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My 11.4.12 "Franken-Atmos" living room.

184K views 1K replies 87 participants last post by  Nalleh 
#1 · (Edited)
My 13.4.12 "Franken-SWAtmos" living room.



EDIT april -23.

Denon finally came out with a AVR capable of Atmos 9.4.6 all with inboard amp channels, so i ditched the Franken Atmos and went legit😂😂 Read on from post 1303 👍


I get a lot of questions about my setup, so i tought i could make a thread explaining it a little more. And maybe some pics too.

Short version: i use more than one Atmos AVR's to expand beyond the 7.1.4/9.1.2 hardware limit on todays affordable gear.

Updated may 2019: ventured into the BOSS world of shakers, post 562..
Updated Mars 2019: stacked Crowson motion actuators and Buttkickers, post 498.

Updated may 2018: new nearfield solution with 12x12" JBL’s behind the couch. Starts at post 281.


UPDATED MARCH 2018


Ok, here we go again. Since reading about the new Denon flagship receiver capable of 13.1 and all amps built in, i had to make changes. So i sold the 5200 and 6200 and have now gotten the brand new AVC-X8500H. So no i can either do 9.1.4 or 7.1.6 with JUST the 8500, or as i have it configured for now 7.1.6 from the 8500 and 9.1.2 from the 7200 for a total of 9.1.6. And this is as correct 9.1.6 as you can get in this price range. And i can also do a (nearly) correct DTS:X 9.1.6. Auro is coming in a May update and will be 13.1. So i should be covered either way.

And if i want(and will test later on) i can still do the 13.1.8 setup i had earlier, but now i just need these two AVR’s. The 8500 for 9.1.4 (FH+RH), and the 7200 setup with 5.1.4+W for special wides and special surround + TF+TR.

So gear now is:

Gear.
Oppo BDP-203 UHD player(regionfree)
XBOX ONE X
Canal Digital HD PVR satellite-box
Apple TV3
(Darbee Darblet and MARSEILLE MCABLE for 1080P content)
Denon AVC-X8500H
Denon AVR-X7200WA
Yamaha RX-V3067
3 X Inuke NU6000DSP
JVC DLA RS600
Dreamscreen V2 dynagrey 120" screen
Samsung UE65JU7005 UHDTV
Harmony Ultimate.
Front=Klipsch RF-82 mk1
Center=Klipsch RC-64 mk2
Wide= Dynavoice Challenger M65 V3
Surr= Klipsch RS52
WideSur1/Sur2=Klipsch RS42
Surrback= KEF3005SE
Height speakers= 10x KEF3005SE
Nearfield mid-bass= Behringer B1200D
LFE= 2 X Sonosubs with 2 X SI18HT v2 in Dual Opposed config.
4x Crowson Shadow8 motion actuators
MiniDSP 2X4 balanced

Read more in post 259 :)


OLDER SETUP:


Did a quick and dirty diagram of the setup.
Blue speakers powered by the 7200.
Red speakers powered by the 6200.
Yellow speakers powered by the 5200.





I will try to have the first post as updated about the setup as possible, and then take the details as we go.

Edit: updated Feb -17:

My HT is in the right half of my living room, and the room dimensions are:

5.1x4.1x2.4 meter

16.5Wx13.5Dx7.8H feet


EDIT sep17:

Or about 1800 cubic feet
(+ the other half).

Gear.
Panasonic DMP-UB900 UHD player
HD FURY Integral
Oppo BDP-103 BD player
Darbee Darblet
Canal Digital HD PVR satellite-box
Apple TV3
PS3 (fat)
XBOX360
Denon AVR-X7200WA
Denon AVR-X6200W
Denon AVR-X5200W
Yamaha RX-V3067
Inuke NU6000DSP
JVC DLA X500R
Dreamscreen V2 dynagrey 120" screen
Samsung UE65JU7005 UHDTV

Front=Klipsch RF-82 mk1
Wide= Dynavoice Challenger M65 V3
Center=Klipsch RC-64 mk2
Surr= Klipsch RS52
WideSur1/Sur2=Klipsch RS42
Surrback= KEF3005SE
Height speakers= 10x KEF3005SE
Nearfield mid-bass= Behringer B1200D
LFE= SVS PB12-Plus/2
ULF= PSA S3000i +4x Crowson Shadow8 motion actuators
MiniDSP 2X4 balanced

All controlled by a Logitech Harmony Ultimate with the hub+4 extenders.

So my earlier setup was a Denon 7200/5200 combo, to get 7.1.4 + Wides + 8 channels of height speakers, for a 9.1.8 setup, explained further down on page(behing the spoiler), but i recently got a 6200 to gain HDMI 2.0 and DTS:X on the second AVR. Then i discovered "Special Wides" descrided in post 67 in this thread. Since i now had 3 Atmos AVR's, this gave me the opportunity to gain both 2 set of wides, AND keep my 8 channels of heights, for a grand total of 13.1.8 in native Atmos and 9.1.8 on DTS:X.




In daily TV use, i have just the 7200 playing DSU in a 7.1.4 setup, but it has all 14 speakers connected, for a 7.1.4 Atmos/DTS:X or 10.1 Auro 3D setup.

So in native Atmos, setup is as follows:
7200 switched to 9.1.2 for fronts @ 25 degrees, "Pure Wides" @ 50 degrees, "Pure Surrounds @ 85 degrees and Surround backs @150 degrees. Playing only 9.1.0(note 1)(note5).



6200 setup as 5.1.4+Wides(note2) for Wides/Sur1 @ 70 degrees, Sur2/Rears @110 degrees and Top Front+ Top Rear. Playing Wides, Sur2, and Tops(note4).



5200 setup as 5.1.4 for Front Height and Rear Height. Playing 0.0.4
(note 1)(note 2)(note3).



So basically the 7200 plays 9.1.0, while the 5200 plays 0.0.4(heights).
And 6200 plays 5.0.4(Wide/Sur1+Sur2/Rear+Tops).



As you can see in the little channel indicators in front display, the 7200(to the left) plays SB and WIDES, the 6200(bottom right) plays wides but no SB's and the 5200 (top right) plays no wides and no SB's.
As before, they are linked together via HDMI ZONE2 daisy-chained to the next AVR.

I only need on/off and main volume changes on the 6200/5200, so one original remote(and Harmony ultimate) handles that very well.

Note 1: both the 7200 and 5200 front and rear heights pre-out goes to the main and zone2 outputs of the Yama, so i just use the remote to switch the heights currently beeing used between the 7200 and 5200. So when the 7200 is in 9.1.2 mode, i let the 5200 power the heights.

Note 2: both the 6200 and 5200 wides pre-out goes to zone3 on the Yama, so i can choose wich one powers the Wide/sur1 speakers. This way i can use Neo:X wides from the 5200 in DSU(wich do not use wides).

Note 3: in Auro 3D, the 7200 powers the full 10.1 possible. But i can copy the 5200 surrounds(in Auro mode) to the surround back speakers(silent in Auro 10.1) for Auro "12.1" This way i get more "rear fill" than with just the 7200 surrounds @85 degrees. This is done with a dual source speaker switch. I can also power the Surround Heights with the 5200 if i change amp assign to FH+SH, for Auro "14.1".

Note 4: i have a "Center Height" speaker above the screen. This is connected to the center output of the 6200, and works as a "dialog lift", and also helps pannings between the front heights.

Note 5: the 7200 powers a VOG(sub2 pre-out) used in Auro 3D. In other formats, i can matrix a VOG using PL2 in the Yama extracted from the rear heights.


After all this was connected, all 3 AVR's got a full Pro calibration. This took a while...



I got a third !?! Kef3005SE 5.1 speaker kit for this upgrade. I switched out the surround backs from Klipsch to Kef, and the rear heights from white to black Kef's.



And got rid of the bookshelfs used as Surround Heights for white Kef's.
See the Kef sub on top of the Bluray rack? I now have bass-managment on the rear heights ;)




Older setup behind spoiler, no longer used. Too complicated :(

7200 Audyssed with 7.1.4 FH+RH+wides+VOG. 14 speakers.
5200 Audyssed with 7.1.4 TF+TR+wides. 13 speakers.

In native Atmos, my 7200 is playing 7.1.4, no SB+FW.

My 5200 is playing TF+TR.
However: since the 7200 has deactivated SB's in this case, and they then are downmixed into the surrounds, I switch the surrounds and surround-backs over to the 5200, via my old AVR(Yama 3067 set up as a multisource(all three zones) active speaker switch).

So the 5200 also plays surrounds and SB's.

="TRUE" 9.1.8 ;)

When playing native DTS:X (wich is limited to 7.1.4 anyway) from the 7200, i can play wides from the 5200 in Neo:X mode(matrixed from fronts and surrounds in both cases anyway).

And then when playing native Auro 3D, the 7200 plays 10.1, and if the track is 13.1, the 5200 can fill in with surround backs.




Setup. Ok, so a little more in detail how it all is connected.

The two AVR's are simply connected with a HDMI cable from the 7200 zone2 HDMI OUT, to AV1 input on the 5200. This output is a copy of the input, untouched, unprocessed, full sound and picture.

From the 7200 the speakers are:

Front LR= 7200.

Center=7200.

Surrounds= goes trough a dual source-dual output speaker switch.
Input A is from the 7200 surround speakers
Input B is from the 5200 surround speakers
Output 1 goes to surround speakers 1 at 85 degrees
Output 2 goes to surround speakers 2 at 110 degrees
So i can choose wich surround should play, even both sets from on AVR. Or one from each. Like when i deactivate the 7200 SB's to gain the wides, i can let the 5200 play surround1 and SB's, and then let the 7200 play the surround2.

Surround back= Both 7200 and 5200 surround back pre-outs goes to Yama AVR zone2 input audio1 and audio2. So i can choose wich plays the SB's. I also have a input from 5200 surrounds here, so i can copy the surrounds to surround back, eg in Auro.

Front wides= goes trough a second dual source-dual output speaker switch.
Input A is from the 7200 front wide speakers.
Input B is from the 5200 front wide speakers.
So either the 7200 or the 5200 can power the wides.

Front height= 7200.

Rear height= 7200 pre-out goes to Yama AVR main zone input AV1
I can choose stereo(2speakers) or PL2 matrixing to the center channel, VOG(3speakers).
Rear height is also connected via a Y-connector to the Yama multi ch front input.

Top surround(Auro 3D)= 7200 sub2 pre-out goes to Yama multi ch input, center channel.

So by switching the Yama from AV1 input(Atmos/DTS:X) to multi ch input (Auro 3D) i get correct signal to rear height and top surround).

From the 5200 the speakers are:

Front LR= connected to 7200 multi ch inputs, fronts. When calibrating or playing from 5200, the 7200 is switched to multi ch.

Center= 5200 to a center height.

Surrounds= see above dual source speaker switch.

Surround back= see above Yama zone2.

Front wides= see above second dual source speaker switch.

Top fronts= 5200.

Top rears= 5200 pre-out goes to Yama AVR Zone 3.

Surround height(Auro 3D)= 5200 pre-out is also connected via a Y-connector to Yama AVR main zone multi ch input, surround channels.

So on the Yama, if i turn of zone3(top rear) and switch to multi ch, the 5200 height2 signal is directed to the surround heights(Auro 3D).

I have a lot of flexibility with this setup, but it is not advisable to leave the remote with grandma :)

Some pics of the recently redone living room.





























 
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#49 ·
That is just a bonkers set up, in the most awesome ways. I am curious how large is that room? I mean it looks fairly small for the amount of speakers you have going on in there, I mean compared to the size rooms you normally see when people running a set up close to yours. Although there are probably not many running something near that complicated. But this place being what it is I am sure someone will chime in with their 32.16.153 9 AVR uber set up. And out of curiosity what remote do you use to control that bad boy? Im still amazed by the layout of it and that diagram. Heck I sitting here just finally getting ready to set up my first legit 5.2 set up.
 
#52 ·
#54 ·
Here is a clip showing the Crowsons in use playing the drop scene from Lone Survivor:



I had REW going with RTA showing the chopper blades are at 6.5 Hz!!, and as you can see the whole couch is shaking. (Sorry for the dark video).
This is at MV -20.
 
#56 ·
Yeah, even better than "F...king Irene" ;)
 
#57 ·
And here is the latest gadget, the B1200D-Pro.


Also shows the KEF beside it, as i used two of them as midbass earlier. Actually added conciderably more than i thought, but not near as much as the 1200, which is awsome. Insane punch out of that little gem.
 

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#60 ·
And here is the latest gadget, the B1200D-Pro.


Also shows the KEF beside it, as i used two of them as midbass earlier. Actually added conciderably more than i thought, but not near as much as the 1200, which is awsome. Insane punch out of that little gem.
Not surprised. Your speakers are tiny. You need this. :D

Should kick up the fun with this and Crowson's. :)
 
#58 ·
Hey Nalleh, what in you experience has been the best sounding movie and/or game you have heard on your system? I could have fun there playing some Call of Duty.
 
#59 ·
Actually, i haven't played any games so far, lool. But i only play driving games anyway ;)

Regarding movies, two moments stand out.

1. First time i played Transformers 4, the first Atmos movie in my freshly connected Atmos 7.1.4 system. Awsome, just awsome, i was flabbergasted

2. A little later, when i watched the movie Red Tails in native Auro 10.1. This was just jawdropping, and so much fun, i smiled the whole time.

But i now have over 100 Atmos titles, all the DTS:X ones and all Auro movies, so here are a lot of good ones.
Those who comes to mind are Gravity, Fifth Element, Pacific Rim, Jupiter Ascending, Lucy, both Ninja Turtle movies, Unbroken.....
 
#64 · (Edited)
Thanks guys. :)

Ok a little work to do today. Just bought a demoed AVR-X6200W, so going to replace my 5200 and calibrate it all today.

So i now have HDMI 2.0 and DTS:X on both AVR's and can get the same 9.1.8 DTS:X as i get in Atmos.

Should also simplify my UHD HDR watching.



Not much difference, looks exactly the same, LOL.
 

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#66 · (Edited)
Done. DTS:X 9.1.8 :)



I have also turned around a bit on the ceiling speakers. By using the vertical mount i got a lot more angle to play with, so i adjusted them at the MLP. That is, the left ones at the right MLP, and the right ones at the left MLP, for energy trading. As mounted before, straight down, in scenes with for example rain from above, i tended to hear that from "my" side of ceiling speakers, not from centered above. This is now much better.







I also have received my two new Crowsons, so I now have 4 under the couch. Seems more effective, effortless and they run cooler.
And got a new amp for the Crowsons, anybody wanna guess?



Yup, i got a Inuke NU6000DSP :)



Horrible fan noise, but had two Noctua fans, so i switched them out. Virtually silent now, and the amp never runs hot.

;)
 
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#67 ·
Sweet cristmas, that mad scientist @maikeldepotter got me thinking about a possible expansion of my setup:

Now that would be interesting alternative approach:
Activating Width speakers in both configurations (CONFIG-1: 5.1.4+wides, CONFIG-2: 7.1.2+wides), to subsequently:
(a) combine signals of both configurations to feed one set of Width speakers, or
(b) keep signals separate to feed an additional sets of Wides.

This last option would be my new favorite for using multiple AVRs/processors, as it enables a 13.1.4 lay-out:
- C + L/R at 25/30 degrees (from CONFIG-1 or CONFIG-2, as now they are identical)
- 'pure' Wides at 50 degrees (from CONFIG-2)
- Wides/Surrounds mix at 70 degrees (from CONFIG-1)
- 'pure' Surrounds at 90 degrees (from CONFIG-2)
- Surround/Rears mix at 120 degrees (from CONFIG-1)
- 'pure' Rears at 150 degrees (from CONFIG-2)

As this multiple AVR/processor set-up includes those 'Special Wides' or 'Surround-Wides' found in a Atmos 5.1.x+wides configuration, it could be referred to as SWATMOS, available in either 11.1.4 or 13.1.4.



As explained above, I believe it CAN be made 'technically correct' for ATMOS. Even more so, it will probably deliver an experience closer to that of a mixing stage or cinema, as it creates arrayed bed channel surrounds (3 pair, one of which shared with rears) and rears (2 pairs, one of which shared with surrounds).

.
Should i go for it?
 
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#68 ·
Sweet cristmas, that mad scientist @maikeldepotter got me thinking about a possible expansion of my setup:



Should i go for it?
Worth a try for sure!

I am beginning to think that I need to mount the speakers on a rail system that allows easy repositioning of the surrounds and ceiling speakers along known paths... :D
 
#70 ·
BTW, when we remodeled the living room, i was looking for a way to "map" where the speakers should go in this room according to Atmos guidelines.

I am a total amatour in Sketchup, but i managed to make a simple drawing with my dimension and the angles for all Atmos speakers. This helped and confirmed i was on the right track.

 

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#71 ·
And for the heights. With the dimensions all laid out, it was much easier to get the speakers were tey should be.

 

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#74 ·
Well, after some more testing i have desided that Swatmos need to happen!

I will get more into it next week, i just need to plan how it is best configured, but it will now include 3 !?! Atmos AVR's for a total of 13.1.8 Atmos setup. Even so, i think i can get a simpler setup and operation than i have now, and easier switch to all 3 formats.

Stay tuned.
 
#76 ·
13.1.8 Franken-SWAtmos is up and running :)



As you can see, the two bottom AVR's have wides active(the little channel indicator to the right in front display: pure wides and wides/sur1.

And it is working as intended. More details is coming.
 

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#114 ·
Stacking electronics components is a bit risky and detrimental to the health of your components, plus, may have a negative effect on your noise floor. FYI only. otherwise, very impressive undertaking by you.
 
#78 ·
Ok, since getting the SWATMOS idea from @maikeldepotter, i decided to test it out. So, the idea is based on the discovery that the wides play different content as a result of how you activate them. You can do that two ways:
1. Use just one set of height speakers for a 9.1.2 setup.
This results in objects only playing from the wides.

2. Use no rear surrounds for a 5.1.4 +wides setup.
Now the wides play a mix of objects and surround sounds, but not exactly the same content as neither the "pure" wides, nor the "pure" surrounds.

At the same time as this was discussed in the "wide appreciation thread", i upgraded my non-DTS:X Denon 5200 to a 6200. I WAS going to sell the 5200, but the aforementioned suggestion got me fired up. So to test this out, i had all three Atmos AVR's connected to the following:

First AVR setup in a 9.1.2 setup for "pure wides" playing ONLY these wides, all others silent.
Second AVR setup in 5.1.4+W setup for Wides/Sur1 playing ONLY these wides, all others silent.
Third one setup in a 9.1.2 setup for "pure" surrounds, playing only these surrounds, all others silent.

I could now play any combination of these 3 sets of speakers, and listen to differences. I used severeal of the Atmos demo tracks and also the Bailando music video, as music har repetetiv and consistent sounds.

As the Bailando video was a very good example to use, let's do that:

Pure wides: can be silent 5-10 seconds at a time, and then play one distinct sound, very "digital". By that i mean it starts and ends very sudden, no ambiance, no echo, just very "dry", presise sounds.

Wides/Sur1: this is a lot more like normal surround sound, much more sounds, and you can hear some percussions and chorus playing. And these sounds have more ambiance, not so "on/off", and more "smooth".

Pure surrounds: these play even more chorus, and now you can hear guitars, and other sounds. Very clear difference when muting and un-muting these versus only the two sets of wides.

So clearly not the same content in these 3 sets of channels.

Also, with just the two sets of wides playing, i could not only hear pannings side to side, but also front to back! I was surpised by this, but i noticed this in several of the tracks.

And after enabling all speaker for the full 13.1.8, one thing is very noticable : the presision and placement of sound coming from the front corners, between my fronts and pure surrounds, are much better. Now playing Leaf, Amaze, or films like Gravity, it is the the best i have heard from my setup!

I will update the first post with the new setup, wich is actually a lot simpler, despite now including 3 Atmos AVR's. (And still my Yama Multi-zone-active-speaker-switch).

Here is a pic of the new "SURROUND ARRAY". From left in pic:
Pure Wides @50 degrees (floorstanders)
Wides/Sur1 @70 degrees
Pure Surrounds@85 degrees
Sur2/Rears @ 110 degrees.

Surround back(out of pic) @150 degrees.

 

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#80 ·
Also, with just the two sets of wides playing, i could not only hear pannings side to side, but also front to back! I was surpised by this, but i noticed this in several of the tracks.
During such experiment, were you able to identify any sounds appearing in the 'pure wides' (at 50 degrees), while at that very same time being completely absent from the 'surround wides' (at 70 degrees)? I would think that such moments will not occur...

On the other hand, with just the 'surround wides' (at 70 degrees) and the 'pure surrounds' (at 90 degrees) playing, I think you might be able to identify sounds playing in the 'pure surrounds' while at that same time NOT in the 'surround wides'. That would confirm the hypothesis that only surround bed channel info is copied to the 'surround wides', and not the sound objects positioned at the surround location.
 
#79 ·
First post updated with new setup and some pics :)
 
#81 ·
I think you should rename this thread to "Evolution of madness".

When you play Atmos, is there any difference in sound between your top an heights speakers?
 
#84 ·
Yes, i use the center output from the 6200 to power the "center height". That way it is correctly calibrated and EQ'ed, not just connected in parallel to the 7200 center.

Read more about it in the first post :)
 
#85 ·
Did a quick and dirty diagram of the setup.
Blue speakers powered by the 7200.
Red speakers powered by the 6200.
Yellow speakers powered by the 5200.

 

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#87 ·
Simply wow! The speaker layout with the added colour is almost as exciting as Atmos itself! :)

Really helps to explain how you have this running, thanks for sharing!

BTW, this is the layout that I would like to achieve for my HT (I have all of the required speakers on hand).
 
#90 ·
Confused as to the separation for the heights. I get set of rears, fronts and scatmos TM. In this config, only the matrix middle would play in TM and there would be no redundancy...

However in your .8 how much separation are you getting from RH and TR and same question with fronts? Seems like you would actually be shrinking the sound stage with your .8 vs. .6 scatmos..
 
#95 ·
Sorry, i missed this post completely.

Well, no it doesn't. With tops and heights, panning sounds doesn't have do rely on phantom imaging as much, since there is sounds from a actual speaker instead. Pannings both front to rear and left to right works beatifully, and is very precise.
 
#96 ·
More SWATMOS testing.

So, after some discussion in the multi AVR thread, i decided to do some practical tests with my AVR's "on top of each other" setup. I was trying to hear if they manage to phantom sounds to the same placement, or shifted sound when muting/unmuting config1 or config2.

Earlier i had noticed that the 9.1.6 Atmos test tones are a good way to test different setup, and one example is the side surround test tone.
In a regular 7.1 or 9.1 setup, that tone comes from the side surround speaker(only), optimally @90 degrees, as it should.
However, in a 5.1+wides setup, that tone is phantomed(@90 degrees) between the side surround and wide speakers, since in a 5.1 setup, side surrounds are placed further back(@110-120 degrees), to compensate for no surround backs.

By playing this test tone alternating between config1(5.1+W), config2(9.1) or both i could test if it sounds/phantoms as it should.

First test actually revealed that it did shift forward with config1 (5.1+W) on, but then i remember that i bumped the special wides and reduced the surr/rear mix, so i thought it was best to start from scratch. Since i did the last Audyssey calibration, i had only used the AVR's internal test tones to check channel levels. But i now went trough each channel on all 3 AVR's using the 9.1.6 Atmos test tones to set the levels, and it was some discrepancy here and there. So with all channels level matched, i did the test again, and now it worked surprisingly well. Much better than i thought.
I then listened trough most of the Atmos demo clips, and as a base, the 2 first AVR's were playing in the accepted 9.1.4 setup, and then i continously unmuted/muted the config1 AVR, thereby filling in special wides, surr/rear mix and the 4 tops.

I could not hear any shift/smear in sounds/ effects or pannings, in fact what i could hear was increased stability and more pronounced and precise pannings, and a sense of bigger sound bouble. No artifacts, nothing standing out as negative effects.

Actually, in listening to the Bailando music video(again), i was very surprised by how easy this bigger sound bubble was to hear. I closed my eyes and frantically pressed the config1 mute button, to the point where i did not know if it was muted or not, and with eyes still closed i repetedly pressed mute button slowly, and tried to guess if it was muted or not(blind test?). I got it correct each time, surprisingly NOT because it got louder, not at all, but it got wider and taller in all directions. This was the "cinematic" effect of the special wides, but it also added a similar effect to the rear outer corner, adding more space. And the tops continued that effect upwards. Simply a bigger 3D sound bubble.

I also played the opening scene in Gravity, my favourite Atmos demo scene.
And it was awsome, added stability in Houston crew voices panning around the room, clearer sounds from the wide position, taller effects from the ceiling, i ended up just smiling, and enjoying the scene :).
It truly is a awsome soundtrack, just too bad the Atmos edition isn't 3D picture as well.


All in all, any afternoon ending with a better sound is a good afternoon.
 
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