'Game of Thrones' on HBO HD - NO SPOILERS or Book Discussion - Page 418 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12511 of 13773 Old 05-02-2019, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Tack View Post
I don't expect them to have perfect strategy because "drama". But they were so bad that it pulls you out of the story. Luckily the soundless montage with the music overlay partially made up for that.





Two things I'm curious about. Were the wights that were burned by dragon fire and/or had dragon glass damage candidates for resurrection?



Also did our crew know beforehand that the NK could resurrect at will? If that were the case, the best battle plan would have included making haste for the Iron Islands and try to scratch out a decent life. Of course, you'd turn Euron's fleet into a campfire on the way out. Other than Arya's miracle, that would have been a no win no matter the numbers. Actually worse with big numbers as you'd just increase the attacking force with every casualty.


Jon has seen him do it at hardhome. The bodies I saw get up were the “friendlies”, the wights that were killed with fire/dragonglass stayed dead.
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post #12512 of 13773 Old 05-02-2019, 08:41 PM
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Finally got around to watching on my 10 year old 50" Panny plasma. looks great, can see well in the darkness, no adjustments needed. Streaming HBO-GO

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post #12513 of 13773 Old 05-02-2019, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Tack View Post
I don't expect them to have perfect strategy because "drama". But they were so bad that it pulls you out of the story. Luckily the soundless montage with the music overlay partially made up for that.


Two things I'm curious about. Were the wights that were burned by dragon fire and/or had dragon glass damage candidates for resurrection?

Also did our crew know beforehand that the NK could resurrect at will? If that were the case, the best battle plan would have included making haste for the Iron Islands and try to scratch out a decent life. Of course, you'd turn Euron's fleet into a campfire on the way out. Other than Arya's miracle, that would have been a no win no matter the numbers. Actually worse with big numbers as you'd just increase the attacking force with every casualty.
for me it wasn't one thing that made the episode a tad disappointing...it was a combination of things- the bad battle plans, the video/audio were subpar (made worse by cable compression), the battle itself was so heavily hyped (55 straight night shoots, biggest battle ever in TV or movies etc), this was overall one of the weaker battle episodes (Battle for Castle Black might have even been better), the fact that's it's the final season with only 6 episodes magnifies the shortcomings even more...

as far as the wights- dragonglass, Valyrian steel and fire permanently kills them (as well as killing the White Walker that created them)...so since pretty much every weapon was forged from dragonglass it means that every one killed should have stayed dead...so I'm not sure how exactly the Night King was able to resurrect so many
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post #12514 of 13773 Old 05-02-2019, 09:16 PM
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The night king only resurrected troops form the good side which there were a lot of.
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post #12515 of 13773 Old 05-02-2019, 10:05 PM
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I'm not a prude by any stretch but I could only get thru about 2 minutes of the video due to the narrator's language. Totally unnecessary.
Totally awesome and hilarious - loved it - he said what I felt

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Well that happened wasn’t the plan...the plan went out the window when the Dothraki were eliminated and Daeny decided to “go in early”. Dothraki aren’t traditional cavalry either (at least as we have seen them in battle ). How do you prepare against an army that hasn’t been fought in hundreds of not thousands of years with unknown numbers? The catapults were also largely ineffective as they were extinguished quickly. It was a FUBAR situation from the get go, not sure any plan would have worked any better outside of “looks”
So the plan was to sacrifice a good chunk of your force with a cavalry charge? I'm sorry...in no world - real or fantasy - does that tactic make ANY SENSE -

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post #12516 of 13773 Old 05-02-2019, 10:29 PM
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Ghost is still alive...

thread closed
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post #12517 of 13773 Old 05-02-2019, 10:49 PM
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Oh, and the whole Arya sneaking scene seemed out of place and dumb. There is a WAR taking place that encompases the entire keep, and this zombie sneak room is happening in silence.

This was their planned downtime because viewers cant take nonstop action - as deemed by benioff and weiss. It was out of place, better used in some other episode that wasn't war. It was probably a scene someone came up with a while back and they were running out of time to make it happen, so why not here and now.
There is a theory out there that Jon Snow stood in front of Viserion and yelled "Go! Go! Go!" to tell Arya to go while he distracted Viserion whose job it seems was to keep Jon Snow away from the NK.

Oh, and the Winterfell tactics seemed totally stupid.

This video breaks it down the stupidity faster and with less effing language.


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post #12518 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 01:13 AM
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Lol, now everyone is a military tactician.
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post #12519 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 04:43 AM
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This is a show about entertainment, not military tactics. I served in the U.S. Army, and we never had any training for fighting the dead.


Everything in the episode was done to illicit an emotion, such as the the swords extinguishing in the distance. To show how daunting a task it would be.


I loved every minute of it, including Arya's scene. Did you notice that all the action stopped while the NK was making contact with Bran? It seemed he put all his minions on pause while he was admiring the situation.


We all have a right to our opinions, I'm just thankful I don't look for, or dwell on flaws, in what I choose to watch. Maybe I'm just blissfully ignorant.
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post #12520 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 04:56 AM
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when Episode 4 airs everyone will forget about the dark image and military tactics of Episode 3...hopefully the remaining episodes will take place mostly in the daylight...only 3 episodes left...
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post #12521 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post
as far as the wights- dragonglass, Valyrian steel and fire permanently kills them (as well as killing the White Walker that created them)...so since pretty much every weapon was forged from dragonglass it means that every one killed should have stayed dead...so I'm not sure how exactly the Night King was able to resurrect so many

Someone can correct me but I don't know if the Unsullied spears had dragonglass tips. There were enough shots of them that we should be able to see if they're black or not. I don't know if the Freefolk weapons were all dragonglass, either.

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post #12522 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 05:55 AM
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Since we seen a huge amount of dragon glass being brought in and seen it being made I think it safe to assume everybody SHOULD have had dragon glass weapons. The fire swords was the director putting style over substance. If anyone else was without a wight killing weapon it was a directorial mistake or maybe a attempt to save money thinking people wouldn't notice in the dark.
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post #12523 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 06:02 AM
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Since we seen a huge amount of dragon glass being brought in and seen it being made I think it safe to assume everybody SHOULD have had dragon glass weapons. The fire swords was the director putting style over substance. If anyone else was without a wight killing weapon it was a directorial mistake or maybe a attempt to save money thinking people wouldn't notice in the dark.
Dragonglass, or fire, causes the dead to become dead again.

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post #12524 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 06:28 AM
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This is a show about entertainment, not military tactics. I served in the U.S. Army, and we never had any training for fighting the dead.


Everything in the episode was done to illicit an emotion, such as the the swords extinguishing in the distance. To show how daunting a task it would be.


I loved every minute of it, including Arya's scene. Did you notice that all the action stopped while the NK was making contact with Bran? It seemed he put all his minions on pause while he was admiring the situation.


We all have a right to our opinions, I'm just thankful I don't look for, or dwell on flaws, in what I choose to watch. Maybe I'm just blissfully ignorant.
Yep. Besides it's always a good idea to remember Rule One of battle tactics: No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy.
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post #12525 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 07:32 AM
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Who thinks the powers that be realized they had a "stinker" episode and intentionally made the episode almost unwatchable to distract the viewers? At our house we alternated between saying "that's stupid/dumb/really???" to "can you tell what's happening?"

Also, I wouldn't call what they (good guys) came up with a "battle plan". Okay here's the plan: We are going to put all our troops outside the barricades/walls and we are going to have them charge an unseen enemy in the dark. While they are being slaughtered and turned into more dead troops, we'll put Bran out as bait with a handful of protectors and hope dragon fire or someone gets a shot at the Night King. Oh, and let's put our weak in the Crypts with the "dead" for safety with no reserve troops or keep reserve troops for the walls or inside fighting. (Come on...we called the dead popping out at our house as soon as they went to the crypts.)

Now here is a plan of battle: Cersei refusing to send troops and keeping them to face either the "good guy" survivors or Night King/dead while hiring additional troops and "buying a navy" with her body. Now she should easily be able to mop up the dozen or so surviving "good guy" troops while having the bulk of her forces concentrate on shooting down any surviving dragons or killing their "mother".

Go Cersei.
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post #12526 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 07:46 AM
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I suppose it's good this was not the Series Finale ..
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post #12527 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 07:56 AM
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Yep. Besides it's always a good idea to remember Rule One of battle tactics: No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy.
Haha. Exactly. I love all the armchair fictional military strategizers critiquing the battle plans. I think Mike Tyson said it best in an old interview about boxing strategies:
"People were asking me [before a fight], 'What’s going to happen?,' " Tyson said. "They were talking about his style. 'He's going to give you a lot of lateral movement. He's going to move, he's going to dance. He's going to do this, do that.' I said, "Everybody has a plan until they get hit. Then, like a rat, they stop in fear and freeze."

Yup! You could have all the best plans in the world. Once the veritable $%[email protected] hits the fan, all bets are off.


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post #12528 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 08:01 AM
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I've said it before .. as ex-Military myself, considering the circumstances, no plan would have worked .. the ability of the NK to raise the dead, in and of itself .. NK was the key, had he not been taken out, the Horde would be marching to Kings Landing ..
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post #12529 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 08:15 AM
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I find this theory that Bran is the key to the ultimate resolution intriguing. In essence, the theory goes that Bran morphing into the Tree-Eyed Raven has given him too many powers which have corrupted him into the ultimate evil and whereas his predecessor Three-eyed Raven was insnared in the roots of the Tree Of Life, he is not and is free to seek ultimate power. His warging off for some unknown purpose at the height of the Battle of Winterfell only adds to the mystery of his intentions.

Read the theory here —

https://www.inverse.com/article/5545...ight-king-good
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post #12530 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 08:19 AM
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I've said it before .. as ex-Military myself, considering the circumstances, no plan would have worked .. the ability of the NK to raise the dead, in and of itself .. NK was the key, had he not been taken out, the Horde would be marching to Kings Landing ..


One of the articles of “experts” says as much. They critique the plan, in the end though they say there was no easy way to plan against the enemy that was put forth.
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post #12531 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 08:19 AM
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Even though I've hatched a few of my own, at this point, I'm so tired of theories, sometimes I think HBO has a back room gang seeding the Web with them just to fuel the fire ..

Is it Sunday yet .. ??
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post #12532 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 08:22 AM
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As I said earlier, though it would be a very anticlimactic battle if successful, would be to have a 1/2 dozen Gillie suited Carlos Hathcock caliber snipers of old, hidden in their hides, Valayrian steel tipped arrows notched in their crossbows at the ready. The Night King makes his appearance, a nicely placed shaft hits home, crumples to dust, followed by his minions.
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post #12533 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 08:54 AM
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As I said earlier, though it would be a very anticlimactic battle if successful, would be to have a 1/2 dozen Gillie suited Carlos Hathcock caliber snipers of old, hidden in their hides, Valayrian steel dipped arrows notched in their crossbows at the ready. The Night King makes his appearance, a nicely placed shaft hits home, crumples to dust, followed by his minions.
Or, Ygritte's Twin Sister Egritte, who is also an expert archer, just like Ygritte, swings down from a stray vine hanging off the Weirwood Tree and nails the NK with a single Valyrian Steel arrow, just exactly in the right spot .. and they all lived Happily Ever After ..

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post #12534 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 09:27 AM
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I think the objections to the tactics are very basic objections: light calvary doesn't charge into the unknown, why have your ballistics in front of your infantry, if fire is your best defense, why aren't you using more of it, why didn't you have more soldiers/archers insider the castle, why weren't they using basic castle defenses such as oil and fire over the walls?, why not line the walls with dragonglass spikes, why not use the dragons at least to help the Dothraki? You don't have to be a military brain to understand why this is all really stupid.

I understand that they had an ending in mind which meant a decimation of the armies and a sole person killing the NK when all looked lost but that is really a standard trope and they went for the typical type of ending. I get that it is manipulation but GoT was supposed to be something better than that and now it is standard stuff.

Lastly, adpayne, I am shocked and stunned that you were not taught how to fight the dead in the military. Our forces are vulnerable to the zombie apocalypse? Now I'm not going to sleep at night.

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post #12535 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 09:29 AM
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I know Ghost survived the long night. I wonder if Ghost kills Cersei in revenge for Summers' unjust demise on her orders?
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post #12536 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 09:32 AM
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I think the battle plan critique took a life of its own lol. Though for the life of me I do not understand how a "bad" battle plan makes an episode awful. If that is the case, avoid The Charge of the Light Brigade. As I said before and others have said there was no plan that anyone could have come up with. It was always coming down to a heroic moment, I will also echo that I served in the infantry(reserves) but that does not make me a battle master, not even 30 years of creating and playing war strategy games would prepare me for the tidal wave of born again whites...lol
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post #12537 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 09:33 AM
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when Episode 4 airs everyone will forget about the dark image and military tactics of Episode 3...hopefully the remaining episodes will take place mostly in the daylight...only 3 episodes left...
Don't worry, people will complain about Cersei doing something or not doing something. Complain about Dany confronting Jon about his heritage or not confronting him. Complaining about Sansa cooperating with Dany or not cooperating.

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post #12538 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 09:35 AM
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If Arya can sneak by hundreds of wights I'm sure she can sneak past Cersi's guards and kill her. The only question I have is Sir Pounce still alive and if so does he take out Ghost.
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post #12539 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 09:42 AM
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I am awaiting the future youtube vids of, How Game Of Thrones should have ended. Like this idea I thought about when I read Lord Of the Rings as a wee lad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqV...&frags=pl%2Cwn
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post #12540 of 13773 Old 05-03-2019, 09:51 AM
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This is a show about entertainment, not military tactics. I served in the U.S. Army, and we never had any training for fighting the dead.
I'm sorry, I don't agree and this is very OFF theme for the rest of the seasons (besides maybe Season 7 which was also sort of a mess). GRRM has always kept the battles and wars very life-like and realistic - people die and only good battle tactics/strategy win wars. I would hope the US Army isn't training in medieval strategy - though you can never be too sure today with the state of the Federal Government (I digress)

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Maybe I'm just blissfully ignorant.
Wish I could get there...

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Haha. Exactly. I love all the armchair fictional military strategizers critiquing the battle plans. ]
When it defies common sense? Yes, its less about criticizing the tactics and more criticizing the writing and the writers insulting the audience intelligence to move the narrative forward - because the episode was totally insulting. GOT was never a show where you just turn off your brain and let the pretty colors and sound wash over you so that you are entertained - that is not why it was such a strong show.

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Originally Posted by daryl zero View Post
I think the objections to the tactics are very basic objections: light calvary doesn't charge into the unknown, why have your ballistics in front of your infantry, if fire is your best defense, why aren't you using more of it, why didn't you have more soldiers/archers insider the castle, why weren't they using basic castle defenses such as oil and fire over the walls?, why not line the walls with dragonglass spikes, why not use the dragons at least to help the Dothraki? You don't have to be a military brain to understand why this is all really stupid.

I understand that they had an ending in mind which meant a decimation of the armies and a sole person killing the NK when all looked lost but that is really a standard trope and they went for the typical type of ending. I get that it is manipulation but GoT was supposed to be something better than that and now it is standard stuff.

Lastly, adpayne, I am shocked and stunned that you were not taught how to fight the dead in the military. Our forces are vulnerable to the zombie apocalypse? Now I'm not going to sleep at night.
Thank you
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Josh
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