2019-2020 NBA Season thread - Page 17 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #481 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 03:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Michael Jordan says bad pizza, not the flu made him sick before iconic Game 5 win over Jazz

“It really wasn’t the flu game,” Jordan said. “It was food poisoning.”...

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/michael...015415320.html
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post #482 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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looks like ESPN is going to continue to milk this Jordan wave of popularity...

After the success of its 10-part documentary series about Michael Jordan and the final year of the Chicago Bulls dynasty, the network will exclusively televise a cinematic production of Game 6 of the 1998 NBA Finals, entitled ‘Game 6: The Movie,’ on Wednesday at 9 p.m...according to ESPN, the broadcast will feature “exclusive, never-before-seen game footage captured by five different NBA Entertainment cameras, presenting new and innovative views of the historic game.”

It will also mark the first time that the iconic game is available in high definition
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post #483 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 08:59 AM
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looks like ESPN is going to continue to milk this Jordan wave of popularity...

After the success of its 10-part documentary series about Michael Jordan and the final year of the Chicago Bulls dynasty, the network will exclusively televise a cinematic production of Game 6 of the 1998 NBA Finals, entitled ‘Game 6: The Movie,’ on Wednesday at 9 p.m...according to ESPN, the broadcast will feature “exclusive, never-before-seen game footage captured by five different NBA Entertainment cameras, presenting new and innovative views of the historic game.”

It will also mark the first time that the iconic game is available in high definition
If it's been re-mastered (telecined) into HD, NBA Entertainment must have used film instead of video cameras, like NFL films used to do for their weekly pro football highlight packages. Interesting. I'm there!

Fun fact: If I'm not mistaken, 1998 was the year they experimented with HDTV for football for the first time. I think ABC did MNF in HD that year, or maybe it was the Super Bowl...?, as a simulcast test project. Nobody actually saw it though, as the number of actual HDTV's in existence back then was vanishingly small, as was any delivery mechanism. They just did it for that one year, and then didn't pick it up again, full time, until the mid-aughts I think. Maybe one of the satellite services? Anybody remember that?
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post #484 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 12:23 PM
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This is amusing.

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post #485 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 01:03 PM
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The one thing that really disappointed me about the documentary was the very poor quality of much of the 90's game footage.

I didn't get that at all.

I've had VHS recordings that looked better than much of the 90's game film featured in the documentary. You would think that they would have access to better first-gen video source material.

No, I wasn't expecting HD quality throughout. Or even DVD quality. Just not such horrid quality.
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post #486 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 01:03 PM
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looks like ESPN is going to continue to milk this Jordan wave of popularity...

After the success of its 10-part documentary series about Michael Jordan and the final year of the Chicago Bulls dynasty, the network will exclusively televise a cinematic production of Game 6 of the 1998 NBA Finals, entitled ‘Game 6: The Movie,’ on Wednesday at 9 p.m...
Looking at my DTV EPG, doesn't look like this Wednesday, 5/20. Couple of old Mavs/Heat playoff games are scheduled from 7 to 11 PM. Might be next Wednesday, the 27th, when the 9:00 EDT time slot says "info not available".
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post #487 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Looking at my DTV EPG, doesn't look like this Wednesday, 5/20. Couple of old Mavs/Heat playoff games are scheduled from 7 to 11 PM. Might be next Wednesday, the 27th, when the 9:00 EDT time slot says "info not available".
it's definitely this Wednesday May 20th...I think it's a last minute change so some of the TV provider Guides might not be updated yet...here's the official ESPN press report...

https://espnpressroom.com/us/press-r...his-wednesday/
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post #488 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 01:20 PM
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<snip> .. I also don't consider him the GOAT-- Kareem, Bill Russell, Wilt, Magic have better cases in my opinion <snip>
Jordan was a 10-time scoring champion, while concurrently making all-defensive first team 9 times.

In other words, as good as it could possibly get both offensively and defensively.

And up until that point, championship teams always had a dominant big man. This was the first time a team won a championship, let alone multiple championships, lead by an off-guard without their best player being their big man. Or at least, a big man not being among their top 2 players. At best, in any Bulls championship year, their center was 4th or 5th best player.

In summary, and to put it kindly, you're a tough crowd.
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post #489 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Jordan was a 10-time scoring champion, while concurrently making all-defensive first team 9 times.

In other words, as good as it could possibly get both offensively and defensively.

And up until that point, championship teams always had a dominant big man. This was the time a team won a championship, let alone multiple championships, without their best player being their big man. Or at least, a big man not being among their top 2 players. At best, in any Bulls championship year, their center was 4th or 5th best player.

In summary, and to put it kindly, you're a tough crowd.
Russell won 11 titles in 13 seasons...that's about as dominant as you can get...so Russell wins the rings argument...Kareem won the same number of championships as Jordan plus is the all time leader in points and won 6 MVP's...Magic won 5 titles and is arguably the greatest point guard of all time...to say that Jordan is the no doubt GOAT is diminishing the accomplishments of those others
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post #490 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 01:43 PM
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Russell won 11 titles in 13 seasons...that's about as dominant as you can get...so Russell wins the rings argument...Kareem won the same number of championships as Jordan plus is the all time leader in points and won 6 MVP's...Magic won 5 titles and is arguably the greatest point guard of all time...to say that Jordan is the no doubt GOAT is diminishing the accomplishments of those others
Well if you're going to include # of championships as a large determining factor, then Magic is out of the running because he had 5, MJ had 6.

And while Magic is arguable the greatest point guard of all time, Jordan is arguably the best two-guard of all time. So for argument sake, we'll call it a draw on that "best player by their respective position" point and so then their respective # of championships becomes the criteria.

Which then leaves Magic out, with only Russell & Kareem remaining in consideration.

The rest gets more complicated, trying to compare eras, different rules, fewer teams, possibly lesser competition, etc.

So I will concede there may not be a clear cut answer here and a respectable case can be made for all 3.

But to flat out say the others have a better case? Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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post #491 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Well if you're going to include # of championships as a large determining factor, then Magic is out of the running because he had 5, MJ had 6.
it's not just a simple question of who has the most rings...that's silly...that's one part...that's an argument that people who aren't hard core fans like to make...you don't just give the title of GOAT to the person that has the most titles...otherwise it would be worded as who's the person with the most rings...is Lebron in the running?...he only has 3 titles...by the time his career is over he will also be in the running even if he doesn't win another championship

do you know that Robert Horry has 7 titles?...do you consider him a better player then Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Magic etc?...of course Magic is in the running even though he has less titles...my point is that Jordan is not and should not be the clear cut GOAT

so the different era/different rules argument doesn't apply to Jordan's Bulls?...of course it does...that was one era in the same way that any other era can be compared to

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post #492 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 01:53 PM
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Jordan was a 10-time scoring champion, while concurrently making all-defensive first team 9 times.

In other words, as good as it could possibly get both offensively and defensively.

And up until that point, championship teams always had a dominant big man. This was the first time a team won a championship, let alone multiple championships, lead by an off-guard without their best player being their big man. Or at least, a big man not being among their top 2 players. At best, in any Bulls championship year, their center was 4th or 5th best player.

In summary, and to put it kindly, you're a tough crowd.

Bill Lambier was not the first or second best player on the Pistons when they won two championships, Dumars and Thomas led those teams and I'm pretty sure they were before the Bulls. ;-)

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post #493 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 02:12 PM
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Bill Lambier was not the first or second best player on the Pistons when they won two championships, Dumars and Thomas led those teams and I'm pretty sure they were before the Bulls. ;-)
Ah, yes. How could I forget. I will concede to your point.

note to self: DOH!

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post #494 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Jerry Krause Deserved Better in 'The Last Dance'

'The Last Dance' was entertaining and gave us a glimpse inside Michael Jordan and the 1998 Chicago Bulls. But when it came to Jerry Krause, the documentary could be downright cruel...

Krause was one of the keenest basketball minds of his generation, an ex–baseball scout turned NBA general manager who inherited a team with Jordan and proceeded to build out a roster around him...It was Krause who pulled off one of the great drafts in league history, in 1987, when he acquired Scottie Pippen in a draft-day trade with Seattle and scooped up Horace Grant a few picks later...It was Krause who pulled Jackson from the basketball bushes, plucking Jackson out of the CBA in ’87 to work as an assistant to Doug Collins, elevating him to head coach two years later...And it was Krause who used a second-round pick in 1990 on Toni Kukoc, nabbing a playmaking, sweet-shooting European big man years before NBA teams started scouring the globe for them...

https://www.si.com/nba/2020/05/18/je...the-last-dance
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post #495 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 02:38 PM
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Jerry Krause Deserved Better in 'The Last Dance'

'The Last Dance' was entertaining and gave us a glimpse inside Michael Jordan and the 1998 Chicago Bulls. But when it came to Jerry Krause, the documentary could be downright cruel...

Krause was one of the keenest basketball minds of his generation, an ex–baseball scout turned NBA general manager who inherited a team with Jordan and proceeded to build out a roster around him...It was Krause who pulled off one of the great drafts in league history, in 1987, when he acquired Scottie Pippen in a draft-day trade with Seattle and scooped up Horace Grant a few picks later...It was Krause who pulled Jackson from the basketball bushes, plucking Jackson out of the CBA in ’87 to work as an assistant to Doug Collins, elevating him to head coach two years later...And it was Krause who used a second-round pick in 1990 on Toni Kukoc, nabbing a playmaking, sweet-shooting European big man years before NBA teams started scouring the globe for them...

https://www.si.com/nba/2020/05/18/je...the-last-dance
I don't agree at all regarding the way he was portrayed. I'm kinda sick of the fact that a balanced view of someone is criticized because it doesn't hammer home the point that someone wants.

My takeaways from The Last Dance (which I posted previously) is that Jerry Krause was given full credit for drafting and trading for key players to create this dynastic Bulls' team. However, he was also shown to be the main force behind the disassembly of the team although the owner could have stepped in and stopped it. Even Pippen who was antagonistic towards Krause due to his underpayment gave Krause kudos as one of the best GMs ever. Additionally, even though Jordan thought it was a horrible idea to break up the team in 1999, the show never pandered to that opinion and it was also clear that Jordan nuked his own chances for a 7th or 8th ring by quitting after the 1993 season though it was clear he was completely exhausted by that time.
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post #496 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't agree at all regarding the way he was portrayed. I'm kinda sick of the fact that a balanced view of someone is criticized because it doesn't hammer home the point that someone wants.

My takeaways from The Last Dance (which I posted previously) is that Jerry Krause was given full credit for drafting and trading for key players to create this dynastic Bulls' team. However, he was also shown to be the main force behind the disassembly of the team although the owner could have stepped in and stopped it. Even Pippen who was antagonistic towards Krause due to his underpayment gave Krause kudos as one of the best GMs ever. Additionally, even though Jordan thought it was a horrible idea to break up the team in 1999, the show never pandered to that opinion and it was also clear that Jordan nuked his own chances for a 7th or 8th ring by quitting after the 1993 season though it was clear he was completely exhausted by that time.
Krause wasn't given his due because the Last Dance documentary was a Michael Jordan produced fluff piece and he was given full control over everything...
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post #497 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 02:50 PM
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Krause wasn't given his due because the Last Dance documentary was a Michael Jordan produced fluff piece and he was given full control over everything...
That's the problem. He was given his due but because it is a Michael Jordan thing, pretty much everything and everyone was filtered through MJ's pov. So a lot of important contributions and guys weren't given their due. However Krause got his props but his faults were also shown.

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post #498 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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That's the problem. He was given his due but because it is a Michael Jordan thing, pretty much everything and everyone was filtered through MJ's pov. So a lot of important contributions and guys weren't given their due. However Krause got his props but his faults were also shown.
I heard some former NBA players were hesitant to appear because of the control that Jordan had over the series...John Stockton was apparently the last person to sign on...

John Stockton almost wasn't in 'The Last Dance,' called it a 'Michael Jordan puff piece,' director says

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/j...director-says/
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post #499 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 03:45 PM
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I heard some former NBA players were hesitant to appear because of the control that Jordan had over the series...John Stockton was apparently the last person to sign on...

John Stockton almost wasn't in 'The Last Dance,' called it a 'Michael Jordan puff piece,' director says

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/j...director-says/
Headlines often lie about the true details. Stockton avoided the director for 2 years and when he finally spoke to the director, he told the director "I don't want to be part of a Michael Jordan puff piece." But then, the director was able to explain that it wasn't a puff piece and convinced Stockton so clearly Stockton changed his mind. Reggie Miller as well. Also, both of those guys still have bad feelings about the losses.

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post #500 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Headlines often lie about the true details. Stockton avoided the director for 2 years and when he finally spoke to the director, he told the director "I don't want to be part of a Michael Jordan puff piece." But then, the director was able to explain that it wasn't a puff piece and convinced Stockton so clearly Stockton changed his mind. Reggie Miller as well. Also, both of those guys still have bad feelings about the losses.
just because they agreed to appear doesn't mean they don't still feel that way...so it took 2 years for the director to tell him this?...he didn't tell him that right from the start?...of course he did but obviously Stockton and others still had major reservations...the director just convinced them by some means- maybe listing all the players that did agree to appear etc...allowing Jordan full control and final say is not impartial in the least...even the great Ken Burns stated this a few weeks ago- partnering with Jordan, who had control over the archived footage the series features— is something he would “never, never, never, never” agree to as a filmmaker
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post #501 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 06:28 PM
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just because they agreed to appear doesn't mean they don't still feel that way...so it took 2 years for the director to tell him this?...he didn't tell him that right from the start?...of course he did but obviously Stockton and others still had major reservations...the director just convinced them by some means- maybe listing all the players that did agree to appear etc...allowing Jordan full control and final say is not impartial in the least...even the great Ken Burns stated this a few weeks ago- partnering with Jordan, who had control over the archived footage the series features— is something he would “never, never, never, never” agree to as a filmmaker
I'm going to stop feeding this troll.

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post #502 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm going to stop feeding this troll.
you just can't seem to handle when someone refutes your arguments...maybe I'll post some YouTube videos which explain it all as it seems that's something you love to do with every TV show
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you just can't seem to handle when someone refutes your arguments...maybe I'll post some YouTube videos which explain it all as it seems that's something you love to do with every TV show
Right.

You don't refute arguments, you just repeat your arguments and then misstate the points that others make.
I used to think that you were a reasonable poster. I don't anymore so I'm just choosing not to engage you.

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post #504 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I used to think that you were a reasonable poster. I don't anymore so I'm just choosing not to engage you.
no problem...I hope you keep your promise
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I haven't watched Last Dance yet (I have all the episodes recorded) but from articles I've read I'm not liking some of the things I'm hearing...
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Krause wasn't given his due because the Last Dance documentary was a Michael Jordan produced fluff piece and he was given full control over everything...
You seem to have some weird axe to grind.

How much of the documentary series have you even seen yet? Seems like you've formed strong opinions ahead of time, based mostly upon articles that you've apparently had time enough to read about the series while you've had no time yet to actually watch any of the series.

Are there things that could be reasonably questioned and debated about it? Sure. And while I think the director has defended the documentary pretty well regarding some of those criticisms, I'm sure not everyone will be fully satisfied or convinced. But calling it a "puff piece"? That's just plain silly. Particularly if you haven't even seen any of it yet.
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post #506 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 06:48 PM
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I don't agree at all regarding the way he was portrayed. I'm kinda sick of the fact that a balanced view of someone is criticized because it doesn't hammer home the point that someone wants.

My takeaways from The Last Dance (which I posted previously) is that Jerry Krause was given full credit for drafting and trading for key players to create this dynastic Bulls' team. However, he was also shown to be the main force behind the disassembly of the team although the owner could have stepped in and stopped it. Even Pippen who was antagonistic towards Krause due to his underpayment gave Krause kudos as one of the best GMs ever. Additionally, even though Jordan thought it was a horrible idea to break up the team in 1999, the show never pandered to that opinion and it was also clear that Jordan nuked his own chances for a 7th or 8th ring by quitting after the 1993 season though it was clear he was completely exhausted by that time.
Apparently, metrics were showing that Jordan was slipping from age and wear in his final season with the Bulls. Plus, there was the Jordan cigar-cutting finger accident after the season, which apparently was a bad injury. And Pippen never was quite the same player after that last championship because of his increasingly reoccurring back issues. And he wanted his multi-year cashing-in pay raise. So it was highly unlikely he would have signed on for another year at the behest of Jordan to go for one more ring. Also, as that SI article noted, Rodman was at the end of his career too. He only played a total of 30 some odd games for the remainder of his career. While he was still an effective rebounder, his on-ball defensive skills were suffering badly due to age and injury.

Despite the insistence of those who claim that the Bulls in a strike-shortened season could have sustained long enough to earn a 7th championship, there were too many obstacles for that to have been more than just an outside chance. The Bulls were broken up at the right time, IMO.
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post #507 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
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You seem to have some weird axe to grind.

How much of the documentary series have you even seen yet? Seems like you've formed strong opinions ahead of time, based mostly upon articles that you've apparently had time enough to read about the series while you've had no time yet to actually watch any of the series.

Are there things that could be reasonably questioned and debated about it? Sure. And while I think the director has defended the documentary pretty well regarding some of those criticisms, I'm sure not everyone will be fully satisfied or convinced. But calling it a "puff piece"? That's just plain silly. Particularly if you haven't even seen any of it yet.
so you think that something completely controlled by Jordan where he has the final say on everything (including getting the last word whenever another player is interviewed) is considered objective?...I don't understand what the issue is...is there really any sort of argument about this?...this is not a 60 Minutes piece or Real Sports on HBO where a 3rd party is gathering info and presenting it in a neutral way...this is Jordan controlling everything about the production...the director has admitted this...it's not meant to be a documentary in the traditional sense

plus I quoted Ken Burns, the noted historian/filmmaker who stated the same thing...what exactly is your dispute with my statements?...that it's a 'puff piece'?...that was Stockton's exact quote which I repeated...I'm not saying MJ wasn't one of the greatest players ever...he was...I'm saying for me he's not the GOAT...but Top 3 sure...is that really something so hard to believe?
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post #508 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 06:55 PM
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Apparently, metrics were showing that Jordan was slipping from age and wear in his final season with the Bulls. Plus, there was the Jordan cigar-cutting finger accident after the season, which apparently was a bad injury. And Pippen never was quite the same player after that last championship because of his increasingly reoccurring back issues. And he wanted his multi-year cashing-in pay raise. So it was highly unlikely he would have signed on for another year at the behest of Jordan to go for one more ring. Also, as that SI article noted, Rodman was at the end of his career too. He only played a total of 30 some odd games for the remainder of his career. While he was still an effective rebounder, his on-ball defensive skills were suffering badly due to age and injury.

Despite the insistence of those who claim that the Bulls in a strike-shortened season could have sustained long enough to earn a 7th championship, there were too many obstacles for that to have been more than just an outside chance. The Bulls were broken up at the right time, IMO.
I pretty much agree but a rebuild wasn't really possible with this team because Phil Jackson didn't want to do it and a lot of players really didn't have that much value without MJ. Basically kaput either way. The best bet (with hindsight) would be to do everything possible to keep MJ since he was a cash cow.

"Don't blame me -- I voted for Kodos." Homer Simpson
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post #509 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 06:55 PM
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...But calling it a "puff piece"? That's just plain silly...
Tell John Stockton.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/j...director-says/
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post #510 of 582 Old 05-18-2020, 07:12 PM
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I pretty much agree but a rebuild wasn't really possible with this team because Phil Jackson didn't want to do it and a lot of players really didn't have that much value without MJ. Basically kaput either way. The best bet (with hindsight) would be to do everything possible to keep MJ since he was a cash cow.
Yes, "kaput either way", I agree.

The fact that the Bulls struggled badly for the next several years doesn't negate the validity of the decision to break them apart, IMO. It was simply time.

A couple beat reporters who covered the team in that last championship season said that it took everything out of them for the Bulls to get through the year. The burden of high expectations, along with increasing age, injury and mental/physical exhaustion. Their last championship brought them little joy, just mostly relief.
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