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post #61 of 162 Old 02-03-2016, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Haha, yes! The danger of a system like this is it will sound good all the way to total deafness.

Thanks for sharing the details. That's a very interesting horn, and I think I understand why you are using it drawing from my own experience with 2226 crossed too high. We have the same pass band for the mid too. I found that the addition of a dedicated midrange driver elevated the perceived tightness and clarity vastly. Speaking to the choir here, but one part of the tactile feel is the actual punch, another thing is the sound of the punch. 2226 is a beast driver at producing the tactile punch, but the 10" driver makes sure that the punch sounds as tight as it's felt. It's not just in terms of punch though, voices etc are reproduced better. Less muffled sort of.

Haha, good thing it didn't break. I've had my fair share of mistakes too, sometimes even without noticing. Like forgetting to turn on the subs and thinking the bass is as awesome as ever

For music listening I bet that all of your sealed 2226's can do a very nice job even without subs. I high pass them whenever things are going to be pushed. Getting more drivers added has the benefit of avoiding that high pass. I recall seeing that was one of the design goals you had with all the drivers too, no?
Yes, I can get very good bass with all the subs off. But I cheat, I sum the LFE channel to ALL of the 15's.

Your cabs for your 2226's look extremely similar in size to mine. With room gains they are surprisingly flat down below 20hz. I have watched some stuff and you can get some serious bass from just some "pro" midbasses. I wouldn't recommend it for a real, serious system but they can hang. Definitely. I do not run any high pass filters at all. I do use bass management of course and that is handled by the Yamaha.

I don't have a ton of personal hands-on experience with horn speakers. This is my first but I have heard a lot of them. I came straight from passive 2-way speakers with a dome tweeter to full bore full active, multi-way horn-loaded mains. A BIG STEP UP!! Not for the inexperienced or faint of heart. Read up and studied for years before making the jump. I don't regret it.

Most find the midrange horn a rather odd choice but it does exactly what I wanted. I wanted controlled directivity down as low as possible. Wanted as much vocal range to be covered with horn speakers. You're right about punch! People think it is all sorts of things and rarely the right combination of things. Heheh. I can get as close as possible with this gear but the only work I can do now to improve that is to get a whole new environment than my little domestic room.
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post #62 of 162 Old 02-03-2016, 05:28 PM
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hey scott, just realized that i didn't make a mention...it all looks great. i was going to ask where you ended up for the midhorn frequency response, but i see that you covered that. anything left to improve or have you finally *arrived*?
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post #63 of 162 Old 02-04-2016, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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hey scott, just realized that i didn't make a mention...it all looks great. i was going to ask where you ended up for the midhorn frequency response, but i see that you covered that. anything left to improve or have you finally *arrived*?
Hey, John! Thank for dropping a line.

Yeah, that is how I've been using the midrange and fairly happy with the results so I have not really bothered tinkering with it all. Is it perfect? No. But if I got to the point where I don't care to fiddle with it and just content with it.... that's right where I wanted to be. Super anal perfectionists need not apply to my setup. I put a lot of thought into every little bit of this setup but there is a point of enough is enough. Happy is the goal and I'm there.

For the most part. Of course there are ALL SORTS of things I'd like to continue doing but yes, for the first time in a decade I feel complete. Now it's more so small details to touch on than big sweeping strokes.

For instance, I'd LOVE to put even more bass in here. But what's the point? I'm handicapped by the electrical system that I can not upgrade (can't do it) so no point going with even more subs. And what if I do get more subs? I'd need to add at least four or more to even notice and it would be such a negligible difference. I'm already smoothing the bass response and have subs in nearly every spot of the room save for the ceiling. Seriously thinking about putting some up there but again...what's the point?

I'd love matching speakers all around but I can't physically fit them. I've thought about that A LOT! Hahah. No... now I seriously need a bigger room to do what I want to do from here. And I've got plans for that but it won't happen any time soon.


There are things that will change though. I will be upgrading the Yamaha 3050 to the 5100 pre/pro this next week. My friend is selling his and I'll just sell the 3050 to pay it off. This is "forcing" me to get an external amp for my surrounds so I've already got another nu4-6000 on the way and should be here tomorrow.

On that note, been thinking about Volt10's all around (surrounds/heights). Might start with a pair or two for the side and rear surrounds. Then more for heights.

Beyond that? Highly likely that I'll pick up a UHD BD player once Panasonic releases theirs. Unless it turns out that having an HDCP 2.2 pre/pro isn't enough and I'll get locked out of playback. My projector isn't old but it isn't HDCP 2.2 afaik. Hopefully I'll get a 1080p picture from UHD BD's but with their Atmos sound. That's why I'd get the format. For the immersive audio releases.

Still thinking of a new couch. The ones I want are expensive. The ones that aren't so bad won't fit. So I'm stuck with this folded up mattress futon thing which I'm not a fan of.

So yeah. Not much new on the horizon. The next big step would be a whole new room.
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post #64 of 162 Old 02-04-2016, 04:05 PM
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congrats on the 5100. what is your buddy upgrading to?

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post #65 of 162 Old 02-04-2016, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I think he is getting the Denon 7200 so he can test DTS:X right away. Haha! Really, it's more of a side-grade than an upgrade.

The Yamaha's aren't getting DTS:X for another month.
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post #66 of 162 Old 02-05-2016, 02:09 AM
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Second that. Congrats on the 5100. I've got the 5000, so no atmos, no X, but it's doing a very good job. Only thing that bothers me insanely is that LFE is RCA, but 5100 has XLR's. Also wish it had more flexibility with the sub management filters and the XO point & slopes, and while we're at it I'd love digital outputs for every channel, but I guess we can't have it all.

I like bass
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post #67 of 162 Old 02-05-2016, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GizzeGutten View Post
Second that. Congrats on the 5100. I've got the 5000, so no atmos, no X, but it's doing a very good job. Only thing that bothers me insanely is that LFE is RCA, but 5100 has XLR's. Also wish it had more flexibility with the sub management filters and the XO point & slopes, and while we're at it I'd love digital outputs for every channel, but I guess we can't have it all.
Yeah, I had quite a beef with the design of the 5000. No XLR jack for the subwoofers?!? WTF?!?!

A tragic oversight. Thankfully rectified with the 5100 which does and is fully supported by Dolby Atmos and will soon have DTS:X support as well.

I love this 3050 but the 5100 will top it just. Will hang onto it until it either dies (unlikely) or whenever Yamaha makes a 9.1.6 equivalent of it.
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post #68 of 162 Old 02-14-2016, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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New gear added!


Picked up a Yamaha CX-A5100 pre/pro last week to replace the 3050 receiver.

In light of moving from a receiver to a pre/pro, I was in need of additional power for the surrounds speakers. Picked up second Behringer NU4-6000 4ch amplifier and now have it powering the side and rear surrounds.

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post #69 of 162 Old 02-14-2016, 01:20 PM
 
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New gear added!

Picked up a Yamaha CX-A5100 pre/pro last week to replace the 3050 receiver.

In light of moving from a receiver to a pre/pro, I was in need of additional power for the surrounds speakers. Picked up second Behringer NU4-6000 4ch amplifier and now have it powering the side and rear surrounds.
Congrats Scott. I'll be following your coming comments and comparisons...makes life exciting.

* Yamaha is built to last. Just too sad that it doesn't offer Auro-3D.
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post #70 of 162 Old 02-18-2016, 09:59 AM
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Did you build this in a bunker?

Stage 1: Anthem MRX 300 7.1 AVR; Definitive Technology CS 8060HD Center; Def Tech BP7006 Towers R&L; Paradigm Cinema CT100 Surround Speakers; Paradigm 8" Cinema Subwoofer; Episode® Evolution 12" Powered Subwoofer
< Stage 2: Vizio 54" 5.1 Soundbar. Amazing.
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post #71 of 162 Old 02-18-2016, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Did you build this in a bunker?
Spare bedroom.
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post #72 of 162 Old 04-22-2016, 04:47 PM
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Scott,

How do you like your Center Stage UF screen? How far do you sit from it and are you able to view any screen artifacts and/or the actual screen material during bright scenes?
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post #73 of 162 Old 04-22-2016, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Scott,

How do you like your Center Stage UF screen? How far do you sit from it and are you able to view any screen artifacts and/or the actual screen material during bright scenes?
I love it! It was an upgrade from my previous screen material which was their Center Stage XD material. I very much liked it but I could see the pattern from where I sat. At the time I was ~9.5ft from a 100" diagonal 16:9 screen. The size was fine but I could definitely see the weave on very bright and more solid white scenes. I sit roughly 10ft away from this screen which is much larger. About 126" diagonal 16:9. I do not see the pattern anymore. The overall gain is a little bit lower but I also got a new projector and honestly don't notice any drop in brightness. But the "featureless" screen is just what I wanted. Plus the material was stretchy (the XD was not) and that made putting the material up easier so that's a win. And it cost less than $300. Can't argue with that price and the results!

I've seen all sorts of high-end brand name screens. All sorts. This looks better than all of them and I don't say that simply from bias. I'm in a happy place where I'm not left wanting a better screen. Ever.


BTW - if you are curious about the material, contact SeymourAV and request a sample. They will send out a rather small one for free (I think) but you can get a 24"x24" one for like $10-20.

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post #74 of 162 Old 04-22-2016, 05:09 PM
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I love it! It was an upgrade from my previous screen material which was their Center Stage XD material. I very much liked it but I could see the pattern from where I sat. At the time I was ~9.5ft from a 100" diagonal 16:9 screen. The size was fine but I could definitely see the weave on very bright and more solid white scenes. I sit roughly 10ft away from this screen which is much larger. About 126" diagonal 16:9. I do not see the pattern anymore. The overall gain is a little bit lower but I also got a new projector and honestly don't notice any drop in brightness. But the "featureless" screen is just what I wanted. Plus the material was stretchy (the XD was not) and that made putting the material up easier so that's a win. And it cost less than $300. Can't argue with that price and the results!

I've seen all sorts of high-end brand name screens. All sorts. This looks better than all of them and I don't say that simply from bias. I'm in a happy place where I'm not left wanting a better screen. Ever.
Thanks!

Do you think this screen would be good for a 8 ft viewing distance?
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post #75 of 162 Old 04-22-2016, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I think so.

That was something I tried out when I first got it installed. Really couldn't see ANY weave pattern until I had my face right up on it. Before then, I could start to see some pixel structure and pixel gap (even with LCoS) so ... I'd say you could get away at that distance.
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post #76 of 162 Old 04-22-2016, 05:20 PM
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Great, thanks.
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post #77 of 162 Old 04-23-2016, 09:04 AM
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I love it! It was an upgrade from my previous screen material which was their Center Stage XD material. I very much liked it but I could see the pattern from where I sat. At the time I was ~9.5ft from a 100" diagonal 16:9 screen. The size was fine but I could definitely see the weave on very bright and more solid white scenes. I sit roughly 10ft away from this screen which is much larger. About 126" diagonal 16:9. I do not see the pattern anymore. The overall gain is a little bit lower but I also got a new projector and honestly don't notice any drop in brightness. But the "featureless" screen is just what I wanted. Plus the material was stretchy (the XD was not) and that made putting the material up easier so that's a win. And it cost less than $300. Can't argue with that price and the results!

I've seen all sorts of high-end brand name screens. All sorts. This looks better than all of them and I don't say that simply from bias. I'm in a happy place where I'm not left wanting a better screen. Ever.


BTW - if you are curious about the material, contact SeymourAV and request a sample. They will send out a rather small one for free (I think) but you can get a 24"x24" one for like $10-20.
I love the XD except for the grain issue. Tried to order this but it was new and delayed and I couldn't wait. I knew the XD would somewhat handicap the viewing experience as I'm at 10 feet as well. I concur on the mounting of the XD material. On a curved screen it's almost impossible. Ive remounted my three times and it's still not perfect. That's doing it by the book. Any difference in sound quality/attenuation?
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post #78 of 162 Old 04-23-2016, 03:34 PM
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One more question.

What do you think of your wooden riser(?) for your seating? Does it help with feeling the bass? Do you have a solid concrete room? My room is solid concrete on all sides with a tiled floor. Would you recommend I use one too?
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post #79 of 162 Old 04-25-2016, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I love the XD except for the grain issue. Tried to order this but it was new and delayed and I couldn't wait. I knew the XD would somewhat handicap the viewing experience as I'm at 10 feet as well. I concur on the mounting of the XD material. On a curved screen it's almost impossible. Ive remounted my three times and it's still not perfect. That's doing it by the book. Any difference in sound quality/attenuation?
Not any change I noticed. The XD "sounded" fine and the UF sounds the same to me.

Do you buy the whole screen or just the material? Maybe swap out for the UF material so you don't have to see the weave pattern.

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One more question.

What do you think of your wooden riser(?) for your seating? Does it help with feeling the bass? Do you have a solid concrete room? My room is solid concrete on all sides with a tiled floor. Would you recommend I use one too?
Awesome. Yes. Yes. And of course, Yes.

Just before installing the sub riser, I had gone across the country to experience some other members systems. Several of which had some form of transducer and/or nearfield subwoofer placement. Buttkickers do the job but I find them artificial. They can bring some serious grunt though. The Crowson actuator is my personal favorite. Feels very natural. My thoughts were that it was like being on a subwoofer in a good way. Where as the BK's kinda just kick your ass, literally. My feelings are of the sub riser that it's the best of both. I'm using beefy 18's so they can really belt out the bass but they can move a lot too. I like it. I did it because I had extra amps and two extra 18's and needed a riser so.... yeah.

On concrete floors but with >12 18's in a room I was still moving the foundation pretty good. This is even better.

I would recommend it if it suits your needs. Otherwise, BK or Crowson and possible nearfield subs too. Lots of ways to attack the issue.
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post #80 of 162 Old 04-25-2016, 10:39 AM
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Great, thanks.

How close does a subwoofer have to be to be considered nearfield?
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post #81 of 162 Old 04-25-2016, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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That's a matter of opinion.

Some say it has to be a foot or less. Inches away would be preferable for those people. Mine are mere inches away and certainly conveys a presence.

Just depends on what you're trying to achieve.
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post #82 of 162 Old 04-25-2016, 03:53 PM
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post #83 of 162 Old 04-25-2016, 11:45 PM
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Not any change I noticed. The XD "sounded" fine and the UF sounds the same to me.

Do you buy the whole screen or just the material? Maybe swap out for the UF material so you don't have to see the weave.
Sounds like the way to go. I just need the material. Added to the list.
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post #84 of 162 Old 04-25-2016, 11:51 PM
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Great, thanks.

How close does a subwoofer have to be to be considered nearfield?
Scott's presently awaiting medical board approval to have his extensive sub array surgically fused to his thoracic spine.
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post #85 of 162 Old 04-26-2016, 01:18 PM
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Great, thanks.

How close does a subwoofer have to be to be considered nearfield?
I would say, near field is anywhere where the subs are near the general vicinity of your sitting position. I have 2 subs, each one about a foot away from the side of the couch. I'd call that near field.
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post #86 of 162 Old 05-04-2016, 06:49 AM
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Holy crap!
Let the juices flow
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post #87 of 162 Old 05-27-2016, 04:02 PM
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Got another question...

Is your equipment rack located in-room? If so, do you hear the fans in the pro-amps during use?

Edit: Noticed you have six ceiling speakers. Are you running x.x.6? If so, how is it with one row of seating? I've been told four ceiling speakers are plenty for one row of seating. Do your two additional ceiling speakers add to the experience even with one row of seating?

Last edited by Kain; 05-28-2016 at 11:31 AM.
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post #88 of 162 Old 06-19-2016, 06:12 PM
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Scott do you have a drawing or build pictures of your sub-riser? And how much depth does your mains take up?

I will very slowly be building a 10ft x 16ft room. And it looks like I will do something similar for screen size and mains. My mains will be only single 15's but trying to maximize subwoofer space also.
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post #89 of 162 Old 06-24-2016, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Got another question...

Is your equipment rack located in-room? If so, do you hear the fans in the pro-amps during use?

Edit: Noticed you have six ceiling speakers. Are you running x.x.6? If so, how is it with one row of seating? I've been told four ceiling speakers are plenty for one row of seating. Do your two additional ceiling speakers add to the experience even with one row of seating?
The equipment rack is in the room. Behind the couch is a closet (with the doors removed) that houses all the amplifiers, projector and pre/pro. Believe it or not, it's the projector that really makes most of the heat. The amp stack gets at worst 'warm'. Each and every amp is modded with quiet fans. Some more quiet than others. I can hear them just barely. It's not anywhere near as bad a stock. Ugh. But I can still hear them a bit. I think about modding some of the amps with even quieter ones but that requires more work than simply fixing a fan. So I haven't bothered. As this is said, the noisefloor is not too bad in my room. Could be better but better than most.

Yes, have run six overheads since September when I got Atmos. It is great with one row of seating. Mostly advantageous when sitting far off-axis at the edge of of the couch.

However.... I have disabled the Atmos-EX processing and been listening to "conventional" 4ch Atmos/DTS:X sound for a couple months now.

Reason being... I want to remove the two extra receivers. Not because I didn't like the sound (actually Atmos-EX works splendidly) but because of other mostly ergonomic reasons.

First, I like using the Yamaha APP to control it and a real remote for the OPPO. Don't ask me why, I just like working that way. No interest in a universal remote (lots of experience with Harmony) for this room. Just... no. So each time I go into the room I have to separately power up the two extra AVR's which sometimes I forget and then wonder why the overhead sound isn't so great. They also add a little bit of hiss but it's pretty minor. Still, rather have none. Another reason is that the chassis for both tend to creak every so often or a relay will click. It's not predictable and when I hear it (right behind my head) it's a real immersion killer. Last but not least, they both produce a significant amount of extra heat into a room. A room with poor A/C circulation, a stack of amps and a projector and is hit by the sun ALL g'damn day. Plus it's in the 110's in the summer. F**k all that! I could do with two less things producing more heat in this little room. On top of all that, it's just two less things that need power and all those extra hook ups.

They are still in operation as they power all the presence speakers. I simply have them set to STEREO mode and are in full bypass. Eventually will remove both and in place will be a third iNuke 4-6000 amp. Sometime this year I'll do that. Would have done it already but I'm in debt after building an uber gaming PC. Smart move. Ugh. Broke as s**t.

For whatever reason when I first got my Yamaha with Atmos, the 4ch presence speakers did not ever sound very good. Middle overhead to the rescue! Or so I thought.... after a while and lots of fiddling, I found that the overhead sound can be just as good with just four speakers. Sounds odd but I tried both for real and I can say I am extremely happy with the overhead sound. So much so that I really don't care anymore about 6ch heights. Really, it's not even a priority anymore. I feel a bit embarrassed as I hawked on and on and on about them and it really did sound good but I was able to get the same sound with four speakers so.... might as well keep it simple, yeah? Sound great! When the day comes that regular priced gear starts to support native 6ch overhead sound then I'll get back into it. For now... I'm good.


Sooo... yeah, it was totally cool but for reasons other than sound quality, it will all be disabled. I will leave the speakers above cuz... well, I can't be bothered taking them down.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
Scott do you have a drawing or build pictures of your sub-riser? And how much depth does your mains take up?

I will very slowly be building a 10ft x 16ft room. And it looks like I will do something similar for screen size and mains. My mains will be only single 15's but trying to maximize subwoofer space also.
Mains are about 18-20" deep with everything considered.

Here are the only pictures I've ever taken of the subriser. No drawings. Designed it in my head.






Last edited by Scott Simonian; 06-24-2016 at 05:00 PM.
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post #90 of 162 Old 06-24-2016, 07:59 PM
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Per wikipedia, the hottest places in the solar system are the surface of the sun, the sun side of mercury and the southern San Joaquin Valley. Good to hear about going to four Tops. Two weeks back I finally aligned mine with the MLP and what a huge difference that made. Now I'm pumped to get my matching surrounds done. Bro, you have got to get one of these. Heat es no bueno.
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