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post #331 of 456 Old 12-04-2019, 09:15 PM
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So was that really Dr. Manhattan or just something he created?


It was DR Manhattan himself. That piece removed blocked knowledge of himself so that he could live with and hide with Angela. At least that was my take.
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post #332 of 456 Old 12-04-2019, 09:47 PM
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It was DR Manhattan himself. That piece removed blocked knowledge of himself so that he could live with and hide with Angela. At least that was my take.
I think that is correct. The only way he could be human is to forget who he was.

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post #333 of 456 Old 12-04-2019, 10:12 PM
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He is also able to duplicate himself so if they wanted to add another twist to this twist he could have been somewhere else this whole time too.

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post #334 of 456 Old 12-04-2019, 10:32 PM
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He is also able to duplicate himself so if they wanted to add another twist to this twist he could have been somewhere else this whole time too.

Although that's certainly possible, it probably makes more sense if he's in singular form. I'd guess the point would be to regain some connection to humanity by becoming human again, and that won't work as well if he kept a spare blue body around doing god-like things.

It'll depend on his motives for playing human, which I assume we'll find out next week. Not quite sure how it'll fit in with Manhattan from the comic or where it ended, as he was already pretty disconnected from humanity by then.
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post #335 of 456 Old 12-04-2019, 11:54 PM
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Thing that was notable was that Angela didn't spend a second to consider if she should say goodbye to Cal by pummeling his skull with that hammer.

She said like he's been a good father and partner or something like that, but seeya!
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post #336 of 456 Old 12-05-2019, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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From HOTP thread:


TV Ratings: HBO’s ‘Watchmen’ Is a Word-of-Mouth Hit
By Kate Arthur, Variety.com - Dec. 4, 2019

You may have noticed on your Twitter feeds Sunday nights that “Watchmen” appears to be popular. Yet the innovative, critically praised HBO drama series is an actual hit, not merely a zeitgeist talker. Through its seven episodes so far, the show, created and executive produced by Damon Lindelof, is drawing an average of 7.1 million viewers across HBO’s linear channels and streaming platforms. According to HBO’s tallies, “Watchmen” is premium cable’s most popular new series of 2019, and HBO’s most-watched new series since “Big Little Lies.”

While “Watchmen” is no “Game of Thrones” — as we knew, we would never see its like again — its linear ratings are perfectly fine for a cable show in the Peak TV era. On Sunday night, Episode 7, “An Almost Religious Awe,” drew 779,000 viewers in Nielsen’s Live+Same Day ratings, the show’s highest numbers since the premiere (799,000 viewers). Across HBO platforms Sunday, that number grew to 1.2 million viewers.

HBO is a high-end brand that’s now at the center of the streaming wars. And that will only increase as the network becomes a key feeder to HBO Max — parent company WarnerMedia’s streaming service — when it launches in May. HBO’s ratings have always been difficult to quantify because of its many channels, but since the launch of HBO Go in 2015, the network also reports its digital numbers — which streaming services do not.

According to HBO, the Sunday night premiere ratings for “Watchmen” account for only a little more than 10% of the show’s audience; the viewership for the series’ first episode stands at 9.6 million total viewers. As word of mouth builds before the Dec. 15 season finale — HBO2 will be marathoning the show this Sunday and next Sunday, and the whole season on Dec. 21 and Jan. 1 — that number will only grow.

Now there’s only one question for “Watchmen” fans: When will the show be renewed?

https://variety.com/2019/tv/news/hbo...gs-1203425067/
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post #337 of 456 Old 12-06-2019, 01:29 PM
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OMG, I just realized Trieu's logo is an elephant
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post #338 of 456 Old 12-08-2019, 08:14 PM
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Really enjoyed tonight’s episode. The use of time shifting to connect everything was great. Thought Regina and Yahya killed it.

Hopefully everyone stuck with it for the “stinger” after the credits.
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post #339 of 456 Old 12-08-2019, 09:11 PM
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F***king LOVE this show!!!
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post #340 of 456 Old 12-08-2019, 10:58 PM
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Seems some are enjoying the show. No real surprise here, but this episode didn't exactly change my mind, I'm liking it less with every reveal.

On the plus side, we got to see Irons tone down the wacky mode and act a little bit like a normal human. I just kind of wish we saw more of semi-normal Veidt instead of crazy-town Veidt.

Lindelof must have read a different version of Watchmen than I did -- Manhattan didn't exactly strike me as connected to humanity any longer by the end of the comic, nor the type to go bar-hopping looking for love. But I guess an empathetic, loving Manhattan was his takeaway... somehow.

At least Lindelof wasn't heavy handed with the religious overtones, besides the bible, creation story, new version of eden with a fresh set of Adam and Eves, god in human form, need for worship, and walking on water, twice.

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post #341 of 456 Old 12-09-2019, 07:40 AM
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Really enjoyed tonight’s episode. The use of time shifting to connect everything was great. Thought Regina and Yahya killed it.

Hopefully everyone stuck with it for the “stinger” after the credits.
Crap. Now I'm going to have to look for a stinger.

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post #342 of 456 Old 12-09-2019, 08:46 AM
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So why did the blue guy just let himself get zapped?

He killed every one of the bad guys except the one on the truck with that ray cannon.

Because he experienced all these timelines and he can’t change time?

Yet Angela probably have her grandfather the idea that the Don Johnson character was secretly 7th Kalvary, cus changing the course of events.
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post #343 of 456 Old 12-09-2019, 09:54 AM
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Watch the credits

I normally don't finish the watching the credits scroll but for some reason I let it continue because I was listening to the music playing. I am so glad I did otherwise I would have missed that entire scene.
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post #344 of 456 Old 12-09-2019, 10:13 AM
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Crap. Now I'm going to have to look for a stinger.

"Stinger" isn't even really the right word. It's a whole five-minute or so scene after the credits.

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post #345 of 456 Old 12-09-2019, 10:18 AM
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So why did the blue guy just let himself get zapped?

He killed every one of the bad guys except the one on the truck with that ray cannon.

Because he experienced all these timelines and he can’t change time?

For that matter, why didn't he just teleport away from the house before the 7K attacked? I think either he had resigned himself to what would happen and wanted to see it play out, or he knows that the plan to destroy him and give Keane his powers won't work and is just playing along.

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post #346 of 456 Old 12-09-2019, 10:31 AM
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My guess is that there will be second season and additional seasons because the ratings have been good from what I hear.

So they may not want a god as one of the characters, because he could obviously end any kind of conflict easily.

Instead, they'll get rid of the character for season 2 and beyond and the combatants will be more evenly matched.
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post #347 of 456 Old 12-09-2019, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Watchmen director breaks down that mind-blowing Doctor Manhattan episode


Warning: This article contains spoilers about Sunday’s episode of Watchmen, titled “A God Walks Into Abar.”

There’s a lot going on in HBO’s Watchmen. That’s been true all season, but things turned up a notch with tonight’s Doctor Manhattan-focused installment. Following the cliffhanger revelation last week that Cal Abar (Yahya Abdul Mateen II) was secretly the big blue superhero in disguise, this week’s episode explored how Angela Abar (Regina King) originally met with Doctor Manhattan, and how they came up with the plan to disguise him as an amnesiac human. To break down the twists and turns of “A God Walks Into Abar,” EW caught up with producer Nicole Kassell, who directed the episode as well as the first two of the season.

That’s not the end of our Watchmen coverage this week. Read EW’s recap of “A God Walks Into Abar” here. Read our interview with actor Yahya Abdul Mateen II here.

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: The show has been teasing Doctor Manhattan’s arrival since the first episode, and certainly anyone going into a Watchmen TV show would expect to see him at some point. When you were approaching bringing this character into the show and directing his focus episode, what did you see as the biggest challenge?

NICOLE KASSELL: Oh, the whole thing. The whole putting Doctor Manhattan on screen, and making this choice. It was super exciting, both simultaneously being truthful to the source and truthful to our story of 2019. In the episode we have the Doctor Manhattan from the source. Before he inhabits Yahya’s body, it’s true Doctor Manhattan, so putting that character on screen was extremely daunting and exciting. But then once we’re firmly in the land of our alternate 2019 version, then it’s slightly different. There’s still the pressure of it being great, and performance anxiety, but there’s not the attachment that comes from putting truly the source on screen.

The most we see of the original Doctor Manhattan is in the bar with Angela. We don’t see his face full-front at all; the camera mostly focuses on the back of his head and his hands. What was the thinking behind that filming choice? Was it about separating him from the Cal version?

It was absolutely deliberate and scripted that we would not see his face until he became Cal. For me, that was important for two purposes. One was in depicting the original Doctor Manhattan, the one from the book. To not show him, to not say who this is, allows all the fans of the comic to never have to grapple with ‘that’s not how I see him.’ The adaptations of novels so often fail or disappoint fans of the source because you fall in love with the image of your mind’s eye, and no one can replicate that. By not showing his face, it protects those viewers who have that vision and can have it forever. More importantly to our storytelling and the script by Damon and Jeff Jensen, by not showing him, the punch of ‘wow’ when you see him become Yahya is just so extraordinary. Even having directed the episode, when I watch it and we get to that moment, I still go, ‘oh my god!’ I think first and foremost it’s brilliant storytelling, withholding to such an extent that transformation lands so enormously.

We start the episode with the original Doctor Manhattan, and then we see him as Cal in Yahya’s body, but then after he wakes up it’s kind of a mix of the two. Earlier in the episode Adrian Veidt, when he first sees him as Cal, almost accuses him of appropriation. So because that line is in the episode, I know that was something you guys were thinking about. What was your worry about it seeming like blackface or appropriation?

We definitely don’t want to be accused of either, but the thinking was, it was very important that Cal be Doctor Manhattan to spur a conversation of, ‘if you didn’t see that he might be Cal, what’s that say?’ There’s the idea of hiding in plain sight. It starts from story and theme. This series is tackling race head-on and so many things around it: Conscious/unconscious bias, conscious/unconscious racism. So it thematically ties right into all of those things.

The way we thought about it literally was that Doctor Manhattan had been in this form for 10 years, so when he comes out of it, the chip’s removed, and you see him awaken. That’s why Cal seems so disoriented, it’s Doctor Manhattan reemerging. It felt truthful to the process that he wouldn’t even be grappling with what his physical form was in that moment. That’s the suit he’s been wearing for 10 years, so he’s keeping it on. The blue comes because those are his powers. The chip removed his powers, not his physical form. Doctor Manhattan chose that body before the chip went in, and the choice of that body is on screen, and it’s critical that it’s Angela’s choice for him to take that form. And then the reason he stays in that form is because it’s not even a priority or a question for him. That’s the skin he’s wearing. It’s like, why is he naked in the book? Because he doesn’t give a s–t! He doesn’t care what his form is. That’s how the character justifies being Cal still. In a sense, it’s like a hangover or coming out of a coma. The blue and the eyes and all that are a result of his powers re-emerging. Whether to stay who this person is for weeks and days or however long he wants, that’s a choice he can make. But that’s not where our story is right now. He’s got bigger fish to fry.

Another interesting thing about this episode is that it’s the first time we see a conversation between two characters from the original Watchmen, when Veidt and Jon talk at Karnak. More than that, it’s the first time we see Veidt before his exile, where he’s behaving more like we’d expect. What was the pressure of staging both him and Jon in their closer-to-book versions?

It wasn’t pressure so much as total delight. We still had the gift of it being (let me do my math) 2009, so time has passed. It’s not quite putting the source on screen, but yes, it was super thrilling putting actual Karnak from the book on screen. I definitely made deliberate homage to some camera angles from the source, for when Doctor Manhattan is approaching it from the exterior. It was really fun to play on that. It was a really amazing couple days of working with these actors. They’re both phenomenal. They met for the first time the day before shooting, but the way in which they fully play the parts as if they’re equals, comrades, frenemies…it was extremely powerful and fun to show two old friends coming together. It was really exciting to show a reunion. Veidt’s at his lowest of lows, and Doctor Manhattan’s at his highest of highs: He’s in love, in the prime of a beautiful body, while Veidt is depressed and aging and suffering all the indignities of humanity. His ego’s been brutalized, and then the only person he could be inferior to walks into the room. The set-up is so fun, and the two actors did it so beautifully. I loved bringing in the actors and saying ‘you’ve been friends for 30 years,’ and they got it. They captured the essence of their characters and how they would respond to the other person in the room.

How did you get the walking-on-water effect? It’s a pretty important shot, Doctor Manhattan even tells Angela “you need to see me on the pool for later” and it plays into the overall God symbolism, so how did you pull it off?

Technically we had scaffolding holding up a thin layer of clear plexiglass, so you would see his feet interact with the water. Then with visual effects we removed what you could see of the scaffolding through the water.


I attended the Watchmen panel at this year’s New York Comic Con, and I remember you saying on stage that you would occasionally use panels from the comic as reference points for framing shots. We can see some of that in this episode, whether at Karnak or when Doctor Manhattan is killing Seventh Kavalry members in the same manner he killed the original Rorschach. But this episode echoes not just the images but the storytelling of the original comic, especially the Doctor Manhattan-focused chapters that span these different moments across time and space. That climaxes here in the scene when Jon is talking to Will and Angela at once, 10 years apart. How challenging was it to adapt that time-displaced storytelling for the screen?

That was definitely really challenging in terms of how to create the transitions so it felt like what he just said in one scene was literally being heard by the other actor in the next scene. First of all it was performance, and then really focusing on making sure that it felt like, when we cut, we would be cutting back to Will but instead it’s Angela in this point. Like with the other match cuts, I filmed it as if it was a continuous move to the other character. It was very concretely planned and designed that way.

That conversation reminded me of one of the key tenets of the Watchmen comic, which was imagining if superheroes actually existed in the real world and how their powers and tactics might be applied to real-life situations. Here in this episode you guys came up with another example of what superpowers could do in real life: How about connecting a broken family across generations?

Exactly. Isn’t that gorgeous?

Speaking of time-displaced storytelling, what parallels do you see between this episode and the flashback episode to Will’s life as Hooded Justice, directed by Stephen Williams?

Honestly I wasn’t comparing them. Six was always to me a stand-alone episode in terms of those long single takes. It’s interesting that I feel the connection more concretely as a viewer now, I feel the echoes. But I have to say it’s very unconscious, except that we had these guiding principles to the show as a whole. The scene that really struck me is in this episode when Angela kills all the Seventh Kavalry guys. When I finally saw episode 6, there was just an effect of seeing it as a viewer with this distance, I was like ‘oh my gosh.’ When she goes out and kills all those people, and it feels awful doing that and filming it even if they’re bad guys, I felt concretely the echo to where Will does that with the KKK guys. I know that was totally deliberate on Damon and Jeff’s part. Things hit at different parts. When you’re filming it you’re focused not just on the story, but preoccupied by how to do it. The big picture themes have been a real delight to watch at a distance, to see how thoroughly those are all arising. I know that’s what Damon and the writers are doing.


https://ew.com/tv/2019/12/08/watchme...ode-interview/

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post #348 of 456 Old 12-09-2019, 10:58 AM
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Now we know why Angela was so hostile to Laurie. She wasn't going to give her hubby's ex a chance.
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post #349 of 456 Old 12-09-2019, 11:24 AM
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Pretty annoying that they have not done stingers/after-credit scenes before and this is the first episode....totally missed it

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post #350 of 456 Old 12-09-2019, 11:53 AM
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Masterclass on non-linear storytelling!


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post #351 of 456 Old 12-09-2019, 12:42 PM
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For that matter, why didn't he just teleport away from the house before the 7K attacked? I think either he had resigned himself to what would happen and wanted to see it play out, or he knows that the plan to destroy him and give Keane his powers won't work and is just playing along.
If I had to guess, Manhattan will be killed, but then resurrected/reborn ... which kind of was alluded to both by his tragic ending comment as well as that whole "egg/piece of him can transfer his powers" conversation. But I also thought Veidt's crazytown adventures were just altered memories and not actually real, so who knows... my batting avg on guesses isn't that great.

Logically of course it makes no sense why he didn't teleport away or zap the entire area. I guess unless it's to serve a greater good by being captured, I suppose, but as of yet that doesn't make much sense. That also assumes Manhattan would care that much about humanity ... comic version and show versions of the characters aren't quite the same.

I am still wondering how Veidt used an old-style diving suit to walk on Europa, since the radiation alone would have killed him pretty quickly. I guess NASA should start researching bison fur.

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post #352 of 456 Old 12-09-2019, 02:47 PM
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I wasn't familiar with the story before watching the HBO series. It's so all over the place, it reminds me of the Abbott & Costello Who's on First? routine.
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post #353 of 456 Old 12-10-2019, 07:22 AM
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Pretty annoying that they have not done stingers/after-credit scenes before and this is the first episode....totally missed it
Maybe this is the show-runner's way of rewarding those of us who *always* sit through the credits instead of only doing so when we know ahead of time that there's going to be a cookie.
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post #354 of 456 Old 12-10-2019, 07:39 AM
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Pretty annoying that they have not done stingers/after-credit scenes before and this is the first episode....totally missed it
being a fan of marvel movies, i have learned to never not watch until the credits are finished and it's all done and gone.

yeah, i was surprised, pleasantly surprised too and i was like it's about time that they did it!
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post #355 of 456 Old 12-10-2019, 08:17 AM
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I usually fast forward through ending credit to see the previews for next episode on all shows.
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post #356 of 456 Old 12-10-2019, 11:28 AM
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Maybe this is the show-runner's way of rewarding those of us who *always* sit through the credits instead of only doing so when we know ahead of time that there's going to be a cookie.
I'd think that most viewers would stay through the credits of a TV show, if only to watch the preview for the next episode. A TV show's credits are only about a minute long, as opposed to a feature film that might have 15 minutes of credits.

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post #357 of 456 Old 12-10-2019, 02:05 PM
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Heads up Lindelof did an interview with The Watch podcast this week. May give some partial insights into why certain decisions were made for the show.
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post #358 of 456 Old 12-10-2019, 02:11 PM
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For that matter, why didn't he just teleport away from the house before the 7K attacked? I think either he had resigned himself to what would happen and wanted to see it play out, or he knows that the plan to destroy him and give Keane his powers won't work and is just playing along.


He did say they couldn’t stop it, but now we are getting into multiverse territory which I’m not sure is covered in the show/universe. So while Manhattan can see the past/present/future it is on a “determined” path. He loved Angela and if he teleports, doesn’t that just delay the inevitable of the 7C trying to get him again. Leaving her there would either get her killed or captured. He could have teleported them both off, but would they be able to live away forever....as it’s been said he could give his powers away (theoretically) and Angela might be the recipient of those powers as one final gesture. He’s grown tired of being who he is (from actions/words) so I’m not sure he wants to be Mr Manhattan any more either.
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post #359 of 456 Old 12-10-2019, 02:37 PM
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He did say they couldn’t stop it, but now we are getting into multiverse territory which I’m not sure is covered in the show/universe. So while Manhattan can see the past/present/future it is on a “determined” path.
The issue I have with that scene is the situation is kind of nonsensical. If we are going with the pre-determined path idea, okay, but it should at least still make sense. Like Dr. Manhattan zaps the entire area, but above a flying ship appears and zaps him. Or Manhattan decides to teleport to the Cyclops base, but they have a gun waiting to zap them there. Just 'forgetting' to zap a guy right next to the gun doesn't really work as well, as even if pre-determined, the event probably should be somewhat realistic to begin with. I think it would have worked a lot better if they went with what the comics did -- tachyons blocking his future vision.

That's also a problem I have (with what we know), about Manhattan bar-hopping looking for love. Okay, so what was the underlying reason for this, when Manhattan was pretty much done with humanity by the end of the comic? He got tired of playing with his Europa toys and felt like getting laid?

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post #360 of 456 Old 12-10-2019, 02:55 PM
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The issue I have with that scene is the situation is kind of nonsensical. If we are going with the pre-determined path idea, okay, but it should at least still make sense. Like Dr. Manhattan zaps the entire area, but above a flying ship appears and zaps him. Or Manhattan decides to teleport to the Cyclops base, but they have a gun waiting to zap them there. Just 'forgetting' to zap a guy right next to the gun doesn't really work as well, as even if pre-determined, the event probably should be somewhat realistic to begin with. I think it would have worked a lot better if they went with what the comics did -- tachyons blocking his future vision.

That's also a problem I have (with what we know), about Manhattan bar-hopping looking for love. Okay, so what was the underlying reason for this, when Manhattan was pretty much done with humanity by the end of the comic? He got tired of playing with his Europa toys and felt like getting laid?


I’m just going to base it on a linear timeline, not multiple. So no matter what they did, he would still get “caught”. I don’t think he “forgot” at all, things happened exactly as he saw them happen. Which is why he said “no” to her when she thought they won.

I’m not sure he was “bar-hopping”, always difficult to discuss Manhattan since the way he observes time is hard to comprehend. His interactions with Angela, was/is/will be all based on love. I think he got tired of being worshiped, period. He created the perfect society, but all they did was serve him, when he wanted them to serve themselves. This workaround allowed him to live a “normal” life with the woman who he loves. His reason he lives her was point blank shown in the show, I’m not sure there is deeper meaning to it.

Sometimes I think this show would be better described as a love story/character study set within the Watchmen universe. I’ve been enjoying the show after letting go looking for connections and instead focusing on the characters and story Lindelof is trying to tell.
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