Watchmen series on HBO - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 368 Old 11-13-2019, 08:49 PM
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SO I'm making my way through the comic book. Haven't got as far as I thought I would, but still making progress. The movie follows the first part of the book pretty closely. One observation is that Rorschach is much more depraved than the movie let on. You kinda pull for him in the movie, but he's clearly damaged goods here.

I had some trouble adjusting to the flow and style but I think I've got the rhythm down now. I've never really been a comic book reader (other than SGT. Rock when I was a kid), and it's a different experience than reading a novel. I'm enjoying it.

Speaking of SGT. Rock, I always thought that would have been killer with an in prime Mickey Rourke. A slightly diluted version of his Sin City's Marv, plus Nazi Zombies. What could go wrong?
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post #212 of 368 Old 11-13-2019, 11:00 PM
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I've never really been a comic book reader (other than SGT. Rock when I was a kid), and it's a different experience than reading a novel. I'm enjoying it.
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post #213 of 368 Old 11-14-2019, 12:54 AM
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Watchmen is a very dense read especially for a comic book. I used the same strategy I did when I read The Silmarillion which was to have a web browser open so I could keep track of things.

The movie was almost a panel-for-panel adaptation with only minor changes. The biggest change was the mechanism for the ending but it still has the same result. The show follows the comic book ending.

As for this show I'm not quite sure what to make of it yet. 4 episodes in and they are still doing a lot of setup. And it seems like they are telling their own story about current events that they forced into the Watchmen world, rather than making an organic follow up to the comic.

And for those interested DC did their own sequel recently called Doomsday Clock and there was also a prequel called Before Watchmen.
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post #214 of 368 Old 11-14-2019, 08:12 PM
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Watchmen is a very dense read especially for a comic book. I used the same strategy I did when I read The Silmarillion which was to have a web browser open so I could keep track of things.

The movie was almost a panel-for-panel adaptation with only minor changes. The biggest change was the mechanism for the ending but it still has the same result. The show follows the comic book ending.

As for this show I'm not quite sure what to make of it yet. 4 episodes in and they are still doing a lot of setup. And it seems like they are telling their own story about current events that they forced into the Watchmen world, rather than making an organic follow up to the comic.

And for those interested DC did their own sequel recently called Doomsday Clock and there was also a prequel called Before Watchmen.


I'm surprised to hear that. If that's the case, then why the almost universal disdain for the movie from the book readers? Just fashionable? I was expecting big shifts in the narrative due to all the panning of the movie. (which I thought was awesome).
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post #215 of 368 Old 11-14-2019, 09:56 PM
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I'm surprised to hear that. If that's the case, then why the almost universal disdain for the movie from the book readers? Just fashionable? I was expecting big shifts in the narrative due to all the panning of the movie. (which I thought was awesome).
I don't want to go into too much detail since you are currently reading the book, but to me the problem was that Snyder kind of missed the point of the comic (again, just my opinion). Snyder emphasized action too often, and turned vigilantes into super heroes (sorta). I've had friends who watched the film just assume all the Watchmen characters had super powers -- they certainly don't fight like middle-aged, out of shape vigilantes in the film, with all the slow motion, bone-breaking action. Where Moore deconstructs the superhero, Snyder glorifies it (to a certain extent).

Studio pressure certainly could have influenced some of his decisions. I expect Hollywood was antsy about the material to begin with, so wanted more action + typical superhero stuff thrown in. And time constraints of course was an issue. Hard to squeeze in the entire run in a 2-3 hr film. Certain aspects of the comic that I really enjoyed, such as the psychiatrist-Rorschach dynamic, was shortened in the film... something had to be cut, after all. I just kind of wish it wasn't the slower parts of the story.

So it may not be so much major narrative differences, just stylistic choices and emphasis on the wrong things that may have bugged some comic readers. Or that's what bugged me, I can't really speak for anyone else.

The ending is different, but I won't go into detail there. It's also not a huge difference really... the movie ending may even work better.
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post #216 of 368 Old 11-14-2019, 10:08 PM
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I'm surprised to hear that. If that's the case, then why the almost universal disdain for the movie from the book readers? Just fashionable? I was expecting big shifts in the narrative due to all the panning of the movie. (which I thought was awesome).
In terms of narrative it follows the book exactly. The only change was the ending which was approved by Dave Gibbons.

In fact it follows the comic too closely. It doesn't compress the story, it just cuts parts of it out and jumps to the next scene so it feels very disjointed and confusing. I'm sure the extended version is better in that regard.

The biggest problem was the hyper-violence and giving characters literal bonebreaking superhuman strength. I'm sure Zack Snyder didn't understand any of the themes but since he copied and pasted the comic it still ended up being faithful in some way. But as previous poster says it almost glorifies the heroes which is against the point of the comic.
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post #217 of 368 Old 11-15-2019, 08:26 AM
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Understood. Thanks guys.
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post #218 of 368 Old 11-15-2019, 09:15 AM
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The biggest problem was the hyper-violence and giving characters literal bonebreaking superhuman strength. I'm sure Zack Snyder didn't understand any of the themes but since he copied and pasted the comic it still ended up being faithful in some way. But as previous poster says it almost glorifies the heroes which is against the point of the comic.
The movie also had some very frustrating casting issues. Although both Jeffrey Dean Morgan and Jackie Earle Haley are nearly spot-on perfect as The Comedian and Rorschach, other choices are really puzzling. The fit and buff and handsome Patrick Wilson is all wrong for Nite Owl, who's supposed to be a middle-aged, out-of-shape schlub. Matthew Goode is a terrible Ozymandias for almost the opposite reason. Ozymandias is supposed to be an intimidating, godlike specimen of physical perfection, but Goode is a wisp of a man who'd blow over in a stiff breeze. He was also about ten years too young.

The less said about Malin Akerman, the better. She's dreadful in the movie.

The scene where Akerman and Patrick Wilson have sex while Leonard Cohen's "Hallelujah" plays on the soundtrack and a burst of flame erupts from the Owlship when they orgasm is a total embarrassment of filmmaking on every level.
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post #219 of 368 Old 11-15-2019, 10:13 AM
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The flame part was in the comic but point taken.

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post #220 of 368 Old 11-15-2019, 12:44 PM
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The movie also had some very frustrating casting issues. Although both Jeffrey Dean Morgan and Jackie Earle Haley are nearly spot-on perfect as The Comedian and Rorschach, other choices are really puzzling. The fit and buff and handsome Patrick Wilson is all wrong for Nite Owl, who's supposed to be a middle-aged, out-of-shape schlub. Matthew Goode is a terrible Ozymandias for almost the opposite reason. Ozymandias is supposed to be an intimidating, godlike specimen of physical perfection, but Goode is a wisp of a man who'd blow over in a stiff breeze. He was also about ten years too young.

The less said about Malin Akerman, the better. She's dreadful in the movie.

The scene where Akerman and Patrick Wilson have sex while Leonard Cohen's "Hallelujah" plays on the soundtrack and a burst of flame erupts from the Owlship when they orgasm is a total embarrassment of filmmaking on every level.

I forgot about the Hallelujah scene... yeah, not exactly a cinema landmark there.

I definitely agree about Akerman and Goode. Very weird casting choices. I was okay with Wilson though. Not ideal, but I could accept it ... could have been worse. The rest of the cast was fine, and I thought Crudup's calm, sometimes monotone delivery worked for Manhattan pretty well.

But what didn't work so well were the prosthetics (Nixon looked like he just stopped in from a Halloween party) and Sally had that fake old look to her. The CGI for Manhattan also takes a little getting used to ... good enough, but not quite up to today's standards.

At least it has really nice credits, that's where Snyder's style works. But there are some flaws with any film where the opening credits are the highlight.
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post #221 of 368 Old 11-15-2019, 08:13 PM
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The CGI for Manhattan also takes a little getting used to ... good enough, but not quite up to today's standards.
Was his, uh, member, not quite realistic?
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post #222 of 368 Old 11-16-2019, 11:57 AM
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Here is the live action comic if any are interested.


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post #223 of 368 Old 11-16-2019, 10:02 PM
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The movie (other than the intro) was pretty much exactly like that.

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post #224 of 368 Old 11-18-2019, 09:50 AM
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Last night's episode continued to kick ass! So much to unpack, but if you are not excited by now, I don't see the point of continuing.
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post #225 of 368 Old 11-18-2019, 10:57 AM
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Why did they let him go after showing their secret hideout, only to send some goons to his house at the end?
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So, did they just retcon the entire graphic novel (with the squid and the interdimensional stuff/concept)? Is it all BS? How in the world did Adrian Veidt make the squid just appear in the middle of NYC?

It felt a little un-even dedicating so much time to Looking Glass's backstory and his life - considering the momentum that was built around Lady Trieu - I felt like they left that plot line just hanging out there.

I alos found it odd that they trusted Looking Glass with so much information - did they know and just trust that he would be so disenfranchised with the realization that he's lived his entire life shrouded for no reason. That seems like a pretty big stretch - he's just now a member or at least working with the 7th Cavalry?

And how in the world did Senator Keane just takeover leadership of the 7th? It sounds like they were setting up terrorist cell leaderships to ensure there wasn't violence after the White Night - but how does that gel with the whole suicide bomber last episode?

I guess, I just don't get it at this point...

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BTS Squid Shelter (spoilers for episode 5)
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post #228 of 368 Old 11-18-2019, 11:51 AM
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Why did they let him go after showing their secret hideout, only to send some goons to his house at the end?
The senator asked Wade to set up Angela to get arrested by Blake in order to take her out of the picture for a few days. They released him so he could do that. After he did, they apparently betrayed him.

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post #229 of 368 Old 11-18-2019, 11:59 AM
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So, did they just retcon the entire graphic novel (with the squid and the interdimensional stuff/concept)? Is it all BS? How in the world did Adrian Veidt make the squid just appear in the middle of NYC?
That's not a retcon. That's how the comic ended, with Veidt staging the squid attack in order to unite humanity against a common (fake) enemy. Teleportation technology and advanced genetic manipulation exist in this universe. Veidt manufactured the squid monster and teleported it into the center of New York City.

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And how in the world did Senator Keane just takeover leadership of the 7th? It sounds like they were setting up terrorist cell leaderships to ensure there wasn't violence after the White Night - but how does that gel with the whole suicide bomber last episode?
I assume that the attack at the funeral was staged in order to divert suspicion from the senator.
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post #230 of 368 Old 11-18-2019, 12:02 PM
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BTW, how good of an asset is a guy who literally wears a tin foil hat?
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post #231 of 368 Old 11-18-2019, 12:04 PM
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That's not a retcon. That's how the comic ended, with Veidt staging the squid attack in order to unite humanity against a common (fake) enemy. Teleportation technology and advanced genetic manipulation exist in this universe. Veidt manufactured the squid monster and teleported it into the center of New York City.


I assume that the attack at the funeral was staged in order to divert suspicion from the senator.
Ahh that - makes sense - guess I don't remember the movie (which I understand doesn't even include this narrative) well enough and I probably need to actually read the graphic novel

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post #232 of 368 Old 11-18-2019, 12:08 PM
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So, did they just retcon the entire graphic novel (with the squid and the interdimensional stuff/concept)? Is it all BS? How in the world did Adrian Veidt make the squid just appear in the middle of NYC?

It felt a little un-even dedicating so much time to Looking Glass's backstory and his life - considering the momentum that was built around Lady Trieu - I felt like they left that plot line just hanging out there.

I alos found it odd that they trusted Looking Glass with so much information - did they know and just trust that he would be so disenfranchised with the realization that he's lived his entire life shrouded for no reason. That seems like a pretty big stretch - he's just now a member or at least working with the 7th Cavalry?

And how in the world did Senator Keane just takeover leadership of the 7th? It sounds like they were setting up terrorist cell leaderships to ensure there wasn't violence after the White Night - but how does that gel with the whole suicide bomber last episode?

I guess, I just don't get it at this point...
As for your retcon comment, I guess you haven't read the comic? If going by the movie, then yeah, it may seem odd. But although the movie was very close to the narrative of the comic, it wasn't exactly the same.

And regarding the suicide bomber, when I watched that episode originally my first thought was, 'Okay, Keane is in cahoots with the 7th Kalvary'. He gave himself up too quickly, no hesitation -- nobody is that brave. It was also a way to make himself look like a hero, with no actual risk. Well, there was some risk, seeing as the bomb was live -- logically you'd think it'd be a fake bomb, Keane kidnapped, released, and still look like a hero. So no clue why it was a real suicide bomber, a fake bomber would have made more sense.

I liked this episiode a bit better than previous ones ... I liked the first half of the episode, anyway. Looking Glass is one of the more interesting characters and filling in his backstory at least adds a little meat to the show. It also provided a better tie-in with the comic, showing the aftermath of the NY event, and a little pathos to Looking Glass.

But yeah, it stopped the Lady Trieu stuff dead in the tracks. I guess they'll pick that up later. And I found some of the way things played out a bit too much like a TV cliche. What if Looking Glass just waited outside the factory, like any normal human would, waiting for backup? And when it didn't arrive, he went and got real cops? What if he was armed his own real gun? The 'lettuce' trap felt kind of fake to me, just something that happens in TV shows.

What I didn't care for was Veidt. No clue why the smartest man in the World would create a recording of himself debunking the event he created, when he went to extreme measures to keep it a secret. I won't beat a dead horse about his weird jail/dream/whatever he is trapped in, but that's not really working for me. The comments about an absent God made me think perhaps this was a post-watchmen world created by Manhattan, but who knows... perhaps it's all fake and in Veidt's head. He couldn't walk around on a moon of Jupiter (if that's where that place was) in a Nemo-style diving outfit, so maybe none of it is real. Which is a catch-22 of real or fake, whatever is occurring, it's probably stupid.
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post #233 of 368 Old 11-18-2019, 03:30 PM
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What if he was armed his own real gun?
This point, at least, can be answered. Cops in this world are not allowed to carry firearms without authorization, and he wasn't even in his police vehicle. The 7K knew he wouldn't have a gun on him when he's off duty, so they left him one to find as encouragement for him to enter the building by himself.

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What I didn't care for was Veidt. No clue why the smartest man in the World would create a recording of himself debunking the event he created, when he went to extreme measures to keep it a secret. I won't beat a dead horse about his weird jail/dream/whatever he is trapped in, but that's not really working for me. The comments about an absent God made me think perhaps this was a post-watchmen world created by Manhattan, but who knows... perhaps it's all fake and in Veidt's head. He couldn't walk around on a moon of Jupiter (if that's where that place was) in a Nemo-style diving outfit, so maybe none of it is real. Which is a catch-22 of real or fake, whatever is occurring, it's probably stupid.
Sadly, I agree on all this.

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post #234 of 368 Old 11-18-2019, 04:10 PM
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I suspect a lot of mysteries will become clear when the series catches up with Dr Manhattan. Especially what's going on with Veidt.

There have been many hints.
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post #235 of 368 Old 11-18-2019, 04:11 PM
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But yeah, it stopped the Lady Trieu stuff dead in the tracks. I guess they'll pick that up later.
Certainly not next week as it looks like we are getting a tropey "memory trip" episode.

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post #236 of 368 Old 11-18-2019, 05:09 PM
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Certainly not next week as it looks like we are getting a tropey "memory trip" episode.

I didn't check the upcoming episode clip, but I hope the entire thing isn't just backstory/pill side effects. How many episodes are left, four I think? Or three, if we discount next week's episode. That's not leaving many left for actual story.
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post #237 of 368 Old 11-18-2019, 05:16 PM
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This point, at least, can be answered. Cops in this world are not allowed to carry firearms without authorization, and he wasn't even in his police vehicle. The 7K knew he wouldn't have a gun on him when he's off duty, so they left him one to find as encouragement for him to enter the building by himself.
True, but if I remember right, they did away with the firearm rule during one of those masked meetings? Panda-mask guy argued against it, I think? I may be remembering incorrectly, but could have sworn that rule was lifted at least temporarily.

We are also talking about a guy who has some issues -- has a bunker, does a zillion emergency drills, is a bit shell-shocked (or squid-shocked) and wears a tin foil hat, literally. If anyone carried a spare weapon, rules or no rules, it seems like he'd be the guy.
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post #238 of 368 Old 11-18-2019, 05:19 PM
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That weapons lock makes no sense.

Obviously the idea wasn't written in with knowledge of the contemporary world where police have demonstrated they will shoot first, ask questions later.

Cops are getting actively hunted down and they lock up the weapons?

That scene in the pilot of making a traffic stop on a deserted road, hard to imagine cops would stay on the job if they're suppose to have that interaction unarmed.
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post #239 of 368 Old 11-18-2019, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
That weapons lock makes no sense.

Obviously the idea wasn't written in with knowledge of the contemporary world where police have demonstrated they will shoot first, ask questions later.

Cops are getting actively hunted down and they lock up the weapons?

That scene in the pilot of making a traffic stop on a deserted road, hard to imagine cops would stay on the job if they're suppose to have that interaction unarmed.

This show doesn't take place in our contemporary world. It's an alternate timeline with a different history. Supposedly, the peace had been maintained for the past few years until that traffic stop incident.

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post #240 of 368 Old 11-18-2019, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
True, but if I remember right, they did away with the firearm rule during one of those masked meetings? Panda-mask guy argued against it, I think? I may be remembering incorrectly, but could have sworn that rule was lifted at least temporarily.
I believe that was only a temporary action while they rounded up 7K suspects, and it only applied to officers on duty. While off-duty, carrying a weapon might give them away as cops.

Fair point about Wade seeming like a guy who'd break that rule, though.

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