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post #91 of 162 Old 06-24-2016, 10:56 PM
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Scott do you have any integration problems or other anomalies with the riser sub where it sits?

I was always worried about the riser sub integrating with the rest of the subwoofer system. I still have a long way to go before I start anything but I am building a suspended floor also so I may not need the riser. Who knows.
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post #92 of 162 Old 06-24-2016, 11:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Everything goes through one of three DCX's (except for surrounds/heights). It's all a matter of setting delays.

Suspended floor, eh? Yeah, maybe not but if you need a riser you could build a sub-less one.
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post #93 of 162 Old 06-24-2016, 11:40 PM
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My room will be in a garage. So I will build a room inside the existing structure. The floors will be regular framing on type of rubber sheets on top of the concrete floor. SO not sure how tall the framing for the floor will be but not to tall. Because I know I will have to use much bigger boards width wise for the ceiling. And I only have 8.85ft to start with.

Either way just trying to gain as much knowledge as I can. Definitely want to utilize the subwoofers as much as I can. not going to have 16 subs in my small room. Maybe 6 and thats it.
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post #94 of 162 Old 06-25-2016, 12:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Yah. That's the great thing about this subwoofer riser. If you can accommodate it's own height, it doesn't really take up any space and houses at least two heavy duty 18's. It's very much effectively nearfield so throwing in another quad subs up front in farfield would be a pretty potent combo and take up (relatively) little space.

Good luck with your layout!
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post #95 of 162 Old 07-16-2016, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Made a big update to the thread. Finally started filling out some technical specifications about this system. This weekend I decided to add the (current) frequency response with LCR+LFE shown. Also displaying my tone controls for overall bass presentation. Also included is measurements of the tactile response of this system via Vibsensor app (Android).

More information about the system to come including details about bass system and the custom 3-way speaker up front making up a large portion of the bass wall.

Enjoy.
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post #96 of 162 Old 07-21-2016, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Main Frequency Response

notes included in photo



**as of 7/16/2016**

Bass Tone Control

I can't to go by with just ONE bass response. Some movies just need that bit more bass and sometimes there is one that needs to be tamed a bit. Or maybe I just feel like having more or less depending on my mood. With much trial and error I found that simply adjusting the BASS TONE CONTROL on the Yamaha to bet the most convenient and useful way to manage my need for changing the response on-the-fly. This next graph shows the effects of this tone control (only CC shown) and it's total range.

Notes included in photo.



**frequency response shown as of 7/16/2016**


Tactile Response

This information is related to the TACTILE RESPONSE of this system. These measurements were taken from a Nexus 7 tablet using the VIBSENSOR app available on the Android market (iOS also available). Essentially this information is showing the response shape and power of the TACTILE RESPONSE which is different from the above FREQUENCY RESPONSE graphs. Frequency response, as you know, is the audible range measured. These tactile response graphs show how you FEEL the bass. Frequency response shows you what you HEAR.

For more information about Vibsensor and the topic of TACTILE RESPONSE see this thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...st-thread.html





Spoiler!
At first I thought that graph came from JPL. Magnificent.
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post #97 of 162 Old 07-22-2016, 05:44 AM
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I've been reconsidering "house curve" in light of current readings and findings about tactile response and mid-bass modules. My thinking (perhaps incorrect ) is that the "improvements" we've been able to make in low bass reproduction has "drowned out" some of the midbass.
The "traditional" house curve starts around 50Hz and increases lower bass 6dB to 10dB to the bottom limit of the subs. I think your graphs represent a better concept of our target now: starting at about 100Hz, up the same 6dB to 10dB and flat to the lower limit of the subs.
I have found that even with my not-very-exotic system, the sound is more appealing to me.
Thoughts?
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post #98 of 162 Old 07-22-2016, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
I've been reconsidering "house curve" in light of current readings and findings about tactile response and mid-bass modules. My thinking (perhaps incorrect ) is that the "improvements" we've been able to make in low bass reproduction has "drowned out" some of the midbass.
The "traditional" house curve starts around 50Hz and increases lower bass 6dB to 10dB to the bottom limit of the subs. I think your graphs represent a better concept of our target now: starting at about 100Hz, up the same 6dB to 10dB and flat to the lower limit of the subs.
I have found that even with my not-very-exotic system, the sound is more appealing to me.
Thoughts?
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Well... if you want more midbass, you'll have to increase those frequencies. 50hz and below is not midbass. Soo...

I've actually updated my FR, once again, after staring at the new pics of it were posted. Flattened the bump at 70hz (which I think I liked) and filled in the dip ~150hz.

I'll repost those pics sometime later.


The traditional "house curve" is fun and pleasant at first which is why a lot of people do it. After a while and with such a poweful subwoofer system, it gets tiring and some stuff just sounds "too heavy". So that's why I chronicled (lol) the whole bass control range cuz I find that I need that sort of control over the overall bass presentation.
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post #99 of 162 Old 07-25-2016, 06:42 PM
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So maybe you can help out here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post45587473

Michael

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post #100 of 162 Old 08-04-2016, 10:09 PM
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Hey Scott be honest how many sound disturbance calls have you had?

Lol
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post #101 of 162 Old 08-05-2016, 06:44 AM
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Hey Scott be honest how many sound disturbance calls have you had?

Lol
That's not the proper measurement for a bass system - it's how many false earthquake tremors reported from the nearest seismograph he's had.
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post #102 of 162 Old 08-05-2016, 09:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Only a couple of complaints but that was before I built the "mega system" even (receiver power and only two 18's) and when my closest neighbors kids were still infant/toddler age.

In the past couple of years...no complaints.


I can not confirm or deny that I have induced many several a few earthquakes in my area.

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Last edited by Scott Simonian; 08-05-2016 at 09:16 AM.
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post #103 of 162 Old 08-14-2016, 10:40 AM
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Hey Scott, I'm curious about your overhead speakers. There's a pretty big headroom drop-off from your surrounds to your heights: 8" 3-way to 5.25" 2-way. And obviously a gigantic drop-off from your front speakers to your heights.

Have you ever heard anything to make you think you need more capability up there? If not, that means I could probably get away with 4" concentrics for height at the volume levels I listen. That makes going from 7.1 to 7.1.4 channel much more practicable...

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post #104 of 162 Old 08-15-2016, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Scott, I'm curious about your overhead speakers. There's a pretty big headroom drop-off from your surrounds to your heights: 8" 3-way to 5.25" 2-way. And obviously a gigantic drop-off from your front speakers to your heights.

Have you ever heard anything to make you think you need more capability up there? If not, that means I could probably get away with 4" concentrics for height at the volume levels I listen. That makes going from 7.1 to 7.1.4 channel much more practicable...
Excellent question!

Yes, it is quite noticeable. Especially with the Emo surrounds as heights. Realistically a near 20dB gap in overall sensitivity from front mains to the Emo overheads. Yes, there have been several times when I have nearly overloaded them with overhead content that was of high level. Some people think that the heights/overheads don't get much of strong signals but they do and these speaker locations should be treated like every other speaker in the system. Should be noted that I have never overloaded them in the past listening at or near reference levels when used as conventional surrounds. Also, I cross them at 80hz like the rest. I could probably get less distortion from them in these events if I pushed that higher but I like to keep this crossover as a global setting. Things sound more alike that way to me.

I've been planning on relocating the front pair of overhead speakers. They are physically the furthest speaker from the MLP yet they are the least sensitive. I mounted them as such because it was easy. It will require some new light construction to mount them where I'd prefer them to be but this will allow me to drop their levels down 4-5dB and that should be enough to stop them from being overloaded from time to time, I think.

I'm only using them because they are free as I already owned them. At some point I'd like to upgrade ALL of the surrounds and overheads to identical speakers. Not sure what I'll do. The cheapest route would be another pair of JBL 8330's (have a third pair in storage) and just use those too but they are pretty heavy. Was thinking eight Volt10's would be cool and not too expensive relatively.


So to answer your question, you might be able to get away with 4" KEF's but I'd probably cross them a bit higher. Which in your case might be alright because you usually have high quality, low inductance-type subs all over. Not super sure about reference with those but for 99% of the time and at sane levels...I think you would be alright.


My JBL 8330's seem to hang just fine. They are very close to the seats though so that helps a lot.
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post #105 of 162 Old 08-15-2016, 11:22 AM
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Scott, I think you need to upgrade to 13 active 3way speakers, nothing else will do at this stage.

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post #106 of 162 Old 08-15-2016, 05:47 PM
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Yes, it is quite noticeable. Especially with the Emo surrounds as heights. Realistically a near 20dB gap in overall sensitivity from front mains to the Emo overheads. Yes, there have been several times when I have nearly overloaded them with overhead content that was of high level. Some people think that the heights/overheads don't get much of strong signals but they do and these speaker locations should be treated like every other speaker in the system.
Thanks for the detailed answer, Scott!

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post #107 of 162 Old 08-16-2016, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Scott, I think you need to upgrade to 13 active 3way speakers, nothing else will do at this stage.
Heh! Yeah, that would be pretty cool. Dunno about ALL of them being active. Would be a big PITA but fun...maybe. I could definitely "settle" with beefy coax's for overhead and surrounds. Right now I have enough extra JBL 2226's that I could make identical speakers all around with dual 15's and use four overheads with a single 15". In that case it would be 7ch active 3-way and four passive speakers up on the ceiling.

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Thanks for the detailed answer, Scott!
Hey, no problem. Good luck!
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post #108 of 162 Old 09-13-2016, 11:04 PM
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I see your going from 6 to 4 overheads? Is 4 the better solution or good enough? Throw some Volt 10's up there?

That riser needs some skin, pronto. Ok, thats as much of your money that I feel comfortable budgeting in this month. I got a late start. Don't worry, I'll make up for it next month.
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post #109 of 162 Old 09-14-2016, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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I see your going from 6 to 4 overheads? Is 4 the better solution or good enough? Throw some Volt 10's up there?

That riser needs some skin, pronto. Ok, thats as much of your money that I feel comfortable budgeting in this month. I got a late start. Don't worry, I'll make up for it next month.
Heheh. Yeah.... if only you knew how broke I have been this year.

But... sure. I've thought about covering up the riser but... I can't be bothered. I'm usually in the room alone and it doesn't bother me. I'm so short my feet don't really reach the floor of the riser when I slouch back in the sh**ty futon anyway.

Volt10's all around are my preferred "affordable" solution. No money to afford them so....

Rather get a UHD player at this point.

Yes, four overheads is both good enough and "better". Planned on swapping out my two ancient receivers powering my overheads with just some four channel amp so when I do that it will be "better" for ergonomic reasons. Six channels works and sounded good but I got the same sound from four so I'm going with four. Easier to process. Less cables. Less headaches. Most people have no idea what it's like to get to my equipment rack. If they knew... they'd understand.

Last edited by Scott Simonian; 09-14-2016 at 09:59 AM.
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post #110 of 162 Old 09-27-2016, 05:15 PM
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Cool system.

Grats
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post #111 of 162 Old 10-03-2016, 12:10 PM
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Yah. That's the great thing about this subwoofer riser. If you can accommodate it's own height, it doesn't really take up any space and houses at least two heavy duty 18's. It's very much effectively nearfield so throwing in another quad subs up front in farfield would be a pretty potent combo and take up (relatively) little space.

Good luck with your layout!
The sound must be massive Now all you need is to decorate the room
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post #112 of 162 Old 10-03-2016, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
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The sound must be massive Now all you need is to decorate the room
Covering every square inch in blackout velvet is the plan.
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post #113 of 162 Old 10-07-2016, 05:10 PM
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Awesome system!
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post #114 of 162 Old 11-25-2016, 03:08 PM
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Hi Scott, nice setup, well done!
Do you by any chance have a link to your "(4x) Dual Opposed sealed 18" subwoofer (DIY - Stereo Integrity HT18d4)"?

Thanks much!

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post #115 of 162 Old 12-19-2016, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Scott, nice setup, well done!
Do you by any chance have a link to your "(4x) Dual Opposed sealed 18" subwoofer (DIY - Stereo Integrity HT18d4)"?

Thanks much!
Hi, starcat.

Sorry, there was never any real build thread for any of my current gear. Just...never bothered. There isn't much to the dual opposed enclosures I built. 1" MDF baffles and 3/4" MDF walls. Single brace. R13 lined. That's it. Nothing special and pretty much bare minimum.

This is the best I can provide for that: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...at-s-come.html

Lots of collecting of parts and some construction pics in there.
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post #116 of 162 Old 12-28-2016, 12:24 AM
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I was wondering: It looks like your frequency response shelves down about 6 dB below 12 Hz or so. Is that because of your personal preference or other issues like signal chain roll-off?
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post #117 of 162 Old 12-28-2016, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I was wondering: It looks like your frequency response shelves down about 6 dB below 12 Hz or so. Is that because of your personal preference or other issues like signal chain roll-off?
A little bit of both.

I've long had solid extension down to the upper single digits. Even with my previous dual LLT system. The sealed system does require some boost to make it flat though. For a while I was really pushing it with ~15dB of boost! Enough to make it flat to 5hz but... I actually didn't like it. Sure, it was "cool" for those effects but a lot of the time the system's tone was just too heavy. I didn't enjoy the sound and it was wasting so much amplifier headroom. Decided to take off some 6dB worth of boost and left it there. Rather have 6dB of extra headroom everywhere than some extra ULF "awesomeness" sometimes occasionally rarely. And there is where I have left the FR for the bass. Mostly...

In an ideal world (system) I'd like to have the system flat to 2-3hz or something but in this case I compromised some for more overall SPL and that I enjoy (and paid a f**k ton for in sweat, blood, tears, time and money).
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post #118 of 162 Old 12-30-2016, 09:00 PM
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In an ideal world (system) I'd like to have the system flat to 2-3hz or something but in this case I compromised some for more overall SPL and that I enjoy (and paid a f**k ton for in sweat, blood, tears, time and money).
Im willing to pay in blood and tears, mainly tears. BUt the rest of it, especially the money seems to be the problem.
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post #119 of 162 Old 01-01-2017, 10:46 AM
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in this case I compromised some for more overall SPL and that I enjoy (and paid a f**k ton for in sweat, blood, tears, time and money).
Blasphemy!!
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post #120 of 162 Old 02-17-2017, 11:51 PM
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Scott- Your L/C/R rig reminds me many years ago when I had three full Marshall stacks setup in my den between gigs...hehehehe. I love it.
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