really doesn't take away any other of his arguments and bass management solves that one. But I may certainly be missing something here
Commercial Cinemas recommendations. Using Bass Management lets them hang smaller speakers overhead, instead of 20 or so much more expensive speakers! Previously, Bass Management was something many commercial cinema techs were unfamiliar with.

Although anecdotal, based on my personal experiences in a hundred immersive audio cinemas, I prefer a bigger speaker all around. I've worked on quite a few retro-fit projects where the ceiling speakers were limited in size, and had to be rolled off around 90Hz-100Hz. Sure, Bass Management can "solve" that, but it just doesn't sound the same. i'd rather have the flexibility to adjust my crossover for Bass Management on what I hear and measure, and not dictated by a speaker choice.

I'm NOT suggesting that every one buys speakers capable of playing down to 40Hz. I'm disagreeing with the comments telling people that it just doesn't matter, and to spend as little as possible. And I'm disagreeing with the methodology Craig used to come up with those.

It does matter.
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post #683 of 714 Old 03-04-2020, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by appelz View Post
Commercial Cinemas recommendations. Using Bass Management lets them hang smaller speakers overhead, instead of 20 or so much more expensive speakers! Previously, Bass Management was something many commercial cinema techs were unfamiliar with.

Although anecdotal, based on my personal experiences in a hundred immersive audio cinemas, I prefer a bigger speaker all around. I've worked on quite a few retro-fit projects where the ceiling speakers were limited in size, and had to be rolled off around 90Hz-100Hz. Sure, Bass Management can "solve" that, but it just doesn't sound the same. i'd rather have the flexibility to adjust my crossover for Bass Management on what I hear and measure, and not dictated by a speaker choice.

I'm NOT suggesting that every one buys speakers capable of playing down to 40Hz. I'm disagreeing with the comments telling people that it just doesn't matter, and to spend as little as possible. And I'm disagreeing with the methodology Craig used to come up with those.

It does matter.
You may have missed where I said:
"This second graph is the Atmos speakers in isolation, (no subwoofers, but the overhead speakers reset with a 40 Hz crossover):"

I don't have the equipment to measure the spectral content of the pre/pro outputs for the overhead speakers. I can only measure what I can measure with a microphone. The content I measured was from the 2018 Dolby Atmos Demo Disc and it was Dolby's proprietary content that I measured. If there was ever going to be bass content in the Overhead outputs, you would think Dolby would put it there.

And I NEVER said "spend as little as possible." I just don't think it's necessary to spend $16,000 on speakers and $26,000 overall just to add Atmos. In a Home theater environment... and with the capabilities of Bass Management, it's just not necessary. I also disagree that a Bass Managed, satellite/subwoofer(s) system doesn't sound the same as a speaker system with full range speakers in all positions. The assumption is that the full range speakers can be placed where they need to be placed AND that those placements will also yield acceptable bass response. I have rarely seen that to be the case. Properly placed and Bass Managed subwoofers offer a far greater opportunity to optimize the bass response.

Still, the speakers in question, Triad Gold Mini-Monitors, are small sealed 2-way's with an F3 of 55 Hz. They don't have much more bass response than the RSL C34e's. Tigerhonacker will be upgrading to 4 large SVS subwoofers. He'll be using Bass Management. There is no reason, even if there is some bass in the Overheads, to spend that kind of money on Overhead speakers, at least IMO.

Nonetheless, I'll be very interested to see what you find when you measure the spectral content of the Atmos Overheads. I await your measurements.

Craig

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post #684 of 714 Old 03-05-2020, 06:00 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm NOT suggesting that every one buys speakers capable of playing down to 40Hz. I'm disagreeing with the comments telling people that it just doesn't matter, and to spend as little as possible. And I'm disagreeing with the methodology Craig used to come up with those.

It does matter.
As for buying speakers that are capable down to 40Hz or 60Hz or 80hz, power handling, frequency extension, and, of course, budget must be taken into consideration. My Surrounds and Wides (Triad In-Room Silver Speakers) were purchased (MSRP $2000 each) since they have the identical mid range and tweeter as my Platinum LCRs. And their "advertised" anechoic response is on the order of 80Hz if I recall correctly. I initially set the crossover to just a tad above 80Hz. But, when my finger gets a bit aggressive on the volume button on a movie with an already aggressive sound track, those speakers would make sounds that were not on the soundtrack - clearly being over driven. So I now have them crossed over around 120Hz. So given the role they play (surrounds), the fact that they match my LCRs and the use of Bass Management, I'm confused why the use of some other speaker that indeed could play lower, would be of any substantive benefit. And what other Triad speaker would meet those requirements?

You have been in a gazillion times the number of rooms I have so I really am curious about the sonic value about your position on this matter, and specifically when it comes to height speakers. I would not argue your position as it would relate LCRs. I most certainly get that. And maybe even for surrounds. But for height speakers (which is the basis for this discussion), I just really don't understand.

While I have not measured the in-use frequency response of my heights (or those in other rooms I have been in), I have done the experiment that Craig referred to (listening only to the height speakers) and the value of the use of higher performance speakers escapes me. Some of the height speakers in the room I have been in cost close to $1000 each and some cost way less. The more expensive speakers (and usually with better specs) sound pretty much the same as the lesser expensive ones.

"Spend as little as possible" I did not say exactly that but I did say the equivalent and stand by that statement. If X dollars meets the needs of the application, why spend 2X or, as in Terry's case, 20X?

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post #685 of 714 Old 03-06-2020, 09:03 AM
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Have you received your Altitude32? Now may be the best time to compare the "sonic differences" that some have been reporting between the Altitude16 and the Altitude32.
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post #686 of 714 Old 03-06-2020, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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@audioguy

Have you received your Altitude32? Now may be the best time to compare the "sonic differences" that some have been reporting between the Altitude16 and the Altitude32.
Not necessary to compare. Trinnov says the ONLY difference between the two are at the A32 processes up to 24/192 and the A16 processes up to 24/96. If anyone says they hear a difference, then the method they used for comparison was flawed. Not a project I have interest in wasting time on!!
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post #687 of 714 Old 03-07-2020, 07:56 PM
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You may have missed where I said:
"This second graph is the Atmos speakers in isolation, (no subwoofers, but the overhead speakers reset with a 40 Hz crossover):"

I don't have the equipment to measure the spectral content of the pre/pro outputs for the overhead speakers. I can only measure what I can measure with a microphone. The content I measured was from the 2018 Dolby Atmos Demo Disc and it was Dolby's proprietary content that I measured. If there was ever going to be bass content in the Overhead outputs, you would think Dolby would put it there.

And I NEVER said "spend as little as possible." I just don't think it's necessary to spend $16,000 on speakers and $26,000 overall just to add Atmos. In a Home theater environment... and with the capabilities of Bass Management, it's just not necessary. I also disagree that a Bass Managed, satellite/subwoofer(s) system doesn't sound the same as a speaker system with full range speakers in all positions. The assumption is that the full range speakers can be placed where they need to be placed AND that those placements will also yield acceptable bass response. I have rarely seen that to be the case. Properly placed and Bass Managed subwoofers offer a far greater opportunity to optimize the bass response.

Still, the speakers in question, Triad Gold Mini-Monitors, are small sealed 2-way's with an F3 of 55 Hz. They don't have much more bass response than the RSL C34e's. Tigerhonacker will be upgrading to 4 large SVS subwoofers. He'll be using Bass Management. There is no reason, even if there is some bass in the Overheads, to spend that kind of money on Overhead speakers, at least IMO.

Nonetheless, I'll be very interested to see what you find when you measure the spectral content of the Atmos Overheads. I await your measurements.

Craig
My apologies. I did miss that you changed the crossovers for your second measurements. Good work.

I didn't intend to imply that you stated "spend as little as possible', but that is a trend that I am starting to see, and your measurements and posts certainly encourage that line of thinking.

As far as subwoofers go, and the lowest two octaves..I calibrate cinemas for a living, so I certainly agree that subwoofer placement is critical, main speakers will rarely be in the correct positions etc. That isn't what I'm talking about. If the spectral content for surrounds and overheads is full range (and hopefully I will have time to measure that this coming week), then having more capable speakers overhead is certainly justified. You yourself own Triad Platinum LCR's for your mains. If Bass Management is such a panacea, then how do you justify that expense? Audioguy is crossing his overheads at ~120Hz, so he can play them loud enough without distortion. That seems like an additional very legitimate reason to spend more on overheads. In general, a bigger speaker will have better power handling.

When 5.1 and 7.1 content first became common in home theaters, I recall the same ideas be passed around. And perhaps on early content, it was justified. It certainly isn't now. History repeats, and the same thought process comes back regarding overheads.

Consider an actor with a powerful deep voice. Sean Connery, James Earl Jones, George Clooney even in Gravity. His voice is commonly heard in surrounds and overheads in Gravity. I'd prefer all of his voice to come from those speakers, and not have the deeper resonance routed to subwoofers. It just doesn't sound right to our ears/brain. Even more so for multi-channel music. It is difficult enough to integrate subs with mains properly and they are in the same 2D plane. My experience in hundreds of private cinemas tells me it just doesn't sound the same.

Of course we always have to take into consideration budget and design constraints. But that doesn't keep me from educating clients and recommending the best solution, and if compromises have to be made, at least they are based on purely those constraints. But again, my experience in rooms with everything from small custom Triad speakers designed to fit into small soffits up to large Procella and JBL speakers has me convinced that when budget and design allow, go big.
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post #688 of 714 Old 03-08-2020, 06:16 AM - Thread Starter
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But again, my experience in rooms with everything from small custom Triad speakers designed to fit into small soffits up to large Procella and JBL speakers has me convinced that when budget and design allow, go big.
100% agree (at least for LCRs and all surrounds).

In the case of my Triads, I could have used Triad Gold LCRs for my surrounds to get more power handling and extension - but I can't recall if the tweeter/mid-range are the same drivers that are in the Plats (but the drivers in my in-room silvers do match). Or, I could have just blown it out and put in-wall Plats all the way around.

I am still struggling with the idea of needing larger ceiling speakers but when I have some time, I will do some listening. It won't change what I am doing in my room but if I decide it makes more sense to do so, I will certainly recommend it to others.

Actually, if I were starting again, it would not be Traid. After hearing Wisdom at a CEDIA a few years ago and currently assisting someone who is filling his room with them, it would Wisdoms. The purity in those speakers is truly off the charts. There is so much to love about them.
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post #689 of 714 Old 03-08-2020, 02:57 PM
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100% agree (at least for LCRs and all surrounds).
So why the difference in opinion between surrounds and overheads? For any Immersive Audio content, the same object/content can be routed through any speaker...fronts, sides, rears, overhead.

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post #690 of 714 Old 03-08-2020, 04:08 PM - Thread Starter
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So why the difference in opinion between surrounds and overheads? For any Immersive Audio content, the same object/content can be routed through any speaker...fronts, sides, rears, overhead.
I have not done the comparison (but will) but at an estimated 10dB to 20dB lower volume than other channels (based upon when I listened to just the heights), at least to my old ears, differences in potential quality are much more difficult to ascertain. That, and the actual content of the height speakers and the ~10 rooms I have been in all told me that my supposition was correct.

Once you get your lab up and running, I would love to drive to Nashville (consider me having just invited me to your lab), bring 4 of the RSL speakers or have them shipped directly to you (they have a 30 day trial period), and see if we can setup a reasonably fair direct comparison using them and something you might have that you would deem more appropriate. If you turn out to be correct (and hence, me not correct), and the better height speakers don't cost a bazillion dollars, change my position on the matter. Blind testing has always been my preferred method of comparing products. ALL of my evaluations on this subject have been 100% subjective. After I installed my current height speakers, I set the front two as a stereo pair and utilizing bass management, listened to music - a lot of it. The physical height of the speakers notwithstanding, they sounded fabulous - and I played them at reasonably loud levels (MUCH louder than they are played reproducing the Atmos portion of a movie soundtrack).

But, I am open to being proven wrong - and admitting it.
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