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post #691 of 711 Old 03-08-2020, 05:35 PM
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So why the difference in opinion between surrounds and overheads? For any Immersive Audio content, the same object/content can be routed through any speaker...fronts, sides, rears, overhead.
While an object can surely be positioned anywhere in the Atmos system, it will not be the most taxing condition. Dolby's own cinema speaker requirements are relaxed by 3 dB in the surrounds/heights, 102 dB vs 105 dB for screen channels.

I suspect this is aids in ensuring the 5.1 and 7.1 cinema release derivations are able to be created with less peak limiting. Cinema 5.1 and 7.1 structurally have 3 dB less SPL capability than the L/C/R. While Atmos systems are not constrained in the same way (all channels are created equal), preventing the surround/height objects from hitting 105 dB is just good practice, if not enforced practice.

I know 3 dB is not much to get excited about, but it is half-power.

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post #692 of 711 Old 03-11-2020, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Two years ago, I made lots of equipment changes and totally messed up my wiring management. I kept delaying the re-do (It took me about 60 hours the first time) but finally decide to get it cleaned up - but pay to have it done.

This is what it looked like after I cleaned it up about 2 years ago.




Here is what it looked like on Monday morning:





And here is what it looks like now (Thanks to Atlanta Home Theater)


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post #693 of 711 Old 03-12-2020, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
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5 of the 6 speakers necessary to get me to 11.x.10


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post #694 of 711 Old 03-13-2020, 10:54 AM
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5 of the 6 speakers necessary to get me to 11.x.10


Chuck,

Your the Man !!!


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post #695 of 711 Old 03-13-2020, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Modifying one of my "GIK Super Traps with Scatter Plate" to fit over the new side surround speakers (Triad Bronze On-Wall LCRs). A portion of the Scatter Plate has been removed and the entire panel will be recovered.


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post #696 of 711 Old 03-16-2020, 07:34 AM
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Let me explain what was done with acoustic treatment: The screen wall has 2 inches of absorptive material behind the screen (since the screen is AT);

The side wall first reflection point use 3 GIK q7D's on each side. These are also used in the center of the rear wall (3) surrounded by Monster Traps with Scatter Plates (2)



We use Monster Traps with Scatter Plates on the rear wall (2) as well as three each on each rear side wall:



In each of the front two corners we use what GIK calls Soffit Traps which are 17" x 17" x whatever length needed:



On the ceiling we have four 244 Bass Panels which are suspended about 5 inches.

And lastly we built soffit bass traps into all wall ceiling intersections stuffed with fiberglass from Home Depot.

It is still a bit early to decide but it may be just a tad too dry for my taste but I will live with it for several months before I decide if it is an issue. GIK also plans to make a visit once everything is dialed in.
Very nice theater - congrats!
Curious to the design choice to have Q7Ds on first reflection points. Did GIK mention anything about why that was done?

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post #697 of 711 Old 03-16-2020, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Very nice theater - congrats!
Curious to the design choice to have Q7Ds on first reflection points. Did GIK mention anything about why that was done?
Thank you.

Yes. I still use the theater for listening to music which is why my L&R speakers are in the room. GIK felt, and I agree, that diffusion was the far better solution. If I were ONLY using the theater for movies, I would still ONLY use diffusion for the first reflection points. The only place where there is 100% absorption is on the screen wall. Everything else is a combination of absorption and diffusion/reflection.
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post #698 of 711 Old 03-21-2020, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
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Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post
Very nice theater - congrats!
Curious to the design choice to have Q7Ds on first reflection points. Did GIK mention anything about why that was done?
Thank you.

Yes. I still use the theater for listening to music which is why my L&R speakers are in the room. GIK felt, and I agree, that diffusion was the far better solution. If I were ONLY using the theater for movies, I would still ONLY use diffusion for the first reflection points. The only place where there is 100% absorption is on the screen wall. Everything else is a combination of absorption and diffusion/reflection.
Thanks! I have not tried true diffusion at first reflections, but I am using BAD Panels which is both absorb and gentle diffusion. (Same as GIK Alpha's).

I have thought about trying diffusion but I fear the imaging/focus of the soundstage will suffer.

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post #699 of 711 Old 03-21-2020, 05:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks! I have not tried true diffusion at first reflections, but I am using BAD Panels which is both absorb and gentle diffusion. (Same as GIK Alpha's).

I have thought about trying diffusion but I fear the imaging/focus of the soundstage will suffer.

I am familiar with the BAD panels from RPG as I had them in my previous home but had to leave them as part of the home sale. They worked great. Diffusion at the first reflection improves soundstage and does nothing to hurt imaging but if you already are using BAD panels, keep them.
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post #700 of 711 Old 03-24-2020, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Finally have all of the speakers installed and have re-calibrated the room - so am now running 11.x.10. No real improvement when up-sampling 2 channel music over my previous 9.x.6. But for movies that were mastered to take advantage of lots of speakers (e.g. Gravity and Hurricane Heist), it really is amazing. As I stated elsewhere, it is not the same kind of improvement as when moving from 7.1 to 7.x.4, but it is improvement nonetheless. And of course, DTS:X Pro now takes advantage of all 21 speakers (plus subs) in my room. My room definitely sounds better than ever. And really glad I made this upgrade.
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post #701 of 711 Old 03-24-2020, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Finally have all of the speakers installed and have re-calibrated the room - so am now running 11.x.10. No real improvement when up-sampling 2 channel music over my previous 9.x.6. But for movies that were mastered to take advantage of lots of speakers (e.g. Gravity and Hurricane Heist), it really is amazing. As I stated elsewhere, it is not the same kind of improvement as when moving from 7.1 to 7.x.4, but it is improvement nonetheless. And of course, DTS:X Pro now takes advantage of all 21 speakers (plus subs) in my room. My room definitely sounds better than ever. And really glad I made this upgrade.
Amazing news!

Want to know your opinion regarding the new added speakers, are they in general less important than the main 7 channels as they will be mostly doing effects and such? and might not even be really audible in most movies.

Like for example LCRs should be the main foucs and usually the most important ones in any setup. Subs too. then maybe surrounds (sides then back) this is just my opinion and i could be wrong.

So would you say speakers from the same family/timbre that are smaller(ceiling/in-wall/bookshelf) would do the job?

And i am asking as i am planning to move to a Trinnov after a while and might gather some gear if i come across good deals.

Another Q, are there any speaker setup guides for more than 16 channels that could be useful? maybe even up to 32 channels. something like the Dolby Atmos speaker setup guide.

Thanks






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post #702 of 711 Old 03-25-2020, 05:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Amazing news!

Want to know your opinion regarding the new added speakers, are they in general less important than the main 7 channels as they will be mostly doing effects and such? and might not even be really audible in most movies.
Not everyone has the same opinion on this. My ear level speakers are all Triads. My most recent adds (2nd set of side surrounds are Triad Bronze level speakers vs the other surrounds which are Silvers. The ceiling speakers closest to the seating are RSLs and the front heights are, again Triad Bronze. As for "audible in most movies"? Even when a particular speaker (e.g. top rear) is utilized while an object moves through it, you don't necessarily HEAR the specific speaker. The physical space that speaker occupies (and the space around it) just becomes better resolved as compared to if there were no speaker there.

Quote:
Like for example LCRs should be the main focus and usually the most important ones in any setup. Subs too. then maybe surrounds (sides then back) this is just my opinion and i could be wrong.

So would you say speakers from the same family/timbre that are smaller(ceiling/in-wall/bookshelf) would do the job?

And i am asking as i am planning to move to a Trinnov after a while and might gather some gear if i come across good deals.

Another Q, are there any speaker setup guides for more than 16 channels that could be useful? maybe even up to 32 channels. something like the Dolby Atmos speaker setup guide.

Thanks
In MY opinion. and if you want to maximize the sonic landscape, ALL speakers should be by the same manufacturer,and again, ideally, should have identical tweeter and midranges. But, again, only in my opinion, the differences between having matching ceiling speakers and not matching, is less critical than having matching surround level speakers.

On the other hand, I have calibrated rooms where the LCRs were by one company, the surrounds were by another (but will be changed out to LCR matching) and the heights were yet another and the subs were yet another. But one of the things that makes this particular room work so very well was the rather large investment (well north of $10,000) this individual was willing to make in passive room treatment. Once he swaps out the surrounds to match his LCRs, (and ups his woofage count a tad) this will be the best home theater audio I will have ever experienced in any home.

In your case, since you have JBLs for LCR and surrounds, as a first choice, find a less expensive JBL for use on your ceiling.

As for speaker layouts other than Dolby, take a look at the most recent DTS:X Pro recommendations. The squares show where I have speakers (21 of them).





Here are the locations of my speakers:


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post #703 of 711 Old 03-25-2020, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Finally have all of the speakers installed and have re-calibrated the room - so am now running 11.x.10. No real improvement when up-sampling 2 channel music over my previous 9.x.6. But for movies that were mastered to take advantage of lots of speakers (e.g. Gravity and Hurricane Heist), it really is amazing. As I stated elsewhere, it is not the same kind of improvement as when moving from 7.1 to 7.x.4, but it is improvement nonetheless. And of course, DTS:X Pro now takes advantage of all 21 speakers (plus subs) in my room. My room definitely sounds better than ever.
And really glad I made this upgrade.
Hi Chuck in or near Atlanta,

I'm glad to see and read that you are well pleased with your latest Audio Up-Grades.

I'm hoping I can say the same thing one of these days when my Audio is Up-Graded.

Terry
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post #704 of 711 Old 03-25-2020, 11:57 AM
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Hi Chuck,

Did DTS:X Pro make any impact on the audibility and usefulness of your Wides? As you know, this has been my biggest complaint about Atmos/DST:X... the difficulty of implementing my Wides with the Marantz 8805... so I'm curious if DTS:X Pro made an improvement. Thanks.

(Only 97 days to June 30th!!!)

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post #705 of 711 Old 03-25-2020, 12:35 PM
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Not everyone has the same opinion on this. My ear level speakers are all Triads. My most recent adds (2nd set of side surrounds are Triad Bronze level speakers vs the other surrounds which are Silvers. The ceiling speakers closest to the seating are RSLs and the front heights are, again Triad Bronze. As for "audible in most movies"? Even when a particular speaker (e.g. top rear) is utilized while an object moves through it, you don't necessarily HEAR the specific speaker. The physical space that speaker occupies (and the space around it) just becomes better resolved as compared to if there were no speaker there.

In MY opinion. and if you want to maximize the sonic landscape, ALL speakers should be by the same manufacturer,and again, ideally, should have identical tweeter and midranges. But, again, only in my opinion, the differences between having matching ceiling speakers and not matching, is less critical than having matching surround level speakers.

On the other hand, I have calibrated rooms where the LCRs were by one company, the surrounds were by another (but will be changed out to LCR matching) and the heights were yet another and the subs were yet another. But one of the things that makes this particular room work so very well was the rather large investment (well north of $10,000) this individual was willing to make in passive room treatment. Once he swaps out the surrounds to match his LCRs, (and ups his woofage count a tad) this will be the best home theater audio I will have ever experienced in any home.

In your case, since you have JBLs for LCR and surrounds, as a first choice, find a less expensive JBL for use on your ceiling.

As for speaker layouts other than Dolby, take a look at the most recent DTS:X Pro recommendations. The squares show where I have speakers (21 of them).





Here are the locations of my speakers:


Thanks for all the info lots of good things to consider. As you have mentioned i am using less expensive ceiling speakers. they are JBL 328c which are the same as the JBL SCS-8(which was used by JBL Pro in many of their past demos in shows) . main difference is that the SCS8 has its own u-bracket and is not an in-ceiling speaker and the 328c is an in-ceiling version of it. It's a very capable speaker with an 8 inch coax.

In my case and for my room they work perfectly and play at reference without issues at all. they can keep up with my fronts and surrounds.

Also not everyone agrees with this. but with EQ (curve same as the main 7 speakers) and proper amplification they just work perfectly.

In your second set of surrounds with the Triad Bronze and your front heights in general is there less activity/sound in most lets say regular 5.1/7.1 movies compared to your main 7 speakers? which if i am not wrong should be the case.

As an example, for ceiling speakers in an Atmos setup sometimes they would sound like they are off depending on the audio track of the movie itself.


I am asking this to know honestly if i should stick to something like my ceiling speakers to my 2nd set of surrounds/wides/heights..etc or use something similar (same mid/tweeter) as my current surrounds.

Thanks in advance


PS:already ordered an 8 channel amp which is on the way!


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Processors Marantz AV8805 & miniDSP 2x4 HD Amps Crown DCI/N x2 CT8150 x1 Speakers JBL PRO M2 x3 708i x4 328c x6 Subs SVS SB16 x4 Screen SI 160 Slate AT 1.2 Projector Epson TW5600 Media Steiger Dynamics Ikon Cables Wireworld,Hosa & Belden
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post #706 of 711 Old 03-25-2020, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Hi Chuck,

Did DTS:X Pro make any impact on the audibility and usefulness of your Wides? As you know, this has been my biggest complaint about Atmos/DST:X... the difficulty of implementing my Wides with the Marantz 8805... so I'm curious if DTS:X Pro made an improvement. Thanks.
You will be happy to know ---- It uses EVERY SPEAKER I have [shown with a square around it.]





Quote:
(Only 97 days to June 30th!!!)

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But who's counting? (I assume you found your replacement) So you are obviously considered "essential services"

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post #707 of 711 Old 03-25-2020, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the info lots of good things to consider. As you have mentioned i am using less expensive ceiling speakers. they are JBL 328c which are the same as the JBL SCS-8(which was used by JBL Pro in many of their past demos in shows) . main difference is that the SCS8 has its own u-bracket and is not an in-ceiling speaker and the 328c is an in-ceiling version of it. It's a very capable speaker with an 8 inch coax.

In my case and for my room they work perfectly and play at reference without issues at all. they can keep up with my fronts and surrounds.

Also not everyone agrees with this. but with EQ (curve same as the main 7 speakers) and proper amplification they just work perfectly.

In your second set of surrounds with the Triad Bronze and your front heights in general is there less activity/sound in most lets say regular 5.1/7.1 movies compared to your main 7 speakers? which if i am not wrong should be the case.

As an example, for ceiling speakers in an Atmos setup sometimes they would sound like they are off depending on the audio track of the movie itself.

I am asking this to know honestly if i should stick to something like my ceiling speakers to my 2nd set of surrounds/wides/heights..etc or use something similar (same mid/tweeter) as my current surrounds.

Thanks in advance

PS:already ordered an 8 channel amp which is on the way!

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DTS:X will use up to 30 speakers. Atmos will only use what the mixer included on the disc because the Dolby up-mixer won't be activated. . Most mobvies are still locked to 7.x.4 but when the mix uses more (e.g. Gravity or Hurricane Heist or Ford v Ferrari or ....) then whatever you have installed will be used according to the mix.

I can't answer this question for you:
Quote:
"I am asking this to know honestly if i should stick to something like my ceiling speakers to my 2nd set of surrounds/wides/heights..etc or use something similar (same mid/tweeter) as my current surrounds.".
It all depends on if you want to insure you have the (theoretically) best possible sound in your room or if you are willing to make some "possible" sacrifices and get a speaker that does not have the same tweeter/mid-range.

Here is my recommendation: As long as you continue with JBL and assuming you are "budget conscious", buy the lesser expensive speakers and use the savings to pay someone to calibrate your system. You will come out way ahead. Or if you want, buy the more expensive speakers AND still pay someone to calibrate your system. Or if, your room is not passively treated to the max, then also buy the less expensive speakers and use the savings ot properly treat your room AND pay someone to calibrate your system.
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post #708 of 711 Old 03-26-2020, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Chuck in or near Atlanta,

I'm glad to see and read that you are well pleased with your latest Audio Up-Grades.
Thanks.


Just prior to doing this upgrade, the bass in my room had gotten quite "wonky". When I looked at my settings in the miniDSP I realized that I had somehow messed up the delays to my rear subs relative to my front subs. When Tim McGinnis was here, it sounded poor as well.

When I upgraded to the Altitude 32-24 from the Altitude 16, I corrected the bass and now, with the integration of all of the additional speakers, my room sounds better than it ever has, and with one exception, sounds better than any theater I have been in. Happy camper.

Terry: As I noted previously, the upgrade you are about to make to 7.x.6 will be the biggest improvement you will have ever heard in your theater - at least it was when I did so in my room and others (but not all) have agreed.
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Thanks.


Just prior to doing this upgrade, the bass in my room had gotten quite "wonky". When I looked at my settings in the miniDSP I realized that I had somehow messed up the delays to my rear subs relative to my front subs. When Tim McGinnis was here, it sounded poor as well.

When I upgraded to the Altitude 32-24 from the Altitude 16, I corrected the bass and now, with the integration of all of the additional speakers, my room sounds better than it ever has, and with one exception, sounds better than any theater I have been in. Happy camper.

Terry: As I noted previously, the upgrade you are about to make to 7.x.6 will be the biggest improvement you will have ever heard in your theater - at least it was when I did so in my room and others (but not all) have agreed.
Chuck,

I'm not stating this as a 100% fact but simply what I really think.
If I lived in a different location where there were and are Super-High-End A/V Dealers and their ( Factory/Manufacturer Qualified Senior Technicians).
I think I would be doing some of the things I have had the pleasure of reading that you have and are continuing to do.
But .............
I don't and in my case I'm NOT even remotely what is referred to as Trusting, I'm Not at All.
So, I do things that I feel like I can get installed, professionally calibrated,
after the initial rough-working-calibrations are performed.
So, I am glad I am a long term member here on AVS and also being retired I have the Golden opportunity to see and read about you and some others that have the Best-of-the-Best.



Thanks for continuing to post your Changes and IMHO Awesome improvements to your H/T.


Terry
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post #710 of 711 Old 03-26-2020, 10:40 AM
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You will be happy to know ---- It uses EVERY SPEAKER I have [shown with a square around it.]
I am holding out hope that the Marantz 8805 will be firmware upgradeable to DTS:X Pro. If not, I'll be reviewing my options. Thanks for the confirmation!

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But who's counting? (I assume you found your replacement)
There is a nationwide shortage of people who do what I do. The job market is tight! Fortunately, we interviewed a guy this morning who looks like an excellent candidate and seems genuinely interested. :fingers crossed: I'm done June 30th, no matter what.

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So you are obviously considered "essential services"
Fortunately, my wife still seems to think so!

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(Edited Feb. 2020 to add 4K and Atmos updates)
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post #711 of 711 Old 03-26-2020, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Fortunately, my wife still seems to think so!

Craig

Now that is funny!!
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