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post #31 of 51 Old 01-07-2019, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post
So this can be explained from the original MusicPort - which was the Autonomic MCS software (that you run on your PC acting as a server) along with the NuVoNet adapter (NNA).

Single serial cable connected from the PC running MCS to the NNA - and from the NNA you need at least the Rs485 NuVoNet connection, and optionally (but really want it) RS232 to the GC's port.

All of the "source" commands flow over RS485, but system configuration and other non-source-specific commands go over RS232 to the GC. You can operate MCS using just RS485 - but some commands like #ALLOFF aren't seen. The NuVoNet adapter routes commands from the PC to the 485/232 outputs as required. With the MPS4 that hardware is on board, so Com2 is likely the RS232 output which won't show much traffic as a source - it mostly gets used during configuration time.

There are also some special commands that aren't forwarded by the NNA - for example the NuVo Tuner units react as if they get an "All Off" command (which comes over RS232), but they only connect via NuVoNet - and there's no NuVoNet equivalent command seen on the NNA output! So there's some special NuVoNet commands that are eaten by the NNA and never seen by the host. Very odd in that respect.

I assume this was all done to ensure that 3rd parties couldn't (easily) build source products that would compete with NuVo's own products back in those days...


Jeff
Thank you Jeff!

That logic would make a lot of sense historically.

What still puzzles me is that:
- the PCcard is only connected with 3 cables to the Nuvocard: Com2, Audio cable and one combined cable that is "powerish and led lampish".
- the MCS and Nuvo Bridge seem to have access to much more advanced data than is carried on COM2.
Edit: the NuvoNet data is the same on Telnet and Com2

But honestly, I did not spend very much time on the sniffing as I only have SW at hand.

Last edited by Bobone; 01-11-2019 at 07:14 AM.
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post #32 of 51 Old 01-08-2019, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Bobone View Post
Sorry, I missed your question.

RS485: - Baudrate is 230400 Baud. Tolerance between 215 and 245 kBaud (see the edited second post in this thread).

The "Nuvo-Card" probably gets e.g. "Button dwn" from the NuVoNet RS485 and passes it on to the "PC-Card" in some way. Reading the hex appears quite feasible to crack, as I sketched above last spring.

What puzzled me was the lack of detail on Com2 (PC-Card) when I sniffed. What is this port for?
Its clearly not enough to provide the NuvoBridge-granularity that we can see.

Some other cable must be providing the data?
BTW, what does the traffic look like in the cable between the GC and the MPS4 (NuvoCard)? Is it like the mor eadvanced telnet traffic or is the passthrough just a dumb physical connection with standard Nuvo protocol?
RE: the Nuvonet connection.I have yet to get any decent ASCII results. I can see the traffic and it coincides with actions that I take on a keypad.

Any thoughts on additional parameters? Here is the device that I have. https://www.waveshare.com/usb-to-rs232-485-ttl.htm

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post #33 of 51 Old 01-08-2019, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jmorris644 View Post
RE: the Nuvonet connection.I have yet to get any decent ASCII results. I can see the traffic and it coincides with actions that I take on a keypad.
Any thoughts on additional parameters? Here is the device that I have. https://www.waveshare.com/usb-to-rs232-485-ttl.htm
Joe
Not really unfortunately.
I used several SWs. The crudest was Realterm (which by no means is the least advanced). It would be interesting if you got the same frame errors with your HW.
Realterm seems to handle 7 or 8 bit quite flexibly (little or big endian, don't remember and it does not matter), but I could get readable text (in hex) in the "payload area" of messages from all SWs.
The "system overview" message is sent every 1 second with zone and source names.

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post #34 of 51 Old 01-09-2019, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmorris644 View Post
RE: the Nuvonet connection.I have yet to get any decent ASCII results. I can see the traffic and it coincides with actions that I take on a keypad.

Any thoughts on additional parameters? Here is the device that I have. https://www.waveshare.com/usb-to-rs232-485-ttl.htm

Joe
Before I run off and buy one of those, too, can you download the free serial analyzer software and see if it works with the device up at the 230kbaud rate we need to use?

https://www.232analyzer.com/

...

Since this is a single 2-wire bus, the "master" (GC) has got to provide some mechanism for the keypads to reply in some sequence - give them a signal as to when they respond, or they're actually keeping track of timing to reply in their window (I find the latter unlikely).

I suspect the sequence we're seeing has some time gaps between bytes that at human-capture speed are missing. This is where the analyzer would come in handy. If it were me, I would send that "start of cycle" header message, follow that with a "device/keypad #1 do you have anything to say?" byte and wait for a reply for some few milliseconds. No reply, send "device/keypad #2 do you have anything to say?", etc. Finish off the sequence with an "end of cycle" message and then start again.

I believe there could be a total of 26 NuVoNet devices on the bus (maybe it's actually 32 with 6 reserved...) - 16 keypads (maybe there's a total of 20 slots for keypads to allow for sub-zones, I seem to recall that number somewhere), 6 sources and 4 peripherals.

There's also a PING message sent every second which NuVoNet sources have to respond to (I don't know if the keypads are part of that cycle or not).

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post #35 of 51 Old 01-09-2019, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobone View Post
Thank you Jeff!

That logic would make a lot of sense historically.

What still puzzles me is that:
- the PCcard is only connected with 3 cables to the Nuvocard: Com2, Audio cable and one combined cable that is "powerish and led lampish".
- the MCS and Nuvo Bridge seem to have access to much more advanced data than is carried on COM2. Typically "ButtonTwo4,1" (Next Dwn) whereas Com2 would only show "Next".
I would expect that the Nuvocard is the same guts as the NuVoNet Adapter board. I should open mine up and see what's in there anyway... That would make total sense since NuVo developed the NNA and NV-MP before the MPS4 "integrated" everything. And from the PC-based MCS, you just ran one RS232 cable to the NNA and it had RS232 and RS485 (NuVoNet) out.

And the NNA is definitely doing more than a simple 232/485 protocol converter. The LEDs on the NNA (cost reduced off the NV-MP) show what NuVoNet source addresses you've registered for (and what peripheral IDs). It's doing the hard work of the RS485 protocol and providing the friendly ASCII output...

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post #36 of 51 Old 01-09-2019, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by jautor View Post
Before I run off and buy one of those, too, can you download the free serial analyzer software and see if it works with the device up at the 230kbaud rate we need to use?

https://www.232analyzer.com/

...

Since this is a single 2-wire bus, the "master" (GC) has got to provide some mechanism for the keypads to reply in some sequence - give them a signal as to when they respond, or they're actually keeping track of timing to reply in their window (I find the latter unlikely).

I suspect the sequence we're seeing has some time gaps between bytes that at human-capture speed are missing. This is where the analyzer would come in handy. If it were me, I would send that "start of cycle" header message, follow that with a "device/keypad #1 do you have anything to say?" byte and wait for a reply for some few milliseconds. No reply, send "device/keypad #2 do you have anything to say?", etc. Finish off the sequence with an "end of cycle" message and then start again.

I believe there could be a total of 26 NuVoNet devices on the bus (maybe it's actually 32 with 6 reserved...) - 16 keypads (maybe there's a total of 20 slots for keypads to allow for sub-zones, I seem to recall that number somewhere), 6 sources and 4 peripherals.

There's also a PING message sent every second which NuVoNet sources have to respond to (I don't know if the keypads are part of that cycle or not).

Jeff
That analyzer seems to only allow preset baud rates. I cannot get the 230k needed.

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post #37 of 51 Old 01-09-2019, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post
I would expect that the Nuvocard is the same guts as the NuVoNet Adapter board. I should open mine up and see what's in there anyway... That would make total sense since NuVo developed the NNA and NV-MP before the MPS4 "integrated" everything. And from the PC-based MCS, you just ran one RS232 cable to the NNA and it had RS232 and RS485 (NuVoNet) out.

And the NNA is definitely doing more than a simple 232/485 protocol converter. The LEDs on the NNA (cost reduced off the NV-MP) show what NuVoNet source addresses you've registered for (and what peripheral IDs). It's doing the hard work of the RS485 protocol and providing the friendly ASCII output...

Jeff
It does use different (older?) firmware than the NNA and the NV-MP. I would almost think that the MPS4 firmware was frozen earlier in time, and remained un-updated. And as I discovered, the NuVoNet Protocols are implemented slightly differently. Then MPS4 wants to see a SxMENU,6, and the NNA wants to see SxMENU6. *_DISABLEPING also works differently - or should I say - works on an NNA, not on an MPS4. Very irritating, if you are trying to interface with both!

Also, since you mention #PING , what is the correct response to a #PING in order to keep an NNA alive in production? I would have thought it's *SxACTIVE1, but that returns a #? from the NNA, and it eventually times out. The log files of the MPS4 seem to suggest the correct response is actually " PONG". For now, I just disable it.
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Originally Posted by xs10shl View Post
Also, since you mention #PING , what is the correct response to a #PING in order to keep an NNA alive in production? I would have thought it's *SxACTIVE1, but that returns a #? from the NNA, and it eventually times out. The log files of the MPS4 seem to suggest the correct response is actually " PONG". For now, I just disable it.
Correct response is: *PING

Commands begin with #, and replies start with *

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Originally Posted by jmorris644 View Post
That analyzer seems to only allow preset baud rates. I cannot get the 230k needed.
I have a trial copy of HDD Software Device Monitoring Studio

With this I can set the needed parameters. But, I still do not get anything intelligible in ASCII.

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post #40 of 51 Old 01-10-2019, 01:40 PM
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Here is some of the data at 230,000 8,1,N

Code:
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 FF FF FF FD FF FF FF FF FF FF E9 7D E1 60 80 5F   ÿÿÿýÿÿÿÿÿÿé}á`€_
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 60 81 EC E1 E0 05 FF A0 05 FF 60 05 FF 20 05 FF   `ìáà.ÿ .ÿ`.ÿ .ÿ
 60 80 EC 82 E0 05 FF A0 0A FF 60 0A FF 20 0A FF   `€ì‚à.ÿ .ÿ`.ÿ .ÿ
 10 00 FF 3F 3F A0 70 7F FF FF 8F 3F 7D C2 60 C0   ..ÿ?? pÿÿ?}Â`À
 5F 1C E4 80 5F                                    _.ä€_

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post #41 of 51 Old 01-10-2019, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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It should not make a difference, but the rate is 230,400.

Could you not download Realterm (free) or Eltima's SW (trial).
Those were the one's that I used and at least we can eliminate some variables.

Where have you connected the plug? To the NV-I8GEZP EZPort Multi-port connection hub?
(they are all in parallel).

Try keeping the frame, but reading 7 bits to ascii (should not either make a difference, but I remember some odd setting)

BTW, have you verified my MPS4 COM2 reading?
Based on the NNA logic, I have become somewhat unsure that I have been thorough enough.
I hated the user interface of the SW that I used...

Last edited by Bobone; 06-11-2019 at 03:31 PM.
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post #42 of 51 Old 01-11-2019, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry for the confusion!

I checked again: Com2 has relevant NuvoNet information at the same level as the Telnet connection.

--> If you can insert a virtual port driver, you could use this port instead of Telnet.

There are a few ones available.
Anyone with ideas on the best SW?

Edit: Com2 transmits NuvoNet button activity for NuvoNet sources, but not for MCS sources from iPad/web.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobone View Post
Sorry for the confusion!

I checked again: Com2 has relevant NuvoNet information at the same level as the Telnet connection!

--> If you can insert a mirroring driver, you could use this port instead of Telnet.

There are a few ones available.


Anyone with ideas on the best SW?


The passthrough port does not send or receive NuVoNet information by default . . . unless perhaps you enable it to do so in MCS config? What have you seit COM2 at in the first tab of the MCS?



The MPS4 elite software allows you to configure COM2 as a control bridge to a few 3rd party products, so that makes sense.
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post #44 of 51 Old 01-11-2019, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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The passthrough port does not send or receive NuVoNet information by default . . . unless perhaps you enable it to do so in MCS config? What have you seit COM2 at in the first tab of the MCS?
The MPS4 elite software allows you to configure COM2 as a control bridge to a few 3rd party products, so that makes sense.
Com2 in the MCS configuration relates to the PC-card's com2 which connects to the Nuvocard. Both internally. (I did not change any settings and the settings that you can see do not correspond with reality which is at 115 kBaud.)

I do wonder what com1 in the MCS can be used for? I have not managed to set it to anything that works.
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Originally Posted by Bobone View Post
It should not make a difference, but the rate is 230,400.

Could you not download Realterm (free) or Eltima's SW (trial).
Those were the one's that I used and at least we can eliminate some variables.

Where have you connected the plug? To the NV-I8GEZP EZPort Multi-port connection hub?
(they are all in parallel).

Try keeping the frame, but reading 7 bits to ascii (should not either make a difference, but I remember some odd setting)

BTW, have you verified my MPS4 COM2 reading?
Based on the NNA logic, I have become somewhat unsure that I have been thorough enough.
I hated the user interface of the SW that I used...
My Eltima has expired. Maybe I can find areg entry to delete so I can try it again.

Realterm would not run on WIn10. Kept aborting.

I tried both 230,00 and 230,400.

I will try 7 bit to see what I get.

I am plugging directly into the Nuvonet port on the expander (I think that is what it is called).

I don't understand the COM2 comment.

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Ok, maybe its difficult to send over the internal com2 port due to colllision risks?
Would probably require an advanced sw to handle...

Com2 is, by design, more stable than telnet.
Maybe it makes sense to listen on com2 and send on telnet?
Anyone with this kind of experience?

Edit: Tried the first one I could find. Seems to work like a charm in both directions.
Eltima Serial Splitter on trial. Looking for alternatives...

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post #47 of 51 Old 01-13-2019, 11:31 AM
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Ok, maybe its difficult to send over the internal com2 port due to colllision risks?
Would probably require an advanced sw to handle...

Com2 is, by design, more stable than telnet.
Maybe it makes sense to listen on com2 and send on telnet?
Anyone with this kind of experience?

Edit: Tried the first one I could find. Seems to work like a charm in both directions.
Eltima Serial Splitter on trial. Looking for alternatives...
I want to make sure we are clear on what we are attempting to do. I am not looking at Com2 at all. I have connected to a RS485 port. This is the same port that the keypads connect to.

Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree and won't be able to determine how Nuvonet communicates over this circuit.

Bobone, also, did you see that Google is discontinuing the CCA?

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post #48 of 51 Old 01-13-2019, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jmorris644 View Post
I want to make sure we are clear on what we are attempting to do. I am not looking at Com2 at all. I have connected to a RS485 port. This is the same port that the keypads connect to.
Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree and won't be able to determine how Nuvonet communicates over this circuit.
Bobone, also, did you see that Google is discontinuing the CCA?
Hi Joe,
Sorry, my bad!
Tapping directly into the internal serial communication between motherboard and Nuvo card is on COM2 for v1 and COM1 on v2.
That has now been solved and documented in the other thread. It works great!

Read about the CCA. I am not concerned and will buy on sale. The technology remains and is present all over including the newly updated ChromeCast ultra which also has audio. The plugin I use works with my 5yr old TV. Some say that this is just an up-pricing strategy.

Let’s keep the really technical stuff regarding RS485 here.
Have you had any more luck with your device/settings/sw?

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post #49 of 51 Old 01-28-2019, 08:20 PM
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It wouldn't seem logical for Nuvo to have written their own protocol for Nuvonet communication from starch. Is it possible that it is based modbus? Potentially the GC could be polling any writing to registers for all devices on the bus?


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post #50 of 51 Old 11-29-2019, 08:21 PM
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Bob,

I picked up an RS485 interface and can verify most of what you posted. Some messages are larger then others - which seems weird to me but I guess that makes sense. I have an NV-M3 connected also and when i press menu while on the M3 nuvonet source, i get the menu structure that appears on the keypads in the 485 messages - not sure if it's the M3 sending to the CG or the CG sending to keypad or M3 sending broadcast to everyone that is listening. Obviously I also see all sorts of ASCII for the metadate of the music, especially when pausing and resuming. I'll play with this more in the coming weeks.

One thing I found interesting is that if I short the 485 bus and press pause on the keypad while the music from M3 is playing, it will pause as soon as i remove the short on the bus...haven't examined the messages on this yet but either the kepad waits for some sort of bus clear message to send or it keeps repeating until it get a positive confirmation.

Anyone have a nv-nna or nv-mp and has tried pulling the code from the micro onboard?

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Last edited by swapped; 11-29-2019 at 08:26 PM.
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post #51 of 51 Old 11-30-2019, 01:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Your shorting experiment maybe proves the master/slave design of the protocol used. 👍
I got to the point where I felt that reading would be feasible, but I never succeeded in sending a command. Even the ones that I had intercepted. Timing and variations in CRC where potential hurdles and the uncertainty regarding fundamental package definition gave me a headache.
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