My 11.4.12 "Franken-Atmos" living room. - Page 24 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #691 of 828 Old 05-17-2019, 08:06 AM
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Omg, that’s awesome and looks insane for a single seat. The thought of a rocket strapped to your butt comes to mind! Here I am today working on my little ol’ 6 JBL driver BOSS.
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post #692 of 828 Old 05-17-2019, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks guys
I will probably get it done tomorrow, so i can test the rocket launcher, LOL.
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post #693 of 828 Old 05-18-2019, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Up and running with the mini(one seat)mega(18")BOSS today

It was actually easier to make than the dual push-pull 12" setup i tried earlier. But tall !!
So it is full iso with the stack MA on top and front iso on the MA’s.
This is the BOSS «unit».



With the stacked MA’s in the rear(this project too was made from scrap pieces to test it).



View from the rear.



Below.



Front.



Here can be seen the bottom iso’s for the BOSS and the top layer iso’s for the MA’s.



Looks kind of silly, LOL.



First impressions.

PROS.
This is insane! The 18" BOSS has the power to shake you silly, holy cow!! It is defenitely a upgrade over 2x12" JBL, that’s for sure, even with 3 inch clearance under the plattform, it moves almost to the floor, LOL. But it also bottoms out, if i push it.
It is violent, and the closest i can think of is the BK’s, from 15 to 30-40hz. The 18" doesn’t seem to have same problem as the 12", i can actually run it full(LFE) range, and it doesn’t sound overbeaing like the 12" does, funny enough.

This is the highest number i have recorded on VS! It goes to LIMIT on the Z axis, that’s a given, but the other numbers is just staggering, new record on The Meg clip, LOL.

Old stack MA+BK on top, left is front iso, right is full iso.
And SI18 BOSS +stack MA in the bottom, boss level matched TR wise to the left, and normal level to the right.



CONS:
The plattform height !! It is just silly! I don’t think i can live with that, LOL. It feels like i am sitting on a throne, LOL. This kind of height on a plattform requires a big, full plattform, not just something under your seat.
The jiggle! It is so annoying when your slightest movement in the seat results in a jiggle and keeps jiggling.

Still no single digit from the BOSS!!
Even with the MA’s on full iso, it flat out outperforms the 18" BOSS in the single digits! With just one layer of MA! Dual layer is just in another league! And still on full iso!

That was the AHA- moment i had when in preparation for this test i went back to proper front iso only stack MA The presice, nuanced, detailed TR power of the MA, as it should be.

So i am testing more tomorrow, have some more ideas, and i want to test the downfiring SLAPS too, but i am considering going back to the stack MA+BK, as that is still the best total package i have had so far. Optimal function of the stack MA, no compromises, and the BK’s could still hammer you silly even in a front iso only setup. Something the BOSS can’t do. And if a 18" can’t do it, no amount of 12"s can either

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post #694 of 828 Old 05-18-2019, 07:55 PM
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^^^

WOW man!! what a rig up you got there with that huge 18" sub fit in like that. Very impressive to say the least, as always the way you managed to get in all in there!!

Nice tests too! Yeah I would imagine that 18 has got some crazy power in that 15-30hz area like you say!! But I hear ya on the CONS. I bet it really does feel like your WAY up there. I'm at about 7" now with isos on top with MAs and its high. But actually its just about perfect feeling now and my wife even said the other day that it feels more immersive with the Video because it our eyes up at about 1/3 the way up the screen in scope mode, which I think is about perfect. BUT, 3+ more inches would feel way the hell up there for sure.

Yeah the super jiggle is crazy huh and not sure I'm a fan of it either.

And no singles and can bottom it out too, even with the 18"!!!??? WTF!!

Damn!! But I guess it doesn't surprise me even though I had high hopes with the 18" in the BOSS config!!

So my thoughts so far with all the testing I've done with my little ol 12's. Is that there is just not enough low end down under about 15hz with it on isos (fully isolated, which what is prescribed for BOSS), and when you try to push up the lower end with EQ/LS or whatever and/or really up the gain, bottoming happens pretty easily actually, which I just HATE and cant handle!!! Sounds like it can even happen with the 18" (which sucks), but probably can be pushed a lot harder before you hit that bottom.

The only way I can get the low end TR way the heck up there and NOT bottom on the really heavy duty ULF sound tracks, is by putting the BOSS riser on the floor with NO isos under the riser, therefore making it really not a BOSS (baffle open sub shaker) at all, but a sub woofer riser that is sealed, just like Scott Simonian and his 18's in his. The only problem with this (well, it may or may not be a problem depending on how its integrated with your other subs), is that you most definitely get SPL from it. I ran a REW sweep on mine the other day and it reads just like a sealed sub. Luckily it doesn't cancel and only adds. It adds about 4-5db in the meaty (20-40hz range with it LPF'd at 30hz with 12db/oct slope.

I can get some pretty damn crazy TR readings from it with only 1 JBL in a sealed box (1 box per seat) or even 2 per seat, but get the SPL with it. If I take off one side of the box, opening it up so its not sealed any more, making it a BOSS, it looses a ton of low end TR , but looses the SPL too (or most of it anyway).

The TR does feel pretty fantastic when its on the floor (or even floated, besides the lacking low end and the bottoming), better than what I remember from my previous setup with no sub riser in the equation. But I may need to revisit it one more time just to make sure. It seems to be pretty darn good in conjunction with the MAs and BKs, but the VNFs will have to be raised up because they just don't pound me as hard with them being about 7" lower now. I'm missing that and put my MBM in there for while, which helps a ton! I've gotta have something behind me bringing the slam, or it just feels lacking, at least in the MB chest slam area!

So, the BOSS is a no go for me too, at least with it fully isolated, as I just can't get enough low end under 15hz with it and keep bottoming the drivers when trying to do so (and surprisingly my MAs and VNFs aren't as good or combine as good when the BOSS is fully isolated too). Now with it setting on the floor, which makes it a sub riser (not a BOSS), I love the TR from it, at least down to 8-10hz and singles can even be felt pretty good from it. It also seems to combine great with my MAs and BKs and also VNFS. I just have to deal with the SPL and will have to work integrating it with my other subs so its not too much SPL.

So I've wondered why in the hell I could get so much TR from it setting on the ground with NO isos. It just seems weird kinda like we talked about in our PMs a while back. Well it's because it's a sealed box (or subwoofer now) basically and all the TR can still really be felt by setting on it (just with less X and Y axis). I realized this when I went back and looked at Scott's sealed sub riser the other day, which has NO isos either. Mine is just a smaller leaky version of his with my 12's instead of 18's, but surprisingly still really brings the TR. Just go take a look at one his old VS readings of EOT for his sub riser. That thing brings it all the way down deep. Check it out HERE in his post number 2 of his thread. Keep in mind also that the reading is in g's, not m's. So it's really hitting up round 1e+01, no 1e-01. So, now it makes sense to me and he was able to get those kind of readings with NO BKs or MAs or NO isos. Well, I don't know that it makes sense, but I can get some pretty great TR and reading too (probably not quite as crazy as his, but still good) from a much smaller version with no isos. Crazy but it's true. Makes me wonder what he would think of it if he put the whole riser up on isos. It would still be sealed then (no an open baffle), but just floating/jiggly. I wonder if he would loose any of his low end TR or gain a little?

Anyway, didn't mean to get too far into that but kind of ties into what you found even with the mega 18" boss down low. I'm looking forward to the rest of your tests. And yep, wont surprise me at all if you end up back with your previous setup with stacked MAs + BKs + VNFs. That thing was insane and didn't set you up on a throne to get it.

I REALLY appreciate you trying the 18's out and sharing our results with us. Besides the bottoming and lacking super lows compared to our MAs, it really is damn impressive on the VS measurements!!
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post #695 of 828 Old 05-18-2019, 08:16 PM
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My 11.4.12 "Franken-Atmos" living room.

That is crazy you’re bottoming an SI 18” out that easy. And having the single chair riser that high does look a bit like a throne for a TR bass king.

I’m going to dial my 6 BOSS drivers in as low as I can get them without bottoming, but it won’t be until next week until it’s finished. I like how natural they are across their bandwidth and they blend seamlessly with the MA’s. I never had a proper BK setup with soft isos, but when I tried a pair of the Advance, I wasn’t impressed at all with what they provided. Whether the isos make a huge difference there or if a step up to the LFE was needed, I can’t say. But I love what the BOSS brings in its simplicity and lack of unpleasant noises, much like Crowsons in that regard.

If adding 3 more JBL’s is a lost cause to wind up with the same output from 15-30Hz where I don’t really need any more TR, I guess I’ll find out soon enough. With what was previously mentioned, it seems a sealed riser or a lot of MA’s are about the only reasonable way to reach high TR output into the single digits.
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MA’s: Crowson Tech x2
Processing: Denon X4200, NU6KDSP, 3KDSP
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post #696 of 828 Old 05-18-2019, 11:08 PM - Thread Starter
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@SBuger : i hear you and agree with everthing you say. I was actually going to mention comparing your no-iso to Scott sub riser, as it is basically the same thing, and that all makes sense.
Yeah, i am kind of bummed on the single digits from the BOSS. Don’t get me wrong, from 15hz up, it is the best it has felt so far, it is amazing and insane, but this comes at the price of the totally bonkers single digits from my optimized stacked MA setup. And the single digits is what we are chasing.

It is kind of like with subs: midbass and SPL is easy, it is the ULF that is hard.

Actually the 2xJBL BOSS was enough from 15hz up, so that is easy. And this was also where the BK’s shine, they had headroom up the whazoo

That being said, i listened to some music this morning while forming a plan for the day, and DAAAAMN it sounded nice! The SI BOSS has such a weight and heft to the low end, it is awsome. However music, as we now is more up in the wheelhouse where the BOSS would work best

The BOSS is a extremely potent patent, no doubt about it, and this 18" version is totally insane, but it is simply not for the single digits.

@Sekosche : yeah, well i manage to bottom out my sono subs too with one channel of NU6K on each SI, so managing it without a box, is no problem
You going from 3 to 6 JBL’s would probably be a noticable improvement, as i believe SBuger noticed too, and i agree it sound very natural, it’s just that i don’t need more in that aera, it’s down low i need improvement. And i got it from the stack MA’s.
And yes, even though the MA’s improved with the iso’s, it was the BK’s that REALLY loved them, espesially hampered with a front iso only setup. But as i have said before, that was 12lb slugs, vs some grams mms, so not a fair comparison.

And speaking of easy: slapping a couple of MA under it and screwing a couple of BK’s to the chassis is pretty easy in my book too ;(

Here is a VS of each component, somewhat level matched. Actually surprised the NF was so up in there, this is 1x Si18 behind the seat and a 4x JBL box in the middle position behind couch.

Upper pics is MA 1 and 2 layer, and bottom is NF and SI BOSS. They all look very good actually.


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post #697 of 828 Old 05-19-2019, 04:49 AM - Thread Starter
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This just in : ENDGAME !!!!




All i can say is: HOLY MOLY!!!.




More later .......
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post #698 of 828 Old 05-19-2019, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
This just in : ENDGAME !!!!



All i can say is: HOLY MOLY!!!.



More later .......


Lol, “What’s in the box?!”
~Brad Pitt, Seven
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post #699 of 828 Old 05-19-2019, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
This just in : ENDGAME !!!!


All i can say is: HOLY MOLY!!!.




More later .......
OH HELL!!!! I have a feeling that my 18's in VNFs are gonna be coming out of their boxes and into a face down position BOSS behind my seats like yours is in now ...LOL Can't wait to hear about this!!! ..cause when you say 'END GAME' ..I believe you cause I know you know's about this stuff hahahahaha

AWESOME stuff man, I love the way you keep this TR game so exciting!!!!!!! Seriously, I love it, please keep it coming!!!

EDIT: damn ...that 18 really does just look like a MONSTER of a driver in a BOSS config, especially behind where you can really see it
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post #700 of 828 Old 05-19-2019, 08:28 AM
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Nooo, I need to quit reading your thread. It doesn’t look that different than being under the chair, is it like a cantilevered design with a different effect? I swear I’m done tinkering for a while after the BOSS 2.0, or my Wife 1.0 might murder me.
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post #701 of 828 Old 05-19-2019, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Are you guys sure you are ready for this??

Here comes my slow sunday tinkering:



Yes, finally made some awsome progress today. Didn’t like the whole setup i made yesterday, so a last effort needed to be done, before i gave up and went back to my old setup. BOY AM I GLAD I GAVE IT ONE MORE TRY!!

So because of the stupid height needed to have the 18" under the seat, i thought what about cantilever: behind the seat?
As it was under the seat, it was more to the front and didn’t lift my body as i wanted. So mounting it behind the seat would concentrate more movement to my main body, not just the feet. This also ment i could fit in both the MA stack AND my beloved BK’s again. So the BK lift in front, MA’s in the middle and BOSS in the rear, LOL.
And this was again even easier to make than the plattform yesterday, i even used the same parts, LOL.

And i got some more clearance for the SI by mounting the driver from above on the MDF instead of under as i did yesterday. Win-win.
So this is from underside.



Everything setup 1xSI18 BOSS cantilevered, 2x2 stack of MA’s and 2xBK’s. Whoo-hoo.



Easy peasy



Nestled in between the NF’s. Actually made worse TR from the NF’s, since there is now a bit more distance to seat



Here is each component, again somewhat level matched. But as i said the NF’s, upper left took a beating compared to yesterday, because there isn’t room for it right behind the seat. Next project

Look at that beatiful curve on th BK’s !
BOSS doesn’t look as clean here, but no worries



Here is all summed, and it looks insane! Ruler flat Z curve, and Y is also insanely flat and nice summed too. And extension below 10hz on Z
The Meg clip again to the right. This is still with all components level matched, and it feels AAAAWWSOME!!



Holy moly this is nuts! The force, precision, nuances, levels and displacement is just of the charts, LOL. I am all giggly !!
And each component adds to the mix: MA’s down low for the wobble, BK’s for the intense force above 12-15hz and the BOSS kind of overlaps them both and adds just a insane ferrosity and just shakes you to the core. Totally positively insanely nuts!!

If you mute one components, something is missing, so the coolest part of it all is how well they work together.

Some small details left to optimize, like placement and number of iso’s, i am now using 6 total under the plattform and 2 more in the front MA setup.

AND THE BEST PART?: total height is 5 inches!! One more than my old one. Totally acceptable

I still can’t believe the cantilever edition worked so much better than the proper one, LOL.

I CAN’t stop giggling, LOL.

How’s that for a turn around from saturday to sunday ??


Ohh, and i might even get a bit more with the SLAPS experiment

Anyway i need to work some more on the NF problem, but raising a NF box is a LOT more acceptable than raising the seat, LOL.



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post #702 of 828 Old 05-19-2019, 09:14 AM
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^^^ @Nalleh ....LORD OF TR (this is my new nickname for you ok LOL) ...I bow to you!!!!! Wicked as hell bro!!!. WOW ..what a setup to have all components in there and only 5" height!!! YES!!!! Amazing VS graphs too!!!

Thanks for paving the way my friend and doing these experiments, I think I'm gonna follow in your footsteps as best I can with your setup!!!! Not sure I can get two BK under my MLP like you did up front bolted to the main platform (I can do one with the space I have to work with) but may work great bolted to the actual frame of the seating like I used to do (I can get 2 of them in there that way). Also I'll need to go back to MBMs firing into the back of my seat chest level up above the 18" drivers for BOSS cantilever. Will need to make some platforms for those to get them over the top of the 18's.

So when you do this for 2 seats, are you gonna make it all connected with both 18's in BOSS (as well as MAs and BKs) in ONE big platform? I assume so. I'll need to make it ONE platform for 3 seats (instead of 3 separate).

Yes I'm sure you are super giggly right now, you should be I am just looking at hearing about it. It's got me stoked to try it on my too!!

Thanks again mate!!!

EDIT: You've still got a piece of MDF under your seats for the MAs to push up against and distribute the TR better right? Also, your MAs are floated full iso too with iso under 2x6's (or 2x4's) right, to help with the BOSS and BKs full iso?
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post #703 of 828 Old 05-19-2019, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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@SBuger : Oh, thanks man, you and me are never satisfied it seems, so we drive each other to new heights. You made me try the BK’s and i loved them(which was happily re-affirmed today, they are monsters), and lately you made me try the BOSS. Wasn’t too impressed initially, but kept at it and even got the 18" to improve further. Was disappointed yesterday, but FINALLY found a good solution today, so yeah, i am STOKED!! These are the moments we put in all those hours to experience Sure there are some duds now and then, but by not giving up, it usually gets sorted

Yes, this was a one seat test, and now that i have the template, i can look into making one for the whole couch. I think i will keep the Stack MA on my seat only, to get full impact from it, and use single layer in the other seat(mostly just my brother using it, and not as into this as me anyway), but otherwise same for both seats. So yeah, i can make a rather easy "open" plattform, just like the one i made only wider to fit the couch.

IF you try 18" in this cantilever config, and the difference is as big as in my case, my guess is your JBL’s is gone, man Puny 12"s

Yes, i too need to make a plattform above the BOSS driver for the NF’s, need to think a bit about that, but that is a less problem than the 9 inch high throne was, LOL.

I am telling you, this upgrade was MASSIVE, and a gamechanger!! I am still kind of wondering how it was possible after all the work i put into the prevoius versions, LOL.

Again while i am typing this, i am listening to music, and it is such a difference, WOW ! Such heft, weight and fullness to the low end. Now i get what Tim was talking about, HAHA.


EDIT: yes on your edit, still mdf under couch, and full iso under MA’s(2x4 laying flat, so just 2 inch height) Helped a lot with the extra rear iso’s at the rear of plattform. Having 6 iso’s also helped on the jiggle plattform i mentioned yesterday. Everything was improved today, LOL.
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post #704 of 828 Old 05-19-2019, 09:42 AM
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^^ awesome man! (Yeah we seem to push each other in good ways it seems and great stuff usually comes out of it )

So does that mean you are running the BOSS full range now or at least at your normal LPF of abut 50hz? I remember you saying that the 18" seems to feel better up higher now than the 12" JBLs did.

Yeah my 12's are out the door and the 18's are fixing to take over
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post #705 of 828 Old 05-19-2019, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
^^ awesome man! (Yeah we seem to push each other in good ways it seems and great stuff usually comes out of it )

So does that mean you are running the BOSS full range now or at least at your normal LPF of abut 50hz? I remember you saying that the 18" seems to feel better up higher now than the 12" JBLs did.

Yeah my 12's are out the door and the 18's are fixing to take over
Yeah, the BOSS is full range, no extra LPF. AND i don’t need ANY EQ on it either. Running flat and full range, LOL. Insane i tell you

Yes, with a cantilever setup you should be able to ditch that monster plattform of yours, and get back down on the ground(so to speak).
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post #706 of 828 Old 05-19-2019, 09:59 AM
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That's awesome, I'm hoping to be able to run mine that way too.

Do you think I should go with MDF this time instead of Plywood? Don't know that it really matter I guess.
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post #707 of 828 Old 05-19-2019, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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That's awesome, I'm hoping to be able to run mine that way too.

Do you think I should go with MDF this time instead of Plywood? Don't know that it really matter I guess.
Honestly use what you are comfortable with and have access to

I have a hard time finding plywood where i live, so i have used MDF, as that is available and cheap nearby. Would be interesting to try plywood though, as Tim says it is stiffer than MDF. I don’t know, as i don’t have acess
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post #708 of 828 Old 05-19-2019, 10:42 AM
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Just thinking of how I'm gonna put all this together for my seats. I'm think I'm going to go with stacked MAs too this time around, but mine will only be one stack under each seat since I have 6 MAs with 3 seats. So still 2 per seat, but stacked this time around.

I'm just trying to figure out how that will work best with a piece of plywood over the top of them for the MAs to push up against and for my seat feet to sit on top of plywood.

When you get a chance, would you mind snapping a pic of how much higher your stacked MAs stick up past/above your 2x4's and how it looks with your base mdf board that is attached to your seating that the MAs are pushing up against (which is not really even touching the 2x4's then right cause the MAs need room to work, at least in the back where the MAs are?). Sorry, I'm just kind of having a hard to time visualizing this and the best approach for me to get this done.

Hopefully all that made sense.

EDIT: Ok I think I've got it, with stacked MAs the top of the top MAs must be up about an inch over the 2x4's and then you have isos up front like normal like it's supposed to be and to keep it level right?
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post #709 of 828 Old 05-19-2019, 10:46 AM
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Wow, those graphs are buttery smooth!

So do you think it’s the shorter riser, BK’s back in full force or the cantilever BOSS effect helping out the most from where the last setup left you lacking? My BOSS 2.0 is essentially a half cantilever design, with 3 drivers under the front of the couch and 3 at the very back that are outside the frame, as this was the only way I could fit them all. I wonder if the rocking motion front/back or Y axis would be increased leaving only the rear three drivers on. Something I might play around with!
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post #710 of 828 Old 05-19-2019, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
Just thinking of how I'm gonna put all this together for my seats. I'm think I'm going to go with stacked MAs too this time around, but mine will only be one stack under each seat since I have 6 MAs with 3 seats. So still 2 per seat, but stacked this time around.

I'm just trying to figure out how that will work best with a piece of plywood over the top of them for the MAs to push up against and for my seat feet to sit on top of plywood.

When you get a chance, would you mind snapping a pic of how much higher your stacked MAs stick up past/above your 2x4's and how it looks with your base mdf board that is attached to your seating that the MAs are pushing up against (which is not really even touching the 2x4's then right cause the MAs need room to work, at least in the back where the MAs are?). Sorry, I'm just kind of having a hard to time visualizing this and the best approach for me to get this done.

Hopefully all that made sense.

EDIT: Ok I think I've got it, with stacked MAs the top of the top MAs must be up about an inch over the 2x4's and then you have isos up front like normal like it's supposed to be and to keep it level right?
Yes, you are correct on all counts.

Here’s where it differs in EU speak.

Our 2x4 isn’t 2x4, it is 48x98mm = 1.89x3.85 inch.

And the MA’s are 1.1 inch each x 2 = 2.2inch + what ever spacer thickness you use. Last i used 3/4 inch board, but this time i used some scrap hardwood floor pieces that are ~0.3 inch thick. So a total of 2.5 inch for a stack. So i have about 0.6 inch clearance between the top of the 2x4 and the bottom of the couch(MDF board).
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post #711 of 828 Old 05-19-2019, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow, those graphs are buttery smooth!

So do you think it’s the shorter riser, BK’s back in full force or the cantilever BOSS effect helping out the most from where the last setup left you lacking? My BOSS 2.0 is essentially a half cantilever design, with 3 drivers under the front of the couch and 3 at the very back that are outside the frame, as this was the only way I could fit them all. I wonder if the rocking motion front/back or Y axis would be increased leaving only the rear three drivers on. Something I might play around with!
It’s the BOSS cantilever mounting! Granted the BK adds to it, but somehow the cantilever version worked so much better in my setup, it is uncanny. It may be because when you sit in the seat reclined, your center of gravity is mostly rearword of the couch, and as i said, yesterday it was mounted more to the front under the seat. It moves your main body more.

Logic would dictate that cantilever would be less effective, but clearly not in this case

That being said, the BK works wonders in that forward position, so it all worked out fine, LOL.

And yes, the rocking motion also increased with the cantilever. It is clearly seen on the Y-axis curves from today, and that was what i hoped for
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post #712 of 828 Old 05-19-2019, 03:31 PM
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The plattform height !! It is just silly! I don’t think i can live with that, LOL. It feels like i am sitting on a throne, LOL.
CONFIRMED! Nalleh is sitting on the iron throne after tonight's GoT finally.

I think we need to design a throne now that's a bunch of subs and MA fused together like the Iron Throne. Bring together the kingdoms of far field, NF, VNF, BOSS, BK, and Crowson into one realm.

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Yes, you are correct on all counts.

Here’s where it differs in EU speak.

Our 2x4 isn’t 2x4, it is 48x98mm = 1.89x3.85 inch.
FYI, 2x4s aren't 2x4s here either. That's the nominal size. Actual size is 1.5"x3.5". Pretty much all dimensioned lumbar is given in nominal size which is the size when it's first rough sawn before drying and planing. So if anyone is converting Nalleh's EU sizing to US sizing keep that difference in mind.
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post #713 of 828 Old 05-19-2019, 10:25 PM
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And yes, the rocking motion also increased with the cantilever. It is clearly seen on the Y-axis curves from today, and that was what i hoped for

Aaaaaah yeah and awesome, I’m really curious how mine will turn out now! Hopefully I get the best of both worlds with half the BOSS drivers firing under and behind the seating; I’ve also thought the two sets of three might somewhat cancel each other out based on their position and lose the rocking effect that would occur from the cantilever. The Z axis movement should still improve even if the Y doesn’t. Should be done later this week...I think it will rock either way.
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post #714 of 828 Old 05-19-2019, 10:40 PM
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I get a lot of questions about my setup, so i tought i could make a thread explaining it a little more. And maybe some pics too.

Short version: i use more than one Atmos AVR's to expand beyond the 7.1.4/9.1.2 hardware limit on todays affordable gear.

Updated Mars 2019: stacked Crowson motion actuators and Buttkickers, post 498.

Updated may 2018: new nearfield solution with 12x12" JBL’s behind the couch. Starts at post 281.


UPDATED MARCH 2018

Ok, here we go again. Since reading about the new Denon flagship receiver capable of 13.1 and all amps built in, i had to make changes. So i sold the 5200 and 6200 and have now gotten the brand new AVC-X8500H. So no i can either do 9.1.4 or 7.1.6 with JUST the 8500, or as i have it configured for now 7.1.6 from the 8500 and 9.1.2 from the 7200 for a total of 9.1.6. And this is as correct 9.1.6 as you can get in this price range. And i can also do a (nearly) correct DTS:X 9.1.6. Auro is coming in a May update and will be 13.1. So i should be covered either way.

And if i want(and will test later on) i can still do the 13.1.8 setup i had earlier, but now i just need these two AVR’s. The 8500 for 9.1.4 (FH+RH), and the 7200 setup with 5.1.4+W for special wides and special surround + TF+TR.

So gear now is:

Gear.
Oppo BDP-203 UHD player(regionfree)
XBOX ONE X
Canal Digital HD PVR satellite-box
Apple TV3
(Darbee Darblet and MARSEILLE MCABLE for 1080P content)
Denon AVC-X8500H
Denon AVR-X7200WA
Yamaha RX-V3067
3 X Inuke NU6000DSP
JVC DLA RS600
Dreamscreen V2 dynagrey 120" screen
Samsung UE65JU7005 UHDTV
Harmony Ultimate.
Front=Klipsch RF-82 mk1
Center=Klipsch RC-64 mk2
Wide= Dynavoice Challenger M65 V3
Surr= Klipsch RS52
WideSur1/Sur2=Klipsch RS42
Surrback= KEF3005SE
Height speakers= 10x KEF3005SE
Nearfield mid-bass= Behringer B1200D
LFE= 2 X Sonosubs with 2 X SI18HT v2 in Dual Opposed config.
4x Crowson Shadow8 motion actuators
MiniDSP 2X4 balanced

Read more in post 259


OLDER SETUP:


Did a quick and dirty diagram of the setup.
Blue speakers powered by the 7200.
Red speakers powered by the 6200.
Yellow speakers powered by the 5200.





I will try to have the first post as updated about the setup as possible, and then take the details as we go.

Edit: updated Feb -17:

My HT is in the right half of my living room, and the room dimensions are:

5.1x4.1x2.4 meter

16.5Wx13.5Dx7.8H feet


EDIT sep17:

Or about 1800 cubic feet
(+ the other half).

Gear.
Panasonic DMP-UB900 UHD player
HD FURY Integral
Oppo BDP-103 BD player
Darbee Darblet
Canal Digital HD PVR satellite-box
Apple TV3
PS3 (fat)
XBOX360
Denon AVR-X7200WA
Denon AVR-X6200W
Denon AVR-X5200W
Yamaha RX-V3067
Inuke NU6000DSP
JVC DLA X500R
Dreamscreen V2 dynagrey 120" screen
Samsung UE65JU7005 UHDTV

Front=Klipsch RF-82 mk1
Wide= Dynavoice Challenger M65 V3
Center=Klipsch RC-64 mk2
Surr= Klipsch RS52
WideSur1/Sur2=Klipsch RS42
Surrback= KEF3005SE
Height speakers= 10x KEF3005SE
Nearfield mid-bass= Behringer B1200D
LFE= SVS PB12-Plus/2
ULF= PSA S3000i +4x Crowson Shadow8 motion actuators
MiniDSP 2X4 balanced

All controlled by a Logitech Harmony Ultimate with the hub+4 extenders.

So my earlier setup was a Denon 7200/5200 combo, to get 7.1.4 + Wides + 8 channels of height speakers, for a 9.1.8 setup, explained further down on page(behing the spoiler), but i recently got a 6200 to gain HDMI 2.0 and DTS:X on the second AVR. Then i discovered "Special Wides" descrided in post 67 in this thread. Since i now had 3 Atmos AVR's, this gave me the opportunity to gain both 2 set of wides, AND keep my 8 channels of heights, for a grand total of 13.1.8 in native Atmos and 9.1.8 on DTS:X.




In daily TV use, i have just the 7200 playing DSU in a 7.1.4 setup, but it has all 14 speakers connected, for a 7.1.4 Atmos/DTS:X or 10.1 Auro 3D setup.

So in native Atmos, setup is as follows:
7200 switched to 9.1.2 for fronts @ 25 degrees, "Pure Wides" @ 50 degrees, "Pure Surrounds @ 85 degrees and Surround backs @150 degrees. Playing only 9.1.0(note 1)(note5).



6200 setup as 5.1.4+Wides(note2) for Wides/Sur1 @ 70 degrees, Sur2/Rears @110 degrees and Top Front+ Top Rear. Playing Wides, Sur2, and Tops(note4).



5200 setup as 5.1.4 for Front Height and Rear Height. Playing 0.0.4
(note 1)(note 2)(note3).



So basically the 7200 plays 9.1.0, while the 5200 plays 0.0.4(heights).
And 6200 plays 5.0.4(Wide/Sur1+Sur2/Rear+Tops).



As you can see in the little channel indicators in front display, the 7200(to the left) plays SB and WIDES, the 6200(bottom right) plays wides but no SB's and the 5200 (top right) plays no wides and no SB's.
As before, they are linked together via HDMI ZONE2 daisy-chained to the next AVR.

I only need on/off and main volume changes on the 6200/5200, so one original remote(and Harmony ultimate) handles that very well.

Note 1: both the 7200 and 5200 front and rear heights pre-out goes to the main and zone2 outputs of the Yama, so i just use the remote to switch the heights currently beeing used between the 7200 and 5200. So when the 7200 is in 9.1.2 mode, i let the 5200 power the heights.

Note 2: both the 6200 and 5200 wides pre-out goes to zone3 on the Yama, so i can choose wich one powers the Wide/sur1 speakers. This way i can use Neo:X wides from the 5200 in DSU(wich do not use wides).

Note 3: in Auro 3D, the 7200 powers the full 10.1 possible. But i can copy the 5200 surrounds(in Auro mode) to the surround back speakers(silent in Auro 10.1) for Auro "12.1" This way i get more "rear fill" than with just the 7200 surrounds @85 degrees. This is done with a dual source speaker switch. I can also power the Surround Heights with the 5200 if i change amp assign to FH+SH, for Auro "14.1".

Note 4: i have a "Center Height" speaker above the screen. This is connected to the center output of the 6200, and works as a "dialog lift", and also helps pannings between the front heights.

Note 5: the 7200 powers a VOG(sub2 pre-out) used in Auro 3D. In other formats, i can matrix a VOG using PL2 in the Yama extracted from the rear heights.


After all this was connected, all 3 AVR's got a full Pro calibration. This took a while...



I got a third !?! Kef3005SE 5.1 speaker kit for this upgrade. I switched out the surround backs from Klipsch to Kef, and the rear heights from white to black Kef's.



And got rid of the bookshelfs used as Surround Heights for white Kef's.
See the Kef sub on top of the Bluray rack? I now have bass-managment on the rear heights




Older setup behind spoiler, no longer used. Too complicated

Spoiler!


I have a lot of flexibility with this setup, but it is not advisable to leave the remote with grandma

Some pics of the recently redone living room.





























Dude, that is an ingenious setup. I couldn't imagine even attempting to do something like that. Kudos to you bro, you have the best of three worlds. You get to experience all three codecs without compromising. Would your setup also be ready for Imax enhanced if you chose to go that route?
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post #715 of 828 Old 05-19-2019, 10:44 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^^ Thanks man

Well, the UHD player and AVR is IMAX ready, but neither TV or projector is, so i guess no on the picture side, but yes on the sound side

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post #716 of 828 Old 05-19-2019, 11:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
CONFIRMED! Nalleh is sitting on the iron throne after tonight's GoT finally.

I think we need to design a throne now that's a bunch of subs and MA fused together like the Iron Throne. Bring together the kingdoms of far field, NF, VNF, BOSS, BK, and Crowson into one realm.



FYI, 2x4s aren't 2x4s here either. That's the nominal size. Actual size is 1.5"x3.5". Pretty much all dimensioned lumbar is given in nominal size which is the size when it's first rough sawn before drying and planing. So if anyone is converting Nalleh's EU sizing to US sizing keep that difference in mind.
LOL, thanks man, that made me laugh
As of yesterday i actually de-throned by my own will, and was more happy as a result, LOL.

And thanks for the info on the lumbar dimensions. I wasn’t sure, but just wanted to tell what i had to deal with, but the point is nevertheless to always measure and make sure the dimensions are what you think they are

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Aaaaaah yeah and awesome, I’m really curious how mine will turn out now! Hopefully I get the best of both worlds with half the BOSS drivers firing under and behind the seating; I’ve also thought the two sets of three might somewhat cancel each other out based on their position and lose the rocking effect that would occur from the cantilever. The Z axis movement should still improve even if the Y doesn’t. Should be done later this week...I think it will rock either way.
Yes tha will be interesting to hear the result

@SBuger : BTW in the 1x18" vs 4x12" debacle: since the 18" works so gangbusters in a centilevered config, the 12" might do the same! Case in point: i could try to replace the 18" BOSS with 4 xJBL’s in the same place behind the seat. This would require much less heigth and would make placing the NF’s much easier.
So before you cannibalize your 18" NF boxes, you might want to test your 6x JBL in a cantilever first.

The genious part of this cantilever part is it leaves room the other systems, like MA’s and BK’s. And better room for NF’s. I would only need to remove the 18" MDF insert and put in a 4x12" insert instead to test it, and i will. Don’t even need to remove the seat

@aron7awol : This cantilever BOSS could be your way in using your now useless UM18 farfields What to you think?
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post #717 of 828 Old 05-20-2019, 07:26 AM
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Good idea, yeah I may try that as well and interested in your thoughts on the 18 vs 12's in cantilevered position as well. Would love to know if the power diff from the driver size feels significant in this position too, making the 18's that much more worth it.

I've got the platform all worked out I think for the 18's in cantilevered position, but can try the 12's in there as well before I rip the 18" drivers out of my cabs first. Also I want to try raising my 18" VNFs up higher to be where they used to be up on my back to see what I think first before I go to destroying stuff LOL, to go along with my 'sub riser' 12" JBLs before I change everything out, cause I've really been loving it this way too, just need more slam from the VNFs (they are too low now that I'm 7" higher). The drivers in VNFs really do need to be very close to you to make much difference at all IMO, for that PV feel. I am kind of afraid I'll miss my VNFs PV feel right behind me, even if the 18's in the cantilevered BOSS kill for TR. But maybe my MBM 1200D (and two more for the other seats) right behind me would give me that slam form 45hz and up for the chest cave feel.

I wanted to ask you, what kind of negative delay are you using on your BOSS to combine well with the others? Still the same as the MAs and BKs at about 19-20ms?

@aron7awol - do it man like Nalleh suggested, use those 18's like he just did in the cantilevered BOSS ..one behind each chair. If nothing else, I think you'll be blown away by the feel and power of it in the 15hz and over region, since you've never experienced the BK LFE's like me and Nalleh. You've got nothing to loose since you've already got those 18's setting there doing nothing. Just a bit of time is all if it doesn't work out
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post #718 of 828 Old 05-20-2019, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^ Yeah if using multiple 12" in cantilever BOSS would equal 1x 18", that would be perfect, as that would make it possible to use the 18’s as NF’s. The little i tested, they seem to add more TR than my 4xJBL in NF, as the earlier VS showed. And yes they need to be close, as evidenced by the much less TR from my last VS where the NF were farther away, probably by a ft or so. And as mentioned 12" in cantilever would not require the NF’s to be so tall mounted. Win-win.

Yeah, i probably did a 100 VS measurements on the configs saturday and sunday, trying to find each drop of combined TR. With 3 components just in the TR divison + NF’s and FF’s, there is a lot to test. I tried every possible combo of phase and delay on each component and to see how they added, and yes i ended up with all on the same delay as the MA’s.

HOWEVER: what clearly gave the best curves, highest numbers AND felt best was with the BOSS AND BK OUT !! of phase with the MA’s !

BTW, in order to put the NF’s back in place with the 18" BOSS as i have it now, i need a 14 inch height plattform to clear the driver, LOL. It is still room for them behind the couch, but they will protrude above the seat back. So if the 12" could be used instead for BOSS duty, the plattform would only need to be ~ half that, like 6-7 inch height.
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post #719 of 828 Old 05-20-2019, 09:29 AM
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^^^ Thanks for the info!

Hmmm, interesting on your BOSS and BK out of phase and the MAs in phase since your driver is facing down and BKs upright like normal. I run my BOSS and BKs out of phase with MAs too (while MAs are normal phase), BUT my drivers are facing up for the BOSS and the BKs are mounted upside down under the riser, so each of them on their own need to be phase inverted, and can easily be felt to combine best with MAs and VNFs even without VS measurements.

BUT, that is with 'sub riser' not BOSS. With BOSS (fully floated with isos), the BOSS still combines best with the VNFs with BOSS inverted phase, BUT MAs cancel (at least under 15-20hz and below) with the BOSS. Weird!

Seems to be a bit tricky getting it all right (or at least max combining from them all at all frequencies with BOSS).

Yeah I'm kinda torn with the whole VNF subs thing and the 18's in the BOSS cantilevered or even the 12's in the BOSS positioned the same way. If I used the 18's in the BOSS, then my 18" VNFs are gone (unless I buy more 18's and amps which I don't want to do). That leaves the 1200d MBM for VNF duty and possibly 2 more for the other two seats that may just really satisfy the heck out of me for slam etc, especially with the MBM positioned perfectly/ideally height wise right behind my upper back at chest level. So that could work out wonderful and may be ALL I need. Even with the 18's VNF setting on the floor too low now (7" too low), if I set the MBM on top of the 18" VNF, it still puts it up just a little too high and has to be back a little too far or it hits the tops of my seats backs when reclined (which is how I always watch movies in the reclined mode).

Ideally, that MBM needs to be abut 7" lower to really get close in behind my upper back/chest area and not hit the tops of the seats. Not having angled cabs make it tough, especially on the 18" when you go to raising them much, IF you want them close to your upper back that is and not have to be moved back away from the chair to not hit the tops of the seatbacks when reclined.

IKD man, I need angled cabs when I go to raising stuff (but don't want to build them lol), IF I want full range VNFs behind me and the 18" in the BOSS cantilevered. MBMs not in angled cabs should do just fine and can get them close to upper back with the 18's in the BOSS. Or maybe even 18" VNFs with 12's in the BOSS cantilevered. Damn, I really do want those 18's in the BOSS though LOL I'm sure they feel quite a bit more powerful in the 20-10hz range and maybe not as overbearing in the 25hz and over range like you say.

sigh ...decisions, decisions

Oh, I also meant to ask you, how much power are you giving your 18" in the BOSS? I'm giving each of my DS4-18's all a single channel of the 6k inuke will give, which is actually on about 1200 watts I think was said around here (not 3000 like the specs say lol). The DS4-18's are rated nearly identical to the UM18-22 (recommended about a 1000-1100 watts max IIRC) and I run them the same way. I'll be using the DS4-18s in the BOSS if I decide to go that way, but may need to set the limiter since they will be free air and not bottom too easy. Not sure the power requirements on your SI 18's, but are you having to set a limiter on them in the inuke?
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Last edited by SBuger; 05-20-2019 at 09:34 AM.
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post #720 of 828 Old 05-20-2019, 11:18 AM
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What you're getting out of the cantilever is great. Unfortunately it also go me thinking.

I had been thinking of building an array of 12s to put VNF right up against the back of my couch. Now this has me thinking, maybe extend my riser back to add another row of subs in the cantilever position. I could then build a single row of 12s for the top edge of the couch that are on on legs rising up from the extension. It would give about 6 12s firing right at chest height VNF plus the extra cantilevered drivers. I could probably do 4 more 12s in the cantilever or possibly 4 15s or 2 18s. Hmm....
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