My 11.4.12 "Franken-Atmos" living room. - Page 26 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #751 of 816 Old 05-23-2019, 06:22 AM
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My 11.4.12 "Franken-Atmos" living room.

I’ll need a 9” shelf to clear the rear drivers for the VNF. Will have to see how it lands on the seating before building one, may have to get creative with angles because when reclined the chairs move back quite a bit so I don’t have a lot of room for clearance, but I did gain 4” by moving the seating to the edge of this larger platform. Not sure how WAF will land with them suspended off the ground...guess we’ll find out.

Edit: I guess I could maybe just suspend them 6” or so and move the platform back to right where the driver magnets hit the VNF cabs and that’ll make up for the 4” distance lost.
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post #752 of 816 Old 05-23-2019, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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^^ Looking great Yeah, depending on how much the seats recline back, using a smaller shelf up to the magnets could be the best option
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post #753 of 816 Old 05-29-2019, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Long one

More VS testing.

Tried with and without the "extra" iso’s on the MA layer, shown in earlier pics. These are strictly not needed for the MA’s as they will utilize the iso’s under the plattform, just as the BK’s and BOSS do. Good news, all measurements shows better values WITHOUT the upper iso’s. So they are gone

So, MA with 2 layer to left, 1 layer on right. Curves look similar, only higher numbers.



Boss.



BK.



Removed the 18" boss, and tested some VNF options with VS.
First of all, here is the difference in TR with the JBL box in the middle position behind the 2 seat couch(to the right of measured seat), or NF (left pic), and right behind seat (right pic), or VNF.
Again, curves are similar, but higher number for VNF.




Here is the 3 different VNF options, from left to right: 4xJBL sealed, 2xJBL +PR, and SI18 sealed. Look at the improved Y-axis on the PR version!! Right in the meat band at 15-30hz!



All these were done with NF box ON THE PLATTFORM!

So i tried to unload the NF box from the plattform, and this was the result.
A lot of TR below 30hz is lost! Seems smart to have the NF’s on the plattform



Here is MA+JBL PR in left pic and Ma+SI18 to right. Look at how the PR extends the Y-axis from ~25hz to below 20hz




And here is all TR together, MA+BK+SI VNF (boss removed) with different settings.
To the left MA and BK are on sub1(FF sub channel) and same phase.
Middle is BK inverted phase.
Right is BK on sub2(NF sub channel) in phase.

All curves look pretty ok, but watching content they feel different.



So i settled on the left curve, but i always check some demo scenes after i am done to listen how it sounds, and i found some new clips from The Meg, this is when the helicopter lands on the rig at sea. Timestamp and setup in title.

And setups are same as pic above. Look and the massive difference in numbers in the middle pic!! Only change from left one is BK are inverted! This one is massively more impressive in feel than the "more correct" left setting.

BK’s on sub2 looks very similar to left pic.



Here is the clip right after the above, and here the table is kind of turned a bit.



So ATM i have no BOSS, but with the setup today it feels pretty darn good, with a lot of shake and wooble, and very punchy too.

These test i could do without building somthing, but next project will be the downfiring PR(will it convert that massive Y-axis spike to Z-axis?), 12" BOSS and BK cantilever.

And then decide final config, LOL.

Crazy times....
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post #754 of 816 Old 05-29-2019, 01:00 PM
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Keep up the excellent work!
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post #755 of 816 Old 05-29-2019, 01:32 PM
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Awesome testing as always Nalleh!!

So what isos are you doing away with on the top platform? The ones on the front of your seats (cause those are the only isos you had on top right, with the MAs in the back of seating?) OR the ones directly under the platform underneath the MAs (middle position)? Have you tried taking those iso under the midway position out yet so that you only have isos underneath the platform on the front and back and not in the middle under the MAs? May make it more 'floaty', which I'm not sure if you want more or less of, maybe less after your comments a while back. Also, the MAs might not perform quite as well without isos under the bottom of platform about where the MAs are located above them on top of the platform. Might or might not effect the BOSS, without the isos under the middle position, IDK.

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post #756 of 816 Old 05-29-2019, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
Awesome testing as always Nalleh!!

So what isos are you doing away with on the top platform? The ones on the front of your seats (cause those are the only isos you had on top right, with the MAs in the back of seating?) OR the ones directly under the platform underneath the MAs (middle position)? Have you tried taking those iso under the midway position out yet so that you only have isos underneath the platform on the front and back and not in the middle under the MAs? May make it more 'floaty', which I'm not sure if you want more or less of, maybe less after your comments a while back. Also, the MAs might not perform quite as well without isos under the bottom of platform about where the MAs are located above them on top of the platform. Might or might not effect the BOSS, without the isos under the middle position, IDK.

The iso’s i was referring to here is the upper ones in front on the "MA layer", not the bottom "BOSS layer". So the bottom BOSS layer is a normal one woth full iso’s(6 of them) and BK’s and BOSS driver solidly attached to the BOSS plattform. On top of that is the MA layer which have MA’s in the rear and iso’s in the front(as a normal MA setup has). These front upper ones are the ones i took out, leaving only the 6 bottom ones under the BOSS plattform. These will still be active for the MA’s, i just replaced the front upper iso’s with wood spacer to match the height of the rear MA’s.

Haha, yes you are correct, i actually tested replacing the middle iso’s just under the MA’s with wood spacers( SO: RIGID IN OTHER WORDS) too, sorry i forgot about that, LOL.
That was a good test to prove what i was mentioning to you earlier about the total picture. Because the individual componenents all actually measured better with no iso’s under the MA’s !!

The "no iso graphs/ wood spacer/rigid" are all to the left in below pics.

MA only. (BOSS and BK’s also measured similarly better, strangely enough)



MA+BOSS+BK. Again, no iso/rigid measures better.



But look here, in The Meg clip full iso measured heaps better, and feels it too



Granted, no iso’s/rigid under the MA’s makes them feel amazing on its own, but when combined with BOSS and BK’s on full iso it was simply better.

PS: note in all of these graphs the Y-axis also have increased numbers.
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post #757 of 816 Old 05-29-2019, 03:09 PM
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^^^ ah ok, gotcha on the isos up top. Yeah I got stronger readings with NO iso on top too and only sitting on the MAs with back feet of seating. The front feet either on the platform with the front of seating angling down a little or blocks like you used to raise the front up to level. But, IIRC I preferred the feel of the isos on top almost every time. Probably because of my rigid seating I'm guessing. Will have to test all that now that I'm on to something different real soon.

Man, that's crazy about the NO isos under the MAs on the bottom layer reading stronger on ALL components and combined on white noise (or sweeps right? ..I think your using REW sweeps). BUT, feels better and reads better on real world content WITH the isos under the MAs. hmmmmmm this stuff is crazy sometimes huh. Got to go with what feels best, and if the VS readings match too, then even better LOL
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post #758 of 816 Old 05-29-2019, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^ @SBuger , yeah, i guess content is King, right? LOL.

Yes, i use sweeps, they are so much better at picking up differences when you tweak, and IMO WN always looks so choppy. At least when i do them, LOL.

Anyway the point isn’t to compare to others, just to see differences in graphs when i tweak, and i find sweep do that much better.

Yeah, well ikind of expected the results from the rigid under MA test, as that would optimize the MA’s work condition, but hinder the BK and BOSS WORK when all combined. I could almost feel they were working a bit against each other, and the timing issue is probably most important in that case, as it kind of gets a rocking motion between the BK and BOSS.

I think this was a case of the negatives of the MA’s on full iso’s was more than compensated with the BK and BOSS(maybe easier to sum the total work), than the positives of having the optimized MA setup (rigid below) with the BK and BOSS kind of fighting against each other.

I guess this all just proves that setup is everything!!

Let me put it this way: there is a MASSIVE difference between the worst and the best setups in these posts! MASSIVE!
So if one just "plugs and play", there is almost guaranteed TR left on the tavle
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post #759 of 816 Old 05-31-2019, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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One 4xJBL sealed converted to 2xJBL with downfiring SLAPS M12



Working this weekend so will test next week
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post #760 of 816 Old 05-31-2019, 03:14 PM
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Nice!

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post #761 of 816 Old 06-01-2019, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok i couldn’t wait, so i threw out the SI18 VNF and quickly got the JBL box with SLAPS in there

No pics yet or measurement yet(late at night here), but first impressions?

Hmm, WOW!! That one! SLAPS is amazing in downfiring config! It bring it big time all the way down, wooble, punch, it does it all and from what i can hear and feel, it sums amazing in both the sound and TR department. It is actually way better than when i had the 2x JBL(pr seat) in BOSS config under the seat, LOL.
With it on my TR sled it is basically a VNF sub and a 4inch Xmax/400+grams mms BOSS all in one solution.

Playing the demo clips from The Meg feels pretty darn close to the way the SI18 cantilever BOSS felt, it is awsome.
And the JBL/SLAPS is WAY better as VNF than the SI18 VNF.

I am starting to get TOO MANY good TR solutions.... how will this end ?

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post #762 of 816 Old 06-02-2019, 04:55 PM
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After reading about your different SLAPS configurations, I started to look at PR solutions for future builds a long way off, and I could probably save a lot of space for VNF builds adding a pair of the matching 15” Dayton RSS390-PR to my existing drivers.
Wouldn’t be using it on a BOSS sled, but who knows one day maybe...

So out of all your configurations you’ve tried so far, what are a couple of favorites?
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post #763 of 816 Old 06-03-2019, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
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^^ Well, my original stacked MA+BK was/is incredible, but combining it with BOSS has proved hard to better. Until cantilever came into the picture. The current favourite is with the SI18 in cantilever BOSS combined with stacked MA+BK. But it can’t be easily combined with VNF’s. Yet.....

The JBL/PR is an amazing combo of the VNF and cantilever boss, with impressive TR, but probably not quite as brutal as the 18", but not by a lot.

But honestly, this combo is probably more than enough, LOL. It is THAT good. And much easier to build and place

I still have the 4xJBL mounted on the TR sled in cantilever BOSS to try out, the increased mms should improve on things+ it will make it easier to put a VNF on top. That BOSS version will be 4 JBL pr seat!

And i also plan to test the BK in cantilever.

Will see if i can make some progress this week.
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Very nice on the SLAPS. When I add the cantilever part to my boss with the VNF JBLs on top I should add a few of them to it. Sounds like great bang for the buck.
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post #765 of 816 Old 06-04-2019, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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For what it is, and for the purpose of TR, it is amazing. Granted i have a stacked MA +BK setup, but the added TR from just the one 12" SLAPS, is jawdropping! I just watched Captein America winter soldier with BEQ and the wooble the little 12" managed to give my seat was nothing less than impressive. I am defenitely going to see if no matter if i end up with 18" or 4x12" for cantilever BOSS, i need to look into how to also keep the PR in the mix


4x12" cantilever TR sled coming up next :



Stay tuned....
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Keep doing you guy! Your experiments are outstanding!
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post #767 of 816 Old 06-05-2019, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Did a bit of VS graph today, before i took it apart to convert from JBL/PR cantilever BOSS/VNF to 4xJBL cantilever "normal" BOSS.

About the SLAPS: the manual states it has 289grams of MMS without the mass added, and the mass included is 255gram, so that means total MMS is 544grams! No wonder it is impressive, LOL.

And also the EQ and timing delay is left as is(same as NF’s have) on the JBL/PR to avoid messing with the FR.
Removed the seatback, so here is a peek at the VNF. Maybe a bit low for chest punch, but i did it this way in case the 18" BOSS must be used=taller shelf for the VNF. I can reconfigure if needed.



Can’t get more VNF than this



And the TR Sled as it is configured for JBL/PR



So here is each component with a flat signal(expect JBL/PR). All summed to the bottom right. It looks pretty ok here, and they sum well, so all is good



And here is the usual clip from The Meg, and it is awsome, the two best setups was with all components in phase, and the other was with the MA’s out of phase/inverted. But they both felt... dare i say it: the best ever !
With this much TR displacement you get so involved with the action, in this case a submarine imploding, you are IN THE EXPLOSION, and your jaw is just on the floor, totally nuts! But still so precise and "analog" if i may say so. And the Z-axis is over limit again, but look at the Y-axis! It is almost at the limit too, and the Z and Y- axis sums extremly well on the graph, they are almost parallel.

PS: this is with the settings i use under normal watching, EQ, LPF etc.



Ok, out with that, and in with next test subject.



I can combine up and downfiring if i want/need.



Aaaannnd done. Should be fine to mount a VNF on top of this option



Won’t get much testing until tomorrow.



This should be over 700grams of mms
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post #768 of 816 Old 06-05-2019, 11:30 AM
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^^^ Friggin’ awesome as usual, LOT (Lord of TR )!!!

That’s gotta feel insanely fantastic!! And yep, REAL nice Y axis too, that has feel great with it working so well with Z!!!

Looking forward to the rest of your tests and looks like you’re about ready to do just that with the 4 JBLS cantilevered. Cool!!!

EDIT: I bet you'll be the first person ever to actually hit the LIMIT on both Z and Y axis at the same time in a VS reading Go Nalleh!!!
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post #769 of 816 Old 06-05-2019, 03:12 PM
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Looking good! The cantilever build came out looking really nice. Good job.

What are you going to put for VNF? The 2 JBL box or the 4? I'm assuming either will have the SLAPs in it. I need to start drawing out the design I have in my head for my cantilever expansion and start firming up the specs on it. Right now I'm thinking 8 JBLs across the back of the couch chest high coming up from the riser with maybe 4 SLAPS. Build it as 4 pairs with a SLAPS in each one.
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post #770 of 816 Old 06-05-2019, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
^^^ Friggin’ awesome as usual, LOT (Lord of TR )!!!

That’s gotta feel insanely fantastic!! And yep, REAL nice Y axis too, that has feel great with it working so well with Z!!!

Looking forward to the rest of your tests and looks like you’re about ready to do just that with the 4 JBLS cantilevered. Cool!!!

EDIT: I bet you'll be the first person ever to actually hit the LIMIT on both Z and Y axis at the same time in a VS reading Go Nalleh!!!
Thanks man, it starting to look like something good, right ?

Funny note: after getting the latest BOSS done this afternoon, my first impressions were rather : meh....
Couldn’t figure out what was wrong or why it didn’t work as expected, then finally hours later i caught it: i was supposed to connect the 4x JBL in series-parallel, and the first step was correct, i connected two in the BOSS in series, and same with the two other, but when i went to PARALLEL connect again, i had a brainfart and SERIES connected them for a total load of 16 ohm, instead of the expected 4ohm !! MAJOR difference, LOL.

And now it is to late to test anything, HAHA.
However just watching TV late at night, i can feel a wobble every now and then.

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post #771 of 816 Old 06-05-2019, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
Looking good! The cantilever build came out looking really nice. Good job.

What are you going to put for VNF? The 2 JBL box or the 4? I'm assuming either will have the SLAPs in it. I need to start drawing out the design I have in my head for my cantilever expansion and start firming up the specs on it. Right now I'm thinking 8 JBLs across the back of the couch chest high coming up from the riser with maybe 4 SLAPS. Build it as 4 pairs with a SLAPS in each one.
Thanks

Yeah, that depends, i got multiple options, depending on what works best in the cantilever BOSS position. My plan was that if the 4x JBL cantilever BOSS works out, i would then use the SI18 on top of them as VNF’s and the 1 remaining box with 4x JBL as the middle VNF.

But now that the JBL/PR just blew me completely by surprise, i might end up with more boxes/drivers than i can use, LOL.

Regarding the SLAPS and the "rules" they had in their manual. I found a bit more reasonably statement at the Dayton PR page:

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...iator--295-504

"Tip: As a general rule, the passive radiator(s) should have at least double the displacement of air (Vd) as the active woofer(s)/subwoofer(s) in the system.
To calculate Vd: Sd x Xmax = Vd"

SLAPS= Sd 483cm2 x Xmax(one-way) 50.8mm =Vd 2453cm3

JBL= Sd 551cm2 x Xmax 12.1mm = 666cm3 x2 units= Vd 1333cm3 and that times 2 is slightly more than the SLAPS Vd at 2666cm3.
But i would say that is close enough.

So yeah, 2x JBL pr SLAPS M12 is a pretty good match., but one SLAPS on my 4x JBL box would be too much. And going to 2x SLAPS pr box is a doable option, but it will make the tune higher. But now that i have tested the SLAPS, i think for a VNF and TR solution like i did, the higher tune wouldn’t matter, because you would get higher SPL up higher AND more TR down low because of double the MMS. Win-win
I could do either a 2x JBL + 2x SLAPS combo in each box, or even 4x JBL+ 2x SLAPS. All with the boxes i already have.

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post #772 of 816 Old 06-05-2019, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Thanks

Yeah, that depends, i got multiple options, depending on what works best in the cantilever BOSS position. My plan was that if the 4x JBL cantilever BOSS works out, i would then use the SI18 on top of them as VNF’s and the 1 remaining box with 4x JBL as the middle VNF.

But now that the JBL/PR just blew me completely by surprise, i might end up with to many boxes to use, LOL.

Regarding the SLAPS and the "rules" they had in their manual. I found a bit more reasonably statement at the Dayton PR page:

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...iator--295-504

"Tip: As a general rule, the passive radiator(s) should have at least double the displacement of air (Vd) as the active woofer(s)/subwoofer(s) in the system.
To calculate Vd: Sd x Xmax = Vd"

SLAPS= Sd 483cm2 x Xmax(one-way) 50.8mm =Vd 2453cm3

JBL= Sd 551cm2 x Xmax 12.1mm = 666cm3 x2 units= Vd 1333cm3 and that times 2 is slightly more than the SLAPS Vd at 2666cm3.
But i would say that is close enough.

So yeah, 2x JBL pr SLAPS M12 is a pretty good match., but one SLAPS on my 4x JBL box would be too much. And going to 2x SLAPS pr box is a doable option, but it will make the tune higher. But now that i have tested the SLAPS, i think for a VNF and TR solution like i tested, the higher tune wouldn’t matter, because you would get higher SPL up higher AND more TR because of double the MMS.
I could do either a 2x JBL + 2x SLAPS combo in each box, or even 4x JBL+ 2x SLAPS. All with the boxes i already have.

Great info! It's nice that my gut feeling on the SLAPS to JBL ratio was spot on.

I think you had the SLAPS down firing IRC. Have you experimented with any other directions to see if it makes a difference?
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post #773 of 816 Old 06-05-2019, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Great info! It's nice that my gut feeling on the SLAPS to JBL ratio was spot on.

I think you had the SLAPS down firing IRC. Have you experimented with any other directions to see if it makes a difference?
Yup, downfiring now, and it is the cat’s meoooww

Yes i tested it forward facing:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/29-wh...l#post57990084

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post #774 of 816 Old 06-06-2019, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is some scrap parts in the corner



Just kidding, LOL.

OK, update time. Again. End in sight

Just for the record this is now a new TR Sled, a little wider and an little bigger and a lot more sturdy and stiff. First one was made from scrap pieces just for testing. This new one is bulletproof

I finished up some details today, but still need to make a shelf on top, so i just used some 2x2 pieces and slided (it’s a 100lb)the center VNF box on top of the sled so i had a VNF behind the seat for measuring. Looking good



This is now my only remaining 4xJBL box, as they were first built.



2 inches of clearence, should be plenty



Probably getting tired of these graph, but i like to do a "base" graph for all components when i start for the day, so here is today contestants: stacked MA, BK, BOSS and the VNF’s are one 4xJBL behind the measured(left) seat, and behind the right seat is the 2xJBL + frontfiring PR.



And here is all summed with different setups: left is all same phase and delay, middle is BK inverted, and right is MA and BOSS inverted. Inverted version summed best.




And here is the same clip as before from The Meg with each component ONLY! BK is over the Z- axis limit ALONE, LOL!
Look at the y-axis on the VNF’s, pretty good, and it is not even strapped or screwed on the plattform.


OK, here is the golden ticket; did someone ask for multiple axis LIMIT??
You ask, and i shall deliever

The left graph is all in phase, so so good, but the two other setups, run right trough and over the Z AND Y- axis LIMIT !!



Holy moly!!
Actually all three axis sum extremely well, so that’s a nice bonus

It seem i have found my best BOSS alternative....

Now for the best VNF alternative to put on top.....

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post #775 of 816 Old 06-06-2019, 07:21 AM
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post #776 of 816 Old 06-06-2019, 07:27 AM
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^^^ Hell yeah MR NALLEH!!!! Friggin' awesome to say the least, fantastic job my bro!!

and yup ...I knew that double axis LIMIT bust was coming If it doesn't get any better than this moving forward (it will though), who cares, its already the best I've seen!!
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post #777 of 816 Old 06-06-2019, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks man
Yeah, i am not even sure i have maxed out everything yet either, LOL. But plenty of headroom is a good thing.

Honestly i think i’ll skip the BK in cantilever test, there is simply no need, and i can’t configure the rest in such a option. The way i have it all lined up now, it all works very well, so i think i have done the groundwork now, just cruising it to the finish line now

Left to test is the VNF options. The 4xJBL is the one i am testing now, then the JBL/PR and the SI18.

I think it has more in it, LOL.


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post #778 of 816 Old 06-07-2019, 07:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, it is friday, and let’s celebrate with some VS graphs

Came to think about it, using the 4xJBL box as VNF isn’t a option, as i don’t have enough driver for 2 boxes. using the 2 SI18 boxes and this one 4xJBL box as 3 VNF’s is possible, but then i would miss out on the JBL/PR.

Anad i wanted to test the JBL/PR as VNF, because basically that setup would be like the last test with downfiring SLAPS, only now with the BOSS under it. So i took out the 4xJBL again, and made some feets for the JBL/PR box and put it on the TR Sled

Here is the best from yesterday on the left graph, and today on the right. The one with MA & BOSS Inverted was the best one today. It is all about getting them to sum as good as possible.




And The Meg again, yesterday to the left and todays to the right. Almost hitting triple LIMITS !!!!!

Heck, even the X-axis is tripping 1e+00 on the graph, LOL.



WOW, it was like i hoped, the exellent results from using the JBL/PR as BOSS combined beatyfully with the "proper" 4xJBL BOSS right below it. The funny thing is it is still so precise and nuanced, it is not just a lot of rumble and movement or one note shaking, it is just like when i just had the MA+BK, only more, a lot more, LOL.

So now i have the formula, and just need to get the TR Sled nr2 done, so i can do the whole couch

And i now have 2x SI18 in surplus, LOL.

I guess i can either stack them as VNF’s in center of couch, or use them as NF’ish, just as @SBuger is doing. We’ll see.

Got some pics coming later
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post #779 of 816 Old 06-07-2019, 09:42 AM
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^^^ Yeppers .....really nice!! As for your VNF, I thought that JBL/PR (for BOSS duty as well) would take the cake for the ultimate VNF solution!! Yep, super nice axis overlay too on your graphs!! LOL...and yep almost triple LIMIT there on your MEG clip with inverted!! That's so cool!!

Nice to have options with the extra SI's now. Yeah I'm sure either would be cool as NFish or more VNF behind the mid of your couch.

Got my 3 drivers put back in my cabs yesterday, but is as far as I got with it and still not back in my room yet. Need to build my holders to get them angled up and close to my seat backs. Should be quite a bit better for feel than the way I used to run them I would think, even when my seating was lower. We'll see. Watching The Girl in the Spiders Web last night though just felt amazing even without the VNFs, with just BOSS sub riser + MAs only (and NFs and FF of course). Felt so good and so realistic, and just ....'right' that I almost don't even want to mess with my VNFs. HA, that would be crazy though right!!?? LOL
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post #780 of 816 Old 06-07-2019, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Just throwing out some pics here, comment more tomorrow.

EDIT: made some feets for the JBL/PR to stand on top of the BOSS, 4 inches of clearance.



A lot of goodies in these pics





Final version of TR Sled Seat ended up a tad under 5 inches higher than original, and the VNF box is 10" higher than before, so using the JBL’s in the bottom holes fits pretty good.



Seat back is almost touching the VNF box in reclined mode, perfect.



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