Cam Man's Media Great Room - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 21Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 40 Old 06-06-2019, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Cam Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Tucson, AZ, Telluride, CO, & Los Angeles,CA, USA
Posts: 3,392
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 531 Post(s)
Liked: 642
Post-Calibration OmniMic Image

For what it's worth, guys...I added an OmniMic image of one of my HTM-12's spectral response after calibrating with xt32 and using the Editor App to manipulate to emulate the Harman/Synthesis target curve. This is with the subs. 1/6th octave resolution. This is what I achieved with all three LCRs. It sounds as good as it looks.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	LEFT MAIN SYN CURVE EQ  AV7704.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	84.2 KB
ID:	2576638  
Cam Man is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 40 Old 06-09-2019, 08:43 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Geoff4RFC's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Just down aways from Stanley
Posts: 4,470
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 469 Post(s)
Liked: 1653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post
For what it's worth, guys...I added an OmniMic image of one of my HTM-12's spectral response after calibrating with xt32 and using the Editor App to manipulate to emulate the Harman/Synthesis target curve. This is with the subs. 1/6th octave resolution. This is what I achieved with all three LCRs. It sounds as good as it looks.
Thanks for the update, and coincidentally enough, your timing is perfect for me to pry a little

I've been using Onkyo then Integra for the last 10 years. Now, I'm looking at Marantz, the 8802A specifically.

Are you still running the 7704? Anything you can throw at me Pro's and Cons's wise??

Thank you in advance!

Set up:
Marantz AV8802A w/Pangea Premium XLR's-Source: Oppo 103-CD Player: Emotiva ERC 3 w/Pangea Premium XLR's
Display: Samsung QLED 65F-Amplification: Emotiva XPA-DR3, XPA-2 x 2
Mains: PolkAudio LSiM707, C 706, SS 702, RS RTiA9
Geoff4RFC is offline  
post #33 of 40 Old 06-09-2019, 09:06 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ericglo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Just below the US in South Florida
Posts: 11,804
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3591 Post(s)
Liked: 2006
Congrats on completing the system. You probably won't need to upgrade the pj for another year or two.

Having fun playing the new mobile game Volley Village
Ericglo is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 40 Old 06-10-2019, 05:46 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Cam Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Tucson, AZ, Telluride, CO, & Los Angeles,CA, USA
Posts: 3,392
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 531 Post(s)
Liked: 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff4RFC View Post
Thanks for the update, and coincidentally enough, your timing is perfect for me to pry a little

I've been using Onkyo then Integra for the last 10 years. Now, I'm looking at Marantz, the 8802A specifically.

Are you still running the 7704? Anything you can throw at me Pro's and Cons's wise??

Thank you in advance!
I'm always looking not only at such an important product's performance and reliability, but where it lands on the value curve. The 7704/7705 fit perfectly for me. They are superb quality but without breaking the bank. I am also a very big proponent of xt32 for the tremendous flexibility it provides for correcting in virtually any installation, and was very disappointed when Onkyo/Integra abandoned it a few years back.

I don't recall if the 8802A supports the Audyssey Editor App. If it does not, I would not go with it. As fine as that AVC is, I think that the 7704 or 7705 would be a better investment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
Congrats on completing the system. You probably won't need to upgrade the pj for another year or two.
Ha...yes, it never seems to end, but this one is a jewel!
Cam Man is offline  
post #35 of 40 Old 06-10-2019, 09:59 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Geoff4RFC's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Just down aways from Stanley
Posts: 4,470
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 469 Post(s)
Liked: 1653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post
I am also a very big proponent of xt32 for the tremendous flexibility it provides for correcting in virtually any installation, and was very disappointed when Onkyo/Integra abandoned it a few years back.

I don't recall if the 8802A supports the Audyssey Editor App. If it does not, I would not go with it. As fine as that AVC is, I think that the 7704 or 7705 would be a better investment.
Thanks for your input! I was also disappointed with Onk/Integ losing the XT32 which is why I'm looking at Marantz now.

I couldn't see where the 8802A had the Editor App but it does support XT32 with the full package of SubEQ and it is also Audyssey Installer Pro Ready.

Set up:
Marantz AV8802A w/Pangea Premium XLR's-Source: Oppo 103-CD Player: Emotiva ERC 3 w/Pangea Premium XLR's
Display: Samsung QLED 65F-Amplification: Emotiva XPA-DR3, XPA-2 x 2
Mains: PolkAudio LSiM707, C 706, SS 702, RS RTiA9
Geoff4RFC is offline  
post #36 of 40 Old 06-10-2019, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Cam Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Tucson, AZ, Telluride, CO, & Los Angeles,CA, USA
Posts: 3,392
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 531 Post(s)
Liked: 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff4RFC View Post
Thanks for your input! I was also disappointed with Onk/Integ losing the XT32 which is why I'm looking at Marantz now.

I couldn't see where the 8802A had the Editor App but it does support XT32 with the full package of SubEQ and it is also Audyssey Installer Pro Ready.
Of course, Marantz is also Denon now (Lexus/Toyota ??). The Editor App is far easier to deal with!!! But...if you're bent on going the Pro route, I'll sell you my Pro kit.
Cam Man is offline  
post #37 of 40 Old 06-10-2019, 12:50 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Geoff4RFC's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Just down aways from Stanley
Posts: 4,470
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 469 Post(s)
Liked: 1653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post
Of course, Marantz is also Denon now (Lexus/Toyota ??). The Editor App is far easier to deal with!!! But...if you're bent on going the Pro route, I'll sell you my Pro kit.
You are far too kind Amigo!!! Actually, I figured I'd let the XT32 do it's job, if I end up thinking I'd need the Pro set up, I'll definitely look you up

Set up:
Marantz AV8802A w/Pangea Premium XLR's-Source: Oppo 103-CD Player: Emotiva ERC 3 w/Pangea Premium XLR's
Display: Samsung QLED 65F-Amplification: Emotiva XPA-DR3, XPA-2 x 2
Mains: PolkAudio LSiM707, C 706, SS 702, RS RTiA9
Geoff4RFC is offline  
post #38 of 40 Old 06-10-2019, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Cam Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Tucson, AZ, Telluride, CO, & Los Angeles,CA, USA
Posts: 3,392
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 531 Post(s)
Liked: 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff4RFC View Post
You are far too kind Amigo!!! Actually, I figured I'd let the XT32 do it's job, if I end up thinking I'd need the Pro set up, I'll definitely look you up
For what it's worth, xt32 is not a run and forget utility. It does some things really well, but others not so well. That is the genius of the Editor App. I know it seems too simple too believe that that Harman/Synthesis Curve could make such a big impression, but it's a combination (or synergy) with Audyssey features that is so impressive. Xt32 does a superb job of smoothing the LF range, but their target curve sets the LF flat...which does not sound correct in our residential environs. Dynamic EQ can't make it sound right, although it's doing the right thing. A Cadillac calibration using the Editor App and an RTA tool such as OmniMic or REW for verification passes (with DEQ off) to emulate the Harman/Synthesis Curve sounds absolutely fabulous with DEQ. Then you can really hear what DEQ is meant to do...and everything else also sounds fabulous!

I don't set and forget any of the rooms I do now. Every project gets the full calibration via the above process now.
Cam Man is offline  
post #39 of 40 Old 09-19-2019, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Cam Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Tucson, AZ, Telluride, CO, & Los Angeles,CA, USA
Posts: 3,392
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 531 Post(s)
Liked: 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post
For what it's worth, xt32 is not a run and forget utility. It does some things really well, but others not so well. That is the genius of the Editor App. I know it seems too simple too believe that that Harman/Synthesis Curve could make such a big impression, but it's a combination (or synergy) with Audyssey features that is so impressive. Xt32 does a superb job of smoothing the LF range, but their target curve sets the LF flat...which does not sound correct in our residential environs. Dynamic EQ can't make it sound right, although it's doing the right thing. A Cadillac calibration using the Editor App and an RTA tool such as OmniMic or REW for verification passes (with DEQ off) to emulate the Harman/Synthesis Curve sounds absolutely fabulous with DEQ. Then you can really hear what DEQ is meant to do...and everything else also sounds fabulous!

I don't set and forget any of the rooms I do now. Every project gets the full calibration via the above process now.
I want to update my comments on this. I've just completed an in-depth re-calibration of my system, and I learned a bit and can provide more information. The xt32 calibration went great. Surprisingly, it decided that the LCRs were not in phase after the first/MLP pass. Well, I know they are, but I think that I know why it did this. My four subs are all stuffed into a large compartment behind the direct view display. I'm sure this is a phase nightmare for LF. I think that in the first xt32 pass, it detected that the LCRs were out of phase with the LF. I inverted the LCRs' phase for the rest of the calibration. Once complete, I could verify with OmniMic and by ear in an A/B comparison with the LCRs in phase and inverted. The inverted had the proper amount of bass.

A calibration verification using RTA (OmniMic for me) should be done with Audyssey On, but DEQ off (of course, but this is easy to forget), using the same mic positions as xt32, and averaging with 1/6th smoothing.

Another thing that I was careful about after the calibration was setting the trims to a reference test signal of narrowband noise (the PMI 5.1 Toolkit DVD) with volume set at 0.0dB/Reference. I do this because the AVR/AVC BYPASSES EQ when internal test tone is engaged. Trims have to be set after EQ with the EQ if channel levels are to be accurate. Something like the PMI Toolkit uses Dolby 5.1 to send signals through the signal path as if it is program material, therefore permitting level setting with the EQ you've just done. With the Toolkit product the signal for each channel and an SPL meter, you set trims for every channel to 71dBc. This is due to the narrow band that it uses so that low frequency modes don't affect level setting. Even the sub is at this level, although you have to make an eyeball average as you move the meter around the MLP a bit. You end up with both the speakers and the subs looking quite smooth (when verified with the RTA), and if you do a pass that is full range, you can see the splice region. After the trims are set this way, it is likely that the internal test tone SPL levels will be near 75dBc, but since the internal test tone is not as narrow and bypasses EQ, modes at the MLP may cause it to not be dead on 75. That is why the narrow band of the Toolkit is so useful.

If you are a bass hound and set your Sub trims higher than Reference trim and you want Dolby formats (DD, Dolby THD and Atmos) LFE to be accurate (faithful), you need to go into the menus while playing a Dolby source--Audio>Surround Parameter>LFE--and turn down the LFE by the decibels above Reference you set your subwoofer trims. If you don't care about being faithful to the movie mix, don't do this. While you are there, turn off Loudness Management which has a software bug that makes it unreliable with regards to Dolby DialNorm. Denon/Marantz is working on a fix for this bug.

I made a pretty big deal about the Harman Synthesis Curve in the old calibration. I discovered that I had made an error in my calibration verification that led me to believe that the system was EQd with that elevated low end. In essence, I was looking at what DEQ was doing at my lower listening levels of the high teens (-16 or so) instead of at Reference (no DEQ). I tricked myself into this by measuring with OmniMic with DEQ on. Oops! So, if you listen at Reference and/or you never use DEQ, then the Harman Syn Curve's somewhat elevated low end would be a good thing to do. In this new calibration I was very careful to calibrate and trim to near the Reference flat that xt32 created. The exception was that the very bottom rolled off a bit early, so I used the Editor app to set my -3dB low end to 25Hz to match the SMPTE spec for dubbing/mixing stages. Otherwise I left the low end very close to flat with each of the LCRs. Now with DEQ on and volume set at my common listening levels, it all sounds awesome whether movies or music! For what it's worth.
craig john and Geoff4RFC like this.

Last edited by Cam Man; 09-19-2019 at 10:54 AM.
Cam Man is offline  
post #40 of 40 Old 09-29-2019, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Cam Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Tucson, AZ, Telluride, CO, & Los Angeles,CA, USA
Posts: 3,392
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 531 Post(s)
Liked: 642
I posted this over on the DIY speaker forum, but I thought it good to put here, too.

DIYSG Woofer Break-in Period

As I began researching DIYSG kits I saw numerous folks speak of how these pro-grade woofers needed a break-in period, and this would open up their low end. "Open up" is a vague phrase easily inferred at being rather subjective. After about six months with my three models, I could detect no quantifiable change. As my models are now a couple of years old, I have new information that may give it some quantifiable description, although it's not particularly specific.

A couple of weeks ago I had helped a friend with a new system, and had calibrated and verified it with the Audyssey Editor app and OmniMic. I decided to do an update on my calibration with my system. I first took a look at where it was with OmniMic. To my surprise, the results didn't match the post-calibration results that are about 1.5 years old. This was particularly noticable in the lower frequency range of the 88 Special center. It's is not that it ever reached particularly low (it still needs to be crossed at 90Hz), but after the new calibration it is definitely smoother in that lower octave. The HTM-12s (L/R mains) have always been smooth, but they even got a little smoother and now cross somewhat easier at 60Hz. The Volt-10LX surrounds were perhaps the smoothest in response of them all! Surprising.

The subs (a mix of JBL 1400PS and Klipsch THX U2) have been smooth and powerful, but...for this calibration I ditched my old Audyssey Sub Equalizer and used the AV-7704 built-in Audyssey SubEQ for two subs. This resulted in very smooth bass but rolled off at about 30Hz-35Hz. With the Editor app and verification passes I was able to smoothly extend that to 25Hz which is the SMPTE spec for dubbing stages.

I was very careful to end this calibration with post-EQ trim settings. I then did extensive listening tests with material I always use for this. I listened with subwoofers on and off, and in 3.2 and 2.2 modes to take the surrounds out of the equation for eval of the front stage. This way I was able to evaluate numerous modes of operation and the various speakers in play. I saved the new configuration to a separate drive/location.

BTW, I use DEQ, but only use the subwoofers for movies or serious listening. And for most 2-channel listening I use Dolby Surround, even if subs are off. The results are quite pleasantly dramatic. Even without the subs, the 88 Special is noticeably more solid in that lower octave of its range. This is most noticeable in male dialogue. It's appropriate; not heavy. Add the subs, and the full-spectrum performance is extremely impressive with all material in a way it wasn't quite before. The upper octaves of these speakers are as wonderfully clear as always. But that lower level smoothing makes them an even better speaker.

I attribute this improvement to several things. The DIYSG components do loosen up and change their performance somewhat. I'm fairly convinced that is what happened here, and that the updated Audyssey calibration was able to make the best of that. I also think that there were benefits from being more disciplined (thanks to a colleague who is a guru on this stuff) about completing the calibration with setting the trims post-EQ. This almost always is somewhat different than what Audyssey chooses. I will always do that in future calibrations. I think that the built-in SubEQ in the 7704 is superior to the separate Sub Equalizer.

So, as we often do, I found myself checking out favorite music and being happy with the "improvements," but also digging out old stuff not listened to in ages...and finding a new experience.

So in summary, an undated calibration every year or so may be a good practice. Of course, always save your older one so you can return to it if necessary.

For what it's worth.
nlpearman likes this.
Cam Man is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply What's Your System Configuration

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off