Chernobyl mini-series on HBO - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 186 Old 05-30-2019, 06:22 AM
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I tend to fall back on this maxim as these debates rage: Say human activity has absolutely no impact on climate. All this glacial decline and all these super storms and dead coral reefs are totally normal, and this would have been happening even if humans/industrialization had never been a thing. I definitely do not believe that, but assume it for a second. Does anyone actually disagree that polluting the air and water is bad? I live in a former cancer cluster because of what a DuPont munitions factory dumped into a nearby stream back in the WWI/II era. DuPont's reckless practices killed people. That is a documented truth. We need the ozone layer. That's a documented truth. Better air quality lowers childhood asthma. That's a documented truth. Throw climate out the window. How about people's health here and now?

Two birds, one stone as far as I'm concerned. Also, the folks at NASA are pretty smart last time I checked, or is that some deep state conspiracy?
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post #92 of 186 Old 05-30-2019, 07:08 AM
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I tend to fall back on this maxim as these debates rage: Say human activity has absolutely no impact on climate. All this glacial decline and all these super storms and dead coral reefs are totally normal, and this would have been happening even if humans/industrialization had never been a thing. I definitely do not believe that, but assume it for a second. Does anyone actually disagree that polluting the air and water is bad? I live in a former cancer cluster because of what a DuPont munitions factory dumped into a nearby stream back in the WWI/II era. DuPont's reckless practices killed people. That is a documented truth. We need the ozone layer. That's a documented truth. Better air quality lowers childhood asthma. That's a documented truth. Throw climate out the window. How about people's health here and now?

Two birds, one stone as far as I'm concerned. Also, the folks at NASA are pretty smart last time I checked, or is that some deep state conspiracy?
Absolutely true. The denial of climate change (formerly known as global warming) never made any sense to me, on any level. We have data. We have observations. We have science. We have near uniform consensus among scientists who spend their lives studying climate that it is changing rapidly and in an unprecedented fashion, and that human activities are the primary driver of that change.

The denial industry was started by the big energy companies because they saw their future profits threatened by a shift to clean energy. They ginned up a propaganda campaign very similar in form, function, structure and tone to the campaigns created to battle Medicare in the 60's (it will turn America socialist and destroy us all!) and the link between smoking and cancer in the 70's. Hell, they even used some of the same ad agencies (true!).

Then it became a political issue, with sides lining up along the usual divisions. Once it became part of your political ethos to deny climate change along with all the other planks of your tribe's platform, then it left the realm of science and reality altogether and became just another political football. If you believe "A", then you have to believe "B" because that's what the tribe believes.

None of it makes any sense. Tom Friedman wrote a column years ago that gave the conservative/capitalist argument for accepting the scientific consensus behind climate change. Which was, even if you've convinced yourself it's all a big hoax perpetuated by scientists who are willing to lie about their life's work so they can live large on government research grants (insane for several reasons, but you hear that argument all the time), it makes perfect economic sense to try and be the country that leads the world in clean energy development and production. That will be the only industry that has the kind of economic scaling that can provide plenty of money to be made and create lots of good, high-paying jobs in the decades to come. And it will probably be the same big energy companies that have created the denial industry that will lead that effort, as they have the resources and infrastructure to lead the transition. They aren't thinking long-term; nobody does anymore.

And besides, there is no downside to making the environment healthier and improving people's lives. Even if the climate were not changing, that's just a sound political and economic direction to take the country in. None of this decades long battle against science and reality has made a lick of sense. And here we are.
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post #93 of 186 Old 05-30-2019, 07:29 AM
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Damn, that rooftop scene in ep. 4 had to be the most intense 90 seconds captured on film!
I was crawling out of my skin!



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I was more moved by the puppies but the roof scene was intense.

Pet Patrol was miserable. The whole situation was so wrong, so unnatural. Brr. All the actors did a good job, but I really liked the older soldier.
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post #94 of 186 Old 05-30-2019, 07:34 AM
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Sci/Discovery channel's Extreme Engineering has an hour long show about the construction of the New Safe Containment. I caught it last night, pretty interesting.



https://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/extreme-engineering/
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post #95 of 186 Old 05-30-2019, 08:32 AM
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I found this to be an interesting analysis and breakdown of the the program. The authors' use of the word "masterful" to describe the overall production was highly accurate in my view. Good read.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-r...-to-your-brain
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post #96 of 186 Old 05-30-2019, 09:15 AM
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Didn't know that Jared Harris, the scientist, is the son of Richard Harris. They don't seem quite like they are cut from the same cloth, so to speak.
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post #97 of 186 Old 05-30-2019, 09:16 AM
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.... And besides, there is no downside . . .
Well... maybe sometimes there is..

To anyone interested in a Google Chromebox or Chromebook..
Be aware that these boxes run a variant of Linux and DO NOT support HDCP!!!
This means no support for HD on most streaming services. I wish I would have known this beforehand....

Blu-rays & DVD's
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post #98 of 186 Old 05-30-2019, 12:25 PM
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Didn't know that Jared Harris, the scientist, is the son of Richard Harris. They don't seem quite like they are cut from the same cloth, so to speak.
Early photo of Richard. I can see it. Richard looked a LOT different as he got older.




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post #99 of 186 Old 05-30-2019, 12:54 PM
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I've already extended my one month subscription to HBO Now (to watch GoT) another month to finish s.2 of The Deuce and to watch s.3 of True Detective and maybe Sharp Objects. It looks like I'll be adding Chernobyl to the list as well. I'm certainly getting my money's worth, having also already watched several documentaries and 2018 theatrical release movies for the price of one movie theater ticket.
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post #100 of 186 Old 05-30-2019, 01:19 PM
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Anyone watching Gentleman Jack?


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post #101 of 186 Old 05-30-2019, 01:22 PM
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Not Chernobyl, but interesting easy to understand vid of the Fukushima Daiichi meltdown. Mistakes were made.

2300c meltdown temp. That's about twice what a carbon steel forge runs at. That's hot.





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post #102 of 186 Old 05-30-2019, 01:59 PM
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Also interesting. Give some info on the differences between the junk reactors of Chernobyl and properly designed modern ones.


Prof. Richard Muller explains nuclear meltdown and Chernobyl

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post #103 of 186 Old 05-30-2019, 02:34 PM
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Also interesting. Give some info on the differences between the junk reactors of Chernobyl and properly designed modern ones.


Prof. Richard Muller explains nuclear meltdown and Chernobyl

https://youtu.be/UeVIzHEh7a4
Muller's death numbers are not supported by WHO health science studies:

https://www.who.int/ionizing_radiati...th-effects/en/

However, if we look at the disruption in people's lives and, for example, women in Europe who gave away to fear and aborted healthy fetus's, then we can get numbers comparable to Muller's.
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post #104 of 186 Old 05-30-2019, 02:46 PM
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Muller's death numbers are not supported by WHO health science studies:

https://www.who.int/ionizing_radiati...th-effects/en/

However, if we look at the disruption in people's lives and, for example, women in Europe who gave away to fear and aborted healthy fetus's, then we can get numbers comparable to Muller's.
Yeah I was more interested in his breakdown of the containment capabilities of the modern reactors. Big difference in those. Those Soviet reactors were the proverbial accident waiting to happen.
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post #105 of 186 Old 05-30-2019, 03:06 PM
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I was responding directly to this -

"and this planet will pay a far greater price for that than we would with a dozen Chernobyls."

Which assumed there would be 12 similar Chernobyl incidents. Context please. I'd say your comment was ignorant too, but it was probably just disingenuous, which of course is much worse.
Global warming is far worse than 12 Chernobyls. Except that there can't be 12 more Chernobyls, as there are only 10 RBMKs left, so even if every one of them blew up tomorrow, there would be 10 reactors that blew up, at 3 sites, so that's basically 3 Chernobyls.
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post #106 of 186 Old 05-30-2019, 03:43 PM
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Yeah I was more interested in his breakdown of the containment capabilities of the modern reactors. Big difference in those. Those Soviet reactors were the proverbial accident waiting to happen.
This lecture compares a number of reactor designs:


including the RMBK (at 21:30).

and this one looks at TMI, Chernobyl, and Fukushima:

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post #107 of 186 Old 05-30-2019, 06:02 PM
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Here's the installment of ABC News' Nightline with Ted Koppel that had a lot of people in the U.S. very worried the next day:

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Don't fear the Reaper. Fear the Repack!

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post #108 of 186 Old 05-30-2019, 08:08 PM
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The show opened with a very ominous sign.

After 3 episodes, I've gotten a lot more respect for miners, regardless of nationality. They could handle the truth.

I recalled in the 50's how we were brainwashed into hiding in the basement during atomic/nuclear strike drills. All governments/politicians could do a much better job of lying than scientists.

So what are the lessons learned here, before lessons forgotten? This is a great relief after the GOT series, a different kind of of political thrillers/horror show, reminding me of S08E05 the burning of King's Landing.
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post #109 of 186 Old 06-03-2019, 02:00 PM
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It looks like HBO will re-air the entire 5-episode run on Saturday, June 15, 2019 (12 days from this posting) on HBO2, starting at 1pm Pacific.

My very humble setup:
Spoiler!
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post #110 of 186 Old 06-03-2019, 02:04 PM
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It looks like HBO will re-air the entire 5-episode run on Saturday, June 15, 2019 (12 days from this posting) on HBO2, starting at 1pm Pacific.
And who cares? You do realize HBO Go exists, right?
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post #111 of 186 Old 06-03-2019, 11:00 PM
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An excellent end to this series. It would not surprise me to see this get multiple nominations.
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post #112 of 186 Old 06-04-2019, 03:52 AM
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And who cares? You do realize HBO Go exists, right?
I don't even DVR hbo shows anymore. Just watch HBO GO instead. Better picture and sound.

Enjoyed the finale, especially the detail of how the reactor blew.
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post #113 of 186 Old 06-04-2019, 04:03 AM
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Only 31 dead according to the Russians
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post #114 of 186 Old 06-04-2019, 04:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Chernobyl creator Craig Mazin reflects on the powerful finale and 'the cost of lies'


A just world is a sane world, and there was nothing sane about Chernobyl,” Valery Legasov tells us in the opening moments of HBO and Sky’s haunting miniseries Chernobyl.
And indeed, this is shown over and over again over the course of the show’s five episodes, as the fallout from the infamous 1986 disaster at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant near the town of Pripyat in Soviet Ukraine plays out in excruciating detail, as seen through the eyes of the real-life figures called in to respond to the catastrophe.



From Legasov (Jared Harris), a Soviet nuclear physicist, and Soviet Deputy Prime Minister Boris Shcherbina (Stellan Skarsgard), to Emily Watson’s fictional scientist Ulana Khomyuk — and the countless firefighters, military personnel, nurses, doctors, and civilians whose lives were forever changed — Chernobyl depicts the rarely sane ways in which the Soviet Union handled the disaster, and it poses a still-urgent question: What are the costs of lies?


In the finale, which aired Sunday night, we finally return to April 26, 1986, the fateful night of the disaster. This time, however, armed with Legasov’s testimony at the trial of those deemed responsible for the accident, we see a minute-by-minute account of the moments and doomed decisions leading up to the explosion. A devastating epilogue tells us more about the lasting effects of Chernobyl, and the ultimate fates of our characters.


Chernobyl creator, executive producer, and writer Craig Mazin spoke with EW about the contemporary relevance of a decades-old disaster, the plot point that was the most heartbreaking to craft, and a surprising unscripted moment in the finale (hint: it involves a caterpillar).


ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: With a project like Chernobyl, how do you make an event that happened decades ago seem so relevant now?
CRAIG MAZIN: Well, you can’t always. I mean, in some sense I think some things that happened a long time ago aren’t particularly relevant for now, but this one I think couldn’t be more so. It’s about the cost of lies. It’s about what happens when a culture and a government and a people begin to lose touch with the importance of the truth, and when that happens, there are costs. You may be able to get away with it for a while, but sooner or later it’s going to get you, and we are all of us right now living through a time when the truth is being manipulated and distorted and almost made fun of. The idea of truth is being laughed at. And that’s what Chernobyl is about, it’s about the cost of that, because it’s real.




The show tackles so many different, truly heartbreaking stories, but was there one in particular that you found more difficult to conceive?
The hardest one to write, the one that hurt me the most, was that of Lyudmilla Ignatenko and her husband, Vasily Ignatenko [who was one of the first firefighters on the scene the night of the disaster], because it’s just so endlessly heartbreaking. The character of Lyudmilla that’s portrayed by Jessie Buckley — this is a beautiful person. This is a person that’s overwhelmed by love, and because she’s overwhelmed by love and because she could not imagine not standing by this person that she had kind of thrown her whole life into, she did things that were not smart and were dangerous and came at their own cost, and yet they were understandable. She wasn’t stupid, she was just overwhelmed, and I just thought that was the most human thing possible. And my job was to portray that in a way that didn’t feel like I was nudging it too far one way or the other, but just letting people see it for what it was and hoping that they get it. I had the advantage of the most incredible performance from Jessie Buckley, but also from Adam Nagaitis, who portrayed her husband so beautifully.


Was there anything you wanted to tackle but didn’t? Anything that was too bleak?
Episode 4 is a tough one. The scenes with the liquidators and the dogs was really hard for a lot of people to watch, and that story actually got worse [in real life]. And it was a first-person story, I was not making it up. This is an account that somebody told in Svetlana Alexievich’s book Voices From Chernobyl. We shot it, but it was just too much. It felt abusive, and there’s a really weird line between “No, you need to look at this and see this and know that it happened” and [taking it too far] — and the line is different for different people. I’m just grateful that it seemed like after episode 4 aired, for most people, we got it right. For a few people we did not. If we had done this other thing, I think a lot of people would have just been like, “You know what, no, now you’re just being mean.”


Most of the characters on this show were real people, but notably Emily Watson’s character was not. Was it more difficult to write for her character or the ones based on real people?
I actually think it was more liberating to not be accountable to a real human being. With [Legasov] and with [Shcherbina], I obviously had to dramatize these people and put them in places that occasionally they weren’t, or say things that nobody would know if they said or not, but I felt accountable to my understanding of who they were, and what they were going through, and what happened to them. So there were guidelines there that I did not want to violate. With Emily’s character, I was able to create somebody that served many purposes and was therefore accountable to a lot of different truths and facts, and that was helpful. Also, whether people know it or not, she is doing a little bit of what they’re doing at home watching, which is saying, “Are you serious? What are you doing? Stop doing that, do this.” There’s a certain indomitable morality to her, and it’s a hard character for someone to play unless you’re Emily Watson, and then it’s not hard because you’re amazing.


The three leads noticeably do not speak with any sort of Russian accent. Were there any discussions about that?
This was obviously a big discussion: What do we do about these accents? Because the scope of the show is rather large, we ended up with about 100 different speaking roles, which is a lot for a show. And, look, I speak English, our director [Johan Renck] speaks Swedish and English, we had people from all over Europe. One option was, let’s just shoot with a cast made of Russians and Ukrainians, but the problem is there’s a huge language barrier. And honestly, I’m not sure HBO and Sky would have given us the budget — there are just some practicalities [involved]. So then the question is, if you have people who are European, should they speak in a Russian accent? What we found really quickly was that all I’m now seeing is people putting on accents, they’re faking stuff. And the acting starts going all into the accent, and I’m losing those moments that feel legitimately real. There’s an ease and simplicity to it that’s not there anymore, it’s stilted.


And then just logically speaking, Soviet citizens didn’t speak English with Russian accents. They spoke Russian, so what are we even doing? It doesn’t make it more accurate to have them speak it with a Russian accent. Someone asked this at the TCAs and I gave this same very long answer, and when I was done Stellan just looked up and said, “Hamlet wasn’t in Danish.” [Laughs]

Much like the first episode, a good chunk of the finale takes place back in the control room the night of the disaster. Did you know when you started the series that you’d end up back there?
My hope and my intention was that people would experience the tragedy of what Chernobyl was in every regard: a scientific tragedy, a political tragedy, an emotional and personal tragedy, all of that. Just really feel what it did to an entire country and people, and then say, “Okay, now that you know all of that, let’s see how it actually happened, because this is how we learn to keep it from happening again.” And when I say “it,” I don’t mean a nuclear reactor exploding, I mean a tragedy caused by lies and neglect. And there’s an additional factor that I wanted to introduce which was, for most of those men in that control room, they were innocent, and I think it’s important for people to know that. They just didn’t know. Even the villain in the room to some extent was kind of innocent, and that’s kind of a shocking thing. And so it’s all about kind of driving home for the people watching that this is, we are all of us, every day of our lives, in a control room facing choices, and we’re being asked to consider, well, if something bad happens, in this case one theory is why worry about something that isn’t going to happen? And another theory is, how about we do worry about it because it might happen? And that’s prudent, and we should do that.


The final scene between Legasov and Shcherbina was surprisingly tender. Why was it important to give them that moment?
So, Stellan’s character, I put quite a bit on there. I can’t necessarily say that the real Boris Shcherbina had a kind of slow-motion conversion, but it seemed to me that this was a period in time in the Soviet Union where the people who were very close to power must have felt in their bones that it was all falling apart. Because for instance, in that scene, it was 1987 and in four years the Soviet Union wouldn’t exist. And for someone like Shcherbina who had gone through Chernobyl, I think he must have realized that “My religion is not correct, and what I’ve done was not correct,” and there has to be an enormous regret to that. And what I wanted, in a very human way, was for Legasov to say that’s not how this works. How this works is, we do what we can to survive, but then there are moments where we have choices to make, and those are the moments that define us. And the moment, as far as I’m concerned, that defined Boris Shcherbina were the good decisions he made in the aftermath of the bad decisions that he made. And I think that’s beautiful and really important to see in these stories, that there is opportunity for redemption and growth and hope.


In that same scene, there is also a caterpillar…
The caterpillar was a cameo. Johan was shooting the scene and the caterpillar just happened to be there. There was no CGI there, there was no stunt caterpillar. Stellan just started to play around with the idea that, you know what, after all this sh— that we’ve done, after all the ruin we’ve visited upon this planet, there’s still hope — there’s a little caterpillar, life will continue, and let’s try not to do this again.



Do you think we’ve learned from Chernobyl?
I think what we’re struggling with now is something worse. The planet is heating, the climate is changing. We know this. We have not just one scientist or two, but thousands screaming this at us at the top of their lungs. And we have a government full of disinterested, stubborn people who are going to cling to their denial and their nonsense. And that’s where we are. Like I said, we are in the control room right now, and there is time, but it’s running out. If there’s something that people take away from this, I hope it’s not “blah, communism is bad.” Yes, communism is bad, correct. The Soviet system is terrible, correct. That ended in 1991, here is what is going on right now in our country and every country. This is what we should be demanding of our politicians: a willingness to just deal with the truth and let their narratives go. Easier said than done, it would seem. So I’m forever hopeful, I can’t stop being hopeful — but I am forever concerned.


https://ew.com/tv/2019/06/03/chernob...ale-interview/
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post #115 of 186 Old 06-04-2019, 06:57 AM
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Best line:

Why worry about something that isn't going to happen?

That's perfect they should put that on are money.

These are just my opinions.
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post #116 of 186 Old 06-04-2019, 07:57 AM
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Some well deserved Emmy buzz ..

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/04/enter...ale/index.html

Stellan Skarsgård and Emily Watson deserve some attention, IMO, as well ..
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post #117 of 186 Old 06-04-2019, 08:29 AM
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“Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter.”

Fun fact: the Russian translation for “Wormwood” is “Chernobyl”.
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post #118 of 186 Old 06-04-2019, 08:56 AM
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Damn fine show. Every episode held up.
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post #119 of 186 Old 06-04-2019, 11:11 AM
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I immensely enjoyed this series but I was really dismayed at how it used "Soviet style" disinformation to further the story. A couple of examples (Taken from the Times of London article: How accurate is the Chernobyl TV show? Our expert sorts fact from fiction


This one really gets me as it is just plain wrong:

Quote:
What happened to the people on the bridge of death?

It is widely considered to be a grisly urban myth that residents crowded on to the railway bridge to watch the flames and weird light thrown up from the plant — in the series they are seen watching en famille, as though at a fireworks display, and then all died. Certainly the authorities deny it. There is no evidence of this, but the myth persists. Given that some people who were on site, and even in the control room, survived, it is unlikely that everyone on a distant bridge would have died.


Another example:

Quote:
Legasov was a mild-mannered scientist, brought to Chernobyl to manage the disaster. He was a model Soviet man, joining the Communist Party at an early age, but the show portrays him as a maverick — albeit a respectful and mannerly one.

Did he attend the trial?

Legasov enters full maverick mode in the final episode, in which the trial takes place and delivers a passionate speech, in what one TV critic called “a courtroom apotheosis out of

To Kill a Mockingbird

”. Stirring TV, but not true. Legasov did not attend the trial. According to Serhii Plokhy’s recent book about Chernobyl, Legasov was in a Moscow hospital at this time, where he attempted suicide.

However, Legasov did deliver a barnstorming speech at a conference of the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna in August 1986. According to Plokhy, Legasov spoke for more than four hours and with huge courage “blew open much of the carefully designed shield of secrecy covering the Soviet nuclear programmes”. The audience was “stunned” and gave him a standing ovation, so we can assume that the writers have taken his Vienna speech and switched it to a courtroom in Chernobyl.
Another example:
Quote:
Was Viktor Bryukhanov, the plant’s director, as careless as he appears?

One of the most maddeningly obstinate characters is Bryukhanov (Con O’Neill), who is portrayed as shifty, careless and cold, but in reality he was dedicated to the plant and keenly aware of its various safety problems. In the weeks before the disaster, for example, he knew it was leaking radioactive water, but was unable to take the necessary action to repair it because he was trapped in the monolithic Soviet hierarchy. Fixing those leaks would require the plant to be shut, something unthinkable to the local party bosses stubbornly set on meeting energy quotas to please their superiors in Moscow.

Bryukhanov would need to be a dauntless hero — or an alarmist! — to have dared to suggest such action, so he tried to issue warnings in more subtle ways, such as complaining that his budget was being raided by city bosses demanding extra cash so they might build sports stadiums, ice rinks and swimming pools in the new city of Pripyat, the Soviet Union’s latest “atomgrad”, built to house the nuclear workers.

Worried about the constant diversion of precious funds towards vanity projects, he told a journalist: “God forbid that we suffer any serious mishap. I’m afraid that not only Ukraine, but the union as a whole would not be able to deal with such a disaster.”

Bryukhanov was apprehensive, as were the KGB, which was also finding flaws at the plant. It noted that the wrong type of crushed stone had been delivered to make concrete. The particles of stone were too large, so it could not fill tight spaces, leaving dangerous gaps in the construction. It warned Moscow of “accident-threatening situations, including the possibility of human losses”. No response came.

If the KGB’s warnings were ignored, what chance did Bryukhanov have? He cared passionately about the plant and its town, even selecting the roses for the broad, fresh streets. The disaster provoked torment. He refused a lawyer when he was arrested, and even demanded to be shot by his KGB captors. This does not match the shifty little man on screen. There was a sad nobility to Bryukhanov, but perhaps the narrative of TV drama only permits one noble hero, and that role was given to Valery Legasov (Jared Harris).

The Chernobyl disaster was bad enough, so there was and is no reason to embellish the story with blatant falsehoods. In the final analysis we must remember that this 5 part series is a fictional story "inspired by actual events", which is truly a shame as truth is often stranger than fiction and far more compelling. The are parallels between Chernobyl, TMI, and Fukushima as in each case engineering flaws, economics and operator errors combine to make a disaster, but in each case the truth, rather than a more compelling lie, should be told, IMHO.
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post #120 of 186 Old 06-04-2019, 11:26 AM
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Kudos to the U.K.'s Sky TV, the producer of (and HBO's partner in) this, one of the very best docu-dramas, ever. Their attention to detail in this project, and the cast, were absolutely superb! R.I.P. to those who suffered and had their lives cut short by this tragic example of man's arrogant stupidity in his quest to "harness the atom," as a quaint 1950s Walt Disney science documentary put it.

Some folks may claim otherwise, but this disaster truly played a large part in the end of the Soviet Union government, which actually had been "circling the drain" for three decades since the invasion of Hungary in 1956. And consider this: prior to the Chernobyl accident, there had been other "serious" incidents involving Nuclear technology in the former U.S.S.R. and in the world's oceans, most of the details of which have remained secret. One of these appear to involve a device that unexpectedly "went critical" at a nuke weapons facility and resulted in something like 30 villages being erased from official maps.

As Russian comic Yakov Smirnoff used to joke: "what's the difference between the Lada (Soviet automobile) and the Soviet Union?...at least the Lada moves forward sometimes."
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