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post #271 of 329 Old 06-02-2019, 04:20 AM
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WOWSER, what a awsome update Nice that you put up some pics in your own thread and not just in other peoples thread, LOL.

Holy moly what a journey you have had since the BOSS phenomenon surfaced ! That is some hours of work in those pics man

It seem fitting that first your glowing reviews of BOSS made me jump onboard, was not convinced, but then my glowing review of the cantilever 18" version made you jump on it, LOL. Ahh, fun times.

So strange that you did not find the triple 18" better! I did not like the "normal" under the seat BOSS, but was totally converted by the cantilever one, LOL.

Your "TR sled" looks massive !! Holy crap that was one solid plattform man If it didn’t work for you in cantilever, i was not because of a flimsy plattform, that’s for sure

Ahh well, at least now you have tried it, i am sorry if i contributed to the extra work and back ache, but sometimes we just have to try out things, LOL.

It defenitely seems like you have found your golden ticket to awsome TR, those EOT graphs are INSANE!! Never seem so high levels, LOL. So i understand that you are happy with it.

I understand what you mean about liking the feeling the BOSS give you. In my case the cantilever does that. Been without the SI18 cantilever BOSS a few days while i tried out a couple other things, and when i got the JBL/PR BOSS back last night it was like: AHA, there was that awsome feeling again! The 12" PR cantilever version behaves extremly similar to the SI18" version, it is like they are cousins, LOL. The weight, effortlessness, wooble, fullness, heft, it all came back last night, it’s awsome

Different road to the same goal, i guess
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post #272 of 329 Old 06-02-2019, 09:48 AM
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Your VS numbers are ridiculous with the 6 JBL build! Did you say that your current setup was without soft isos below the BOSS?

I told my 18 year old nephew yesterday when he was over that lots of people have that many subs built into their couch. They’re a sound bar family, so my setup is totally alien to him.

I wonder why when I had my 3 JBL BOSS the 10Hz was lacking in VS and the Crowsons added a lot more below 15Hz, but now with BOSS 2.0 the six drivers really seem to be rocking hard and the MA’s add a bit less. Could be the partial cantilever effect I have going on I guess or just the added headroom.

I’m doing a few seating experiments tomorrow, but I also like the added height and cushion of my current BOSS setup with the second riser for MA’s; going to see how I like the hard isos back under the seating tomorrow. When I took everything off for a couple days prior to installing BOSS 2.0, it felt like we were sitting on the ground with no soft iso suspension to cushion movement and 4” lower, my once comfy couch felt like a concrete slab, lol. I do worry the harder couch feet might walk around a little easier on the BOSS platform whereas the silicone ones grip very well but maybe not.
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post #273 of 329 Old 06-03-2019, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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WOWSER, what a awsome update Nice that you put up some pics in your own thread and not just in other peoples thread, LOL.

Holy moly what a journey you have had since the BOSS phenomenon surfaced ! That is some hours of work in those pics man

It seem fitting that first your glowing reviews of BOSS made me jump onboard, was not convinced, but then my glowing review of the cantilever 18" version made you jump on it, LOL. Ahh, fun times.

So strange that you did not find the triple 18" better! I did not like the "normal" under the seat BOSS, but was totally converted by the cantilever one, LOL.

Your "TR sled" looks massive !! Holy crap that was one solid plattform man If it didn’t work for you in cantilever, i was not because of a flimsy plattform, that’s for sure

Ahh well, at least now you have tried it, i am sorry if i contributed to the extra work and back ache, but sometimes we just have to try out things, LOL.

It defenitely seems like you have found your golden ticket to awsome TR, those EOT graphs are INSANE!! Never seem so high levels, LOL. So i understand that you are happy with it.

I understand what you mean about liking the feeling the BOSS give you. In my case the cantilever does that. Been without the SI18 cantilever BOSS a few days while i tried out a couple other things, and when i got the JBL/PR BOSS back last night it was like: AHA, there was that awsome feeling again! The 12" PR cantilever version behaves extremly similar to the SI18" version, it is like they are cousins, LOL. The weight, effortlessness, wooble, fullness, heft, it all came back last night, it’s awsome

Different road to the same goal, i guess
Thanks man!!

Oh yeah, fun times for sure!! A lot of work yes, but fun too and worth it to explore, which is necessary if you want to find and get the best experience possible from our setups. Especially with so many variables we all have to worth with (and around sometimes) and preferences.

We do seem to like real similar TR (and gear) though, you and I, and is pretty obvious from our many convos we’ve had about it here on AVS (and PM) over the last couple of years. Yes, I agree it’s strange that I didn’t prefer the 18’s cantilever BOSS to my 6 JBLs setting on the floor. Hell, setting it on the floor with no isos is strange!! But I just can’t deny how great it feels and VS measures pretty killer too, to go along with it. So, whatever the reason I guess, I’ll take it. Maybe it’s not that strange though, as Scott Simonian’s sub riser (with his 2 18’s and no isos) reads real similar on VibSensor to mine on EOT.

So back to variables, differences in seating being just one of them, you do seem to prefer more TR over 30hz than I do (at least on your readings), BUT I’d wager money our TR (in this area (ULF as well)) feels WAY more similar than not if we were to experience the same demo material at around the same levels if we were to set in each other’s MLP seat with our setups (ya know if we weren’t half way around the world from each other LOL).

About the massive ‘TR sled’ …LOL yeah I probably went a bit overboard on building it. I have a tendency to go overboard with things sometimes hahahaha. Maybe the damn thing was tooooo rigid LMAO!!! Tim probably wouldn’t think so though LOL

But yes, I HAD to try my 18’s, or I couldn’t sleep at night. It does seem that I have found what works for me with the variables that I have to work with, so that cool!! So yep, I think you nailed it in saying “Different road to the same goal”

I could continue to experiment more with BOSS (and may at some point as I’ve got a few more ideas I’d like to try), but for now I seem to be super satisfied with it and ready to start enjoying a lot of content. I need to get my VNF thing worked back out, but after that, I really should be set. Looking forward to it

Awesome on your 12” PR cantilever VNF!!! I bet it feels killer in your setup!! You da man on all this testing and finding numerous great configs with such cool ideas and ways to implement them. You definitely have a way of continuing to push the boundaries with TR (Atmos too!!). As usual, very inspiring to say the least my friend!!
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post #274 of 329 Old 06-03-2019, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
Your VS numbers are ridiculous with the 6 JBL build! Did you say that your current setup was without soft isos below the BOSS?

I told my 18 year old nephew yesterday when he was over that lots of people have that many subs built into their couch. They’re a sound bar family, so my setup is totally alien to him.

I wonder why when I had my 3 JBL BOSS the 10Hz was lacking in VS and the Crowsons added a lot more below 15Hz, but now with BOSS 2.0 the six drivers really seem to be rocking hard and the MA’s add a bit less. Could be the partial cantilever effect I have going on I guess or just the added headroom.

I’m doing a few seating experiments tomorrow, but I also like the added height and cushion of my current BOSS setup with the second riser for MA’s; going to see how I like the hard isos back under the seating tomorrow. When I took everything off for a couple days prior to installing BOSS 2.0, it felt like we were sitting on the ground with no soft iso suspension to cushion movement and 4” lower, my once comfy couch felt like a concrete slab, lol. I do worry the harder couch feet might walk around a little easier on the BOSS platform whereas the silicone ones grip very well but maybe not.
Thanks man! Yeah, no isos below the BOSS. It seems ridiculous I know, but somehow seems to bring it hard, and down deep. I would have never thought it possible. But, Like I was saying to Nalleh up above, Scott’s ‘sub riser’ (an actual ‘true/real’ sub riser) reads almost identical on VS for OET intro, so maybe its not that strange.

LOL on you and your nephew, ….yeah lots of peeps have subs built into their couch, its totally normal hahahaha.

It defiantly seems to be catching on fast around here LOL and for darn good reason too huh!! Who’d have thought that some little 12’s in the seating could be so great set up like this. I guess a dude named ‘Tim’ that loves TR too right!!! hahahaha

About the 10hz lacking with 3 JBLS, more JBLs does seem to really help this area. The 18’s definitely had no trouble in this area, as the bigger and heavier drivers with more excursion (and lower Fs) really helps I’m sure, but the 12”s seems to be able to do it too, it’s just harder for them to get it done and need LS and or LPFs that create a rising curve (this plus higher gains levels on the amp to then pick the whole TR curve up) , at least when fully isolated in an open baffle type setting like BOSS. Setting on the floor (mainly sealing it) seems to be a different story though. Crazy!!

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post #275 of 329 Old 06-03-2019, 04:48 PM
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^^ Oh Yeah, i agree it is more like Scott’s sub riser, which reminds me: are you still running the JBL’s out of phase?

Because the reason to do that in the first place was with the iso’s below, the movement of the JBL’s got inverted trough the plattform, and needed inverted phase for the movement to be in sync with the farfields.

Now that you basically have a subwoofer box on the floor, the need for inverted phase should be gone?

And if you still run them out of phase, as they are now a sealed’ish box contributing to SPL, how does the FR look now?

Oh, and the reason my graphs look more linear, is when i tweak i turn of all EQ and LPF’s and such, just a flat signal.

But i may like more of the visceral between 15-30 hz, which is what the BK’s are so awsome at, but not to the extent of running a flat graph curve, i like a house curve on my TR too, LOL.

As Aron said earlier, you can never have too much single digit TR

BTW: earlier you experimented with seperate plattforms for each seat, what was your conclusion on seperate pr seat or one big joint one?

I am considering going to seperate pr seat, because the jiggle in MY seat from the occupant in the other seat moving about is really bugging me.
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post #276 of 329 Old 06-03-2019, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^ @Nalleh -Good questions. Nope, I’m still running it out of phase and seems to be best for combining with the MAs and VNFs. Also seems to sum constructively SPL wise with all the other subs last time I checked as well. I’ll check it all again here in the near future and post some FR measurements when I get to that point for final recal.

Oh ok, gotcha on the no LPFs and EQ when tuning on your graphs.

Interesting you say you may like more of the 15-30hz though. Maybe you do IDK LOL. I do seem to just LOVE this area though, and have for years now!!! But my graphs do read higher on WN in the 10-15hz area than compared to my 15hz and above these days, maybe giving this impression. I got hooked on that 12-15hz to 27hz or so area big time in my previous system down stairs and is the reason I was such a HUGE fan of the BK LFE’s, as NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING could touch them in this area for the feel it could create.

I still LOVE this area but feels a little different now than when I was on my old couch. It’s still great in its own way but has a sharper feel now. I just love it dearly and is probably my favorite TR feel of all, even more so than ULF wobble I think, and I LOVE ULF TR wobble too LOL. That sharpness feel gives me the impression of MEGA power that makes me think it could possibly rip me in half sometimes hehehehehe. I know that too sounds ridiculous, but one of the only ways I know how to describe it. These days, if I can’t get that certain feel Im talking about, the experience is just not the same to me and not exciting. I think that’s one of the reasons I’m so darn fond of that ‘Venom’ street chase scene, is that it is just loaded with this type of feel, one hit after another, again and again and again, AND with some great ULF mixed in as well. Just exhilarating as hell for me. I can watch that scene over and over again (at almost whatever MV level) for that reason alone LOL

But yeah, ULF and the singles are just so cool too and just not the same without them in there. The whole package will always be king I guess for the best and most mind-blowing experience possible LOL

I watched that scene today (and a few from IT too), since I love them so much a real familiar with them for comparing new stuff and tweaking and didn’t even really miss my VNFs being in the mix at all (they are still not put back together yet). I know I need them for at least more chest punch though. It’s hard to get that mega chest punch and certain chest rip feel too without a super close driver, at least it is for me. That will have to be another day and tweak session though after I get them put back together, re positioned and calibrated LOL

Also, I found that I prefer NO isos on top today as well for best feel. And like you found, yes it does read stronger on the VS measurements too, which is cool. It felt to soft/under-damped with the isos on top today on my one large platform with all 6 drivers in it. I mostly preferred isos on top when I had it broke down into 3 different sections (and with only one driver per seat, not two).

I guess that leads me to your next question lol. It can be really good with separates or as one big platform. But adjustments will probably have to be made to get it to feel the same (or at least the intensity to feel similar between the two). You’ll probably have to dial it up more for a single section to match one big joint section. At least that’s how it worked on mine. No biggy though, we seem to have so much TR power on tap that it’s not really a big deal IMO.

I think you’ll be fine if you decide to do that. I hear you, the other person wiggling/squirming or even just shifting their weight in the other seat from time to time can be annoying huh. I always notice it and want to say “hey stop that darn it, your messing with my TR” LOL
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post #277 of 329 Old 06-04-2019, 11:27 AM
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UPDATE TIME: …. BOSS, BOSS and more BOSS
GOT TR??? Hehehehehe

EOT intro: (left) is BOSS only and (right) is BOSS + MAs
Just found and read your build thread. Pretty cool with all the progresses you have been making.
It does not look like the MA add much TR on the VibSensor graph compared to the BOSS alone
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post #278 of 329 Old 06-04-2019, 12:56 PM
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So, after all the testing of the different versions, I’m back to this and with the platform just sitting on the carpet and pad with no isos, top or bottom.
If I may ask, roughly how much $ do you think you have into this setup?
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post #279 of 329 Old 06-04-2019, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Just found and read your build thread. Pretty cool with all the progresses you have been making.
It does not look like the MA add much TR on the VibSensor graph compared to the BOSS alone
Hey Tony, thanks for stopping by and checking out the thread!! Progress has been pretty steady, and pretty fun too …it’s getting there I think A fair amount of my pics aren’t showing up about midway through the thread, so probably need to go fix that at some point (had to change hosting servers and didn’t get them all moved). So, sorry about that if you happened to go through most of it. Pics always make things more exciting IMO!

Yeah, I don’t have the MAs set super high in the mix and is mostly BOSS. I could turn them up more, but feels about right, even though the VS graphs don’t show a whole lot more TR. On real world content though I can definitely feel it, especially in the singles. The main thing is that they are combining constructively, or at least mostly across the range. I’ve got the MAs LPF'ed at 25hz and the BOSS at 35hz. It’s a little easier to see where they add visually on the white noise VS. Its in the numbers too if you look closely.

Awesome job on your BOSS by the way!! And your seats are perfect to fit 2 per seat, drivers down, with all the space you have underneath. I’m a bit jealous of your seats and the way you were able to fit them all up underneath so easily , but VERY VERY cool!!! So happy for you!! Your EOT VS reading looks killer too my friend!! From some of your posts Ive seen around on a few of the threads, sounds like your really enjoying the heck out of it already!! Nice!! Pretty crazy the TR the BOSS can deliver huh! ..and not just any ole TR, fantastic realistic feeling TR!!

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post #280 of 329 Old 06-04-2019, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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If I may ask, roughly how much $ do you think you have into this setup?
Hey there Daniel! Well, it’s starting to add up pretty good. Too much probably, at least with TR devises! LOL. But DIY on the subs helped some. I assume your asking about the Bass and TR part?

BOSS is by far the cheapest at around $300 for the 6 drivers (I wasn’t able to catch the $29 sale), plus the wood. Then I just use one of my BK amps to power it.

Crowson MAs …about 3 grand …yikes!! They are unbeatable in the single digits though and worth it IMO. I probably don’t need 6 of them, but I have them lol

Got 4 BK LFE’s too that are probably about a grand (not currently in use with the MAs and BOSS), but may put them back in, IDK.

4 BKA1000-N amps, which they don’t make anymore, but are great (I bought 2 new and 2 used). I’ve probably got close to a grand in BK amps.

Then the subs, they are all DIY, or I guess I should say AIY. 4 Stereo Integrity DS4-18s (bought at $275 a piece IIRC). They don’t make them anymore or I would have went with 2 more that I needed recently. I just went with Dayton UM18-22’s instead which works just fine, as they are very similar. So about $460ish per cab and driver bundle, plus connecters etc. So, a little under 3 grand for all 6 subs.

Plus 3 iNuke 6000dsp's to power them that I got good deals on. I think I paid about a grand for all 3 in total.

So total for all subs and TR devices together, probably a little under 10 grand.
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post #281 of 329 Old 06-04-2019, 04:14 PM
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Hey there Daniel! Well, it’s starting to add up pretty good. Too much probably, at least with TR devises! LOL. But DIY on the subs helped some. I assume your asking about the Bass and TR part?

BOSS is by far the cheapest at around $300 for the 6 drivers (I wasn’t able to catch the $29 sale), plus the wood. Then I just use one of my BK amps to power it.

Crowson MAs …about 3 grand …yikes!! They are unbeatable in the single digits though and worth it IMO. I probably don’t need 6 of them, but I have them lol

Got 4 BK LFE’s too that are probably about a grand (not currently in use with the MAs and BOSS), but may put them back in, IDK.

4 BKA1000-N amps, which they don’t make anymore, but are great (I bought 2 new and 2 used). I’ve probably got close to a grand in BK amps.

Then the subs, they are all DIY, or I guess I should say AIY. 4 Stereo Integrity DS4-18s (bought at $275 a piece IIRC). They don’t make them anymore or I would have went with 2 more that I needed recently. I just went with Dayton UM18-22’s instead which works just fine, as they are very similar. So about $460ish per cab and driver bundle, plus connecters etc. So, a little under 3 grand for all 6 subs.

Plus 3 iNuke 6000dsp's to power them that I got good deals on. I think I paid about a grand for all 3 in total.

So total for all subs and TR devices together, probably a little under 10 grand.
Yeah I figured those Crowson MA was a good chunk of that particular BOSS build, man those are certainly pricey... ^^;;
But thank you for the break down, much appreciated.
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post #282 of 329 Old 06-04-2019, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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^^^ No prob man!
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post #283 of 329 Old 06-04-2019, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I haven’t tried any VS measurements on this yet, but I have been meaning to try replacing LPFs on my BOSS and MAs with negative HS’s instead, because I remember Aron's and Nalleh’s tests a while back in the Crowson thread saying that the LPF introduces delay, and (more delay as the order of BW slope increases too). Thus, taking away from the negative delay that we are after.

So, I tried it on the MAs first, changing out the LPF with a negative HS. Made a huge diff in punch, clarity, and that dynamic powerful feel. The difference in feel was pretty shocking actually. So, then I did the same thing on the BOSS. And hot damn if it didn’t make a huge diff too!! Again, another very substantial difference in clarity, punch, and well ….more of that insane violent TR feel in the 15 to 30-35hz that I was trying to explain to Nalleh in one of my recent posts above. Actually the ULF TR seemed better too, but cant be for sure just yet. I’ll have to see what it’s doing to the SPL of the BOSS with other subs since I get SPL out of setting on the floor just like a sealed sub. It seemed like I was getting more combined SPL in the 30-40 area too but should be no prob to cut it back on my other subs to bring it back down if this is the case when I do a full re-cal soon. Was kind of hurting my ears a bit after changing the to the negative HS in the BOSS, but GAWD, the new found violence in the TR was like shock and awe LMAO!!! HA, and I was super happy with it before. Just goes to show it can always be better I guess with a little tweaking in the right direction LOL Loved it and can’t wait to mess with it a bit more over the coming days and see if I feel the same about it, as I didn’t have a ton of time to mess with it. I was pretty stoked though with what little bit I messed with it!!

@Nalleh and @aron7awol – have you tried any negative HS’s in place of your LPFs yet? It might not give you the same effect as it gave me, but possibly Don’t know it it’ll make much diff on my VS graphs, but don’t know that I even care actually, the TR feels quite a bit better. So, more negative delay, plus probably a bit more boost/overshoot below (to the left of the - HS) is what is creating this better feel I think.

Also, Nalleh, I tested the BOSS sub riser in not inverted phase like you was asking about the other day. Not good, I lost a ton of TR feel, so switched it back right away lol. Every time Ive tried switching to back to non-inverted phase just to check and make sure, I always switch it right back because it just feels wrong.

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post #284 of 329 Old 06-04-2019, 09:15 PM
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^^ Another great find that I will have to try. What do you have your negative gain HS set at? in place of your 35hz LPF 12BW you had (I believe)?
Regarding the inverted phase, most people report one of the two (0 or 180) does not feel right but in my case, I wonder why the difference between 0 and 180 is barely noticeable.
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post #285 of 329 Old 06-05-2019, 01:29 AM
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@SBuger : that’s awsome that the negative HS made a difference for you too My findings was it made ~7ms difference in the neg. HS favour compared to LPF used in this case, but Aron’s results was not as big.

I have used the neg. HS alternative since i discovered it


However as i also showed earlier, putting the BOSS on the same delay as the farfields, improved on the VS graphs( and as such did not need the improved negative delay. That was back when i had the normal "under the seat" BOSS, not my current cantilever one).


Edit: oh, and thanks for the info on your reply above.

Oh yeah, the BK’s opened up my eyes(ears) to the 15-30 hz too, so thanks for that. The other day while doing som demo clips(The Meg) i, for the first time while doing that, tried to speak! You know when you hit your hand fast on your chest while talking you get that vibrating voice? Well, my voice was vibration like that while playing the clips, LOL, it was hilarious
The single digits is what lifts your whole body, but the 15-30hz is what truly shakes you. When you get both, that’s when the fun begins

Haha yup, i hear you on the wanting to tell the one in the other seat to stop moving, sometimes i think it is a really low wobble, only to discover it was the other person moving, LOL.
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post #286 of 329 Old 06-05-2019, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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^^ Another great find that I will have to try. What do you have your negative gain HS set at? in place of your 35hz LPF 12BW you had (I believe)?
Regarding the inverted phase, most people report one of the two (0 or 180) does not feel right but in my case, I wonder why the difference between 0 and 180 is barely noticeable.
It may not make much difference in feel for the better on yours, but always worth a try. Yep, I was at LPF 35hz BW12 on BOSS, but had lowered it back to about 30hz. Replaced it with a negative HS at 34hz/Gain -10/Q 0.9. I had the MAs backed off to LPF at 25 hz to 22hz BW12 and replaced it with a negative HS at 30hz/Gain -10/Q 0.9. I’m sure the slopes don’t exactly match up to the LPF and does give a bit more below in that 15-25hz region. It felt fantastic though with what little bit I messed with it yesterday but can probably still be tweaked a little further on those numbers to feel the most optimized for preference. If it makes a nice diff for you too, you may have mess with the numbers a bit as well to match your preferences better, to feel optimized across the board so that nothing feels too overbearing in areas, etc.

Regarding the phase on the BOSS, yeah some seem to feel a diff, and some don’t.

This is what I’ve found with mine: If totally floated with isolators (like recommended), I didn’t feel a ton of difference switching from inverted to non-inverted with BOSS ‘only’. BUT, with subs in the mix, especially VNF subs because they give a bunch of TR too (and or MAs), non-inverted phase on the BOSS was not good at all (with driver cones facing up), as it would almost totally cancel out TR below 25hz (it would get worse the lower the frequency got, like darn near totally cancelling out 12hz TR wobble and under). Just awful!!! Above 30hz though, it would get even stronger combined. Like way too strong, so that was bad as well, but not as aggravating as cancelling lol. It’s just that the timing/phase was off and was affected differently at different frequencies along the band, if that makes sense. Just like two subs being out of phase for SPL basically, but with TR.

Now, as far as now with the platform setting on the floor and acting way more like a sealed riser, it still reacts the same as far as combining constructively with other TR components like the VNF subs and or MAs (BK too if I have them in the mix in upright position) with those phase setting like I described in the above paragraph. As far as the BOSS all by itself setting on the floor (no other subs or TR components in the mix) or, IDK, don’t think I’ve tried that yet. The BOSS 'only' may or may not feel that much different just like I was saying with the platform totally isolated/floating.

YMMV though. Since you just have FF subs, you may not notice that big of a difference. You be easy enough to tell though just my inverting and switching back with FF subs on and then off to tell. Also, VS you tell/show you as well in the numbers and visually on the power spectrum graph.

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post #287 of 329 Old 06-05-2019, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
@SBuger : that’s awsome that the negative HS made a difference for you too My findings was it made ~7ms difference in the neg. HS favour compared to LPF used in this case, but Aron’s results was not as big.

I have used the neg. HS alternative since i discovered it


However as i also showed earlier, putting the BOSS on the same delay as the farfields, improved on the VS graphs( and as such did not need the improved negative delay. That was back when i had the normal "under the seat" BOSS, not my current cantilever one).


Edit: oh, and thanks for the info on your reply above.

Oh yeah, the BK’s opened up my eyes(ears) to the 15-30 hz too, so thanks for that. The other day while doing som demo clips(The Meg) i, for the first time while doing that, tried to speak! You know when you hit your hand fast on your chest while talking you get that vibrating voice? Well, my voice was vibration like that while playing the clips, LOL, it was hilarious
The single digits is what lifts your whole body, but the 15-30hz is what truly shakes you. When you get both, that’s when the fun begins

Haha yup, i hear you on the wanting to tell the one in the other seat to stop moving, sometimes i think it is a really low wobble, only to discover it was the other person moving, LOL.
Cool on the HS then!!!

LOL on the voice!!! Yeah pretty crazy huh!!! I was trying that on the 12hz strong ‘wobble’ scene down in the tunnel in ‘IT’ the other day. Crazy that even wobble can mess with your voice too when it gets strong enough

Yeah pretty crazy how the singles can really feel like its lifting your body, I’ve noticed that too. Maybe its partially because of strong Y axis? I do think that’s what can give the feeling like its tossing you forward as well.

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^^ Thanks Shelby. With my DSP being from the NX3000D, I only have either HS6 or HS12 setting with no q setting. I don't know which HS setting mimics the 30Hz LPF; perhaps @aron7awol or @Nalleh can help me figuring that out.
Regarding the phase, I was playing with it with all subs (2 in front, 2 in back) and boss ON and there was barely any difference switching between 0 and 180 on the NX3000D. No biggie, just curious.
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post #289 of 329 Old 06-11-2019, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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A small update and conclusion to my BOSS update last week …

So after getting the BOSS in my system and discovering that the 6 JBLs in the 6” riser just setting on the floor (no isos) felt the best out of all the experiments I did (with and without isolators, several different platforms and even my 3 18 inch drivers (that I robed from my VNFs) to use in cantilevered position), I took a bit of time recently to get my FR back in line to go with it.

One of the FR problems it caused was since I moved/raised my seating up about 6” with seats now setting on the platform, I needed some adjustment on the distance (subwoofer distance tweak) to get the crossover to speakers region leveled back out. I had to reduce the distance a little to get rid of a dip that it had created in this area.

But the main thing was that I now have a BOSS ‘sub riser’ that is basically a big sealed sub that I’m setting on, and is creating SPL to go along with the TR. The TR chase is what sent me on this new journey in the first place but ended up getting more than just TR out of it LOL.

Not a problem though, with a little bit of levels and tweaking, it integrated easy enough and combines constructively at all frequencies that I run it in. I roll it off pretty hard about 35hz with a negative HS (High Shelf), + I have a High cut off set on my BK amp @50hz that I power it with as well. So, it not doing much at all below about 35-40hz, which is what I seem to prefer TR wise from the BOSS in this configuration.

So, even though the individual subs are set a little differently than before (with levels, PEQ, etc), the overall combined FR looks about like it used to before I put the BOSS sub riser in and gives a moderate rising house curve form high to low frequencies, which seems to work fantastic with BEQ’d movies (as well Non BEQ’d native 5 star bass monster movies that dig deep too).

Current FR:
RED = All subs + CC crossed at 90hz …



And here is with all subs showing individually and then all combined. As you can probably see, none of them on their own are that great (side wall NF/FF subs probably look the best). Multiple locations in this challenging square room are required without having to use massive PEQ (which is not good) to get a good overall response. I still have to use some low shelf to boost the low end a bit and a few peak filters to cut a few peaks here and there (mainly around 45hz from bad room mode). But with that said, they combine pretty much perfectly to make up a pretty nice response (looking and sounding).

RED = All subs combined with center channel (FF + NFs + VNFs + BOSS)
PURPLE = 1 18” FF sub on the front wall
BLUE = 2 18” NF/FF subs on the side walls
GREEN = 3 18” VNF subs behind the seats (one behind each seat)
BLACK = BOSS Sub Riser with 6 JBL 12” subs setting on floor under seats



^^^ @Nalleh , you were asking about the FR the other day on the BOSS being mostly sealed and how it affects and integrates with the other subs, so there it is. It has some natural SPL roll off from being sealed under about 18hz. I just let it roll off though and pick up the lower end under this point with the other subs, as the BOSS’s TR is super strong already down to 10hz and under with no LS (singles too, but ad we know doesn’t show well on VS white noise). So it gets no LS and only a hefty negative HS filter at 35hz of -10db, + the hight cutoff at 50hz on thr BK amp that drops it off pretty quickly over 35-40hz. It still does help contribute a bit of SPL down real low though in combo with the other subs. The other subs get a LS of about 6-8db. Actually, the FF sub is only showing 4db here in the FR graph, but I picked it up to 6db to lift the low end just a bit more for more House Curve (and weight) after some demoing but didn’t rerun REW.

So, not super pretty FR for individual individual sub locations, as this is a pretty trying room full of room modes, but have to deal with it. Multiple sub locations is the only way here. well, Side wall NF/FF subs only could probably give me a nice looking FR, but doesn't give me enough FEEL. That’s ok though, spread out more, the overall FR with when all combined is about as good as I could ever ask/hope for I think, plus gives me the feel I crave from PV with the VNFs close behind me in the mix and the weight, fullness, and good sound from the subs farther away, so it all works out

TR: I didn’t take any more VS measurements since the ones I posted last, but they probably still look similar now (I’ll post them again down below). Yes, I’ve added the VNFs back in behind my seats, but probably won’t read a ton higher. But man, can they ever really be felt within the body, which is what I SO love the VNFs for. I even still have them setting on the floor. I was going to raiser them (and even angle them) but wanted to try something with them setting on the floor first, as they are a bit lower than the way they used to be (pre - BOSS riser). With them up higher on my seat back, I was actually getting too much mid bass sharpness in the chest at times and could be distracting and annoying), even with a negative HS to reduce this midbass area. But with them lower, it seems to be just right now, and don’t have to use that negative HS either, bringing the midbass SPL back up too. Before the BOSS, I used to use the negative HS to lower the midbass SPL and TR, and then increase the gain on the subs and or sub trims a bit to help create a house curve. It used to work great. Now, I let the BOSS sub riser help more with that rising HC and not use the negative HS on the VNFs. This seems to be working out perfectly so far, for sound and feel.

So the VSs still probably look close to this (I may try to run a few more VSs when I get a chance), even though I’ve made a few changes with negative HSs in place of LPF on the BOSS and Crowson MAs, and also added the VNFs back in as well. The Negative HS in place of the LPFs really seemed to help give the TR a more precise and visceral feel, which is super cool!! I thought it was great before, but I’ll take it It actually made quite a difference in feel, as I think it gives more negative delay like Nalleh showed in his tests on his.

White Noise 0-50hz (same as before, BOSS only (left pic) and BOSS + MAs (right pic)..


EOT Intro (BOSS only (left pic) and BOSS + MAs (right pic)...


** ^^^ not a ton of difference on the VS graphs above from BOSS only to BOSS + MAs, but can sure be felt, especially in the single digits. The BOSS is doing most of the TR work and feels just about right with the MAs contributing that amount. Like I was saying though, not a ton of visual diff, but it's in the numbers if you look close, and most importantly, can really be felt

I’ll post the pic again of the final config of the BOSS sub riser + Crowson MAs + VNF subs before seating for a visual. Also, no isos on bottom art all, but I did actually like the feel better with isos under the back feet on top of the platform spaced in between the Crowson MAs. non on the front though on top. So I am using 4 Isos, so not totally isolator-less I guess LOL


So, how do I like it all now??? Well, I know I’ve said this who knows how many times before, LOL, but I truly think I’m done tweaking and upgrading/adding more bass and TR in my room, at least for a very long while.

I don’t think I could be more thrilled with what it’s giving me now. I’m in shock over it actually. I’ve been chasing this feel and sound that I’m getting now ever since I moved up into this new room, with numerous configs and experiments. I’ve been close before and pretty darn happy with it, but never quite to this level. It was good, but I always felt it could still be better in ways. Little did I know that the missing ingredient would eventually be the BOSS in the mix, or in my case, kind of a BOSS/sub riser thing as a hybrid with my other TR gear

With subs underneath me now that produce sound as well, besides just TR, it’s brought a new dimension to the bass it seems. To me, it just seems so big, full and enveloping now with just the right amount of weight and pressure for my tastes. Seems so clean and punchy too, which I love. The VNFs really help bring that visceral feel that you can feel internally in the upper body, while also helping a little bit with the big full sound that the NFs, FF and BOSS riser gives.

Combined with the TR the Crowson MAs and BOSS deliver, I think it’s the most violent/ferocious TR I’ve ever felt, while also being the most realistic and natural that I’ve ever felt as well. From full on scary that feels like it may do damage to you , to the super subtle and everything in between. So far, it’s exactly what I’ve been chasing and think it’s giving me everything I could hope for, and then some maybe. I’ll be really surprised if it doesn’t keep me satisfied for a very, very, very long time. I guess I’ll keep my BK LFEs around incase that doesn’t happen and can try to add them back into the mix lol, but for now, as good as the BK LFE’s can be and as much as I’ve enjoyed them over the years, I think they are out for now and not needed anymore. I thought I’d never say that, as I’m such a super fan of them for a lot of reasons.

Well, at least that’s how I feel about it all now. We’ll see if I continue to feel that way over the coming days and months. I sure hope so, as I’m getting tired of messing with it all (as much as I love experimenting and tinkering with it all trying to get the most out of it and making it the best it can be), I’m ready to settle in an watch a ton of content that I’m getting pretty far behind on, and just enjoy

I did watch a couple BEQ’d movies already though with the BOSS in the mix (Creed II and The Girl in the Spiders Web) that were pure joy and makes it all worth it. Makes me feel so fortunate to have a capable HT and opened my eyes to what is possible from hanging around this awesome forum.

Anyway, thanks for the support and following along this far in my HT journey guys!! Not sure when my next decent update will be, maybe a 4k projector next, but will have to save a while for that one.
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post #290 of 329 Old 06-11-2019, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SBuger View Post
A small update and conclusion to my BOSS update last week …



So after getting the BOSS in my system and discovering that the 6 JBLs in the 6” riser just setting on the floor (no isos) felt the best out of all the experiments I did (with and without isolators, several different platforms and even my 3 18 inch drivers (that I robed from my VNFs) to use in cantilevered position), I took a bit of time recently to get my FR back in line to go with it.



One of the FR problems it caused was since I moved/raised my seating up about 6” with seats now setting on the platform, I needed some adjustment on the distance (subwoofer distance tweak) to get the crossover to speakers region leveled back out. I had to reduce the distance a little to get rid of a dip that it had created in this area.



But the main thing was that I now have a BOSS ‘sub riser’ that is basically a big sealed sub that I’m setting on, and is creating SPL to go along with the TR. The TR chase is what sent me on this new journey in the first place but ended up getting more than just TR out of it LOL.



Not a problem though, with a little bit of levels and tweaking, it integrated easy enough and combines constructively at all frequencies that I run it in. I roll it off pretty hard about 35hz with a negative HS (High Shelf), + I have a High cut off set on my BK amp @50hz that I power it with as well. So, it not doing much at all below about 35-40hz, which is what I seem to prefer TR wise from the BOSS in this configuration.



So, even though the individual subs are set a little differently than before (with levels, PEQ, etc), the overall combined FR looks about like it used to before I put the BOSS sub riser in and gives a moderate rising house curve form high to low frequencies, which seems to work fantastic with BEQ’d movies (as well Non BEQ’d native 5 star bass monster movies that dig deep too).



Current FR:

RED = All subs + CC crossed at 90hz …







And here is with all subs showing individually and then all combined. As you can probably see, none of them on their own are that great (side wall NF/FF subs probably look the best). Multiple locations in this challenging square room are required without having to use massive PEQ (which is not good) to get a good overall response. I still have to use some low shelf to boost the low end a bit and a few peak filters to cut a few peaks here and there (mainly around 45hz from bad room mode). But with that said, they combine pretty much perfectly to make up a pretty nice response (looking and sounding).



RED = All subs combined with center channel (FF + NFs + VNFs + BOSS)

PURPLE = 1 18” FF sub on the front wall

BLUE = 2 18” NF/FF subs on the side walls

GREEN = 3 18” VNF subs behind the seats (one behind each seat)

BLACK = BOSS Sub Riser with 6 JBL 12” subs setting on floor under seats







^^^ @Nalleh , you were asking about the FR the other day on the BOSS being mostly sealed and how it affects and integrates with the other subs, so there it is. It has some natural SPL roll off from being sealed under about 18hz. I just let it roll off though and pick up the lower end under this point with the other subs, as the BOSS’s TR is super strong already down to 10hz and under with no LS (singles too, but ad we know doesn’t show well on VS white noise). So it gets no LS and only a hefty negative HS filter at 35hz of -10db, + the hight cutoff at 50hz on thr BK amp that drops it off pretty quickly over 35-40hz. It still does help contribute a bit of SPL down real low though in combo with the other subs. The other subs get a LS of about 6-8db. Actually, the FF sub is only showing 4db here in the FR graph, but I picked it up to 6db to lift the low end just a bit more for more House Curve (and weight) after some demoing but didn’t rerun REW.



So, not super pretty FR for individual individual sub locations, as this is a pretty trying room full of room modes, but have to deal with it. Multiple sub locations is the only way here. well, Side wall NF/FF subs only could probably give me a nice looking FR, but doesn't give me enough FEEL. That’s ok though, spread out more, the overall FR with when all combined is about as good as I could ever ask/hope for I think, plus gives me the feel I crave from PV with the VNFs close behind me in the mix and the weight, fullness, and good sound from the subs farther away, so it all works out



TR: I didn’t take any more VS measurements since the ones I posted last, but they probably still look similar now (I’ll post them again down below). Yes, I’ve added the VNFs back in behind my seats, but probably won’t read a ton higher. But man, can they ever really be felt within the body, which is what I SO love the VNFs for. I even still have them setting on the floor. I was going to raiser them (and even angle them) but wanted to try something with them setting on the floor first, as they are a bit lower than the way they used to be (pre - BOSS riser). With them up higher on my seat back, I was actually getting too much mid bass sharpness in the chest at times and could be distracting and annoying), even with a negative HS to reduce this midbass area. But with them lower, it seems to be just right now, and don’t have to use that negative HS either, bringing the midbass SPL back up too. Before the BOSS, I used to use the negative HS to lower the midbass SPL and TR, and then increase the gain on the subs and or sub trims a bit to help create a house curve. It used to work great. Now, I let the BOSS sub riser help more with that rising HC and not use the negative HS on the VNFs. This seems to be working out perfectly so far, for sound and feel.



So the VSs still probably look close to this (I may try to run a few more VSs when I get a chance), even though I’ve made a few changes with negative HSs in place of LPF on the BOSS and Crowson MAs, and also added the VNFs back in as well. The Negative HS in place of the LPFs really seemed to help give the TR a more precise and visceral feel, which is super cool!! I thought it was great before, but I’ll take it It actually made quite a difference in feel, as I think it gives more negative delay like Nalleh showed in his tests on his.



White Noise 0-50hz (same as before, BOSS only (left pic) and BOSS + MAs (right pic)..





EOT Intro (BOSS only (left pic) and BOSS + MAs (right pic)...





** ^^^ not a ton of difference on the VS graphs above from BOSS only to BOSS + MAs, but can sure be felt, especially in the single digits. The BOSS is doing most of the TR work and feels just about right with the MAs contributing that amount. Like I was saying though, not a ton of visual diff, but it's in the numbers if you look close, and most importantly, can really be felt



I’ll post the pic again of the final config of the BOSS sub riser + Crowson MAs + VNF subs before seating for a visual. Also, no isos on bottom art all, but I did actually like the feel better with isos under the back feet on top of the platform spaced in between the Crowson MAs. non on the front though on top. So I am using 4 Isos, so not totally isolator-less I guess LOL





So, how do I like it all now??? Well, I know I’ve said this who knows how many times before, LOL, but I truly think I’m done tweaking and upgrading/adding more bass and TR in my room, at least for a very long while.



I don’t think I could be more thrilled with what it’s giving me now. I’m in shock over it actually. I’ve been chasing this feel and sound that I’m getting now ever since I moved up into this new room, with numerous configs and experiments. I’ve been close before and pretty darn happy with it, but never quite to this level. It was good, but I always felt it could still be better in ways. Little did I know that the missing ingredient would eventually be the BOSS in the mix, or in my case, kind of a BOSS/sub riser thing as a hybrid with my other TR gear



With subs underneath me now that produce sound as well, besides just TR, it’s brought a new dimension to the bass it seems. To me, it just seems so big, full and enveloping now with just the right amount of weight and pressure for my tastes. Seems so clean and punchy too, which I love. The VNFs really help bring that visceral feel that you can feel internally in the upper body, while also helping a little bit with the big full sound that the NFs, FF and BOSS riser gives.



Combined with the TR the Crowson MAs and BOSS deliver, I think it’s the most violent/ferocious TR I’ve ever felt, while also being the most realistic and natural that I’ve ever felt as well. From full on scary that feels like it may do damage to you , to the super subtle and everything in between. So far, it’s exactly what I’ve been chasing and think it’s giving me everything I could hope for, and then some maybe. I’ll be really surprised if it doesn’t keep me satisfied for a very, very, very long time. I guess I’ll keep my BK LFEs around incase that doesn’t happen and can try to add them back into the mix lol, but for now, as good as the BK LFE’s can be and as much as I’ve enjoyed them over the years, I think they are out for now and not needed anymore. I thought I’d never say that, as I’m such a super fan of them for a lot of reasons.



Well, at least that’s how I feel about it all now. We’ll see if I continue to feel that way over the coming days and months. I sure hope so, as I’m getting tired of messing with it all (as much as I love experimenting and tinkering with it all trying to get the most out of it and making it the best it can be), I’m ready to settle in an watch a ton of content that I’m getting pretty far behind on, and just enjoy



I did watch a couple BEQ’d movies already though with the BOSS in the mix (Creed II and The Girl in the Spiders Web) that were pure joy and makes it all worth it. Makes me feel so fortunate to have a capable HT and opened my eyes to what is possible from hanging around this awesome forum.



Anyway, thanks for the support and following along this far in my HT journey guys!! Not sure when my next decent update will be, maybe a 4k projector next, but will have to save a while for that one.

Wow, incredible! That is all.
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post #291 of 329 Old 06-12-2019, 09:10 AM
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@SBuger : awsome update again, as always

Yeah, it looks like each components has a bit uneven curve, and you seem to have a room node at about 15hz, creating a dip on all of them, but they sum up pretty good, so that’s good, and as you say the most important thing is how it sounds. And you seem to be happy with that, and i guess after all your trying, that is a good thing About time you get to enjoy some movies, man

We have talked about setup before, and without all this work you have put in, you would not be able to enjoy the fruits of your labour now, and it is nice to think about the fact that you have tried every options with the gear you have available, heck even 3x18" BOSS, LOL. No more "what if’s", LOL.

There is no doubt that you have ended up with a insane KILLER setup, and it must be totally nuts to experience, so you should be proud and relax and enjoy for a while........ until the next fad comes along

It has been so fun following you and spitballing with you on this journey, and we have inspired and cheered each other to do the next step, and it is really fun to read you are finally satisified and have reached your nirvana.

We have had pretty much the same taste and preferences about sound, and have had pretty similar setup and gear for a long while, until this BOSS thing came along, and it is also funny to see how we now have differed a bit about our approaches, but still we both seemed to have arrived at a sort of goal, where we have found what we looked for and hoped to achieve.

Even though we now have a bit different setup and gear, i still think we have much of the same qualities and signature of the sound if we could sit down and listen ot each others setup.

That would be something

Good times to be a AV-nerd
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post #292 of 329 Old 06-12-2019, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow, incredible! That is all.
Thanks man!!

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@SBuger : awsome update again, as always

Yeah, it looks like each components has a bit uneven curve, and you seem to have a room node at about 15hz, creating a dip on all of them, but they sum up pretty good, so that’s good, and as you say the most important thing is how it sounds. And you seem to be happy with that, and i guess after all your trying, that is a good thing About time you get to enjoy some movies, man

We have talked about setup before, and without all this work you have put in, you would not be able to enjoy the fruits of your labour now, and it is nice to think about the fact that you have tried every options with the gear you have available, heck even 3x18" BOSS, LOL. No more "what if’s", LOL.

There is no doubt that you have ended up with a insane KILLER setup, and it must be totally nuts to experience, so you should be proud and relax and enjoy for a while........ until the next fad comes along

It has been so fun following you and spitballing with you on this journey, and we have inspired and cheered each other to do the next step, and it is really fun to read you are finally satisified and have reached your nirvana.

We have had pretty much the same taste and preferences about sound, and have had pretty similar setup and gear for a long while, until this BOSS thing came along, and it is also funny to see how we now have differed a bit about our approaches, but still we both seemed to have arrived at a sort of goal, where we have found what we looked for and hoped to achieve.

Even though we now have a bit different setup and gear, i still think we have much of the same qualities and signature of the sound if we could sit down and listen ot each others setup.

That would be something

Good times to be a AV-nerd
Thanks, Nalleh!!

Yep, got that 15hz room mode going on. Guess what that is from …it used to not be there when I first moved into that room for initial testing with all doors closed. BUT, when I removed the closet door that houses the PJ, amps, PC etc. it put that dip in there for all sub locations. Crazy, but it sure enough did lol. I used to boost that back up with a peak filter. Looked good on the graphs, but I always thought the overall sound suffered a little from doing it (whatever the reason) and in the end wasn’t worth it. So, now I just let it be what it is in that area.

So, about the setup, thanks man! And yep, lot of work trying just about everything I could think of. Yes, I ‘Know’ and don’t have to wonder anymore though. At least until the next fad comes along like you say LOL. Hopefully that’s not for a long time, cause I seem to have a problem with saying ‘NO’ hahahaha

Same to ya brother, it’s been so fun spit balling on the journey, inspiring and cheering each other etc. like you say. It’s been a blast I really appreciate all your help along the way!! I don’t think my system would be where it’s at now in a lot of ways without you my friend!! So, THANK YOU!!

Yep, we’ve definitely had/have real similar preferences in sound, TR and setup leading up to this point. I think we still do actually, just went about it a little differently here at the end. It REALLY surprised me that the JBL riser setting on the ground worked better for me than the 3 18” cantilevered setup more like the direction you’ve gone. I really think it must have come down to a seating thing and hell, maybe even the way I constructed the platform. Even though I tried to construct it real similar to yours, I used 2x6’s instead since mine needed to be pretty big for all three seats, plus my seats needed for surface for all the million little feet my seats seem to have. I wanted it pretty sturdy and all that. IDK, maybe it would have worked better with individual platforms for each seat, kind of like you did or are doing, IDK. Either way, I ended up super happy with the JBLs in sub riser form, and it left the 18’s for VNF duty. So, it all worked out.

But like you say (and I think I mentioned it in your thread the other day), I bet our setups still would feel way more similar than different, even with our different approaches. But that said, I’d be surprised if yours still didn’t have the edge and just meaner and maybe better feeling, with more power etc. I do feel that my bass and TR setup couldn’t really feel much better now and is pretty insane, but yours is truly INSANE if I ever saw one. Truly EPIC!! I mean c’mon, dual stacked MAs + BK LFE’s + 4 JBLs per seat cantilevered + VNF subs/SLAPS down firing for BOSS duty as well (at least last I saw) ….it doesn’t get more INSANE than that!!! Im sure that thing when unleashed feels like it could break you in half, and rightfully so!! I know what mine is capable of even with less gear. Plus, the amazing axis overlay you have going on. Better than my axis overlay. I don’t see how it couldn’t feel better with that alone LOL. Truly amazing what you’ve got going on there my bro!!!

If the 18’s would have felt better cantilevered in my system compared to the ‘riser’ that I just seem to LOVE’, my endgame setup would have probably looked very similar to your setup with almost the same gear. But for whatever reason, it didn’t go that way for me. Fortunately, I’m still over the moon happy with it Besides, we can’t always be the exact same anyway right!!?? Hahahahaha

And yes, that would be something to set down and experience each other’s setup some day
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post #294 of 329 Old 06-12-2019, 12:49 PM
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Yeah sure, it’s not like we all have to do it the same way, how boring would that be, LOL.
The creativity and ingenuity of people on this forum is what i love and is why i put up my stuff for everyone to see and maybe get some ideas for them self

I think it is awsome that just between us two, we found pretty different ways to improve out TR, and where you loved direct mounting even though you tried cantilever, i had the exact opposite experience, LOL. It doesn’t matter, as long as we got a better result in the end

Hey, i have dips in the FR too, in fact i think it is in the same ~15hz area, and had just the same expereince as you, maybe better to leave some dips, than boosting the crap out of the system. Win some, lose some

Thanks for the props man, and right back at you, you have helped me too trough this journey, so thank you too
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post #295 of 329 Old 06-19-2019, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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^^ Oh Yeah, i agree it is more like Scott’s sub riser, which reminds me: are you still running the JBL’s out of phase?

Because the reason to do that in the first place was with the iso’s below, the movement of the JBL’s got inverted trough the plattform, and needed inverted phase for the movement to be in sync with the farfields.

Now that you basically have a subwoofer box on the floor, the need for inverted phase should be gone?

And if you still run them out of phase, as they are now a sealed’ish box contributing to SPL, how does the FR look now?


Hey @Nalleh - remember not long ago here ^^^ when you were asking me about maybe not needing to invert my BOSS anymore since it's more like a 'sub riser' now with no isos and it being basically sealed like an 'almost normal sealed sub'? Then I said, its still feels way better inverted and combines better too with other components this way for TR. Well, it still does as it always has, even with isos for normal BOSS, but I forgot to tell you more about this in my last update with the FR responses and TR details.

I've still got my MAs and BOSS on subout 2 (subout 1 has my FF, NFs and VNFs on subout 1). This allows me to get the most negative delay possible on my MAs and BOSS (and BKs when I was running them) by setting my delay in the AVR to 24.6' on subout 2 (or close to that - its the farthest that the AVR will allow with that crappy 'no farther than 20' away the from closest speaker thing that Denon enforces', + our 15' distance limit in the 10x10 mini).

So where I'm going with this is, YES, it probably should be 'not inverted' now. If I set the BOSS sub riser to the same distance as my VNF's, or even NF on the sides or FF up front (but VNFs is the best) and not 'inverted' and even on the same subout 1 as those 3 locations for FF, NF and VNF, the FR on the BOSS by itself looks about the same on it's own as when I have it set to 24.6' on subout 2 for the most negative delay possible and then have it phase 'inverted' in the miniDSP. Also, it combines about the same as well FR wise with the other subs, except it does combines a little better SPL wise under about 15hz.

^^^ So, its actually just a tad bit better for my FR and SPL under 15hz with it not inverted and set to the distance of my VNF subs. BUT, here is the kicker and most important to me by far, the TR around 20hz and under is WAY better feeling!!!! Like it feels like the wobble is almost missing in comparison.

So needless to say, it stays in inverted phase with the same negative delay as the MAs. Crazy and I could not hardly believe this, but just happy to get the most feel out of it and have my combined FR just almost as good down under 15hz. Phase and TR can be so weird sometimes and what feels best. I don't know that I really understand what was happening there, but just glad I found it because it feels like night and day diff on the ULF TR wobble with the BOSS sub riser set probably 'wrong' LOL

I didn't save the FR measurements to show this, or even take VS measurements of it, but it was so obviously apparent that it was shocking. Some of my favorite passages with ULF content that I so used to and familiar with was nearly gone with it set 'right' with non invert and correct distance. Even with just BOSS sub riser only and no other components in the mix (even though FR showed about the same). I guess this just goes to show again, its always worthwhile to try something out, even if it may be wrong in the 'Books' hahahahha

Anyways, thought you may find that interesting, since you were asking about it a while back. I know I sure did.
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post #296 of 329 Old 06-19-2019, 11:30 PM
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@SBuger : yeah i agree, what feels/sounds best is what you should go for. Right or wrong

But if you measure your BOSS on its own(or any of the LFE components on its own), then phase or delay adjustments shouldn’t matter, as it wouldn’t be any other components to interact with
If you measure just one of them, the FR curve should loook exactly the same no matter how you adjust delay or phase.

And i am a bit confused if you run in or out of phase:
First you say not inverted gave much better TR below 20hz, and then you say it will stay inverted ?

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post #297 of 329 Old 06-20-2019, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh yeah, it can get confusing I guess with all I said about it. BOSS sub riser set to 24.6' (just like my MAs for most negative delay) AND inverted gives the best TR under 20hz (combined or on its own), while FR looks about the same on its own and combined very well with the other subs too.

Not inverted and set to the distance of my VNFs (5.6'), or even my NFs, I loose a ton of TR under 20hz, even though the FR own it's own looks about the same, and even combined a bit better for SPL under about 15hz with the other subs. Not a lot better under 15hz, but a little.

The latter 'should' be the correct way of doing it, but FEELS so much better for TR under 20hz with the former. That's all I was saying

The distances are far enough away from each other, that if inverted is not set with the farthest distance of 24.6', its bad and very much so combines de-constructivly SPL wise for FR in most of it's range that I run the BOSS sub riser in (35-40hz and under). And the opposite is true for when it's set to the closest distance. It must be set to not inverted when set to the 5.6' distance like my VNF subs, or the FR is different and combined just as bad (like fu-bar bad SPL cancellation with the other subs). The distances seem to be far enough away from each other in these two different scenarios, that they almost look the same and combine the same for FR if the invert and no invert are used at these extreme distance differences. BUT the TR is WAY better under 20hz, even though the FR looks very similar. So said in another way and shorter, b'oth' ways give about the same looking FR, on its own or combined, but, the other way gives WAY better TR under 20hz to accompany it.

Clear as mud right Hahahahahaha

IDK, maybe I should have just kept that bit info to myself, as it just seems to confuse and I can see how it would. But wanted to share it with you, as I found that pretty interesting. Really, only thing that matters I guess in the end though, is what feels right (and sounds right too) in everyone's system like you say, no matter the reason.
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^^ Thanks, i understand now

Sounds like you have arrived at the best option
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post #299 of 329 Old 06-26-2019, 12:20 AM - Thread Starter
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A bit more update from last time (warning ...kind of a long post here)

So I said I was done experimenting and tweaking with the bass and TR in my setup in last weeks update, and was ready to just start really enjoying it and watching a lot of content.

Well here I am a week later and I just couldn’t help myself I guess LOL. I caved and did a few more little experiments I had intended to do previously on my VNFs and also made a few little tweaks here and there.

But, that said I have been enjoying the heck out of the system and watching a lot of content like I said I wanted to do. The wife has even got in on quite a bit of it.

Finished up the last two seasons of Game of Thrones, and watched First Man and Captain Marvel (CM twice lol), all with BEQ for full band of course BEQ rules!!!

Game of Thrones was awesome to watch on big screen!! Seemed very much like IMAX and just HUGE since it’s 16:9 and I sit so close to the 120”. I didn’t realize I was a season behind in GOT so that was a real treat to find out ....so an extra season that I didn’t even know I was gonna get. I wanted to try to get some real cool dragon pics, but didn't want to spend a bunch of time trying to find the really cool ones. But, I do love me some GOT and Dragons! The mother of Dragons is not too bad either, even though she has issues Wouldn't mind watching the whole thing again start to finish once they all come out in Atmos, like the first two seasons:





I posted a little about First Man and Captain Marvel over in the BEQ thread the other day, but might as well mention it here too I guess.

First Man with BassEQ, WOW!!!!! Some of coolest ULF TR and just overall TR I think I’ve ever experienced to go with the visuals on screen. I truly felt like I was in the shuttle compartment every time they were in it, not just the big blast take offs. From the tiniest of nuances to the big shifts and jolts. Pretty crazy how BEQ totally brings the ULF back to life from it being so heavily filtered. This movie’s effects would be no where near the same without it. Makes me thrilled to have a system capable of delivering the goods down deep into the singles digits.

My wife watched this one with me and even said it felt so real. She said it felt like we were on a ride and right there actually inside the cabin feeling it all. Was cool that she got to experience it with me.

We were watching a movies the other day (before First man), The Girl in the Spiders Web. There were some really awesome TR scenes that I had to rewind and replay right quick because they were just so cool. She normally doesn’t care at all about TR, but she said, I have to admit, that’s pretty darn awesome. So, I thought that was cool since she usually doesn’t care about that kind of stuff lol

That movie was awesome too BTW.

Then Captain Marvel. Supersized me. Pretty decent movie with some awesome ULF with BEQ and other bass, plus overall great Atmos mix. Was a good time!!

I’ve done quite a lot of demoing too with good movie material (I still love to do this and always will I think). So after a week or so with being basically finished with the new BOSS sub riser in the system, I’m still blown away by it. I just can’t get over what this sub woofer riser feels like just setting on the ground with no isolators under it. It just almost doesn’t seem right when I really think about it and I would have never thought it could move me like it does and feel the way it feels. It’s kind of uncanny actually just how freaking real it feels, plus has tons of power across the board. So needless to say I guess, it’s probably been the best TR component I’ve ever added to my system. So glad I tried it out!!!

That said, I do love my Crowson MAs too and they really help add to it, especially down super low. They work together fantastic too, which is way cool.

So with all that said, what this post originally started out to be, was an update on what I messed with a little more. My VNF subs, and even checked out my BK LFEs one last time just to be sure I had made the right decision about Tao how them out of the mix.

But first and foremost, the Very Near Field subs. VNF yall, , they are friggin awesome!! I think I had almost forgotten just what VNFs subs are capable of delivering and why I have always been such a huge fan of them over the past 4-5 years.

My BOSS sub riser is 6” tall, so with the VNF subs setting on the floor, that leaves about that much of a gap from where the driver hits the seat back. So, I raised them up. Easy enough. I had plans to build a nice stand(s) and even angle them, but just used some crates for now that seems to work great to get the driver up higher.

First I tried them without the crate and just left the back end of the cab setting on the floor and rested the front on the back of the riser, since it has no isolators under the riser anyway with it sitting on the floor. So this angled it up, got the drivers a little closer to the seat backs and also gave additional TR as well from the cabinet in contact with the sub riser. Was pretty darn good.

I think I forgot to takes pics of this.

So then, next step was to raise the back end up with the crates and that brought the drivers up real close to the seat backs pretty close to chest level when Reclined.

A few Pics of that ...

You can see about an inch of the front of the cab resting on the sub riser. More would have been better but this worked for a first test:


And then all lined up, on riser and drivers up close to seat backs:


^^^ Pretty crazy, got the slam (and TR) from Particle Velocity since the drivers were so close to my back + the TR the cabinets created from being in contact with the sub riser. Since it was connected now, even with just about an inch of the front part of the cabinet, the TR could really be felt. But it just ended up being too much TR in the higher frequencies for my liking and didn’t feel quite right, since I like to crossover at 90hz. 80hz was even too much at times. My system seems to just sound and feel the best with crossovers set to 90hz. The LPF of LFE setting as well. So I wanted to leave them set like that if I could.

So next, moved the cabinet back a bit so that it’s not resting on the sub riser and only the crate to lift it up chest height and also fire into the bottom bracing of the seats as well.

You can see the crates I used to raise the subs up higher. Lightweight be seem to do the trick well for now:




In between seats with subs behind:


Side shot the very left seat. Driver is about an inch away from the bottom crossbar and top of seat back. Can also see the back JBL 12". There is one in front of it too but can't see it. Can also see where I have the Crowson MAs positioned under the inner inside feet of the seat frame. They do real well here:


Another side seat shot:


A shot on left side corner. I do use 4 isoslators on top of the BOSS sub riser on the outer feet since the MAs are on the inner feet a bit further in (you can see one in the pic). None on the front or anywhere else though. I really like the feel of just these four isos on the top back in between the 6 MAs:


And a few shots with them all lined up. Lifted but not resting on the sub riser:





^^^ Yes ....PERFECT! Brings a pretty good amount of TR and a whole a lot of slam that can really be felt internally from the PV. A ton of it actually. Drivers being only 6” closer made a pretty crazy difference!!! Especially in the MB area for chest feel. A LOT more visceral and in combo with the BOSS sub riser, there is a violence now that I didn’t really realize I was missing out on. The TR also feels more engulfing, bringing more of a feeling that the TR is coming from everywhere, if that makes sense.

Also, it’s not too sharp feeling in the chest like it used to be occasionally. I think them being about 1” lower than I used to have them pre 6” BOSS sub riser may have helped some, but also I think Audy was boosting the 68hz area a little too much on them previously, making them a little too aggressive feeling (or too sharp feeling in the chest I guess I could say with them being this close). Now that I’ve got plenty of subs spread out though, I can fix the problem pre-Audy.

LOVE LOVE LOVE the VNFs and now remember why I said I’d never be without them, no matter what other TR devices I’m running and or how great they might be. Almost didn’t think I needed them there for a while I guess, since I was so happy with the MAs and Sub Riser.

@Sekosche - I think your gonna be blown away by that 21” ported beast of a VNF sub your building, especially if you can get the drivers and even the port close to your back at the MLP.

In most cases I think, the combination is where the true magic is for the complete package though.

With that said, on to the BK LFEs. Over the last couple weeks or so, I had made the decision to retire them and take them out of the mix for different reasons that I may or nah not have mentioned in some of my previous posts.

So this is where they have been hanging out, as theater entryway decor LOL.


Just doesn’t seem right huh! LOL. I still have a lot of respect for them and know what they are capable of. I’ve enjoyed them immensely over the years and was pretty much the backbone of my 13-28hz TR power.

So, since I see them every time I go in and out of the theater, I thought I’d give them one more chance. Plus @Nalleh is still rocking them out in his new setup and loving them. So your partially responsible too for me to try them again. hmmmmm ...what’s wrong with the world here Nalleh, I nagged you into trying them in your system because I told you they are just so good at what they do, then you gave in and you love them. Now I go and take them out of my system, WTF!!?? Strange times man LOL

Ok, So on with it.

Short version: They are staying retired and out of the mix. I know, seriously, WTF rihgt!!??

Long version: It still amazes me that I don’t think I need these anymore. In fact, I think they just do more harm than good when it comes to the overall TR feel for whatever reason in my setup. Yes, they combine well like they should and add more TR. But, I’m just so happy with the precision, power, explosive and extreme feeling of realism (at least to me anyway) with the combo of BOSS sub riser, MAs and VNFs that the BKs just seem to mess this up for me just a little bit no matter how I set them I the mix.

Could be that I’m just loosing my skills to be able to integrate these bad boys these days or maybe it’s just my particular seating. IDK, maybe a little of both. I thought the wee the best things ever on my couch so used to use.

So there it is. Now I know and gave them one more try (again) and don’t have to always wonder if I’m leaving more on the table by not having them in the mix. I guess I’ll be remaining BK LFEless. The combo of everything else seems to be giving me everything I want right now though, which is cool.

That said, I know setups can always be better. There are things I could still do and try and may at some point. Like maybe even add some SLAPS to my BOSS subriser in place of my rear 3 JBL 12’s, or even just the one in the rear position under my middle seat MLP. I think it would work great actually. Maybe not, but I’d be real surprised if t didn’t after what Nalleh has done with his, even though mine would be really different than his.

Then there is the 24” VNF sub behind the MLP like I’ve always dreamed of. That would bring on the hurt in a big way I think, especially since I seem to love what an 18” can do.

Or, build some stands that will angle my 18’s at about a 45 degree angle so the entire driver covers the seat back from lower to higher, which would bypass he part of the driver firing into the lower crossbar and out it more on my body. I think could deliver some pretty serious upper body blows. Might be amazing, but then again, might be too localized feeling and the way I have it now may be better overall. Only one way to find out. I actually already have the wood to build it, just haven’t wanted to take the time to mess with it yet. Maybe one of these days if I get board.

But for now, time to just enjoy the heck out this bass and TR setup as is for quite a while first. I think I’m finally tired of tinkering and trying to squeeze ever last drop of awesomeness I can out of it lol.

Speaking of tweaking. I did some of that as well this last couple of days now that I’ve settled on a setup config. After REWing and VSing etc for all the objective stuff, I put all that away and just made a few adjustments here and there by the seat of my pants so to speak , mainly levels adjustments on a few components to feel and sound the best to my ears and other senses with a variety of good demo material. Also, played with more and less isos on top. Even differnt kinds. I kept coming back to just the 4 hifi Hudson soft isos on the back of the outer seat feet in between the MAs. Again just going by feel here because in the end that the ultimate test and what matters most, not what the VS shows. I knew from VS measurements that I lose a bit of TR from adding them in. I don't care though. It feels quite a bit better with them in there, especially in the ULF TR department. Such smooth, fluid, powerful and super realistic feeling ULF TR movement with them in place. Take them out, and I loose some of that. I could really tell a big diff on First Man and a few others I tested it on. Seems to work well with my more rigid seating, softening is just the right amount. Add isos to the front in additions though and it gets almost to much and looses a bit tos much detail.

After raising up my VNFs 6”, I found I liked my NFs 1 dB lower and the BOSS sub riser 1db lower as well. Then bumping sub trims 1/2db (Not that they were struggling or bottoming (I don’t think I’ve bottomed the 6x JBL 12’s yet with them in sub riser form yet, With ISOS under I did though trying to get enough low end)). It’s just that sometimes a bit -less- feels like -more-. A little cleaner and punchier and richer feeling. Kinda like running you’re subs too hot in the mix. Most of the time it doesn’t mean they are hitting their limits, it just sounds better if you back them off a bit to strike that perfect balance and harmony. So that may not sound like much with those tweaks I did, but really helped bring on the best feel and sound in my system I think. Sometime it doesn’t take much. I think I've got so much TR power I tap now, that it just comes down to the little things sometimes to get the best feel out of it all.

So that’s that. Then I also moved my 6 JBLs to one BK amp instead of split between two BK alps. So instead of 3 JBLs in series per one amp getting about 110-150 watts a piece, I’m now running them 3 JBLs in front in series and the other 3 in back in series and then running those together in parallel for a 6 ohm load instead of 12 ohm. I think that’s how that works anyway, probably doubling the power.

I had to turn the the BOSS sub riser down about 4db exactly in the mini to be the same level as before. Seems to be working great.

— kind of a funny story about the BKs amps thing — as if I haven’t typed out enough crap already LOL. When comparing the two ways ( 1 all vs 2 to power all 6 JBLs), when switching back to two amps at one point to compare, I somehow got the wrong polarity of the wires messed up. I use banana plugs and just wasn’t thinking right when I reconnected the wires back to the plugs. So it reversed the phase and I did t know it. When I don’t run the phase inverted on the BOSS, it totally cancels out all of my TR under about 12hz and under when combined with my other TR components. I scratched my head for about 30 minutes trying to figure out just what in the hell happened to all my 12hz and under TR that I usually have by the truckload. I should have known since I know this is what happens when the phase is not set right, but took me a while to figure out that I messed up the wiring. LOL.

I tell ya though, Folks that say 10-12hz and under is not that important and not worth chasing are dead wrong!!! With BEQ these days making all movie content full band, it felt like a major portion of my bass and TR was missing on some of my favorite demos that’s I’m so fond of and familiar with. Just crazy what those super lows add to the experience!! They are VERY important to say the least

So anyway, back on track. That gives me one freed up spare BK amp. So not sure what I’m gonna do with my 4 BK LFEs and extra BK amp now. I kind of want to keep them all just in case I ever change my mind and want them for whatever reason or in a future setup or something, since they do still hold a special place in my heart for all the joy they have brought me over the years LOL

Or I could try to sell them all I guess and maybe put that towards a new 4K projector. I’ve already started saving for a new 4 K projector, but need to start looking into what to get and try to educate my self a little bit on the PJ subject. Not sure if I should get another Epson (which I still love my Epson 5030, but probably need get with the times and to go 4k) or a JVC or Sony. Maybe even just go with the Epson 5040 (next step up from mine) for a little cheaper than some of the other 4Ks. Not sure how much I’m wanna spend. Could easily spend 5 grand or more I’m sure if I go to looking into the newest ones.

If anybody sees this, any recommendations on a 4k projector or thoughts are welcomed.

Ok guys, I now that was a very long winded post, had a lot I wanted to say I guess. Hopefully it didn’t bore you all to tears and the pics helped a little!!
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My "Blacked Out" Home Theater Room
1400cuft sealed room, suspended floor | SY Triple Black Velvet for Blackout | Denon AVR-X6300H - 7.6.4 Atmos | KEF Q Series Speakers | GIK Treatments | Oppo 203 | Epson 5040 4K | Eyes 7' to 120" AT Seymour Screen | 6x 18" Sealed DIY Subs (4x SI DS4-18s & 2x UM22-18s) | 6x Crowson MAs | 4x BK LFEs | BOSS 'Sub Riser' 6x JBL12s | MiniDSP 10x10HD
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post #300 of 329 Old 06-26-2019, 07:01 AM
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^^Alright, update time Love your updates, i seem to have shorter and more often updates, while you have fewer very long ones, LOL. Awsome

Well, with all your testing and trying, it sounds like you really have wringed the last drop of performance out of what you have now, and hearing that you are satisfies makes me very happy. The lifted VNF’s is the final icing on the cake, good job

Again some strange twists appear in that you didn’t like the BK’s anymore. It just proves that not all is set in stone, and needs to be tested.
For me they kind of completes the feeling that the cantilever BOSS starts in that it envelopes the TR trough the whole seat, not just "rear-centered" with just the BOSS.
Didn’t you try them sort of cantilevered? Maybe that is what you need now, since you have the BOSS under your seat. Kind of reverse of what my setup is. IDK.

Anyway if you are happy, that’s what matter, so just enjoy movies man Really glad to hear the wife is noticing/liking the improvements too, can’t beat that

Nice to hear you’re saving up to 4K PJ Can’t give to much advice there, as i still have the "fake" 4K JVC, but these new ones that are out now should be a nice improvement. I am clearly more of a audio guy, so my PJ has been left as is for a long time, so no upgrades planned there for the forseeable future
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Dual Atmos Receivers - Atmos 13.1.8/DTS X 9.1.8/Auro 3D 13.1 - Denon AVCX8500H+AVRX7200WA - Klipsch+KEF - 6xSI18" - 8xJBL 12" BOSS - 4xJBL 12" w/SLAPS M12" VNF - 3x2 stacked Crowson MA - 4xBK-LFE - 6xNU6K(fan&trig mod) - Minidsp 10x10HD - Oppo UDP203 - XBox OneX - Apple TV4K - JVC RS600 Dreamscreen V2 120"- Philips 65OLED873.
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