'Game of Thrones' on HBO HD - NO SPOILERS or Book Discussion - Page 452 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #13531 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 10:23 AM
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But they didn't, and weren't. What they could have done doesn't really matter.

"
Massive chunks of walls were falling around them in the previous episode. The cave was collapsing.

Tyrion found them under a pile of bricks in the middle of an open room.

Dumb.
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post #13532 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 10:26 AM
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Meanwhile, there's a dragon out there. If he has a bad day, these folks are all toast.
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post #13533 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by RobertR View Post
Grey Worm viewed banishment from the kingdom as a punishment, even if Jon didn't view it as such. That was the deception.

There was obviously sufficient wealth remaining for Bronn to be interested. He talked about reestablishing the brothels. I think he saw that as being extremely profitable for him. Why would you assume huge debt to the Iron Bank, since you just said that Cersei obtained wealth from High Garden?

The Iron Islands and Dorne chose to be loyal to Bran. You want to know why people in general swear allegiance to a king, other than "if you don't do so, I'll kill you"? That's really a question beyond the scope of the story.

See above. What's a "true king" to you? Someone who threatens to kill people if they don't bend the knee? They had just gotten rid of someone with that attitude.

Why would people rebel against Bran?
How do you know that Grey Worm viewed banishment as punishment?

Regarding Bronn, that's my point exactly. With what money was he doing anything? Cersei used the gold from High Garden to pay previous debts to the Iron Bank that the Lannisters had run up while Robert was king and while Cersei and her kids were ruling. She then borrowed more money from the Iron Bank to hire the Golden Company and probably was paying a ton of money for the transportation of the Golden Company and all the soldiers and scorpions she hired/put up. Or did you think those were free?

Here's a good video that covers the Iron Bank debt. This is an issue more important in the books that is just given lip service in the tv show.


The Iron Islands and Dorne have no reason to be loyal to Bran. They are far away and will essentially have no reason to be loyal to Bran.

That's the whole thing, the ruler of Westeros was started by a Targaryen who brought over dragons to conquer the 7 kingdoms because they needed to be ready to fight the NK and work together. Since then, it certainly has been kneel or I'll kill you. Now the NK is gone and there is basically no stated reason why the 7 kingdoms need to be united. Because Sansa declined to be part of it, that weakened Bran significantly -- especially since Sansa might have the only cohesive army left.

The people aren't going to rebel (since apparently they never do this in this world) but some other lord or lady is going to amass power and then think they should be ruler.

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post #13534 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR View Post
Grey Worm viewed banishment from the kingdom as a punishment, even if Jon didn't view it as such. That was the deception.


There was obviously sufficient wealth remaining for Bronn to be interested. He talked about reestablishing the brothels. I think he saw that as being extremely profitable for him. Why would you assume huge debt to the Iron Bank, since you just said that Cersei obtained wealth from High Garden?



The Iron Islands and Dorne chose to be loyal to Bran. You want to know why people in general swear allegiance to a king, other than "if you don't do so, I'll kill you"? That's really a question beyond the scope of the story.



See above. What's a "true king" to you? Someone who threatens to kill people if they don't bend the knee? They had just gotten rid of someone with that attitude.






Why would people rebel against Bran?
As per my post above, sending JS to the wall was in essence, setting him free. I can't comment on how deceptive it was to GW but he agreed so it must have been to a degree.

I am curious as to the "wealth" of highgarden-no idea what was left though the lands are good and the castle is huge. If they have a tax and/or tithe system-it should be flush. Cersei paid the past debt to the Iron Bank in full. The only thing i'm unclear about is whether the hiring of the golden company incurred new debt or not?

It appeared as though everyone at the council meeting was very receptive to change. None of them came from a place of expecting or desiring the throne for themselves so the appointment of Bran and they being in agreement fits. As to how effective he is/can be? I believe he manipulated his way to this end. As someone who can see the past/present/possibly future? i would expect he's more than capable of dealing with usurpers or threats to the realm. If his goal is peace and prosperity, there is no one more capable than someone who can see everything playing out without being there.
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post #13535 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by chrischaos View Post
I am curious as to the "wealth" of highgarden-no idea what was left though the lands are good and the castle is huge. If they have a tax and/or tithe system-it should be flush. Cersei paid the past debt to the Iron Bank in full. The only thing i'm unclear about is whether the hiring of the golden company incurred new debt or not?
There are videos of Cersei talking to the Iron Bank rep about wanting to incur new expenses and the video above has some if not all of them. Plus general information about the huge debt the crown already owed.

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post #13536 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 10:45 AM
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A thing wrong with that scene is, there is no real way that Tyrion would have any idea where his bro and sis would be. To just assume that they somehow ended up down there, laying under that pile of bricks is a bit of a stretch. Plus if the roof did come down on them, I doubt they would have looked as good as they did, they would have been squashed to jelly, as if a giant troll sat on them.
Actually, Tyrion led Jaime to that spot and told him there would be a boat waiting outside. When he saw that the passage to outside was blocked, he started looking for Jaime under the rubble.
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post #13537 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by daryl zero View Post
How do you know that Grey Worm viewed banishment as punishment?
Did you think he viewed it as a reward?


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Regarding Bronn, that's my point exactly. With what money was he doing anything?
Bronn obviously thought there was something left (he was there), enough to make it worth his while. He would use his position as Master of Coin to amass more wealth.


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The Iron Islands and Dorne have no reason to be loyal to Bran. They are far away and will essentially have no reason to be loyal to Bran.
They have no reason not to be, either.

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That's the whole thing, the ruler of Westeros was started by a Targaryen who brought over dragons to conquer the 7 kingdoms because they needed to be ready to fight the NK and work together. Since then, it certainly has been kneel or I'll kill you. Now the NK is gone and there is basically no stated reason why the 7 kingdoms need to be united.
As I said, the reasons for choosing to swear allegiance to a king other than "if you don't, I'll kill you" are beyond the scope of the story. Did you think it made no sense for Brienne to swear to protect people, since there was "nothing in it for her"?

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The people aren't going to rebel (since apparently they never do this in this world) but some other lord or lady is going to amass power and then think they should be ruler.
Who better to be able to foresee this and plan to deal with it than Bran?
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post #13538 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 10:52 AM
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Many of the complaints of the finale is due to some not recognizing the clues provided to them. When the clues are too obvious, then they complain how stupid the show is for spoonfeeding them. Advent of the internet has given impetus to many of these "opinions" and skew perspectives for others.


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post #13539 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 10:57 AM
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The Iron Islands and Dorne have no reason to be loyal to Bran. They are far away and will essentially have no reason to be loyal to Bran.

They don't necessarily but if they want peace (which they appear to do) then they will. Agreeing with his appointment tells me they are happy enough with someone on the throne who isn't a war monger nor dictating how they conduct their own houses. Of course, that's just my opinion.

That's the whole thing, the ruler of Westeros was started by a Targaryen who brought over dragons to conquer the 7 kingdoms because they needed to be ready to fight the NK and work together. Since then, it certainly has been kneel or I'll kill you. Now the NK is gone and there is basically no stated reason why the 7 kingdoms need to be united. Because Sansa declined to be part of it, that weakened Bran significantly -- especially since Sansa might have the only cohesive army left.

I don't recall this as fact at all. I don't believe it's ever been stated as to the why the Targs settled in westros but am certain it had nothing to do with the WW. Others had ruled before them and they have never been involved (before Dany) with fighting the WW or defending the realm from the NK.
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post #13540 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by RobertR View Post
Did you think he viewed it as a reward?

Bronn obviously thought there was something left (he was there), enough to make it worth his while. He would use his position as Master of Coin to amass more wealth.

They have no reason not to be, either.

As I said, the reasons for choosing to swear allegiance to a king other than "if you don't, I'll kill you" are beyond the scope of the story. Did you think it made no sense for Brienne to swear to protect people, since there was "nothing in it for her"?

Who better to be able to foresee this and plan to deal with it than Bran?
My last go at this or we'll just agree to differ.

I thought Grey Worm was just realizing that there was no more war and talking through things was not his forte. We don't know how the negotiations went other than what Tyrion told Jon.

The Master of Coin is essentially the Treasurer. He uses money from the realm, not his own money unless he wants to loan it which would be stupid when he can make easier money by taking bribes.

Uh, if Bran has no power anywhere, what's the point of him being a king other than he tell Yara that the Iron Islands are exactly where they are supposed to be?

For Brienne, heck yes. Nights and the like need masters to pay for their expenses and give them food, clothing and shelter.

We've seen Bran be completely useless in battles such as Bran's plans for the battle of the dead and in the war against KL. I still don't know what good his precognition would be if he can't do anything about it.

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post #13541 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 11:00 AM
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There are videos of Cersei talking to the Iron Bank rep about wanting to incur new expenses and the video above has some if not all of them. Plus general information about the huge debt the crown already owed.
That vid does not show anything beyond what i asked. While he infers he's there to help, there is no confirmation the banks funding was needed for the golden company and if you watch that scene without the conspiracy theorist commentary, you know the previous debt the crown amassed was paid in full.
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post #13542 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 11:02 AM
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That vid does not show anything beyond what i asked. While he infers he's there to help, there is no confirmation the banks funding was needed for the golden company and if you watch that scene without the conspiracy theorist commentary, you know the previous debt the crown amassed was paid in full.
That I know which was extremely convenient given that it was years and years of Tywin borrowing money and putting the crown into massive debt. I am assuming, based upon Cersei's statement that she needed more money from the Iron Bank that this was more debt because (duh) she wouldn't need the Iron Bank to fund her new armies and navies if she already had the money.

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post #13543 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 11:05 AM
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We've seen Bran be completely useless in battles such as Bran's plans for the battle of the dead and in the war against KL. I still don't know what good his precognition would be if he can't do anything about it.

Think you missed a lot-he saw and set in motion every event leading to the NK's defeat including where he was, arya's dagger, etc etc etc. During the battle he wargs into ravens and fly's to the NK to draw him in.
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post #13544 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 11:10 AM
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My last go at this or we'll just agree to differ.

I thought Grey Worm was just realizing that there was no more war and talking through things was not his forte. We don't know how the negotiations went other than what Tyrion told Jon.
He was content with having Jon being banished from the kingdom. No reason for him to go to war over it.

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The Master of Coin is essentially the Treasurer. He uses money from the realm, not his own money unless he wants to loan it which would be stupid when he can make easier money by taking bribes.
Hmmm, you've given Bronn a good motivation for being Master of Coin. You can bet he'll get wealthy from being so.


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For Brienne, heck yes. Nights and the like need masters to pay for their expenses and give them food, clothing and shelter.
Still doesn't explain why she chose to be loyal to those particular people. When she was defending Arya, what money did Arya have to pay her with? None that I saw.

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We've seen Bran be completely useless in battles such as Bran's plans for the battle of the dead and in the war against KL. I still don't know what good his precognition would be if he can't do anything about it.
Well, things turned out very well for him. Did he influence these events? We see indications that he did so.

Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree.
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post #13545 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 11:13 AM
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That I know which was extremely convenient given that it was years and years of Tywin borrowing money and putting the crown into massive debt. I am assuming, based upon Cersei's statement that she needed more money from the Iron Bank that this was more debt because (duh) she wouldn't need the Iron Bank to fund her new armies and navies if she already had the money.
You could be right-i honestly don't know if the loan was there for the golden company or not but it does appear as it was certainly discussed. Nothing of that storyline has much of an effect on what's transpired though. Even if the current crown owes a debt, they'll find a way to pay.
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post #13546 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 11:14 AM
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Imagine if Jon wasn't banished to the NW.

He would be seen as one of the greatest warriors in the realm. He'd get so much adoring young women in KL, Dorne or any of the kingdoms in the realm.

He could be doing a grand tour.

It wouldn't be very long before he'd be like "Dany who?"
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post #13547 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Erod View Post
Massive chunks of walls were falling around them in the previous episode. The cave was collapsing.

Tyrion found them under a pile of bricks in the middle of an open room.

Dumb.
Indeed massive chunks of wall did fall around them, and on them. That doesn't mean every spot had a cave in with rubble. It looked like it fell in several areas to me. The dust from such things can make it look like a total cave-in. That doesn't make it so.

Are Cersei/Jaime supposed to know exactly where it will not fall in and stand accordingly?
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post #13548 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 11:31 AM
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If they wanted to placate Greyworm, they would not only give the Unsullied lands but maybe some orphans, so they have a chance to repopulate and build up an Unsullied kingdom.

Maybe some meisters could device IVF or something.
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post #13549 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 12:03 PM
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I had multiple problems with this season (actually season 7 too)... pretty much the standard complaints, too rushed, lazy writing, nonsensical dialogue, characters all becoming complete idiots, and so on.

But I mostly didn't have a problem where the story ended up. It was the journey that was the problem.

Bran's story is a problem however, at least as portrayed in the show. Nothing really makes sense there. He spends his entire character arc becoming the 3-eyed raven, with all-seeing, all-knowing superpowers, then pretty much doesn't use any of them and they play very little role in the story. The entire whitewalker/bran thing also never really made much sense either.

But I read an article the other day with a Bran theory that kind of makes sense. Well, it makes more sense than what the show portrays.

Basically it's theorizing what if Bran is now actually the previous 3-eyed raven? Or to be exact, the 3-eyed crow --- i.e. Brynden Rivers/BloodRaven (Max Von Sydow)? It would tie in with Bran's loss of personality much better, which otherwise makes very little sense. Bran comes out and says he's not really Bran anymore ... he may mean that literally. There is no reason to assume the original 3-eyed raven is benevolent, and he does have the ability to see into the past/future as well as change bodies. I haven't read the books, and don't know if we are allowed to even mention much about them in this thread, but the books apparently go into much more detail in regard to his background --- he's a Targaryen, previously was Hand to several kings, etc. While the White Walkers may have a Stark connection.

Anyway, if the 3-eyed raven/crow/Brynden was just playing the very long game here, things begin to make more sense. It might also untangle the white walker storyline into something that makes a smidgen more sense too.

I still don't buy the scene where Bran was chosen as king ... that was nonsensical. But at the very least the overall story makes much more sense if Bran isn't Bran anymore and not just figuratively.

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post #13550 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 02:05 PM
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Grey Worm viewed banishment from the kingdom as a punishment, even if Jon didn't view it as such. That was the deception.
Yup. Jon was like "Please don't throw me in that briar patch!" with a wink and a nod.
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post #13551 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 06:11 PM
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That I know which was extremely convenient given that it was years and years of Tywin borrowing money and putting the crown into massive debt. I am assuming, based upon Cersei's statement that she needed more money from the Iron Bank that this was more debt because (duh) she wouldn't need the Iron Bank to fund her new armies and navies if she already had the money.
I must have missed her statement saying she needed more money from the iron bank?

I saw her say she had interest in the Golden Company, but nothing from her saying she needed the Iron Bank to make it happen.

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post #13552 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 06:24 PM
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I must have missed her statement saying she needed more money from the iron bank?

I saw her say she had interest in the Golden Company, but nothing from her saying she needed the Iron Bank to make it happen.
The video in my post above 13533 at the very end has part of that discussion at about 12:10. In the fuller videos, she mentions needs to pay armies and navies. This is before the gold comes to repay the outstanding debt (when they looted High Garden).

Or you can look at the video below starting at about 2:40.

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post #13553 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 08:11 PM
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One thing I thought would have been cool, and half expected, was when Brienne finished her addendum on Jamie's Knight page. She get's up and leaves the frame, backs up because she notices a mirror. Looks into the mirror for a second and then lifts her shirt slightly to reveal a little preggo bulge. Awww.

I also half expected during the final moments of Jon's ride into the white wasteland to see the faint shadow of some dragon wings.
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post #13554 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 08:31 PM
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One thing I thought would have been cool, and half expected, was when Brienne finished her addendum on Jamie's Knight page. She get's up and leaves the frame, backs up because she notices a mirror. Looks into the mirror for a second and then lifts her shirt slightly to reveal a little preggo bulge. Awww.

I also half expected during the final moments of Jon's ride into the white wasteland to see the faint shadow of some dragon wings.
I thought for a sec Brienne was preggo too. Would also have been cool if the final shot of Bran revealed blue eyes.

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post #13555 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Waboman View Post
I thought for a sec Brienne was preggo too. Would also have been cool if the final shot of Bran revealed blue eyes.
If you're looking for an Invasion of the Body Snatchers type ending, you could have Donald Sutherland as a wight appear, point at Bran and screech.
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post #13556 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 09:30 PM
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Imagine if Jon wasn't banished to the NW.

He would be seen as one of the greatest warriors in the realm. He'd get so much adoring young women in KL, Dorne or any of the kingdoms in the realm.

He could be doing a grand tour.

It wouldn't be very long before he'd be like "Dany who?"
He could travel under the nickname "Queenslayer".
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post #13557 of 13717 Old 05-22-2019, 09:42 PM
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He could travel under the nickname "Queenslayer".
Funny but that sounds like a nickname for a Casanova type. He's a queenslayer, nudge nudge.
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post #13558 of 13717 Old 05-23-2019, 03:24 PM
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reminder: it's not over yet...HBO will be airing that 2 hour Behind-the-Scenes documentary on the filming of Season 8 this coming Sunday...
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post #13559 of 13717 Old 05-23-2019, 03:37 PM
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I think there has been some kind of documentary available on HBO Go for awhile.

Maybe it's not the same one?
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post #13560 of 13717 Old 05-23-2019, 03:53 PM
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I think there has been some kind of documentary available on HBO Go for awhile.



Maybe it's not the same one?


Not the same one (not sure which one you’re referring to maybe the Game Revealed specials they do). This is a “special” behind the scenes doc about the making of the last season beginning to end.
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