HDMI Audio Extractor with DD+ Extraction? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 27 Old 02-01-2017, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
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HDMI Audio Extractor with DD+ Extraction?

Hoping someone here can help me find my holy grail of HDMI audio extractor as I've pretty much given up hope that such a thing exists . . .

I have a client with Nvidia Shield TV, connected via HDMI 2.0a to a Panasonic 4K HDR TV. They have an existing AVR system which can only accept audio as Optical, which they don't want to change.

HDR/4K works fine, but my Panasonic TV does not support DD/DD+/DTS, it sometimes works with passing the audio back via ARC to a switch I already use on another port, but most times it doesn't.

So, I am looking for a HDMI audio extractor, that supports HDMI 2.0a for [email protected] and HDR, that will provide the correct EDID information to the Shield TV to allow it to output DD. It will the pass the DD out of the optical port unadulterated.

My second issue is that the Netflix and Amazon Prime apps on the Shield box only support DD+, so I ideally it would also provide the correct EDID for that and actually convert the DD+ to DD to pass out of the Optical port. Now I have failed miserably to find anything that does this. Lots of boxes looked promising, but they never actually do the conversion.

It's annoying as I can find FPGA IP that is specifically designed to do exactly this, just seems nobody has actually used it.

Anyone seen anything they've seen that might work, or alternatively a different approach I'm not seeing here?

Thanks

Gareth
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post #2 of 27 Old 02-01-2017, 04:47 PM
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Stumped as well! I don't think the product you're looking for exists, but hear me out:

HDMI Cable From Source Into HDMI Splitter 1x2, splitter must have internal edid settings to set your EDID for 4K/60 HDR with DD+ (or higher) audio.

Output 1: To Panasonic

Output 2: HDMI Audio Extractor

Would solve EDID problem and the fact that there's no real inline audio extractor to solve HDMI 2.0A (by making it not inline). It does not solve the DD+ to DD conversion. Is this necessary because the AVR doesn't support DD+? I'm going to assume so. What if the EDID said DD and not DD+ to the Netflix and Amazon apps? It would just fail to play audio? I'll assume this is true as well. Aside from upgrading the AVR you either need an audio extractor that will do it in one step or a another device.

Can you set not set the Netflix/Amazon apps to output LPCM 5.1? This would get rid of this problem I think.

If not, I'm not really sure on anything that would downmix DD+ to DD, but there could be something out there.

So... I mean we all know that just upgrading to an AVR that support HDMI2.0A would solve every problem, but I get it, sometimes there's just job requirements you gotta follow. I've proposed kind of an ugly solution, but hey it was fun. I'd like to see the next guy say "duh, just use this (thing)!"

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post #3 of 27 Old 02-01-2017, 05:14 PM
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HD Fury Integral? I never used one so I don't know if it can do everything you need, but I think it would handle your first issue. Is this some really high end audio system they don't want to part with?
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post #4 of 27 Old 02-02-2017, 05:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Guys,

Thanks for the suggestions!

@JT Babin - That sounds like a plausable solution, though I wonder if it will hit any HDCP 2.2 issues if the de-emeder doesn't support it? Guessing so, wonder if I can get an HDCP 2.2 compatible de-embeder, possibly as their seems to be a load of HDMI 1.4 compatible ones.

Yes you are correct in that it would be considerably easier if the applications would just output vanilla DD from the device if the sink indicates it doesn't support DD+, but it seems that Netflix and Amazon are now only supplying DD+ streams to the end device (apart from some specific TV's), and in their wisdom Nvidia decided to not include a DD+ decoder in their box to allow it to convert the stream to DD before outputting it (which is what the Amazon fireTV boxes are capable of), so it's a bit of a rock and a hard place situation.

The AVR is a Sonos playbar setup, which is part of a much larger Sonos system in the house and they don't want to loose the integration. I understand it, but yes it would be so much simpler to replace the AVR, but it would also mean changing all the speakers, wiring e.t.c

What we really need is for Sonos to bring out a suitable overpriced box with HDMI on it that decodes and sends the audio to the Play Bar, but they seem to be dying a slow death at the moment so I don't think that's going to happen any time soon.

Good shout on the HD Fury Integral, will give them a should and confirm that it does the job, hopefully one of your solutions will work . . .

Thanks for the help, if anything else pops into your head do let me know!

Cheers

Gareth
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post #5 of 27 Old 02-02-2017, 06:45 AM
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Usually whatever is connected to output 1 of a splitter is responsible for negotiating HDCP, so I don't think you'll have any issue. A one box solution would be better though.

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post #6 of 27 Old 02-02-2017, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Hmm, seems finding a reasonably priced HDMI 2.0a capable DA which has proper EDID management is also rather difficult.

Continue to bang my head against the wall . . .

Anyone aware of any cheap AVR's that will pass the signal they receive from the HDMI input out via an auxiliary optical output? Seems massive overkill but might work?

Cheers

Gareth
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post #7 of 27 Old 02-03-2017, 03:41 AM
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'They have an existing AVR system which can only accept audio as Optical, which they don't want to change.' - can't help thinking it would be a much better move to simply replace the AVR for an UHD/HDCP 2.2 compliant AVR!

What is the AVR they are wanting to hang on to?

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post #8 of 27 Old 02-03-2017, 03:43 AM - Thread Starter
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It's a Sonos Play Bar setup with Sub and Surrounds. It's part of a much larger Sonos system and they don't want to loose the whole house audio integration.

Cheers

Gareth
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post #9 of 27 Old 02-03-2017, 04:04 AM
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Our UHD41-ARC 4x1 HDMI + Optical Switch is a popular 'companion' to the PLAYBAR - I don't have an Nvidia Shield TV here in the UK to test it out, I'll ask if we have one in Atlanta and if they can try out the services you are having the DD+ issue with.

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post #10 of 27 Old 02-11-2017, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Joe, thanks for the message. Did you manage to find anything out?

Cheers

Gareth
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post #11 of 27 Old 06-10-2017, 01:51 PM
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I found this thread looking to solve frustrating audio sync issues with my Songs playbar. The devices all run HDMI into a Sony XBR 4k TV and the optical audio passes out of the TV to the Sonos over optical audio connection.

I plan to run all device HDMI through the Octava HD41ARC then to the TV but the optical audio will go from the Octava direct to the Sonos, bypassing the TV. If this relates at all to the issue from the OP let me know and I'll report back on my experience once I receive and test the Octava HD41ARC UHD.

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post #12 of 27 Old 08-10-2017, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babino View Post
I found this thread looking to solve frustrating audio sync issues with my Songs playbar. The devices all run HDMI into a Sony XBR 4k TV and the optical audio passes out of the TV to the Sonos over optical audio connection.

I plan to run all device HDMI through the Octava HD41ARC then to the TV but the optical audio will go from the Octava direct to the Sonos, bypassing the TV. If this relates at all to the issue from the OP let me know and I'll report back on my experience once I receive and test the Octava HD41ARC UHD.
Hi Babino,
How did you get on with the switch, did it fix the lip sync issues?

Thanks
Mark.
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post #13 of 27 Old 08-18-2017, 08:58 PM
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It did work for me and solved the issues. I found that the only limitation was failure to negotiate at 4096x2180 at 60 fps which I can't find any product with separate optical connections that can. It should work for most people using anything but the highest settings and bandwidth that 4k can support.

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post #14 of 27 Old 12-12-2017, 02:18 PM
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Hi,

Isn't there any solution to get DD 5.1 sound on Netflix through optical connection with the Shield yet? I'm on a similar boat as the OP, because my AVR does not have HDMI.
Maybe an HD Fury Integral adapter could do this?

Thanks in advance
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post #15 of 27 Old 12-12-2017, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiddenUser View Post
Hi,

Isn't there any solution to get DD 5.1 sound on Netflix through optical connection with the Shield yet? I'm on a similar boat as the OP, because my AVR does not have HDMI.
Maybe an HD Fury Integral adapter could do this?

Thanks in advance
If the HD Fury Integral is something you'd consider - why are you not just upgrading your AVR? Is it an audiophile unit or just been around that long?

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post #16 of 27 Old 12-12-2017, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post
If the HD Fury Integral is something you'd consider - why are you not just upgrading your AVR? Is it an audiophile unit or just been around that long?
I cannot buy a new AVR at this moment, that's why I'm asking this.

Thanks
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post #17 of 27 Old 12-13-2017, 06:14 AM
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This is a newer product which should address all these issues. OP is probably way past this, but for others check this out https://atlona.com/product/at-hdr-m2c/

Price point might be a little high, that I understand.

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post #18 of 27 Old 12-13-2017, 03:41 PM
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I don't think I fully understand WHAT you are trying to do....perhaps the following can help us understand your requirements....

DD+ is an EXTENSION Data Stream running in PARALLEL to the original DD5.1 Data Stream. Hence many SMART DTV APPS frequently output DD+ via Optical Output (and IDENTICAL Stream via ARC from DTV to AVR). Those AVR's that implemented DD+ automatically recognize that format and provide DD+ playback....and those AVR's that did NOT implement DD+, recognize that portion of the Data Stream that is in the original DD5.1 format for playback:
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...data-sheet.pdf

So, to play DD+, the AVR would have to IMPLEMENT DD+ [aka E-AC3, Extended AC-3, where AC-3 is DD5.1], else it would playback DD5.1.

You discussed an HDMI Optical Extractor, where the Optical Output would be routed to AVR. There are a few issues you should know about. In HDMI I/F, the SOURCE queries DESTINATION to determine the highest, compatible format for Audio and Video. When connected to DTV Input, it will ALWAYS result in STEREO Output format, cuz DTV's only have TWO Internal Speakers. So the Extracted Optical Stream will be STEREO.

An HDMI Optical EXTRACTOR is designed to work with EXTERNAL DEVICES [such as Game Stations, Streaming Boxes, BD-Players that do NOT have two independent HDMI Outputs, etc.]. The INPUT can be connected to SOURCE Outputting DD5.1/DD+, while SAME DD5.1/DD is ALSO Output via Optical I/F, but HDMI Output CAN be DOWNMIXED to [2-Ch capable] DTV. As I understand it, the Selector Switch controls whether HDMI Output format follows HDMI INPUT format (Datastream) or is ALWAYS DD5.1/DD+ [or DD2.0 if STEREO???] or is ALWAYS Downmixed to 2-Ch STEREO [what DTV wants]:
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=24278
https://downloads.monoprice.com/file...ual_170718.pdf

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post #19 of 27 Old 12-13-2017, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post
I don't think I fully understand WHAT you are trying to do....perhaps the following can help us understand your requirements....
I'll try to explain my issue a bit better.

As you probably know, the Shield cannot convert DD+ to DD audio and Netflix use DD+. Since my AVR does not support HDMI (nor DD+), the only way to get surround sound from Netflix with the Shield is through optical/coaxial connection. However, I need a device between the Shield and my AVR performing that conversion to get traditional Dolby 5.1 audio. I thought the converter I posted before did that conversion and now I know it doesn't, it's only a 'de-embedder' not a real converter.

Now it's clear for me that this problem has no solution, save for buying another media center like the Amazon FireTV or the Apple TV which support DD+ to DD conversion (because they are licensed devices, whereas the Nvidia is not).

Thanks for your detailed explanation.
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post #20 of 27 Old 12-14-2017, 11:12 AM
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In doing further research I ran across one comment that said that NVDIA SHIELD TV didn't have a DOLBY License.....this conflicts with OTHER info, but would certainly explain why it would only Output 2-Ch PCM STEREO....it's not AUTHORIZED to Output DD or DD-Plus:
https://github.com/koying/SPMC/wiki/...d-AV-Receivers

Fol. detailed article explains it as I describe above. IF TV is connected to SHIELD's HDMI Output it will ALWAYS request 2-Ch STEREO Output. The Solution is to (presumably) use Monoprice (or equivalent) Device to FORCE the Output to SURROUND. Perhaps you can confirm by emailing/calling mfr.

Another popular solution, is to connect NVDIA SHIELD TV to Input of HDMI-capable AVR [so can play ANY Digital Audio Format incl. Hi-Rez Loss-Less types] and then connect Output of AVR to DTV, which will negotiate 2-Ch STEREO Output independently of the AVR Inputs.
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post #21 of 27 Old 04-12-2018, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by HiddenUser View Post
I'll try to explain my issue a bit better.

As you probably know, the Shield cannot convert DD+ to DD audio and Netflix use DD+. Since my AVR does not support HDMI (nor DD+), the only way to get surround sound from Netflix with the Shield is through optical/coaxial connection. However, I need a device between the Shield and my AVR performing that conversion to get traditional Dolby 5.1 audio. I thought the converter I posted before did that conversion and now I know it doesn't, it's only a 'de-embedder' not a real converter.

Now it's clear for me that this problem has no solution, save for buying another media center like the Amazon FireTV or the Apple TV which support DD+ to DD conversion (because they are licensed devices, whereas the Nvidia is not).

Thanks for your detailed explanation.
Hi guys,

Just bought a Shield mainly because my official Android TV OS media player won't output Netflix 5.1 audio using an HDMI audio extractor. The same extractor does pull DD 5.1 from other sources so I know the extractor is capable. My AVR is A Mcintosh MX-119 ( no HDMI) and I don't want to-change it. I haven't opened the Shield box yet but it's a deal killer if it can't output DD 5.1 using the extractor.

If it matters, my Oppo 103 plays Netflix 5.1 using the optical output to my McIntosh AVR.

thx

bob
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post #22 of 27 Old 04-15-2018, 07:00 PM
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Had a ptential issue involving an older AVR and a Roku stick and Netflix (did not know Amazon did DD+). Someone suggested this item:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074HHSJVN...v_ov_lig_dp_it

Not sure if this is of interest, just passing along info I got. I most likely will not go this way as I am contemplating getting a brand new AVR that covers everything out today. The unit I am focusing on (Onkyo RZ820) has pre outs for all channels so I COULD use the very burly amps in my old AVR very easily (Carver C-1000, 200w ea RMS 5 channels).

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post #23 of 27 Old 04-17-2018, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Riverside_Guy View Post
Had a ptential issue involving an older AVR and a Roku stick and Netflix (did not know Amazon did DD+). Someone suggested this item:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074HHSJVN...v_ov_lig_dp_it

Not sure if this is of interest, just passing along info I got. I most likely will not go this way as I am contemplating getting a brand new AVR that covers everything out today. The unit I am focusing on (Onkyo RZ820) has pre outs for all channels so I COULD use the very burly amps in my old AVR very easily (Carver C-1000, 200w ea RMS 5 channels).

Won't convert DD+ to DD 5.1 but thanks

bob
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post #24 of 27 Old 04-18-2018, 03:59 PM
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HDMI 'Extractors' tend to do just that - they extract whatever audio your Source is Outputting.

If the Source is DD+ and nothing else in your system is DD+ compatible you either require an Expensive Converter box (if you can find one) or find a different Source.

The cost of a Licence for DD+ to DD can run to $100K per annum so outside the realm of most low-volume Switch Manufacturers who are looking to keep kit affordable.

Have you tried passing the Shield via your TV and seeing if the TV will down convert DD+ to DD via the TV Optical Out?

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post #25 of 27 Old 04-20-2018, 11:03 AM
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SUPPOSEDLY, they have to include a plain DD 5.1 stream along with the DD+ stream (per Dolby specifications). So the item I mentioned SHOULD work because it is NOT going through a "conversion" but just extracting what SHOULD be there in the first place. Besides, I have a 12 year old panel and a 17 year old receiver... maybe it's time to think total re-engineer rather than cobble a few more years out...

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post #26 of 27 Old 04-21-2018, 08:22 AM
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If the Source is not sending the 'core' 5.1 stream (which they should be sending) the 'Extractor' can't do anything with the stream - it is the Source not the Extractor which is the issue.

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post #27 of 27 Old 04-21-2018, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Fernand View Post
If the Source is not sending the 'core' 5.1 stream (which they should be sending) the 'Extractor' can't do anything with the stream - it is the Source not the Extractor which is the issue.

Joe
It needs to be decoded or down conerted to DD like the Amazon boxes and LG sets do.

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