Watchmen series on HBO - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 366 Old 12-02-2019, 09:42 AM
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You should just be able to highlight the relevant text and click the spoiler button (the big red S). If you're typing it out manually, make sure the "/" is in front of the 2nd spoiler tag inside the brackets.
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post #302 of 366 Old 12-02-2019, 09:45 AM
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I thought the Blake stuff was quite funny. The Angela stuff was just set up and the reveal was not any kind of surprise for me.

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post #303 of 366 Old 12-02-2019, 10:20 AM
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It seems The Mandalorian enjoys Watchmen: https://twitter.com/PedroPascal1/sta...81421895618560 (spoilers for The Mandalorian if you click on the link and see replies)
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The only way I know how to describe Watchmen is that it feels better than I even deserve it to be.
These are my two appointment shows right now. I try to watch them ASAP and am loving every minute of both.
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post #304 of 366 Old 12-02-2019, 10:58 AM
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Did it help some of you to watch the movie 1st? Is the series completely different or a similar story?

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post #305 of 366 Old 12-02-2019, 11:08 AM
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Did it help some of you to watch the movie 1st? Is the series completely different or a similar story?


I haven’t seen the movie in years. I’m sure I’ll miss some context/Easter eggs, but it’s not a “need”, thus far for the story they are telling (IMO). Knowing the movie/comic helps fills in some of the backstory. I’m enjoying the show for the character study that is there so I haven’t been disappointed.
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post #306 of 366 Old 12-02-2019, 11:13 AM
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Did it help some of you to watch the movie 1st? Is the series completely different or a similar story?
There is major discussion on this topic earlier in the thread. The bottom line is that the series is a sequel to the graphic novel, not the movie. For those who haven't read the graphic novel, the movie helps familiarize with the characters but there is a major plot difference and the videos that have been posted to the thread really help with the finer points of what you are missing.
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post #307 of 366 Old 12-02-2019, 11:49 AM
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I liked Angela's story this week, but the the Ozymandias sidebar was perhaps the goofiest and dumbest yet.

Biggest WTF moment in the episode was the elephant.

I'm assuming that Ozymandias is Trieu's father, and the point of her fancy clock thing is to rescue him from his prison.

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post #308 of 366 Old 12-02-2019, 11:53 AM
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I liked Angela's story this week, but the the Ozymandias sidebar was perhaps the goofiest and dumbest yet.

Biggest WTF moment in the episode was the elephant.

I'm assuming that Ozymandias is Trieu's father, and the point of her fancy clock thing is to rescue him from his prison.
Well, elephants supposedly never forget. I had forgot about the Ozy subplot which basically seems like a drawn out allegedly humorous sideplot. I figure at some point, there will actually be some importance to this sideplot which has been been drawn out basically to give Jeremy Irons a paycheck.

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post #309 of 366 Old 12-02-2019, 02:01 PM
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Polar bear in Lost, elephant in Watchmen. Lindelof likes his animals. Isn’t big blue all powerful? Is the 7th Calvary even a threat to him? Can’t he just snap his fingers and Thanos the whole lot of ‘em?

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post #310 of 366 Old 12-02-2019, 02:21 PM
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Meh .... for me the show is turning from mediocre to flat out stupid. The Angela plot was okay, I suppose, although I have a feeling the big 'reveal' portends future dumbness. I hope Lindelof isn't going for a Jesus allegory for its eventual payoff.

The Laurie scenes didn't work for me .... no clue why she felt a need to blurt out her discoveries to Mrs. Crawford and just sit there while she kept clicking some device at her. The trap door thing might work in old comic books or cartoons (and tends to be stupid even then) but doesn't exactly seem logical in the real world. The villain blurting out his plans thing also tends to be a bad comic book trope, which Moore kind of played with in the comic by having Veidt (who may be considered a villain or hero, depending on how you look at it) announce his plans after the event already occurred -- while Keene here just does the standard stupid bad guy speech.

And as for Veidt, the courtroom and piggies. Umm, not sure what is left to say at this point. Lindelof must have decided that the book canon thing was somewhat flexible, as this isn't Veidt from the comics. Veidt wasn't exactly known for his quirky comic behavior and fart jokes. I'm guessing none of the Veidt scenes can be real ... can they? A dream of some sort, or altered memories, or something similar. Or as things are going, dreams of an elephant who thinks he's Veidt, which as moronic as it sounds, actually makes more sense than if anything Veidt is experiencing is real.
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post #311 of 366 Old 12-02-2019, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Waboman View Post
Polar bear in Lost, elephant in Watchmen. Lindelof likes his animals. Isn’t big blue all powerful? Is the 7th Calvary even a threat to him? Can’t he just snap his fingers and Thanos the whole lot of ‘em?
Yeah, you'd think.

Manhattan being undone by some idiots in Rorschach masks and a flashlight doesn't make much sense. I just hope Lindelof doesn't go full-on religious allegory at the end -- sacrificing a God to save mankind.

Quoting from Moore for non-comic/movie people:

I'm disappointed in you, Adrian. I'm very disappointed. Reassembling myself was the first trick I learned. It didn't kill Osterman. Did you really think it would kill me? I have walked across the surface of the sun. I have witnessed events so tiny and so fast, they could hardly be said to have occurred at all. But you, Adrian, you're just a man. The world's smartest man poses no more threat to me than does its smartest termite.


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post #312 of 366 Old 12-02-2019, 02:30 PM
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The Laurie scenes didn't work for me .... no clue why she felt a need to blurt out her discoveries to Mrs. Crawford and just sit there while she kept clicking some device at her. The trap door thing might work in old comic books or cartoons (and tends to be stupid even then) but doesn't exactly seem logical in the real world. The villain blurting out his plans thing also tends to be a bad comic book trope,
Laurie specifically says how ridiculous both of these are. They were obviously going for a meta joke.
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post #313 of 366 Old 12-02-2019, 02:38 PM
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Laurie specifically says how ridiculous both of these are. They were obviously going for a meta joke.
Yeah, I know. But it didn't work for me, instead it seemed moronic. If the show was meant as a comedy, then those sorts of meta moments can work, but this isn't a comedy -- or at least it shouldn't be.
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post #314 of 366 Old 12-02-2019, 05:15 PM
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I watched episodes 1-7, Bravo
What a tour de force...its very insightful & allegorical...
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post #315 of 366 Old 12-02-2019, 10:32 PM
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This show is completely insane.

I'm loving every minute of it.


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post #316 of 366 Old 12-03-2019, 09:39 AM
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Trying to .. make it ... to the end ... of the season... Before I give up on this. Getting harder each week.
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post #317 of 366 Old 12-03-2019, 11:29 AM
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A hypnotizing flashlight, really? I don't know how folks can just let that pass and not think it's completely idiotic.
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post #318 of 366 Old 12-03-2019, 11:43 AM
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I guess I don't understand how a hypnotizing flashlight is supposedly dumber than a man stepping into a made-up "intrinsic field" chamber and turning into an omnipotent god who walks around wagging his bright blue penis at everyone.

This is a superhero story that takes place in a fantasy universe. There's going to be a little pseudoscience nonsense in it. That's the nature of the genre.
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post #319 of 366 Old 12-03-2019, 11:43 AM
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I'm assuming that Ozymandias is Trieu's father, and the point of her fancy clock thing is to rescue him from his prison.
The father idea makes a lot of sense, explains her intelligence, wealth and the fact she has a big statue of Veidt. Although rather than her goal being rescuing him from a wacko prison, it'd probably make more sense for the weird Veidt scenes to be altered past memories/hallucinations/whatever from a Nostalgia-induced cloning/resurrection -- so the events didn't exactly transpire as presented.

Only problem is we haven't seen who her father clone is (or at least I don't recall any logical candidates). And I don't think even they go full on wackiness and introduce Veidt the elephant.

As for the clock... no idea. Her previous scene when purchasing the house and her obsession with time reminded me an awful lot of Whiterose from Mr. Robot. A multi-verse/time thingy machine? *shrugs* With this show it could go a zillion ways.

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post #320 of 366 Old 12-03-2019, 11:58 AM
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I guess I don't understand how a hypnotizing flashlight is supposedly dumber than a man stepping into a made-up "intrinsic field" chamber and turning into an omnipotent god who walks around wagging his bright blue penis at everyone.

This is a superhero story that takes place in a fantasy universe. There's going to be a little pseudoscience nonsense in it. That's the nature of the genre.

After I posted that, I realized I probably should have explained my thinking a bit better. I wouldn't even go with the intrinsic field chamber as a contrasting example, but the giant squid/teleportation. That could be considered even sillier... one example where the movie may have improved on the comic.

But there is kind of a limit on how far my suspension of disbelief can go. Intrinsic field generator... okay, sounds science-y, at least. Giant squids... works better in the comic medium than film/tv. Pulp-era hypnotizing flashlight/crowd mesmerizing movie theater with no pseudoscience to even explain it... that goes a little too far for me. At the least they should offer up an explanation on how such a thing exists, even if it's pseudoscience -- a pamphlet lying around on mesmerism doesn't really count.

And besides that, it's the sort of device that breaks the logical coherence to the story. As if anyone possesses a hypnotizing device like that, they could basically rule the world. Why couldn't the grandfather just shine his flashlight at Angela when they first met, tell her to take a pill, way back several episodes ago? Why all the shenanigans over half the season? Or why not shine it on Keene, tell him to change his plans? Or... well, anything at all really? It's too powerful a device, it breaks the plot.

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post #321 of 366 Old 12-03-2019, 12:04 PM
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I guess I don't understand how a hypnotizing flashlight is supposedly dumber than a man stepping into a made-up "intrinsic field" chamber and turning into an omnipotent god who walks around wagging his bright blue penis at everyone.

This is a superhero story that takes place in a fantasy universe. There's going to be a little pseudoscience nonsense in it. That's the nature of the genre.
I guess either you can go with the assumptions or not. If you can't accept the fantasy elements, probably the show isn't for you.

Two of the biggest sci-fi franchises, Star Trek and Star Wars, had all sorts of crap that had to be bought into and that didn't stop people from liking the shows.
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post #322 of 366 Old 12-03-2019, 01:16 PM
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And besides that, it's the sort of device that breaks the logical coherence to the story. As if anyone possesses a hypnotizing device like that, they could basically rule the world. Why couldn't the grandfather just shine his flashlight at Angela when they first met, tell her to take a pill, way back several episodes ago? Why all the shenanigans over half the season? Or why not shine it on Keene, tell him to change his plans? Or... well, anything at all really? It's too powerful a device, it breaks the plot.
From what we've seen, the mesmerizing power of the flickering light only works when the subject is looking directly at it. Judd broke out of his trance as soon as Will stopped shining the flashlight in his face. Will had to turn it back on again to get Judd to hang himself. Likewise, the people in the movie theater (from the flashback) woke up after the movie was done playing.

The flashlight might have worked to get Angela to take a pill, but I assume her grandfather wanted her to come to her revelations of her own free will. It would not make Keene change his plans, because Keene would immediately become a racist a'hole again as soon as the flashlight turned off or the batteries died. I suppose Will could have made Keene kill himself like Judd, but there'd probably just be someone else waiting in the wings to take over. If Will wants to stomp out Cyclops/7th Kavalry for good, he'll need more than a little hypnosis trick to do it.

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post #323 of 366 Old 12-03-2019, 05:55 PM
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From what we've seen, the mesmerizing power of the flickering light only works when the subject is looking directly at it. Judd broke out of his trance as soon as Will stopped shining the flashlight in his face. Will had to turn it back on again to get Judd to hang himself. Likewise, the people in the movie theater (from the flashback) woke up after the movie was done playing.
True. Although I'll have to re-watch that hanging scene, for some reason I assumed Judd was busy with rope duties and not looking at the light when he hanged himself.

Still seems overpowered to me, but you are right, if he simply killed Keene there probably would be others waiting in the wings. But based on when he discovered this mesmerizing power, he had what, like 70 years or so to figure out who were members (easy to determine when you have a hypnosis flashlight), and simply 'remove' them. I suppose it's possible some escaped through the cracks (or in this case it'd be descendants), but you'd think he would have been able to stop them years ago with that kind of power.

As for Angela, yeah, I expect he wanted her to learn through her own free will. But that also required several coincidences, like her even finding the pills before Laurie or the cops, Angela not blabbing to the cops about him from the start, figuring out they were related without getting caught, Wade not turning her in earlier, and Laurie not arresting Angela in time, when, as a last resort, she gobbled down a bottle of pills. I guess we can add in her not dying from overdosing too.

Just seems a lot simpler if from their first meeting he said, "Hey, I'm your grandfather, here is a DNA sample, you won't believe my story, so here are some memory pills, please take one." And as a safeguard, use the magical flashlight if need be. It's a slightly easier route...


I think daryl zero hit upon the real issue I'm having. I'm simply not buying into the fantasy world. I have less invested in the story, don't really care about the characters a whole lot, so my suspension of disbelief meter has a low threshold. For Star Wars/Star Trek, I can let things pass simply due to being interested enough in the overall story. Or in Watchmen's case (the comic), I'm okay with the intrinsic field generator and squids, even though they are kind of ridiculous, because the rest of the story holds up.

For this show, I'm pretty bleh about it. Most of the plot seems to involve weird things occurring primarily for the sake of weirdness. I'm not buying into the story or world, so things like a magical flashlight, meta jokes, and courtroom piggies come across as stupid to me.
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post #324 of 366 Old 12-04-2019, 09:45 AM
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I think daryl zero hit upon the real issue I'm having. I'm simply not buying into the fantasy world. I have less invested in the story, don't really care about the characters a whole lot, so my suspension of disbelief meter has a low threshold. For Star Wars/Star Trek, I can let things pass simply due to being interested enough in the overall story. Or in Watchmen's case (the comic), I'm okay with the intrinsic field generator and squids, even though they are kind of ridiculous, because the rest of the story holds up.

For this show, I'm pretty bleh about it. Most of the plot seems to involve weird things occurring primarily for the sake of weirdness. I'm not buying into the story or world, so things like a magical flashlight, meta jokes, and courtroom piggies come across as stupid to me.
Fair enough. That's largely how I'm feeling about His Dark Materials.

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Fair enough. That's largely how I'm feeling about His Dark Materials.
There's a good Slate podcast about HDM. They say the books are experienced differently by children and well-read adults. Children intuit the adventurous aspect of the story, easily get immersed in it.

Adults can see multiple layers of meaning and all the literary allusions to Milton and others. Pullman also weaves in a tradition of heretics (such as those who claimed centuries ago that the earth orbited around the sun and that there was life on other solar systems) into the story to illustrate our changing perceptions of the universe at the same time he's building this alternate universe.

Meanwhile, Lyra has this innate genius with the alethiometer, being able to understand it immediately and fluently while the scholarly guy who reads the alethiometer for the Magisterium has devoted a lifetime to learning in preparation and still has to consult books for days just to be able to pose the question correctly.

But when the daemons of children "settle" -- they're no longer able to morph into different animals -- coinciding with puberty, Dust is attracted to them and they're more subject to becoming "heretical" in the eyes of the Magisterium. Dust is the physical manifestation of the Original Sin so that would be why the Magisterium is pursuing intercision, separating the daemon from the child, which has had disastrous effects as shown in the latest episode.
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post #326 of 366 Old 12-04-2019, 11:46 AM
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post #327 of 366 Old 12-04-2019, 11:47 AM
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Fair enough. That's largely how I'm feeling about His Dark Materials.
As to accepting stuff, my deal is that I want internal consistency. If they set up rules, follow them.
Star Trek had a bunch of stuff that I didn't care about: gravity, transporters etc but then they make up some crap about a technology fix in an emergency so it got stupid.
Star Wars had just a bunch of magic stuff that never made sense to me but the Force could basically do anything so I thought that show was stupid.

Watchmen is interesting because on one level it is grounded in reality, racism, sexism and what superheroes would really be like. On another level it is has Dr. Manhattan and the technology he brought in which creates weird science. I can understand how this juxtaposition of ultra reality coupled with fantasy would be jarring and would make viewing unpleasant. I, on the other hand, don't mind things conflicting with themselves as long as the rules remain steady and there aren't going to be some deus ex machina crap which changes everything at the end. As much as I have enjoyed the series (mainly for the realism), I am worried that we are headed to crazytown.

I have no idea what His Dark Materials is about. I've been peppering my wife about questions about the Daemon. What the heck are the rules there?

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post #328 of 366 Old 12-04-2019, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by daryl zero View Post
As to accepting stuff, my deal is that I want internal consistency. If they set up rules, follow them.
Star Trek had a bunch of stuff that I didn't care about: gravity, transporters etc but then they make up some crap about a technology fix in an emergency so it got stupid.
Star Wars had just a bunch of magic stuff that never made sense to me but the Force could basically do anything so I thought that show was stupid.

Watchmen is interesting because on one level it is grounded in reality, racism, sexism and what superheroes would really be like. On another level it is has Dr. Manhattan and the technology he brought in which creates weird science. I can understand how this juxtaposition of ultra reality coupled with fantasy would be jarring and would make viewing unpleasant. I, on the other hand, don't mind things conflicting with themselves as long as the rules remain steady and there aren't going to be some deus ex machina crap which changes everything at the end. As much as I have enjoyed the series (mainly for the realism), I am worried that we are headed to crazytown.

I have no idea what His Dark Materials is about. I've been peppering my wife about questions about the Daemon. What the heck are the rules there?

I agree in general about consistency, although depending on the overall story, sometimes I'll even let that slide a little bit. I should also add that although I like Star Trek/Wars, that doesn't necessarily apply to their most recent films. I didn't care for either of the last movies from both series, lots of things didn't really make much sense in those.

Regarding the show, the flashlight reveal felt a little deus ex machina to me, but again, part of that is because I'm not really into the world they built. I could accept a big blue god and squids in the comic, because the story itself held together. The elements you are referring to, such as what superheroes would really be like, works in the comics. But in the show, not so sure of that. Veidt has had a brain transplant and lives in crazytown, Laurie simply is a 'snide machine' now, and Keene is doing a villain impression from an old serial, even with trap doors. That's not how real people behave.

Another issue is how Lindelof tells a story. Or at least it's an issue to me. Instead of traditional storytelling, apparently he likes to throw out odd events and quirky mysteries to keep folks interested. And that's fine. But then he better have a really good payoff to make it all worth it. And so far, at least for me, the payoffs have been more of the stupid variety than 'wow, that made it worth my time.'

I tried to get into Dark Materials, but didn't even get past one episode. I may give it a shot again eventually, but... eh, don't know... it kind of left me cold, like I couldn't say anything was especially wrong with the story (especially since I just started it), but nothing grabbed me either.
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post #329 of 366 Old 12-04-2019, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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So was that really Dr. Manhattan or just something he created?

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post #330 of 366 Old 12-04-2019, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamR View Post
So was that really Dr. Manhattan or just something he created?

It seemed there was a piece of Dr. Manhattan inside his skull.

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