Chernobyl mini-series on HBO - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 184 Old 05-28-2019, 04:49 PM
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I will watch this series when I get a chance.

Chernobyl was a disaster and yet the real disaster is that it turned the world towards almost unconstrained burning of fossil fuels , as nuclear is phased out with nothing else to replace it, and this planet will pay a far greater price for that than we would with a dozen Chernobyls. The current predictions are that we might see a 2 metre (6.5ft) rise in sea levels by 2100, and it will probably be worse than that. Picture the planet with 10-14 billion people and far less farmland than we have now.

Chernobyl marked the beginning of the end of rational thought and rational decision making. Far fewer people died from Chernobyl than on a typical airliner crash, and yet we all fly without a second thought, and no one contemplates banning air travel.
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post #62 of 184 Old 05-28-2019, 06:36 PM
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This is a must watch from back in the day if you are interested in Chernobyl. This is Magnum photographer Paul Fusco's work and narration.


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post #63 of 184 Old 05-28-2019, 06:37 PM
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Gonna watch the new one tonight. The holiday jacked me into thinking last night was Sunday.
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post #64 of 184 Old 05-28-2019, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by DunMunro View Post
I will watch this series when I get a chance.

Chernobyl was a disaster and yet the real disaster is that it turned the world towards almost unconstrained burning of fossil fuels , as nuclear is phased out with nothing else to replace it, and this planet will pay a far greater price for that than we would with a dozen Chernobyls. The current predictions are that we might see a 2 metre (6.5ft) rise in sea levels by 2100, and it will probably be worse than that. Picture the planet with 10-14 billion people and far less farmland than we have now.

Chernobyl marked the beginning of the end of rational thought and rational decision making. Far fewer people died from Chernobyl than on a typical airliner crash, and yet we all fly without a second thought, and no one contemplates banning air travel.
A dozen Chernobyl's? Unless that lava hit the coolant, then you'd have a good portion of northern Europe uninhabitable. Times twelve? Earth has been dealing with rising and falling sea levels since there were seas. We'll figure it out.
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post #65 of 184 Old 05-28-2019, 07:33 PM
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A glass half full kinda guy.

My garden this year is a disaster I wonder what I can do.

Like Al Gore said don't take my word for it turn on the news.

These are just my opinions.
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post #66 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 05:56 AM
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...turn on the news.
This is a pretty good resource too.

https://climate.nasa.gov/
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post #67 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 06:40 AM
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A dozen Chernobyl's? Unless that lava hit the coolant, then you'd have a good portion of northern Europe uninhabitable. Times twelve? Earth has been dealing with rising and falling sea levels since there were seas. We'll figure it out.
The last time the atmospheric concentration of CO2 was this high was 70 million years ago. Sea levels were 70 feet higher then than now.

Half the world's population lives within 5 miles of a coastline. These coastlines are going to gradually disappear over the next century or two.

"We'll figure it out" is a little too easy. The displacement of all those billions of people will re-shuffle the world order in ways that are impossible to predict. One thing is sure: it won't be pretty or peaceful.

We've been ignoring this problem for the last 50 years. During that time we had an opportunity to do something about it. That we didn't take it seriously (and many still don't) is perhaps the biggest preventable mistake mankind has ever made. At this point, we can no longer stop catastrophic climate change and massive sea level rise, but we can slow it down, give the science and technology a chance to help mitigate the damage.

But make no mistake, mitigating the damage from rising temperatures, CO2 levels, and sea level rise, not to mention the clean-up and repairs made necessary by increasing frequency of super-storms, not to mention dealing with the mass migration that will occur as coastal cities are abandoned, will be FAR, FAR greater than the incremental costs of moving quickly to phase out fossil fuels are, or would have been.
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post #68 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 06:48 AM
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^^^
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post #69 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 07:59 AM
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The last time the atmospheric concentration of CO2 was this high was 70 million years ago. Sea levels were 70 feet higher then than now.

Half the world's population lives within 5 miles of a coastline. These coastlines are going to gradually disappear over the next century or two.

"We'll figure it out" is a little too easy. The displacement of all those billions of people will re-shuffle the world order in ways that are impossible to predict. One thing is sure: it won't be pretty or peaceful.

We've been ignoring this problem for the last 50 years. During that time we had an opportunity to do something about it. That we didn't take it seriously (and many still don't) is perhaps the biggest preventable mistake mankind has ever made. At this point, we can no longer stop catastrophic climate change and massive sea level rise, but we can slow it down, give the science and technology a chance to help mitigate the damage.

But make no mistake, mitigating the damage from rising temperatures, CO2 levels, and sea level rise, not to mention the clean-up and repairs made necessary by increasing frequency of super-storms, not to mention dealing with the mass migration that will occur as coastal cities are abandoned, will be FAR, FAR greater than the incremental costs of moving quickly to phase out fossil fuels are, or would have been.


No, It IS that simple. We will figure it out. Slow it down? Go tell China and India too. They'll listen to you.

I wonder what concentration of Co2 has been generated by 20 years of Paul Revere's and Chicken Little's using oil based devices run by coal burning electricity to beat their drum of doom, but never actually doing anything?

Back on point, I'd rather take my chances surfing down Wilshire Boulevard with Snake Plissken than deal with a dozen Chernobyls.
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post #70 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 08:16 AM
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No, It IS that simple. We will figure it out. Slow it down? Go tell China and India too. They'll listen to you.

I wonder what concentration of Co2 has been generated by 20 years of Paul Revere's and Chicken Little's using oil based devices run by coal burning electricity to beat their drum of doom, but never actually doing anything?

Back on point, I'd rather take my chances surfing down Wilshire Boulevard with Snake Plissken than deal with a dozen Chernobyls.
So, to sum up... We're just going to "figure out" how to deal with rising sea levels that will create a forced migration of hundreds of millions of people from coastal areas all over the world? We're going to "figure out" how to deal with all the increasing fires, droughts, floods, superstorms, etc. brought about because of our collection inaction over the last half-century? 'K.

We should just ignore it and burn baby burn because... China & India? (China leads the world in solar energy R&D and production, an area we could have led in, but okay...) So that lets us off the hook? Don't even bother trying to reduce fossil fuel energy use? Because, hey, what's the use?

I have no idea what you're saying about "Paul Revere & Chicken Little" "not doing anything". Scientists started sounding the alarm 50 years ago when the data showing abnormal global temperature & CO2 rise, but the industrial strength denial machine ignored them, ridiculed them and any politicians who tried to get any traction in that area, and prevented anything from getting done. And here we are.

I suppose progress in this area can be summed up by, at least we're no longer denying its happening (well, some of us are), or that it's some kind of "liberal hoax". Now we've moved into the "Why worry now? We'll 'figure it out' phase."
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post #71 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 08:17 AM
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I think one of the problems is, other Countries that are coming into their own, figure "Hey, you folks in the USA did your thing, for a long time, without much regard to what might be the later issues .. so, now it's our time and we're going to do what we want to do in order to build our Economy .." ..

With Miami going to the point of raising street levels, the rise of sea levels is certainly real .. not to mention India, etc ..

https://www.miamirealestateguy.com/m...at-rising-sea/

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post #72 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 08:23 AM
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So, to sum up... We're just going to "figure out" how to deal with rising sea levels that will create a forced migration of hundreds of millions of people from coastal areas all over the world? We're going to "figure out" how to deal with all the increasing fires, droughts, floods, superstorms, etc. brought about because of our collection inaction over the last half-century? 'K.

We should just ignore it and burn baby burn because... China & India? (China leads the world in solar energy R&D and production, an area we could have led in, but okay...) So that lets us off the hook? Don't even bother trying to reduce fossil fuel energy use? Because, hey, what's the use?

I have no idea what you're saying about "Paul Revere & Chicken Little" "not doing anything". Scientists started sounding the alarm 50 years ago when the data showing abnormal global temperature & CO2 rise, but the industrial strength denial machine ignored them, ridiculed them and any politicians who tried to get any traction in that area, and prevented anything from getting done. And here we are.

I suppose progress in this area can be summed up by, at least we're no longer denying its happening, or that it's some kind of "liberal hoax". Now we've moved into the "Why worry now? We'll 'figure it out' phase."

Wow, four paragraphs of attributing statements that I never made. No wonder nothing ever gets done.
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post #73 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 08:28 AM
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I think one of the problems is, other Countries that are coming into their own, figure "Hey, you folks in the USA did your thing, for a long time, without much regard to what might be the later issues .. so, now it's our time and we're going to do what we want to do in order to build our Economy .." ..

With Miami going to the point of raising street levels, the rise of sea levels is certainly real .. not to mention India, etc ..

https://www.miamirealestateguy.com/m...at-rising-sea/
The thing is, if we had established a "Manhattan Project" level initiative to fast track R&D on alternative energy, put our best & brightest to work on the problem and gotten political buy-in from Washington and Big Energy, we might have come up with some breakthrough that could have allowed the whole world to transition from fossil fuels to clean energy by now.

Using solar energy to generate unlimited clean-burning hydrogen from the oceans, for one example. Who knows what we could have done? But the smart people who could have figured it out were shouted down by the rich people who feared a momentary pause in their profits, allied with politicians who saw a populist wedge issue they could exploit (and still are).

One way or the other, green energy is going to be the growth industry of the 21st century. It's going to be the economic engine of somebody's economy. Just not ours. And it's coming too late to stop the catastrophe anyways.

That was the "conservative/capitalist" argument for moving away from fossil fuels 4 decades ago. But that was ignored too.
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post #74 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 08:36 AM
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Wow, four paragraphs of attributing statements that I never made. No wonder nothing ever gets done.
I'm sorry, what did I miss? What exactly did you mean by the "Chicken Little" statement, for one example? That scientists shouldn't use electricity, or something? If you recognize the climate is changing rapidly and start sounding the alarm, you should just stop plugging in your computers and go back to the abacus? Walk or row everywhere instead of drive or fly? Honestly, it was a little hard to interpret. But waving it all away with "We'll figure it out" is kind of disingenuous, seems to me. That doesn't let the denial industry and those who supported it off the hook.

OTOH, as I said, that represents some improvement over "Nothing to see here; move along", I suppose. At least it acknowledges we're in trouble. So...progress!
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post #75 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 09:10 AM
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These are just my opinions.
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post #76 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 09:22 AM
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So about the actual show ...

I am really enjoying it so far. I find this fascinating and illuminating, and quite a bit chilling so far. Certainly the humbling power of nuclear energy is something I didn't understand very well, but am getting educated on quickly with this series.

It is amazing what keeping secrets about science can lead to for sure. In any case, this has been a well done show so far. Kudos!
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post #77 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 11:10 AM
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A dozen Chernobyl's? Unless that lava hit the coolant, then you'd have a good portion of northern Europe uninhabitable. Times twelve? Earth has been dealing with rising and falling sea levels since there were seas. We'll figure it out.
I am up to date on the series now. I hesitate to comment further because of the controversial nature of this debate.

Chernobyl (the HBO series) is a fictionalized account. That doomsday scenario was added for dramatic effect - yes it could have been much worse but you have take everything stated or implied with a grain of salt.

The Chernobyl disaster released about 400 times the radiation of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings, but in turn, this is only a tiny fraction of the radiation released during the period of atmospheric nuclear weapons testing which issued 100-1000 times as much radiation into the environment as Chernobyl.

However, the primary means of environmental radiation contamination was and is through burning of coal, which is also the primary means of environmental mercury contamination, not even mentioning CO2.

http://ecolo.org/documents/documents...gabbard-07.rtf

https://ourworldindata.org/what-is-t...form-of-energy

https://climate.nasa.gov/news/903/co...nuclear-power/

https://www.suzukielders.org/the-pro...r-versus-coal/

The phaseout of nuclear power is being accomplished via increased burning of fossil fuels, mainly coal not only in countries where nuclear is being shut down, but in countries where nuclear is no longer being planned:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekea.../#5065a6ea6220
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post #78 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 12:54 PM
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I am up to date on the series now. I hesitate to comment further because of the controversial nature of this debate.

Chernobyl (the HBO series) is a fictionalized account. That doomsday scenario was added for dramatic effect - yes it could have been much worse but you have take everything stated or implied with a grain of salt.

The Chernobyl disaster released about 400 times the radiation of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings, but in turn, this is only a tiny fraction of the radiation released during the period of atmospheric nuclear weapons testing which issued 100-1000 times as much radiation into the environment as Chernobyl.

However, the primary means of environmental radiation contamination was and is through burning of coal, which is also the primary means of environmental mercury contamination, not even mentioning CO2.
Spoiler!

Thanks, I didn't know that. I had heard they were running this pretty close to the real events. Below is the wiki chapter concerning the water danger.


Spoiler!



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster
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post #79 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 01:51 PM
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........ Scientists started sounding the alarm 50 years ago when the data showing abnormal global temperature & CO2 rise, but the industrial strength denial machine ignored them, ridiculed them and any politicians who tried to get any traction in that area, and prevented anything from getting done. And here we are....
Wow. I was in high school (almost) 50 years ago. I almost never ate lunch in the cafeteria. Instead, I spent much time in the school library.. mostly reading magazines. I recall article after article after article in big name magazines.. all predicting the new impending Ice Age that was coming. The earth is gonna do what the earth is gonna do. The cows are gonna fart when they wanna fart.

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post #80 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 02:58 PM
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Wow. I was in high school (almost) 50 years ago. I almost never ate lunch in the cafeteria. Instead, I spent much time in the school library.. mostly reading magazines. I recall article after article after article in big name magazines.. all predicting the new impending Ice Age that was coming. The earth is gonna do what the earth is gonna do. The cows are gonna fart when they wanna fart.
I think this whole thing about all these scientists predicting "another ice age was coming" was, and still is, overblown. According to climate data from ice core samples and archeological evidence, we were entering a gradual cooling cycle, but these natural cycles occur over time periods spanning tens or hundreds of thousands, even millions, of years. No new "ice age" was imminent. If the cycle held, it was literally thousands of years away, way too far off to affect humans in any conceivable way.

It wasn't really until the 1970's that enough new data had been accumulated on global temperature and CO2 readings to indicate something abnormal was happening, and that we were no longer in a gradual cooling phase. That's when virtually all the scientists who study climate & weather started getting onboard the global warming train.

I remember going to a lecture by Carl Sagan back around 1985 or so. He had been alarmed at what he saw as a sudden and drastic change in global temperatures and what that might mean. So he went on a nationwide speaking tour designed to help sound the alarm. He figured he could use his new celebrity status (from PBS's 'Cosmos') to help publicize what he saw as an existential threat to human life.

One of those stops was here in Charlotte at Queens College. I went with a couple of friends. We thought he was going to be talking about astronomy. Instead, he had all these temperature charts showing the cyclical changes over many millennia. And then, starting about 150 years ago when the industrial revolution kicked into high gear, everything started to change. And the temperature graph reversed, started to look like a hockey stick, going vertical.

It's not so much that the earth is warming; that's happened many times before. It's the sheer, blinding speed of it that matters this time. It's happening too fast for life - any life - to adapt. We're now entering the 6th Great Extinction. We might be on that list as well.

So we've known for decades we have been screwing up the climate by burning stored carbon and dumping literally trillions of tons of CO2 into the atmosphere. It's settled science at this point. You'd have to be pretty foolish not to think that wasn't going to have some sort of negative long term consequences. Foolish or blind, or mendacious (see: the big energy companies and their political allies). Anyway... those consequences? They're not centuries or even decades away. They're already here.
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post #81 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 03:08 PM
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Resistant to persistent radiation, constantly bombarding your cellular DNA and causing an abnormal number of mutations? I'm not sure evolution works like that.

That said, the return of wildlife to that area is remarkable. They need to do long term studies on the health of that wildlife, but I'm not sure how scientists can do that without endangering themselves.
Give it a couple of generations (which have already long since happened), and the more susceptible genes will have died out, and the less susceptible ones will have reproduced. Most of the area isn't very hot, and is safe for humans with a few basic protections, at least for a day here or there. There is a small area that's still pretty hot. The workers have, in fact, built the containment structure to go over the reactor, and have spent years a few hundred yards from it to do so, and then slid it in place into the hot area immediately near the reactor. There is a forest nearby that's pretty hot as well, due to the fallout pattern.

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Chernobyl marked the beginning of the end of rational thought and rational decision making. Far fewer people died from Chernobyl than on a typical airliner crash, and yet we all fly without a second thought, and no one contemplates banning air travel.
Meanwhile, we DRIVE on the roads, which are thousands of times more dangerous than flying, all the while spewing more CO2 into the atmosphere.

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The last time the atmospheric concentration of CO2 was this high was 70 million years ago. Sea levels were 70 feet higher then than now.

Half the world's population lives within 5 miles of a coastline. These coastlines are going to gradually disappear over the next century or two.

"We'll figure it out" is a little too easy. The displacement of all those billions of people will re-shuffle the world order in ways that are impossible to predict. One thing is sure: it won't be pretty or peaceful.
I don't think we can afford to let climate change continue as is, as we aren't ramping down CO2 and CH4 emissions nearly fast enough. We are going to have to geo-engineer the climate, which are going to have a lot of other unintended consequences, but less so than just letting it warm up. I predict by 2050, we are going to be pumping SO2 into the stratosphere in order to re-balance the climate.

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Back on point, I'd rather take my chances surfing down Wilshire Boulevard with Snake Plissken than deal with a dozen Chernobyls.
That is an extremely ignorant comment. For one, no one has built graphite-moderated RBMK reactors in a very, very long time, and the last RBMK will out of service in 2034. I wouldn't particularly want to live near one, but they have run safely since changes after Chernobyl, and there are none outside of the former USSR, so it's not something that is relevant to most of us here unless we have any friends from Russia on here.

Meanwhile, we have safe and clean nuclear reactor designs in the west that have never suffered a significant meltdown, other than TMI II where no one died. Meanwhile, climate change has already killed tens or hundreds of thousands or maybe even millions of people, and it will just continue to get worse the more CO2 we pump into the atmosphere. And to add to that, just a few years ago, coal power was kiling 25,000 people a year in the US due to air pollution, and there are still some coal plants operating that haven't been replaced by or converted to natural gas plants.

At the same time, aside from destroying the planet, we are losing clean energy leadership to China and other countries that are cranking up their wind and solar production like crazy, in addition to installing some nuclear power. We should be investing in clean power, we have all the technology we need, it's just a matter of putting a price on carbon. We allow polluters to keep dumping carbon into the atmosphere without paying for any of the externalities of doing so.

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The phaseout of nuclear power is being accomplished via increased burning of fossil fuels, mainly coal not only in countries were nuclear is being shut down, but in countries where nuclear is no longer being planned:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davekea.../#5065a6ea6220
And natural gas in the US, which, when you look at lifecycle emissions and other forms of pollution (like hydrofracking), is just about as dirty as coal, even though it locally burns much cleaner at the plant.
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post #82 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 03:12 PM
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^^^
It's why you should get your oceanfront property now in Denver Colorado.
Not just Denver. I think there will be a large population shift to the entire Colorado Plateau.
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Speaking of "hockey sticks", if you take all of Mann's data and randomized all of it except for one from a tree ring in Siberia, you always get a hockey stick.

Ask Al Gore why solar activity (sun spots) correlates with temperatures?
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post #84 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by grittree View Post
Speaking of "hockey sticks", if you take all of Mann's data and randomized all of it except for one from a tree ring in Siberia, you always get a hockey stick.

Ask Al Gore why solar activity (sun spots) correlates with temperatures?
Ah, keeping up with the denialists' favorite conspiracy theories, I see. Once again, anthropocentric climate change is no longer in doubt. It is settled science, and has been for some time. Stuff like this is designed and intended to obfuscate the issue by pretending there is some "science" (aka pseudoscience) that refutes everything we have learned and can prove with measurable data and concrete observations about what is happening now.
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post #85 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 04:02 PM
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What is "anthropocentric climate change"?



Instead of throwing out talking points, why not investigate and show what I said was wrong?
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post #86 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 06:06 PM
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That is an extremely ignorant comment. For one, no one has built graphite-moderated RBMK reactors in a very, very long time, and the last RBMK will out of service in 2034. I wouldn't particularly want to live near one, but they have run safely since changes after Chernobyl, and there are none outside of the former USSR, so it's not something that is relevant to most of us here unless we have any friends from Russia on here.


I was responding directly to this -

"and this planet will pay a far greater price for that than we would with a dozen Chernobyls."

Which assumed there would be 12 similar Chernobyl incidents. Context please. I'd say your comment was ignorant too, but it was probably just disingenuous, which of course is much worse.



And no love for the Snake Plissken reference? What's wrong with you people?
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post #87 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 06:39 PM
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Extremely ignorant comment?

https://tenor.com/view/quick-sand-quicksand-gif-5139670


These are just my opinions.
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post #88 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 08:20 PM
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Damn, that rooftop scene in ep. 4 had to be the most intense 90 seconds captured on film!
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post #89 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 10:01 PM
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I was more moved by the puppies but the roof scene was intense.
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Afro GT
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post #90 of 184 Old 05-29-2019, 11:05 PM
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Resistant to persistent radiation, constantly bombarding your cellular DNA and causing an abnormal number of mutations? I'm not sure evolution works like that.



That said, the return of wildlife to that area is remarkable. They need to do long term studies on the health of that wildlife, but I'm not sure how scientists can do that without endangering themselves.
I guess it goes to show how detrimental humans are to wildlife, that even replacing us with radiation lets animals strive.
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