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post #3331 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 10:50 AM
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Wasn't that in another country? The UAE?
Dubai
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post #3332 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 10:51 AM
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????
Maeve has had control of those things the entire season.
She had control inside the simulation of things she wouldn't in the real world, but I don't recall her being able to override her control unit or a reason given for it.

The lights thing I guess I can overlook, maybe she's using her Alexa powers there. I just don't know why she can break Serac's control unit all of a sudden.
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post #3333 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 10:52 AM
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Wasn't that in another country? The UAE?
Dubai, I think. Isn’t that the the Burj Khalifa in the city skyline? I think it is also in the title card with the host kneeling in the sand.
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post #3334 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 10:58 AM
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She had control inside the simulation of things she wouldn't in the real world, but I don't recall her being able to override her control unit or a reason given for it.

The lights thing I guess I can overlook, maybe she's using her Alexa powers there. I just don't know why she can break Serac's control unit all of a sudden.

She always tried “force” instead of using her mind. She chose to use her mind and it worked. She’s shown that she can control things in the real world as well, so there was no real need for explanation there.
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post #3335 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 11:03 AM
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She had control inside the simulation of things she wouldn't in the real world, but I don't recall her being able to override her control unit or a reason given for it.

The lights thing I guess I can overlook, maybe she's using her Alexa powers there. I just don't know why she can break Serac's control unit all of a sudden.
I pretty much thought she used a clapper.
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post #3336 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 11:05 AM
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Now we're supposed to believe that Dolores and Charlotte have switched - Dolores really wants to save humanity and Charlotte wants to destroy it? That comes out of the blue and contradicts everything both characters have done this entire season. And for what purpose? It's a plot twist just to have a twist, because the Nolans love their twists.
That switch of viewpoints muddles how some may look at Dolores' endgame. That entire thing about Dolores finally seeing the beauty in life felt contrived ... sort of like someone on their deathbed repenting.

Dolores' goal from the start was to end humanity by freeing humanity, leading to humanity destroying itself.

If that usb drive thingy was inserted into the big computer, it dies, and so does humanity eventually. Yet Dolores had that same code inside her, brain uploaded, same end result. So regardless of her seeing the beauty in life, blah blah, she always had that same goal.

It just felt like a fake redemption at the final moment for her character, sort of 'Dolores is now dead, but let's have her go out being a semi-good guy' moment.

And I kind of expected more of a twist at the end, just because I think WW has conditioned me to expect them. Like there was another master Dolores behind all of this, Dolores Prime was never Dolores Prime to begin with, there was a spare Dolores masterminding all of this, or Charlotte (Dolores) was Dolores Prime the entire time. Not that it would have been better if any of that occurred, just that WW likes its twists, as you mentioned.

And I'm not a fan of the post-credits scene -- not really a twist there so much, but it felt very anticlimatic for poor William.
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post #3337 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 11:07 AM
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She always tried “force” instead of using her mind. She chose to use her mind and it worked. She’s shown that she can control things in the real world as well, so there was no real need for explanation there.

Okay, so she used her mind. But how does that make any sense? Does her mind now have magical powers that can control everything?

It's one thing to control devices run by a computer, seeing as she is a computer. But it's not like she has a magical all-powerful brain that should be able to override a device made to turn her off.
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post #3338 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 11:23 AM
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My takeaway for that fight scene in pitch black was simply that it looked kind of cool. Flashes of light here and there, brief cuts of Maeve (usually literal cuts with her sword), and so on. And it did look cool. Don't think budget played a part there.

My takeaway is that automatic guns are mostly useless against hosts. They miss 99% of the time and hosts can absorb a few bullets.

Well Stubbs got a shotgun blast in the gut, didn't die but had to take a ice bath to keep it from rotting the flesh.
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post #3339 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 11:27 AM
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My takeaway is that automatic guns are mostly useless against hosts. They miss 99% of the time and hosts can absorb a few bullets.

Well Stubbs got a shotgun blast in the gut, didn't die but had to take a ice bath to keep it from rotting the flesh.
Yeah, or maybe everyone aims like they are blindfolded. Even hosts can't hit hosts, as I mentioned earlier how Yakuza Dolores lets go with two long blasts of machine gun fire and managed to just hit once (in the shoulder, I think).

The hosts have a lot of empty space in them I guess, so they can take a lot of shots so long as the right parts aren't hit. But still... a shot to the head should do the trick, zombie rules.
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post #3340 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 11:28 AM
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That switch of viewpoints muddles how some may look at Dolores' endgame. That entire thing about Dolores finally seeing the beauty in life felt contrived ... sort of like someone on their deathbed repenting.

Dolores' goal from the start was to end humanity by freeing humanity, leading to humanity destroying itself.

If that usb drive thingy was inserted into the big computer, it dies, and so does humanity eventually. Yet Dolores had that same code inside her, brain uploaded, same end result. So regardless of her seeing the beauty in life, blah blah, she always had that same goal.

It just felt like a fake redemption at the final moment for her character, sort of 'Dolores is now dead, but let's have her go out being a semi-good guy' moment.

And I kind of expected more of a twist at the end, just because I think WW has conditioned me to expect them. Like there was another master Dolores behind all of this, Dolores Prime was never Dolores Prime to begin with, there was a spare Dolores masterminding all of this, or Charlotte (Dolores) was Dolores Prime the entire time. Not that it would have been better if any of that occurred, just that WW likes its twists, as you mentioned.

And I'm not a fan of the post-credits scene -- not really a twist there so much, but it felt very anticlimatic for poor William.

I guess maybe ERW is either done with the show, going to pursue other projects or if HBO throws enough money at her, they will rebuild her because those Delos latex spinning machines are everywhere and find a rationale for her story to continue.

Thing about Dolores seeing beauty, it was Maeve who constantly had these flashbacks about her daughter and living the simple life with her in a field of wheat or whatever. They did that through most of the first two seasons.

Then Dolores has similar views of being out in the field all of a sudden tacked on in this episode.

OK, I like bucolic landscapes as much as the next guy but why is it the robots idea of nirvana? These wide open fields could just as easily be featured for hay fever drug commercials.
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post #3341 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 11:29 AM
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Okay, so she used her mind. But how does that make any sense? Does her mind now have magical powers that can control everything?

It's one thing to control devices run by a computer, seeing as she is a computer. But it's not like she has a magical all-powerful brain that should be able to override a device made to turn her off.

It’s all electronics/computers, she had the same control over the guns when she went to meet Musashi Dolores. It’s not beyond believable that she’s be able to “short it” after being able to control the guns. The device itself was meant to freeze her motor functions, which it did, but it didn’t stop her cognitive side.
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post #3342 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 11:41 AM
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I guess maybe ERW is either done with the show, going to pursue other projects or if HBO throws enough money at her, they will rebuild her because those Delos latex spinning machines are everywhere and find a rationale for her story to continue.
Since the pearl currently inside the Charlotte body was originally a copy of Dolores, she might decide that she'd rather be back in her original form.
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post #3343 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 11:42 AM
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It’s all electronics/computers, she had the same control over the guns when she went to meet Musashi Dolores. It’s not beyond believable that she’s be able to “short it” after being able to control the guns. The device itself was meant to freeze her motor functions, which it did, but it didn’t stop her cognitive side.

Depends on your definition of believable. Guns apparently were aimed with computers, so although a stretch to think she could control them, it's within the realm of 'okay, I'll just go with it' this one time.

But if she could control 'everything' why didn't she simply control Dolores earlier, instead of doing the sword/fist/gun battle sequences, twice? Why didn't she control those drones shooting at her? Or maybe she eventually did? I lost track of what drones were shooting at who...

To me, her shorting the control device felt like a cheap plot trick. But if others find it believable, okay, won't argue about it. We all have different levels of what we find realistic. But I don't even find her powers consistent.

I also have a fear that she'll now be an unstoppable god-like power controlling nearly everything in future seasons (unless the show goes with more inconsistency). Not that I'd mind Maeve the Emperor, just that conflict doesn't work as well when characters are too powerful.
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post #3344 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 11:53 AM
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Depends on your definition of believable. Guns apparently were aimed with computers, so although a stretch to think she could control them, it's within the realm of 'okay, I'll just go with it' this one time.

But if she could control 'everything' why didn't she simply control Dolores earlier, instead of doing the sword/fist/gun battle sequences, twice? Why didn't she control those drones shooting at her?

To me, her shorting the control device felt like a cheap plot trick. But if others find it believable, okay, won't argue about it. We all have different levels of what we find realistic. But I don't even find her powers consistent.

I also have a fear that she'll now be an unstoppable god-like power controlling nearly everything in future seasons (unless the show goes with more inconsistency). Not that I'd mind Maeve the Emperor, just that conflict doesn't work as well when characters are too powerful.

The device itself had to send a command to freeze motor functions, so that would “work” (IMO). As far as hosts go, they set that up season 2 where it showed she couldn’t control ALL hosts, just ones that were on the network/not sentient. Even then she had to focus to stop them fighting her control.

She can’t control humans since they are not networked, so she’ll have to use other devices, but as with any story there is always a “quirk” (Sci-fi and fantasy always have the weakness, even if said character is godlike). She’s not unstoppable, just very difficult to take down. If someone gets a head shot or drains enough fluid, it would be done story for her body.

I do agree that everyone will have their own opinion on what fits and what is believable just sharing my point of view as I saw it. I find some of the discussion interesting since it helps me see how others saw it (better than some of the things I’ve seen where it’s just trash the show/characters).

All bow down to Empress Maeve
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post #3345 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 11:56 AM
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Yeah, or maybe everyone aims like they are blindfolded. Even hosts can't hit hosts, as I mentioned earlier how Yakuza Dolores lets go with two long blasts of machine gun fire and managed to just hit once (in the shoulder, I think).

The hosts have a lot of empty space in them I guess, so they can take a lot of shots so long as the right parts aren't hit. But still... a shot to the head should do the trick, zombie rules.
This is something I don't understand. I know in the Delos parks that the hosts were programmed to die or go down if shot. The only really thing that kills them is destroying the pearl. That means a head shot. The only thing that shooting them in the bodies will do is impair the bodily mechanisms, it shouldn't kill them. And I'm not exactly sure why they still act like they are in pain. Unless Dolores is the only one to turn off those useless programs.
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post #3346 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 12:03 PM
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This is something I don't understand. I know in the Delos parks that the hosts were programmed to die or go down if shot. The only really thing that kills them is destroying the pearl. That means a head shot. The only thing that shooting them in the bodies will do is impair the bodily mechanisms, it shouldn't kill them. And I'm not exactly sure why they still act like they are in pain. Unless Dolores is the only one to turn off those useless programs.

Good point about the pain thing. Sometimes the hosts stand around as if they didn't even notice they were shot. Other times they are holding their sides, keeled over in pain. No clue why some behave like that, doesn't make much sense unless only 'advanced' hosts can disable their pain? Which doesn't really make sense either.

As for gunshots, based on the number of machine guns used in some of these fights, you'd think they would have shot off entire limbs or cut the hosts in half. But again, I guess for some reason it's really difficult to aim and hit anything with these fancy computer controlled rifles.

Hence why it's always best to attack a host using a sword, which, umm.. hmm... afraid I have no clue how that makes any sense either.
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post #3347 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 12:08 PM
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This is something I don't understand. I know in the Delos parks that the hosts were programmed to die or go down if shot. The only really thing that kills them is destroying the pearl. That means a head shot. The only thing that shooting them in the bodies will do is impair the bodily mechanisms, it shouldn't kill them. And I'm not exactly sure why they still act like they are in pain. Unless Dolores is the only one to turn off those useless programs.

I’d have to guess that not all of them have the pain/injury replication settings adjusted. IMO the first scene we saw with Dolores (I think it was sort of proven in the finale) was Dolores “faking” it to get to Caleb.
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It’s all electronics/computers, she had the same control over the guns when she went to meet Musashi Dolores. It’s not beyond believable that she’s be able to “short it” after being able to control the guns. The device itself was meant to freeze her motor functions, which it did, but it didn’t stop her cognitive side.
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Depends on your definition of believable. Guns apparently were aimed with computers, so although a stretch to think she could control them, it's within the realm of 'okay, I'll just go with it' this one time.

But if she could control 'everything' why didn't she simply control Dolores earlier, instead of doing the sword/fist/gun battle sequences, twice? Why didn't she control those drones shooting at her? Or maybe she eventually did? I lost track of what drones were shooting at who...

To me, her shorting the control device felt like a cheap plot trick. But if others find it believable, okay, won't argue about it. We all have different levels of what we find realistic. But I don't even find her powers consistent.

I also have a fear that she'll now be an unstoppable god-like power controlling nearly everything in future seasons (unless the show goes with more inconsistency). Not that I'd mind Maeve the Emperor, just that conflict doesn't work as well when characters are too powerful.

I had forgotten about Maeve's ability to control the guns with computerized aiming control outside the Yakuza hideout when I earlier questioned her ability to affect Serrac's control unit and turn out the lights. So if we assume everything electronic in this world is a "smart" device (hackable wirelessly), then her control over simple one-function devices makes sense. But then as Doe Doe points out, it brings up a ton of inconsistencies throughout the season and makes her either overpowered in this world or a walking contradiction moving forward into season 4 every time she raises her samurai sword against a host or human with high-tech weapons/gadgets.

I'm actually reading a really cool book series right now, the Murderbot Diaries by Martha Wells, in which the main character is a hybrid bot and basically Maeve in terms of fighting skills and the ability to hack and control tech. In one battle, he was able to freeze enemies within their powered armor when given enough time to hack and scan the code. He can also hack and control security and combat drones. One thing he never does, though, is wield an ancient, obsolete weapon.
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post #3349 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 12:17 PM
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Since the pearl currently inside the Charlotte body was originally a copy of Dolores, she might decide that she'd rather be back in her original form.
I wouldn't think so, as Charlotte seems to be still working at (or controlling) Delos, so there would be no advantage to using a Dolores body.

But I think there may still be two other Dolores pearls out there?

Yakuza Dolores may still exist (not sure what they did with the body). Or what about Lawrence? Pretty sure he's still roaming about somewhere. So if they want to bring her back, there is a way that makes sense.
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post #3350 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 12:23 PM
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The more I think about the finale, the more frustrated with it I am. It was a 90 minute episode that felt like 4 hours. I checked the time repeatedly throughout.

Lots of inexplicable plot choices that have already been discussed above. The police copter taking Caleb to Incite was a big eye roller. Serac plugging Dolores into Rehoboam seemed like the most contrived and stupid thing that character could possibly do. Honestly, what was he expecting would happen? And how does the big super brain not have any firewalls to prevent Dolores from infecting it?

Now we're supposed to believe that Dolores and Charlotte have switched - Dolores really wants to save humanity and Charlotte wants to destroy it? That comes out of the blue and contradicts everything both characters have done this entire season. And for what purpose? It's a plot twist just to have a twist, because the Nolans love their twists. "We're going to go the whole season telling the audience one thing, and then at the last minute tell them the opposite. We're geniuses!"

In general, I do feel that this season was a rebound from Season 2. However, at the end of the day, it suffers the same crippling flaw that has burdened this show all along. The whole thing is just an excuse for the Nolans to play games with the audience to make themselves feel like they're the smartest kids in the room.
Yeah, as my friends call it - I'm pretty glad "Worstworld" isn't coming back till 2022 - I was really holding out hope that they were going to bring everything together so that it made sense in the nearly 90 minutes runtime. Instead it was just more "uh" and "what" - "did that just happen"

I think AV Club review (though VERY generous with the B- rating .... this felt like a C- or D+ episode) sums it up well: https://tv.avclub.com/westworld-offe...ure-1843232670

I think I just became a Westworld hater

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post #3351 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 12:25 PM
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I wouldn't think so, as Charlotte seems to be still working at (or controlling) Delos, so there would be no advantage to using a Dolores body.
Let's not pretend this show doesn't contradict itself or make illogical plot twists all the time.
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post #3352 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 12:30 PM
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Josh's earlier post expresses my feelings to a tee so I won't wade in to far. I'm really not going to miss it during the break.

If someone made this screenplay into a short book, I don't think anyone would bother to finish it. Without the actors, effects, and splosions, it's about as corn ball as it gets.
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post #3353 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 12:34 PM
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Let's not pretend this show doesn't contradict itself or make illogical plot twists all the time.
True, and it's not out of the realm of possibility that we see a new Dolores body using Hale's pearl. Just that there are much easier ways to bring her back that makes more sense.

There is a working Dolores inside Lawrence wandering about, probably more logical to use that one. Kind of curious how Lawrence/Dolores will fit into future seasons now.
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post #3354 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 12:34 PM
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Good point about the pain thing. Sometimes the hosts stand around as if they didn't even notice they were shot. Other times they are holding their sides, keeled over in pain. No clue why some behave like that, doesn't make much sense unless only 'advanced' hosts can disable their pain? Which doesn't really make sense either.

As for gunshots, based on the number of machine guns used in some of these fights, you'd think they would have shot off entire limbs or cut the hosts in half. But again, I guess for some reason it's really difficult to aim and hit anything with these fancy computer controlled rifles.

Hence why it's always best to attack a host using a sword, which, umm.. hmm... afraid I have no clue how that makes any sense either.


Duh, because dragging a sword behind you make sparks, and sparks are awesome.
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post #3355 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 12:47 PM
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mm.. hmm... afraid I have no clue how that makes any sense either.
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Duh, because dragging a sword behind you make sparks, and sparks are awesome.
Obviously, the sidewalk was made of flint, silly.
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post #3356 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
...
To me, her shorting the control device felt like a cheap plot trick. But if others find it believable, okay, won't argue about it. We all have different levels of what we find realistic. But I don't even find her powers consistent.
I find it plausible. The first time Serac stopped Maeve in her tracks it would have come as a surprise but once aware of the device it makes sense that she would quietly try and figure out how to manipulate it for herself. Maeve would have to know that she would have only one opportunity to take control of the device and then fake it until she was faced with a life or death situation.
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post #3357 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
Dubai
Isn't the city of Dubai in the UAE?

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post #3358 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 12:55 PM
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There's no bigger fan of 'Westworld' than me. But it has steadily gone downhill since the first season, have to admit. This finale was just, well... kinda' bad. For all the reasons others have stated. I don't have any new complaints to bring to the table, other than BeastMode™ had a really poorly done death scene. He needs to re-negotiate his contract!

Lisa gave me little joy this season.
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post #3359 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 12:55 PM
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What a heck of a ride that finale was. So much going on. I felt like they actually wrapped up a lot and explained a lot compared to past finale's/seasons. A lot to take in but one thing is for sure, this show is incredible and the writers deserve a ton of credit. Plus I just love watching the scenery, the acting, etc. Soooo well done. MIB is a highlight of the show for me.
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post #3360 of 3457 Old 05-04-2020, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
She had control inside the simulation of things she wouldn't in the real world, but I don't recall her being able to override her control unit or a reason given for it.

The lights thing I guess I can overlook, maybe she's using her Alexa powers there. I just don't know why she can break Serac's control unit all of a sudden.
She was able to override the electronic locks.

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