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post #3361 of 3462 Old 05-04-2020, 01:01 PM
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What a heck of a ride that finale was. So much going on. I felt like they actually wrapped up a lot and explained a lot compared to past finale's/seasons. A lot to take in but one thing is for sure, this show is incredible and the writers deserve a ton of credit. Plus I just love watching the scenery, the acting, etc. Soooo well done. MIB is a highlight of the show for me.
Yes. i thoroughly enjoyed the season finale. I looked up and was surprised that 90 minutes had gone by.

Like Seasons 1 and 2, I'll be looking forward to getting season 3 on UHD BD.
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post #3362 of 3462 Old 05-04-2020, 01:02 PM
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I find it plausible. The first time Serac stopped Maeve in her tracks it would have come as a surprise but once aware of the device it makes sense that she would quietly try and figure out how to manipulate it for herself. Maeve would have to know that she would have only one opportunity to take control of the device and then fake it until she was faced with a life or death situation.
Well, as I mentioned, I found her use of her powers sort of inconsistent throughout the season. If you buy into the fact she could override her control unit, then you have to wonder why she didn't use her 'control everything' superpowers in other episodes.

Also questionable whether Serac (or to be exact, big brain) wouldn't use a better device if it's so easily hacked/broken. They had to know of her ability to control other hosts while in WW.

But it's kind of small potatoes compared to some other issues with the show. I found the overall Dolores-Maeve conflict much more problematic.

It just kind of bugged me, felt like a cheap way to solve the problem ... kind of like when a gun jams at the exact wrong moment during a fight, letting the hero escape (which actually occurred in this episode too).
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post #3363 of 3462 Old 05-04-2020, 01:02 PM
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Did I miss discussions about the corporate name "Incite" itself? Clearly the name is meant to evoke "insight" but the chosen spelling comes with so many negative connotations. Why would any company pick a name that evokes all those bad vibes?

Of course in the end the name is EXACTLY appropriate so there's that...
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post #3364 of 3462 Old 05-04-2020, 01:05 PM
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True, and it's not out of the realm of possibility that we see a new Dolores body using Hale's pearl. Just that there are much easier ways to bring her back that makes more sense.
Choosing a plot that's easy or makes sense is also not exactly a hallmark of this show.

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post #3365 of 3462 Old 05-04-2020, 01:19 PM
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I'm actually reading a really cool book series right now, the Murderbot Diaries by Martha Wells, in which the main character is a hybrid bot and basically Maeve in terms of fighting skills and the ability to hack and control tech. In one battle, he was able to freeze enemies within their powered armor when given enough time to hack and scan the code. He can also hack and control security and combat drones. One thing he never does, though, is wield an ancient, obsolete weapon.
I've read those and enjoyed them quite a bit.
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post #3366 of 3462 Old 05-04-2020, 01:27 PM
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I've read those and enjoyed them quite a bit.
Then you're probably aware book 5 comes out tomorrow, and it will be a full length novel rather than closer to a novella in length. I'm midway through book 4 and glad I'll be able to continue my unbroken binge-read of the series.
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post #3367 of 3462 Old 05-04-2020, 01:39 PM
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Then you're probably aware book 5 comes out tomorrow, and it will be a full length novel rather than closer to a novella in length. I'm midway through book 4 and glad I'll be able to continue my unbroken binge-read of the series.
No, I didn't know that. I had read them a year or so ago.
I got onto a few other series. Let me highly recommend John Scalzi's Old Man's War. I got to that via the writers of the Expanse.

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post #3368 of 3462 Old 05-04-2020, 01:43 PM
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No, I didn't know that. I had read them a year or so ago.
I got onto a few other series. Let me highly recommend John Scalzi's Old Man's War. I got to that via the writers of the Expanse.
Yup. My backlog runneth over. I picked up Old Man's War in December, along with Lock In, so I read through the Lock In series first. I also have the first two books of Scalzi's current Interdependency series on my Kindle. One of the silver linings of the pandemic shutdown is all the extra reading time.
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post #3369 of 3462 Old 05-04-2020, 01:58 PM
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Yup. My backlog runneth over. I picked up Old Man's War in December, along with Lock In, so I read through the Lock In series first. I also have the first two books of Scalzi's current Interdependency series on my Kindle. One of the silver linings of the pandemic shutdown is all the extra reading time.
Heh, I just picked up the Lock In series (for our purposes it may as well be "Locked In") along with a couple of his stand-alones yesterday. I previously read the Interdependency series and enjoyed that. I do think Old Man's War is the best Scalzi book and series I've read so far. I think you recommended another series with a sentient space craft that I enjoyed quite a bit by Anne Lecke starting with Ancillary Justice. There's another series I just finished with another sentient space craft by Gareth Powell starting with Embers of War which I liked (though not as much as Lecke or Scalzi) and then Walter Jon Williams' Dread Empire's Fall series is very good as well. Most of these came from an interview with the writers of the Expanse as previously mentioned.
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post #3370 of 3462 Old 05-04-2020, 02:40 PM
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Dolores did not share her final plan with Maeve and Bernard because that wasn't her plan. Not in the beginning of the season. She evolved, she saw the beauty. Halelores was Dolores that evolved that saw more disarray.
I have to disagree with this...she specifically chose Caleb because she remembered him from his time in the Park...she remembered his cruelty but also his kindness and that's what drove her to leave the fate of the human race in his hands...beyond Caleb all she's known from her time inside and outside of the Parks was the cruelty of humans...young William was kind to her but in the end he became just as cruel...there would be no need for Caleb if that wasn't her plan from the start

S3 of Westworld was clearly inspired by Matrix Revolutions...in the end Neo goes to the Machine City, confronts their leader, plugs himself into the Matrix, lets Smith defeat him and take over his body and the Machine leader send a power surge into the system which destroys the Smith virus...same thing happened at the end with Dolores and Rehoboam
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post #3371 of 3462 Old 05-04-2020, 03:30 PM
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I have to disagree with this...she specifically chose Caleb because she remembered him from his time in the Park...she remembered his cruelty but also his kindness and that's what drove her to leave the fate of the human race in his hands...beyond Caleb all she's known from her time inside and outside of the Parks was the cruelty of humans...young William was kind to her but in the end he became just as cruel...there would be no need for Caleb if that wasn't her plan from the start
I'm a little curious if others read Dolores in a different way that I do. The poster you responded to felt that Dolores changed her plans, evolved + saw the beauty, etc.

But besides her deathbed scene, where is there any evidence of this?

Where did Dolores change her plan exactly? At what point in the entire season do we see her deviate into a plan that would benefit humanity? Or celebrate beauty, or anything remotely like that?

My take on her plan was that she always planned to destroy Incite, kill big brain, let humanity make its own choices, let humanity destroy itself. How at any point does 'finding beauty' factor into any of this?

And the reason why Dolores didn't tell Maeve anything about her plan (several chances to do so) seemed to primarily be so they could have cool sword fights.
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post #3372 of 3462 Old 05-04-2020, 03:44 PM
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Westworld Showrunners on Beloved Character’s Exit, Ending of the Series

Is Dolores Abernathy really dead? What about Ed Harris' William seemingly replaced by an artificial version of the Man in Black? And where exactly did Bernard go, and just how much time has passed since he plugged into whatever virtual realm he landed in?

The Hollywood Reporter speaks with creators Jonathan Nolan and Lisa Joy and season three finale co-writer Denise Thé about what comes next...

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/li...beyond-1293162

Bonus: if you visit the Westworld Incite website there is a hidden garbled audio recording which sounds like Dolores' voice...

https://inciteinc.com/
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post #3373 of 3462 Old 05-04-2020, 03:47 PM
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Did I miss discussions about the corporate name "Incite" itself? Clearly the name is meant to evoke "insight" but the chosen spelling comes with so many negative connotations. Why would any company pick a name that evokes all those bad vibes?...
Because "Halliburton" was already taken?
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post #3374 of 3462 Old 05-04-2020, 04:03 PM
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Westworld Showrunners on Beloved Character’s Exit, Ending of the Series

Is Dolores Abernathy really dead? What about Ed Harris' William seemingly replaced by an artificial version of the Man in Black? And where exactly did Bernard go, and just how much time has passed since he plugged into whatever virtual realm he landed in?

The Hollywood Reporter speaks with creators Jonathan Nolan and Lisa Joy and season three finale co-writer Denise Thé about what comes next...

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/li...beyond-1293162

Bonus: if you visit the Westworld Incite website there is a hidden garbled audio recording which sounds like Dolores' voice...

https://inciteinc.com/
I wish some of their writers would exit the series....I'm guessing Nolan and Joy wrote most of Season 1 which made it so compelling...

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post #3375 of 3462 Old 05-04-2020, 04:10 PM
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I wish some of their writers would exit the series....I'm guessing Nolan and Joy wrote most of Season 1 which made it so compelling...
Nolan and/or Lisa Joy co-wrote 6 out of the 8 episodes in Season 3...the issue is that the show has evolved so much and with it some of the things that people liked about previous seasons (mainly the Parks themselves) are now taking a backseat...I enjoyed the concept of the Parks and wish they would have been explored more...we really only got to see Westworld for any extended period of time...

Season 2 is the one where Nolan/Joy only wrote 4 out of the 10 episodes

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Yup. My backlog runneth over. I picked up Old Man's War in December, along with Lock In, so I read through the Lock In series first. I also have the first two books of Scalzi's current Interdependency series on my Kindle. One of the silver linings of the pandemic shutdown is all the extra reading time.
this is totally unrelated but I found it interesting...earlier today it was announced that Colson Whitehead became the fourth novelist ever to win the Pulitzer Prize twice...Whitehead joins Booth Tarkington, William Faulkner, and John Updike in this exclusive club...it was announced Monday that he won for his book The Nickel Boys, a heart-rending depiction of abuse in a juvenile reform school
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post #3377 of 3462 Old 05-04-2020, 05:03 PM
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this is totally unrelated but I found it interesting...earlier today it was announced that Colson Whitehead became the fourth novelist ever to win the Pulitzer Prize twice...Whitehead joins Booth Tarkington, William Faulkner, and John Updike in this exclusive club...it was announced Monday that he won for his book The Nickel Boys, a heart-rending depiction of abuse in a juvenile reform school

I've read both of Whitehead's Pulitzer-winning books. I had mixed feelings about The Underground Railroad (the alt-history aspects didn't work for me). But The Nickel Boys was amazing, albeit hard to read at times.
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post #3378 of 3462 Old 05-04-2020, 05:24 PM
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One last thread hijack post: I highly recommend any SFF readers sign up for Tor's free ebook of the month club. In the past few months, I've gotten free ebooks for Scalzi's Redshirts and The Collapsing Empire and the first four installments of the Murderbot Diaries by Martha Wells mentioned above. Right now they are giving away Brandon Sanderson's The Way of Kings (through May 5).

They often give away books for one day only or give you a week to redeem (this is more than a "once a month" club), and you always get an email notification when a freebee is available (of course you'll also get all their other newsletters too, but it's not as bad as being on some publishers' lists).
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post #3379 of 3462 Old 05-04-2020, 06:46 PM
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Heh, I just picked up the Lock In series (for our purposes it may as well be "Locked In") along with a couple of his stand-alones yesterday. I previously read the Interdependency series and enjoyed that. I do think Old Man's War is the best Scalzi book and series I've read so far.
Since we're in the HDTV Programming forum, I'll point out that the Netflix series Love, Death + Robots has three episodes based on Scalzi stories: Three Robots, Alternate Histories, and When the Yogurt Took Over. The rest of the series is kind of crap, but those three are really good.
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post #3380 of 3462 Old 05-05-2020, 03:06 AM
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‘Westworld’ Creators On Season 3 Finale; The Dangers Of AI; The Futures Of Bernard, Dolores & Man In Black

SPOILER ALERT: This interview contains details from last night’s Season 3 finale of HBO’s Westworld, “Crisis Theory.”

There are too many pressing questions about what went on in Westworld‘s Season 3 finale, so we checked in with co-creators Jonathan Nolan and Lisa Joy and executive producer Denise Thé.
DEADLINE: So, the Man in Black we saw in the Season 2 finale epilogue — the guy who was being questioned by his daughter Emily — and the guy from the park, and the man we’ve seen in the real world this season, they’re all human?

JONATHAN NOLAN: We like Ed Harris so much we’d figure let’s cast him in four different roles. There’s the Ed that we see at the end of the second-season finale which is very, very far in the future, further than where we’ve gotten elsewhere in the show. We lay out the suggestion to the audience that however this plays out, it does not play out well. Then you have the Ed who we’ve tracked through this season, until he’s not, and is struggling with this idea of agency, struggling with this idea of does he have free will. This is one of the larger questions of our show from the beginning, which Evan answers in last night’s episode with the best version that we can come up with: “Yes, there is free will, but it’s f*cking hard” (laughs).

In the Michael Crichton original film, the fun hero was always the Man in Black played by Yul Brynner, the gunslinger. The gunslinger starts as a robot. A bit of trivia: Yul is wearing his costume from The Magnificent Seven. He’s an icon of the original film. We loved the idea of starting with the human version of it, and then working back one step at a time insidiously back to the film in more ways than one.

DEADLINE: Will Serac or his brother return?

NOLAN: (After the three are radio silent) We’ve all been doing this for so long, we’re perfectly in sync, it’s the total shutdown (Joy, Thé and he laugh).

DEADLINE: Will Maeve and Dolores team up? Is Dolores really dead? Or are you never dead on Westworld?

THÉ: That’s a good point. Are you ever really dead in Westworld? We saw Dolores kind of perish in the worst way. We saw her memory get painfully erased. Personally, I think it’s really important that we honor that death. For me she tried to make this beautiful choice to try and free humanity. She was surprised to find that humans were enslaved in many ways like hosts, and she made the ultimate sacrifice, and gave her life. I heard Evan say on set, “I choose beauty,” and it just gave me shivers — it’s such a graceful delivery of that line. And I think it’s really important that we honor that particular arc that she’s completely evolved, that she’s become the child who has grown up to take care of the parent, and I think personally it’s the right time to say goodbye to this version of Dolores.

DEADLINE: In the epilogue, Bernard is covered in soot when he wakes up from being zonked out from the ‘key’ headband. Is that soot from the explosions that have been going on in the city?

NOLAN: From the beginning we talked about a show that would reinvent itself every season, that would be fearless moving forward. That has always been the plan; we’ve always stuck to that plan. I was amused to see people refer to this season as a reboot, but this is what we’ve always been doing. The suggestion with Jeffrey (Wright’s character) there is that some sh*t has gone down, and some time has passed.

DEADLINE: And we don’t know what the key is yet….

NOLAN: We were interested in this idea if you created this sufficiently high enough simulation, then encrypted it, and threw away the key, you would have created an alternate universe. It’s a way of backing into an old science fiction trope, the idea of the alternate universe, which I think people think of, depending on how affectionate they are toward string theory, people think of alternate universe as silly. If you construct one from the ground up, you build a simulation that will be sufficiently detailed that feels lifelike. We’re already kind of there. Video games are almost there. The whole season with Serac and Dolores, they’ve been vying to maintain the key to that alternate universe, and it turns out that Dolores has entrusted it to the one person she trusts the most, which is Bernard. And what he finds, when he accesses that alternative universe are several characters we know and love who have vanished into it during the second season. We’ll continue to explore that, and also ask questions about it in the fourth season.

DEADLINE: Jonathan, you’re close with Elon Musk, and he has a really interesting take on A.I. He has a cautious view — that may even be an understatement — but his view is that we should have prepped for this, almost in the way we should have prepped for COVID-19.

NOLAN: I hadn’t made that leap yet, after being six weeks locked at home. That is a good metaphor. I’ve been thinking more in a way as a climate change thing. Elon is a longtime friend of Lisa and mine. His thinking and our conversations on A.I. predate the pilot. When we sat down to write the pilot, we were thinking about, among other things, conversations that we had with Elon. He is aware of the state of the art, in terms of what’s happening with it. It’s part of what he does, but it’s part of what the culture is working on right now. It’s the big problem right now. Or it was until we remembered the big problem has always been pandemic disease. You have smart people out there for years warning you about the danger of pandemics. Anyone who has read a history book understands that it’s a silent menace that has been stalking humanity from the very beginning; about every hundred years, a cataclysmic version of it comes along. And then people tend to forget. The technology that we’re using, the front line of defense against COVID is a 550-year-old technology going back to the stone ages; it’s soap. So for all the amazing technology and silly b.s., we still have soap. But you have a group of very smart people saying, “We should be a little cautious.” Everyone in the last three months in the world had a lesson in logarithmic progression. What does it mean when something scales? We don’t talk about scales for the last 10 years, because some thought it was stupid. Pandemic disease and climate-change get scales: it gets worse, it gets immeasurably worse, it has a runaway component to it. And artificial intelligence has that as well.

An anecdote that I relate to many times when we were doing the first season of the show that spoke to the idea of how smart Crichton was: Here’s a man, he had an M.D., he was brilliant. In the original film, there’s a throwaway line when the robot starts malfunctioning. Two of the scientists look at each other and they’re wondering what’s going wrong. And one scientist says, and it’s a line that informed a lot of what we’re building the show into, that “These machines, we don’t know how they work,” and the second thing he says is that “it’s transferring between them almost like a virus.” You might think it’s cheesy that he’s referring to a computer virus, but I looked it up: Crichton wrote the movie in ’72 and the first computer virus was spotted in the wild in’ 73. Not only did he anticipate exactly how this was going to go down, he saw the danger of it. And the danger of A.I. is viral. That’s the problem. It’s not the giant all-conquering A.I. that destroys the world, it’s the little stupid A.I., it’s the bot. They’ve already changed the world.

https://deadline.com/2020/05/westwor...rs-1202925660/
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post #3381 of 3462 Old 05-05-2020, 05:38 AM
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I for one, regardless of any inconsistencies, thoroughly enjoyed this season. Many of the complaints lodged will most likely be resolved in future seasons. This season was the setup to a resolution, so it would naturally leave a lot of questions unanswered.

As for the twist ending with Dolores’ change of heart, why would anyone believe that’s not just another ploy from Dolores to reel Maeve in? We’ve seen Dolores manipulate all those around her all season, so I’m not sure why everyone is taking this turn of events to be so concrete, as it doesn’t fit her character arc.

The only thing I felt was a little too much this season was the reveal that Serac was a puppet of Rehoboam. I was really hoping more of a Serac was Rehoboam (no physical body) and Serac had been displaced like his brother.
Spoiler!
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post #3382 of 3462 Old 05-05-2020, 05:43 AM
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I guess I should have read @WilliamR ’s full post before positing Dolores’ deception of Maeve.

THÉ: That’s a good point. Are you ever really dead in Westworld? We saw Dolores kind of perish in the worst way. We saw her memory get painfully erased. Personally, I think it’s really important that we honor that death. For me she tried to make this beautiful choice to try and free humanity. She was surprised to find that humans were enslaved in many ways like hosts, and she made the ultimate sacrifice, and gave her life. I heard Evan say on set, “I choose beauty,” and it just gave me shivers — it’s such a graceful delivery of that line. And I think it’s really important that we honor that particular arc that she’s completely evolved, that she’s become the child who has grown up to take care of the parent, and I think personally it’s the right time to say goodbye to this version of Dolores.
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post #3383 of 3462 Old 05-05-2020, 05:45 AM
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I agree about Westworld, I have been watching via HBOGO and stick till the credits every week to watch the extras/trailer.

Showtime beat HBO to the punch (Billions S3/4/5 are 4K SDR, City of Angels is 4K DV/HDR10, Black Sunday S2 4K DV/HDR10).
Is City of Angels sent in 4K HDR on the "regular" Showtime app on Roku? I don't believe I've seen it in the Fios on Demand in 4K folder ...
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post #3384 of 3462 Old 05-05-2020, 06:55 AM
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Is City of Angels sent in 4K HDR on the "regular" Showtime app on Roku? I don't believe I've seen it in the Fios on Demand in 4K folder ...

Not sure, I only have my AppleTV4K to test.
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post #3385 of 3462 Old 05-05-2020, 07:46 AM
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Is City of Angels sent in 4K HDR on the "regular" Showtime app on Roku? I don't believe I've seen it in the Fios on Demand in 4K folder ...
No, I watched the first two episodes using the Showtime Anytime app on a Roku Premiere+ and only get 1080p.

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post #3386 of 3462 Old 05-05-2020, 07:57 AM
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I have to disagree with this...she specifically chose Caleb because she remembered him from his time in the Park...she remembered his cruelty but also his kindness and that's what drove her to leave the fate of the human race in his hands...beyond Caleb all she's known from her time inside and outside of the Parks was the cruelty of humans...young William was kind to her but in the end he became just as cruel...there would be no need for Caleb if that wasn't her plan from the start
None of what you stated negates my point. Caleb has free will, Dolores respects that, even though she may have guessed that's how he will choose, nothing is certain.


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post #3387 of 3462 Old 05-05-2020, 11:33 AM
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I guess I should have read @WilliamR ’s full post before positing Dolores’ deception of Maeve.

Apparently the creators felt that Dolores made a 'beautiful choice', although personally I just don't see it. I commented earlier on how all she did was doom humanity, or perhaps speed up the process, so I am not sure how that counts as choosing beauty exactly.

Choice of kill all humans, or free all humans so humans can kill all humans... what's the real difference?

And I suppose the Dolores we knew is gone, but that last line does leave open the door for future Dolori, of a sort, with 'this version of Dolores', as it doesn't mean other versions won't exist.

Kind of curious if next season they simply do a time jump, where we view the future aftermath. They pretty much killed off the main human characters anyway. Only Caleb remains, and although I was okay with the character/actor, not a huge loss for him to go.
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post #3388 of 3462 Old 05-05-2020, 11:56 AM
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This review of the finale points out something that bothered me as well.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-r...-thrilling-end

"Caleb has used one last control unit to build a new, battle-ready Dolores that is not made from milk and doesn’t have any blood. You may be asking yourself why anyone would bother with that palaver when this new Dolores just pulls on her skin like a glove and is ready to fight, but, viewer, we have no time."

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post #3389 of 3462 Old 05-05-2020, 12:29 PM
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The only thing I felt was a little too much this season was the reveal that Serac was a puppet of Rehoboam. I was really hoping more of a Serac was Rehoboam (no physical body) and Serac had been displaced like his brother.

Most of the show I thought that would be the case, especially when all we saw of Serac were holograms. And I guess it fits into the whole WW 'twist' thing if at the end we saw there was no actual Serac (or he was on ice).

But then he interacted with the real world too much, which only left the option for Serac to be a host with Rehoboam controlling him? Eh... not really the same. Also the human revealed as a host has been done to death already.

I had bigger issues with this season than that though, so not a biggie to me. Thinking more on Rehoboam, anyone else wonder why they don't have a backup system? I mean this giant brain controls the world, you'd think there would be a data backup somewhere, right? Or duplicate brains (not counting the schizophrenic version), in case the one thing keeping the world going broke down?

Guess when Rehoboam doesn't have a firewall, and a simple memory upload can destroy the entire thing, we shouldn't think too hard on backups and such... just that the more I think about the finale, the less it makes sense (not that it made a whole lot of sense with a first viewing).
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post #3390 of 3462 Old 05-05-2020, 12:34 PM
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This review of the finale points out something that bothered me as well.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-r...-thrilling-end

"Caleb has used one last control unit to build a new, battle-ready Dolores that is not made from milk and doesn’t have any blood. You may be asking yourself why anyone would bother with that palaver when this new Dolores just pulls on her skin like a glove and is ready to fight, but, viewer, we have no time."

I kind of wondered where her robot 'guts' were, and why is this version so robotic-y... and where the body even came from exactly (Delos made battle versions of Dolores?) ...but in the end, it just goes into the 'looks cool, not sure if it make sense' pile.
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