TNF on NFLN in 4k HDR (Produced by Fox Sports) - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 542 Old 09-25-2019, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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TNF on NFLN in 4k HDR (Produced by Fox Sports)

For all PQ comments, be sure to include the service and/or hardware you're using to view the game, e.g. DirecTV (or D*), Fox Sports App via Roku Ultra, etc. Be as specific as you can.

These are NFL Network-owned games for which Fox Sports has purchased simulcasting rights, not to be confused with FOX's Sunday NFL games, which are the exclusive property of the FOX broadcast network and its affiliates.

The games are being produced in 1080p HDR and upconverted to 4K/HDR

From Fox Sports:
Quote:
FOX Sports is delivering Thursday Night Football in 4K Ultra High Definition (UHD) for the 2019 NFL season, making Thursday night match-ups available through the FOX Sports and FOX NOW apps, via Apple TV 4K and select Roku devices. In addition, the 4K broadcast is available through several FOX Sports distributors, including DIRECTV, Altice Optimum, Comcast Xfinity, Verizon Fios, TVision and fuboTV.

Specific Roku devices with 4K support include Roku Premiere, Roku Premiere+, Roku Streaming Stick+, Roku Ultra, 4K TV models with Roku OS built in.

NFL Network exclusive games will be available through NFL digital properties and on mobile via Yahoo Sports and other Verizon Media properties. FOX Thursday Night Football games will be available to stream on Amazon via Prime Video and Twitch in addition to NFL, FOX and FOX Deportes digital properties across devices.(NFL Network, Amazon Prime Video and Twitch simulcast subject to change)
To jump to the discussion of a specific broadcast, click the highlighted games below:
26-Sep | Philadelphia Eagles @ Green Bay Packers
3-Oct | Los Angeles Rams @ Seattle Seahawks
10-Oct | New York Giants @ New England Patriots
17-Oct | Kansas City Chiefs @ Denver Broncos
24-Oct |Washington Redskins @ Minnesota Vikings
31-Oct |San Francisco 49ers @ Arizona Cardinals
7-Nov | Los Angeles Chargers @ Oakland Raiders
14-Nov | Pittsburgh Steelers @ Cleveland Browns
21-Nov| Indianapolis Colts @ Houston Texans

5-Dec | Dallas Cowboys @ Chicago Bears
12-Dec | New York Jets @ Baltimore Ravens

Thanks @dtv757 for contributions to this post.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.

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post #2 of 542 Old 09-26-2019, 05:18 AM
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Will the Amazon app be the best way to stream this game in 4K on a Samsung tv?
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post #3 of 542 Old 09-26-2019, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by CLTQ90 View Post
Will the Amazon app be the best way to stream this game in 4K on a Samsung tv?
Don't think it's available on amazon. For streaming you're gonna need a 4k roku or apple tv and watch through the fox sports app.

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post #4 of 542 Old 09-26-2019, 06:03 AM
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My Roku still isn't showing I can watch it in 4k through the Fox Sports app. All it shows for me is where my local Fox station has the game in the listings.
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post #5 of 542 Old 09-26-2019, 07:19 AM
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why 1080p HDR?...NFL Network/FOX should have some 4K cameras lying around
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post #6 of 542 Old 09-26-2019, 08:34 AM
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This thing sounds kind of hoaky. 1080p up-converted, really. My TV does the same thing.
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post #7 of 542 Old 09-26-2019, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by John9999 View Post
This thing sounds kind of hoaky. 1080p up-converted, really. My TV does the same thing.
It's disappointing for sure, but it's a start. 1080p with HDR is still a huge difference over the bit starved, 720p SDR we usually have to watch these games in. I look at the "4K" tag as just marketing speak.

Also, your tv is not doing the same thing in relation to the NFL games. Your tv is taking 720p (or 720p ->1080i depending on your STB) and up converting that to 4K.
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Verge has an interview on the production of tonight's game in HDR: https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/26/2...ball-streaming


[MOD: Complete article below from HOTP]
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TV Sports/Technology Notes (Q&A)
Inside the first-ever NFL broadcast in 4K HDR
By Nilay Patel and Chris Welch, TheVerge.com - Sep. 26, 2019

Fox Sports is distributing Thursday Night Football in 4K HDR for the rest of the season, which means September 26th’s matchup between the Green Bay Packers and the Philadelphia Eagles marks the first time an NFL game will be delivered in ultra high definition. It’s a big day for Fox Sports, which has been testing and preparing its 4K HDR distribution system for several weeks dating back to the preseason. Tonight marks the first time that system will be put to the test, and it’s during a national prime-time game between two very popular teams. And Fox Sports tells us that some MLB postseason games will also be in 4K HDR, so there’s a lot more to come from other sports as well.

It’s an exciting step forward for live sports in the US, but the press release came with a caveat: the game will still be produced in 1080p HDR and get upscaled to 4K for delivery. That’s because the broadcast equipment needed to produce an entire NFL game, especially the slow-motion systems, are still in 1080p, according to Mike Davies, SVP of field operations for Fox Sports.

“With 4K, I mean, you’re obviously talking about just a ton of pixels,” Davies told The Verge. “A lot of the broadcast equipment that does specialty things, like super-slow-motion and replay and those types of things, are technically possible in 4K. But at the volume that we have for a Thursday Night Football game, which is upwards of 40 cameras, you just can’t pack that in yet in terms of a 4K broadcast. So we do the next best thing, which is 1080p HDR. And we concentrate on the [HDR] color space, which is really pretty cool. And we do that so that we don’t compromise most of the audience who’s watching, which is going to be the good old 720p broadcast.”

We sat down with Davies to talk about how Fox Sports is producing the first NFL game in 4K HDR, why HDR is a harder problem than 4K itself, and how he thinks the future of 4K HDR formats is going to shake out.

This interview has been lightly edited for clarity.

On the equipment Fox Sports needs to produce the game in 4K HDR:
A lot of the broadcast stuff that’s available today can do exactly what it normally does in 4K SDR, but there’s a lot of equipment that doesn’t, and one of the big ones is super motion. Some broadcasters will say that they’re broadcasting everything in 4K, and that may be true. But when you get to the replay part, they might be upscaling their entire replay apparatus, or a good portion of their cameras are actually upscaled at the truck.

So we do actually have a few 4K cameras here. And we use them mainly for what we call “zoom crop” — basically shooting a very wide field of view and then using downscaling technology to magnify areas of interest. But our eight super motion cameras, these cameras that go anywhere from 4-6-8 times [slower], that stuff just doesn’t work in 4K yet. They do have high-speed 4K cameras, but the workflow is such that it would actually be a detriment to the final product if you went and did it all in 4K.

What happens is that we capture everything right at the camera heads at 1080p HDR, and then we produce the whole show as we have actually since the Miami preseason game. We do that all in 1080p HDR. And then do two things to it: number one, we upscale it to 4K for the 4K distributors, and then we have to downscale it for the wider audience to good old 720p SDR.

On what you can expect to see with the game in 4K HDR:
Yes. Unlike just rote upconversion and downconversion where it’s just really a function of mathematics, [HDR] is a function of subjective authoring in terms of what the colors look like. Yes, you get the bigger color space, but, ultimately, it’s up to the beholder to say whether it looks good or not. And that has to do with lookup tables and other types of conversions that end up making the color true on both sides. Frankly, it’s a pain in the butt.

And then you’ve got to make sure that you’re serving two masters equally: you’re serving the HDR realm with the best possible HDR color space, and that comes right from the folks that are operating video in the back of the truck here, and shading the cameras in high dynamic range. But when you’re doing that, you need to make sure that what’s translated for the wider audience in SDR isn’t messed up.

The hardest thing is actually the down conversions for everybody else. So when you’re feeding the stadium here at Lambeau [Field], they’re not taking HDR. When you’re feeding our partner here, the NFL Network, on their pregame show, they’re not taking HDR. So there’s a hell of a lot of conversion going on, not only from SDR to HDR, but actually, more importantly, from HDR to SDR.

And you’re looking at certain colors that are important. For instance, if you have a sponsor, and they’ve got a primary color of red [Ed note: obviously Verizon.], you want to make sure that that red looks the same in HDR and SDR. You don’t want to go in and start mucking around with the colors. You’ve got to actually do tests where you go from SDR to HDR and then back to SDR, and then make sure that all of the colors in those translations still remain true for both audiences.

So is the yellow line rendered in HDR?
The yellow line is in HDR. It needs to be. This was one of the things that would have been a different conversation last year. Some of the virtual stuff wasn’t ready, not only to go to 4K, but even 1080p. So a lot of times, we’d take some of the main cameras, and we’d have to downscale them to insert the stuff and then re-upscale them.

This year, we’ve been actually doing the shows in 1080p HDR for the past three games, even though it really hasn’t been going anywhere except for testing. So now that we’re here in Green Bay and people are going to see it in HDR, hopefully we’ll have a good experience.

On the brewing HDR format war between Dolby Vision, HDR10, and HLG:
Most of the broadcast equipment — particularly the Sony stuff, which is the cameras and a lot of the infrastructure that we use — they operate in HLG.

You know, it’s just going to be “4K HDR”, and then the only battle that needs to be waged is: okay, does Dolby Vision win or does HLG win? And to be honest, that’s kind of a thorny issue because the distribution formats are siding with [Dolby Vision and HDR10]. But you know, in production, especially live production, and maybe we’re a little bit more in this right now, it’s HLG. And that’s a battle of the vendors right now. You go talk to Sony, and they’re very into HLG.

So yeah, we deliver it in HLG. We’re in this interesting time where I can do [4K HDR] on the TV side and put it up and get it to a transmission point. And then, obviously, your 4K TV that’s able to do HDR is able to get it.

It’s sort of that bit in between that is getting sorted out right now.

What’s the thing you’re most excited to learn during the broadcast?
“The case for 4K HDR UHD versus SD to HD is a little bit harder to make.”

Doing the first one is going to teach us what the fans think. Can they tell the difference? Because I’ve been looking at it and, quite honestly, the case to be made for 4K HDR UHD versus SD to HD is a little bit harder to make. With HD, at least you could say the screens were bigger. With this, it takes a little bit more of a subtle eye to see it.

That’s really the challenge that I’m looking for because, frankly, in the technical realm, I’ve already done this three times.

What’s next for sports in 4K HDR?
If I were to say that what we’re doing in September 2019 is exactly the same thing that we’ll be doing in September 2020... the exciting and somewhat frustrating part is that I just don’t know. I’m trying to build facilities that can handle everything up to 4K, and we’re certainly keeping an eye on the manufacturers and super motion and that kind of thing.

You know, the Tesla that you buy today is not the same as the Tesla that you’ll have tomorrow because of software upgrades. And that’s now true of everything in these trucks. It didn’t use to be. So at least that gives us the ability to buy stuff that allows us to be flexible for the market.

So I think the answer to your question is that, last year, we did a hell of a lot less UHD than we do today. So I would imagine that, next year, we’ll be doing a lot more UHD than we did this year.

* * * *

The easiest way to watch Thursday Night Football in 4K is by streaming it with the Fox Sports app (not the Fox Sports Go app) on either the Apple TV 4K or a 4K-compatible Roku device. Fox Sports says these devices will get the game in HLG-format HDR, but you’ll only get stereo sound for now — the full 5.1 surround mix for streaming devices is “coming soon.” You’ll need to sign in with your cable, satellite, or streaming TV account credentials to be able to watch the game, and since Fox Sports accepts logins from Sling TV, YouTube TV, and so on, it should be simple to get access if you’re paying for any virtually any TV service.

Fox Sports is also directly serving a 4K HDR feed to several cable and satellite partners, which will show the game in HLG HDR with a 5.1 surround mix if you have the right box or a newer TiVo with 4K support:

--Comcast Xfinity with an X1 box: say “4K” into your Voice Remote, go to Sports, and select NFL on the guide, or go to the X1 Sports app and open the NFL tab.

--Verizon Fios: tune to channel 1499

--Optimum (Altice): tune to channel 200

--T-Mobile TVision: tune to channel 120

--DirecTV: tune to channel 105


If you don’t have an Apple TV, Roku, or one of these cable providers, you have one more shot: the fuboTV streaming service has apps for most platforms and will also carry the game in 4K HDR. It’s harder to predict exactly what combination of video and audio formats you’ll with fuboTV depending on your device, but we’re curious, so let us know.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/26/2...ball-streaming
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post #10 of 542 Old 09-26-2019, 10:37 AM
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I find this a very candid and enlightening interview. A lot of technical issues involved before we ever get a TRUELY unified 4K production.
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post #11 of 542 Old 09-26-2019, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by John9999 View Post
I find this a very candid and enlightening interview. A lot of technical issues involved before we ever get a TRUELY unified 4K production.
Looking forward to user comments once tonight's game gets underway.
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Strange. He kept referring to "color" as HDR, when color is BT2020. Two different things.

The Women's World Cup was produced in 4K, and they were playing 4K slo-mo using pretty standard 4K EVS servers. Now maybe the "super slo mo" is too much to handle, but I will gladly take 1080p super slo-mo if the rest of the cameras are in 4K.

Still, their up-converters are starting with a much higher bit rate than we would ever have, so the up-conversion should be very good.

Come to think of it, I thought some of the slo-mo cameras were 4K so they could zoom in and re-frame the shot in playback at 1080p. I guess they don't playout at 4K.


EDIT: aw, crap... Dish dropped Fox Sports! No Roku apps for me.

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post #13 of 542 Old 09-26-2019, 03:08 PM
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Ugh! Gonna be tough to watch the cheesers in 4K. Although the HDR will really highlight Rodgers getting smacked around.

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post #14 of 542 Old 09-26-2019, 03:18 PM
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My Roku still isn't showing I can watch it in 4k through the Fox Sports app. All it shows for me is where my local Fox station has the game in the listings.
It just updated to show 4k.
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Originally Posted by CLTQ90 View Post
Will the Amazon app be the best way to stream this game in 4K on a Samsung tv?
You'll be able to watch on Amazon but it's not going to be in 4K. I find the PQ pretty good and watch the Thursday games on there ever since they've offered them.

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How does this fox sports app thing work

I have fox sports app on my phone... can i send it to my 4k chromecast?... and where is the 4k indicator on the app ...?

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How does this fox sports app thing work

I have fox sports app on my phone... can i send it to my 4k chromecast?... and where is the 4k indicator on the app ...?

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No, Apple TV and Roku are the only OTT sources.
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No, Apple TV and Roku are the only OTT sources.
And as far as I know, the Apple device doesn't do HLG. In fact, I'm not sure the Roku does either.
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post #19 of 542 Old 09-26-2019, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by pabuwal View Post
No, Apple TV and Roku are the only OTT sources.
And as far as I know, the Apple device doesn't do HLG. In fact, I'm not sure the Roku does either.
Roku does support HLG.
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post #20 of 542 Old 09-26-2019, 04:53 PM
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And as far as I know, the Apple device doesn't do HLG. In fact, I'm not sure the Roku does either.
I’ve been trying to confirm this for a while now. According to this article from 2018 it does.

https://www.macobserver.com/tips/qui...w-apple-tv-4k/

UHD video (3840 x 2160p) is supported at 60 Hz. There is HDR support for Dolby Vision (Profile 5), HLG and HDR10.
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Since the apple TV doesn't pass along the HLG - what setting should we use for the best PQ?
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Anyone else have no sound on the app via ATV4K?
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Originally Posted by TheRatPatrol View Post
I’ve been trying to confirm this for a while now. According to this article from 2018 it does.

https://www.macobserver.com/tips/qui...w-apple-tv-4k/

UHD video (3840 x 2160p) is supported at 60 Hz. There is HDR support for Dolby Vision (Profile 5), HLG and HDR10.
Yeah, I've seen that article as well and it's an outlier as every other article or posting regarding HLG I've seen says no. Apple makes no mention of HLG in their support pages.
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Anyone else have no sound on the app via ATV4K?
Sound just came on. Sounds mono.
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Audio

I didn't have audio on the AppleTV 4K. I had to switch to secondary audio to hear sound.
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Sound just came on. Sounds mono.
Now the video is out with just the NFL shield logo.
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Looked decent for a couple minutes but just locked up... Fox Sports logo on screen now.
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No HDR/HLG on Roku so far. Sound came back at 8:06

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Now the video is out with just the NFL shield logo.
That's during commercials

Fox sports 4K broadcasts have no commercials

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I can’t find the 4k game on my Xfinity X1 box. I searched by using the mic and couldn’t find it.
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