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post #691 of 761 Old 01-07-2020, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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0) If you installed Win7 Pro or similar, skip VNC and use plain Windows remote desktop as it is faster. Google it.

1) Just turn off compatibility mode for all the applications you turned on. Sort by type.

2) For the MPS4, SPDIF is still on the board. You are going to have to do own research, I have never played with SPDIF, but it looks very simple. Three pins: Gnd, SPDIF and +5V.

3) Airplay: There is perhaps some fine-tuning to be made on Telnet port 23 with fresh commands for buffers, etc... found in an attached Excel file in the "Howto" link for Telnet. No-one here has ever used them yet, so we are expecting your feedback... Also search the Autonomic Knowledgebase regarding Airplay as a starter. Make a backup first...

4) Good luck and show us some grit!

Last edited by Bobone; 01-08-2020 at 08:59 AM.
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post #692 of 761 Old 01-07-2020, 04:11 PM
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nhollis, if you navigate to the FX2_0 directory, and sort the folder by document type, you can change everything listed as "Application" to native Win7(unchecked for compatibility mode). There are 8 or 9 applcations. At some point, we need to experiment with how many apps still require admin access. At least the config application probably does.

As an aside, I've been running 5.35 on Win10/64 on a development MPS4 for a month, and everything works in win7/8 mode (But native Win10 mode caused a bug which prevents the system from functioning, or it was a permissions problem - I didn't investigate thoroughly). It's been idling undisturbed for about 3 weeks, with no memory leaks, so as of now there could be a few memory leak causes:


1) Backwards compatibility settings causes the leak
2) Something with Win7 causes the leak
3) Something which has/has not been configured causes the leak (ie: streaming service, music database, Airplay "enabled", Zone Airplay "Enabled" are the main suspects, in this case)
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post #693 of 761 Old 01-07-2020, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobone View Post
AhEhSrvr shall no longer run in WinXP compatibility mode on Win7.
- and nor should ahcsshell and the other applications. I have removed all WinXP compatibility settings w/o problems.

Woohoo, no XP compatibility mode! I had noticed that the MCS was restarting itself or possibly the whole system after many days. The tell tale was that any paused state (playlist or streaming channel) was lost and the keypad just said 'Ready' on the Music port zone when turned on. Hopefully this was due to the memory leak and is now overcome.
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post #694 of 761 Old 01-08-2020, 04:14 PM
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As I suspected . Crummy Wifi access point outside was the the obvious culprit. Streaming from fast wifi in the house solves issue.

Here is the guidance from Mirage...

"High quality lossless audio transfer requires a network with sufficient bandwidth and low latency. In order to have the best possible experience using the Airplay feature, a well performing Wi-Fi network is essential.

If the response times on the network are greater than 10ms, or highly variable, you may experience disruption in audio, usually in the form of audible gaps in playback and/or audio crackling.

To test the condition of the wireless network, begin by testing the ability of any wireless device to reach the router. If a laptop is available, open a command prompt or terminal window and attempt to ping the router. In order to help avoid interference

or wireless range limitations, start by testing the wireless device as close as possible to the wireless router.

If a laptop is not available, you can attempt to ping an iOS device from a wired computer and again check for responsiveness.

You may also attempt to AirPlay directly from iTunes of a wired computer in order to test for any sound trouble.

If you have found the symptoms described above when using Airplay, there are a few available options.

Some routers may be have advanced setup options to allow changes to upload speed and range. If the router is not performing well, it may need to be replaced, firmware updated or moved to a more central location. In cases where range is an issue, a wireless extender or signal booster may help.

Note: MMS Firmware version 1.51 and higher has an additional feature for setting the buffer size available on Airplay streaming higher than the default 2 seconds.


Below are some additional tips for better Airplay connectivity:

• Upgrade your Apple device to the latest iOS version.
• Minimize the number of apps that are running on your iPod touch/iPhone/iPad.
• Minimize the number of Wi-Fi devices on the network.
• Multiple simultaneous activities over wifi in the household (web browsing, file downloads, movie streaming, etc.) can effect AirPlay audio streaming performance.
• If the router offers “Auto Channel Scan” option, enable it. This minimizes Wi-Fi connectivity interference when there are multiple Wi-Fi networks in the vicinity.
• If you are using AirPort Extreme, make sure “802.11n (802.11b/g compatible)” is selected for Radio Mode. Do not select options with “802.11n only”.
• AirPlay performance can be affected if the Apple device is shielded by metallic material. Take off any protective metal case from the Apple device.
• If the router offers “Wireless Intelligent Stream Handling (WISH)” option or “Quality of Service (QoS)” option, consider configuring these to improve AirPlay streaming performance.
• If the Bluetooth feature of any device in the vicinity is on, turn it off.
• Check the firmware version of your router. Please contact your router supplier to upgrade the latest firmware version. "
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post #695 of 761 Old 01-09-2020, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobone View Post
0) If you installed Win7 Pro or similar, skip VNC and use plain Windows remote desktop as it is faster. Google it.

1) Just turn off compatibility mode for all the applications you turned on. Sort by type.

2) For the MPS4, SPDIF is still on the board. You are going to have to do own research, I have never played with SPDIF, but it looks very simple. Three pins: Gnd, SPDIF and +5V.

3) Airplay: There is perhaps some fine-tuning to be made on Telnet port 23 with fresh commands for buffers, etc... found in an attached Excel file in the "Howto" link for Telnet. No-one here has ever used them yet, so we are expecting your feedback... Also search the Autonomic Knowledgebase regarding Airplay as a starter. Make a backup first...

4) Good luck and show us some grit!
Can someone please post a picture of the spif riser on the V1 board. Mine is buttoned up and in a rack and a pain to unmount and get into.
I will buy the necessary connector , I have a dac and lets see what we can come up with. I would like to get better fidelity out of this unit. Comparable with what Mirage is producing.
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post #696 of 761 Old 01-09-2020, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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In the how-to section there is a link to pictures of the boards and more importantly, attached specs.
It's a very standard header. I understand that you only need two pins: Gnd+SPDIF(Signal).
Good that you already have the DAC. I did notice a little stability issue, but it was hopefully temporary. Try with only the SPDIF output first.

Pay special attention to the two xml files mentionned earlier. Save copies and study them.
You may want to set the bitrate on the /Config page or/and directly for the SPDIF device.
In the NuvoBridge tab of the config app, replace one of the Attero outputs that you were using so that you can test seamlessly.
Check the VU meter in the Windows mixer, then connect the DAC.
Once you get the SPDIF working, add back the other outputs in the config app.

Is your idea still to feed another amplifier with the DAC? Later you may want to re-configure the GC/apps/key pads, but not for test purpose.
Does your DAC have a USB input? Would be interesting to try as well.

Last edited by Bobone; 01-09-2020 at 11:54 AM.
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post #697 of 761 Old 01-09-2020, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Menu by Favorites (custom menus in the apps)

For kicks, I just had to take the concept a step further.
It works great!
--> I can now make custom menus in the app.

When I press a special "menu-favorite", new menu items (favorites) get loaded and the old ones are moved out (saved).
That's it! Easy!

How?
0) The core concept is to have the right content (favorites) in this folder: \ProgramData\Autonomic Controls\Data and trigger on favorite selections.

1) Modify the metadata for a newly saved Favorite to make it unique. It's a simple text file that can be edited with notepad, a db3-editor (what I use) or even programmatically for dynamic menus.
- I typically use a silent or "unused" TuneIn radio station as it is faster than loading a mp3.

2) Two ways to detect a Favorite selection:
- The modified metadata for the station comes back on the NuvoBridge to trigger actions. This is fast enough.
- Even faster is to trigger directly on the the Favorite GUID selectoin on port 5004. Issue "SubscribeLog" to get the events.

3) On interaction
- the proper action is triggered as above
- favorites are moved in and out of the Data folder and refreshed.

4) Refresh options:
- manually by selecting any tab in the app, back and forth
- programmitically by selecting another MCS instance: mrad.setsource <sourceid>

I was afraid that swapping in and out Favorites would create havoc as the MCS syncs with the GC, but it does not. At least not during the intervals that I have tested.

Voilà!

Edit: see later post for code examples

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post #698 of 761 Old 01-09-2020, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobone View Post
For kicks, I just had to take the concept a step further.
It works great!
--> I can now make custom menus in the app.

That is a nice hack! I assume it works for MMS-configured GC sources only? Much to experiment with.
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post #699 of 761 Old 01-09-2020, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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That is a nice hack! I assume it works for MMS-configured GC sources only? Much to experiment with.
Yes and no.

- "Favorites" on the NuVo app is only active for MMS sources. For Mirage, I believe it does not matter.
- Also, if you allocate one MMS-source to represent the non-MMS source (e.g. D-server), you can really tailor make menus without much UI disturbance for the user.
- Furthermore, as I wrote in the first post on this topic, it is possible to spawn a virtual server and use it for non-MMS sources for metadata and transport control instead of Nuvo serial protocol.
It requires a little work, but is fully possible.

Last edited by Bobone; 01-09-2020 at 05:03 PM.
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post #700 of 761 Old 01-09-2020, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobone View Post
For kicks, I just had to take the concept a step further.
It works great!
--> I can now make custom menus in the app.

When I press a special "menu-favorite", new menu items (favorites) get loaded and the old ones are moved out (saved).
To refresh, I need to click back and forth between the favorites tab and the one next to it (radio). Both react immediately so it is fast and not a nuisance.
That's it! Easy!

That is amazing, can you post some examples? If you have custom menu items, how do you know if that item was chosen? Does is show in the serial port output?


If you were to update the .db3 favorite file every time a song changes on a non-NNA source could you effectively update the metadata and cover art that way?

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post #701 of 761 Old 01-09-2020, 11:46 PM - Thread Starter
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If you were to update the .db3 favorite file every time a song changes on a non-MCS source could you effectively update the metadata and cover art that way?
Yes, precisely!
Perhaps better to start a queue that you modify on the fly.
Keypad and app transport control would work fine too with some relays.
Again, you can spawn virtual MCS instances for the non-MCS sources.

Last edited by Bobone; 01-22-2020 at 03:16 AM.
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post #702 of 761 Old 01-10-2020, 03:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Content:
- 2 small HS3 subs contained in AppMenus.vb: one to load and one to restore items
- 2 triggers for the serial communication flow to call the subs.
- 2 folders to place in the \Data folder:
o "MenuItems" contains the modified "Back to Favorites" preset ("2345678-0000-0000-0000-000000000001.Preset.db") and a few example menu items.
o "Favorites" is used to store away your favorites for future restoral (make own copies first).
- 1 modified preset "Activate Menu" ("12345678-0000-0000-0000-000000000000.Preset.db3") to be placed directly in the \Data folder

Caveat:
There might be an authorization token for TuneIn stored in the presets in which case you need to save your own and modify them.
The title metadata used for triggering is Base64 encoded, but easy to edit. It is found in the second <url> definition between "n=" and "&".
Search for "TG9hZE1lbnU=" (equals "LoadMenu" in Base64) in "12345678-0000-0000-0000-000000000000.Preset.db" to find where, and replace the Base64 title (can contain ending equal signs) in your own modified preset with "TG9hZE1lbnU=".

Edit:
- Presets can be simplified even further when using Telnet & SubscribeLog. See later posts.

https://www.base64decode.org/
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File Type: zip AppMenu.Zip (11.7 KB, 5 views)
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post #703 of 761 Old 01-10-2020, 10:11 PM
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I am trying to see this in action and have a few questions. I am not using your Homeseer vb scripts so I just thought I could follow the logic from them and copy the db3 files to the right location to see the menu.

I copied 12345678-0000-0000-0000-000000000000.Preset into C:\ProgramData\Autonomic Controls\Data. The 'LoadMenu' item appears in my favorites list, but when I chose it, it does not play (it says 'Failed to get connection from Radio Time' -> probably due to your note about needing to update the embedded authorization token for TuneIn).

I copied the files from MenuItems into C:\ProgramData\Autonomic Controls\Data\MenuItems also. But I did not see the 'diamond' next to LoadMenu to expand a menu down. Does MCS need to think it is actually playing the fake station in order to show the menu items?


How do the files in MenItems know that they belong to a particular parent 'Favorite'?

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post #704 of 761 Old 01-10-2020, 11:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Great, I was hoping that you would try.

1) you need to port the code to your environment to make it work and get a feeling for the performance.
2) pls understand that the refresh step needs a manual intervention. On a V2 and good WiFi, but really old iPhones, it is so fast that it is not annoying, but you still need to leave the fav tab and go back to it: two clicks. We do not know how to force the refresh (yet?).
3) as you trigger on the title name fed back on serial, you do need some media (anything) to start playing. My personal experience, with a good Internet connection, is that Tunein is faster than a mp3 (0.8s vs 2.3s).
4) for testing, you could choose any saved station, just as long as you get back a unique text to trigger on. Long term you want a silent and fast station. Thereafter you can doctor the title.
5) the blue diamond is weird. It only appears a short while and not always. I think it indicates that it is now playing. Did you get any response on serial? Good enough!
4) there is nothing in the presets that associates it with the menu items. This is an illusion created with the removed and loaded items in the /Data folder by code.

The interaction works and given the right conditions is fast enough to enable menus that should be acceptable. Clearly better than nothing.
A user may benefit from knowing that this is a workaround and not native programming.
I hope that you do not get disappointed.

Last edited by Bobone; 01-12-2020 at 03:40 PM.
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post #705 of 761 Old 01-11-2020, 12:53 AM
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Ok, I think I see what you mean. The LoadMenu favorite sits out there all the time. When you play that one, the string 'LoadMenu' appears on the display and your vb script sees this and reacts by copying your normal favorites off to another folder and then replacing them with another set of favorites from the MenuItems folder. And then those appear and can get played printing some other string to the display that the vb script or whatever ever else listening to the serial port can react to.

The key it seems is to first get a favorite setup to play a silent stream. Then you can copy it as many times as necessary and change the name for each copy. But can't you just do the Rename Favorite (found by clicking the wrench icon on the flash app) on a favorite instead of hacking the base64 encoded name in the db3 file?

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post #706 of 761 Old 01-11-2020, 04:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Good summary!

"Failed to get connection from Radio Time" may actually be good news. Check if you are not getting "LoadMenu" first over the NuvoBridge? (The failure message is not an issue. It will get overwritten by your next selection or if you clear the queue.)

Playlists and Favorites have names that differ from contained media. The names are not sent over the NuvoBridge and annoyingly not even as MCS "events" on 5004. You have to find them in the AhEhSrvr log.

Last edited by Bobone; 01-11-2020 at 02:21 PM.
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post #707 of 761 Old 01-12-2020, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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SubscribeLog

I have two additional findings:

1) If you delete the whole radio station URL you obviously get an error but you can possibly shave off up to .5 seconds. The "LoadMenu" metadata still goes through.

2) More importantly for this and many applications, I have found an undocumented Telnet command: "SubscribeLog".
This command pipes the MCS log continuously to port 5004.
Setting up a Telnet session and triggering on MCS logs works fine!

Given the amount spewed out I was afraid of performance issues, but have not observed any (yet).
On the contrary, it is now possible to reduce response time by almost a second compared to the NuvoBridge loop.

With the MCS log, we can now trigger on activity and not only on results: the content of the "Favorite" can be almost empty except for an arbitrary track or station guid. —> no error message.
Excerpt from log: "[email protected]:57253<--PlayFavorite 0000000-0000-0000-0000-99999999001" (station guid, not preset guid)
Attached Files
File Type: txt 12345678-0000-0000-0000-000000000000.Preset.db3.txt (9.0 KB, 2 views)

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post #708 of 761 Old 01-13-2020, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobone View Post
Please do not quote this post as it will be edited for improvements.

Second iteration to configure servers
Warning: the web pages for configuration at http:\\{your MPS4's ip-address}\Config are very sensitive.
The "Source Settings" tab is toxic and making any selection will require you to redo the first iteration.
Carefully:
1) Firmware tab: Check that your license looks ok.
2) Content tab: Set your online credentials first, and thereafter hide the music services that you will not need.
3) Content tab: Press Save - make sure that it "processes".
4) Wait a little moment and check your apps if the SW works and the MPS4 delivers music. If not, reboot.

You should now be rocking!

Third and final iteration
As an additional feature, you can define zone-based speaker selection from music apps for AirPlay & Spotify Connect :
0) Save reference copies of MRAD.config and MCE Control Server.
1) Open web page \\ipaddr\Config and select "Source settings" tab
  • “Server Audio Outputs” should look nice with four output-input pairs. Otherwise you need to go to the first iteration.
  • At the very bottom, you will find the same four sources to enable for Airplay
2) In “Audio System”, select "Other Mirage Amp". This will destroy your current MRAD.config settings.
3) The Airplay settings should now get populated with your zones. Select which zones to appear in music apps.
  • A great new function! On some older phones, the number and order of Spotify Connect zones that finally appear varies.
4) Now, in “Audio System” select “None”. Necessary, but not enough to restore the correct MRAD.config settings.
5) No need to save. The zone selection(s) are flagged in the registry as soon as you modify them. Kill browser tab
6) Restore MRAD.config
  • Either by re-configuring the Config applet as in the first iteration or from your MRAD.config copy
7) Reboot

Enjoy!

Hi Bob,


I finally got around to upgrading my MPS4Ev2 - made a clean install (formatted the 1 TB SSD I had put in) with Windows 7 Starter Edition (in order to make it lighter on the CPU and RAM), then installed from the Nuvo "standalonesetup.exe" file and everything worked REALLY well. I have to admit the MPS4Ev2 with the Win 7 (2 GB RAM only!) is a really stable setup - much more so than the "factory" WinXP setup. I then proceeded to update the system to version 5.3 primarily because I really wanted to regain the Spotify options. The procedure you described worked well. Everything is up and running. The only glitch I am experiencing is the lack of browser configuration capability. I cannot open the http:\\{MPS4's ip-address}\Config page. Interestingly enough, the http:\\{MPS4's ip-address}\Mirage page works and I can control playback from a browser, but cannot change any settings. I also connect to the server through the mobile app. I cannot load the page "\\ipaddr\Config" you refer to either. Any ideas what this may be due to and how to fix it? I need to input my Spotify premium subscription credentials somewhere. Is there another way (editing some config files on the machine itself)? Thanks in advance for any input you may have.


Best wishes for the new year and thank you again for all the efforts you put into this!


Nicola
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post #709 of 761 Old 01-13-2020, 04:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you Nicola!
Great that you have come this far! I also run on 2GB, works fine.

Check if the RemoteConfig service is running.
Or, firewall status in Config app.
Quote:
Ensure that services are running
1) Open \task manager\services tab and press Services button or run services.msc from CMD
2) Control that the two Autonomic Services are running
  • If not, set \properties\Log-on: "Local System account" and start the services. Reboot if they fail again.
3) Keep an eye on the Bonjour service as well.
Since you are upgrading from 5.0, don't forget a recent learning to avoid memory leaks: uncheck WinXP compatibility mode for all applications.

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post #710 of 761 Old 01-14-2020, 02:19 AM
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Thank you Nicola!
Great that you have come this far! I also run on 2GB, works fine.

Check if the RemoteConfig service is running.
Or, firewall status in Config app.

Since you are upgrading from 5.0, don't forget a recent learning to avoid memory leaks: uncheck WinXP compatibility mode for all applications.

Thanks for the prompt reply! I have followed your instructions fully and did all that, but cannot access the config webpage through a browser. It seems like the "Config" section is no longer defined in the IIS database of the MPS4 after the upgrade (the pages "Content.aspx", "Machine.aspx", "Sources.aspx", "Display.aspx" and "Schedule.aspx" are not accessible from a web browser). The "Mirage" section is new (added after the ver 5.3 install) and is obviously properly defined and accessible. Probably the upgrade process changed the IIS content table. I am not a big computer expert, but that's what it looks like to me. I am raising this flag in case anybody else encounters the same issue during the upgrade process to version 5.3+.


Does anybody have any idea how I can add the config pages to the IIS table, so they can be loaded through a browser? Or, alternatively, how I can add Spotify logon details through another method, like editing specific config files or using local or remote commands?


I have not read all the posts related to upgrading to the MSC ver 5.3 here, but the concept of a second web config site "\\ipaddr\config" is baffling. What is this and how is this accessed? I cannot load such a page on my local IP network.
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post #711 of 761 Old 01-14-2020, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
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"\\ipaddr\config" was just short for the same address that you have tested.

Hmm..
- so the config service is running?
- the config app firewall status “green”?
- Have you tried turning windows firewall off entirely?
- local web browser with http://127.0.0.1/config?
- telnet port 23?

A few dozen posts ago there was a discussion around a similar problem with WinXP. A lacking function added with Vista was the reason. Could Win7 Starter edition be an issue?
- try finding the same error in the logs.
- In general, look at the installation log for errors
- look at config log and ahehsrvr log for errors when trying to reach the config page.

Logging into Spotify w/o is probably quite difficult. Need to find the right token to do it manually.

Last edited by Bobone; 01-14-2020 at 08:12 AM.
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post #712 of 761 Old 01-14-2020, 09:16 AM
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Cool

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Originally Posted by Bobone View Post
- so the config service is running?
- the config app firewall status “green”?
- Have you tried turning windows firewall off entirely?
- local web browser with http://127.0.0.1/config?
- telnet port 23?

The config service is running. The firewall status is green. Tried with the firewall off too. The local web browser on the MPS4Ev2 cannot open http://127.0.0.1/config either. I had everything working perfectly with version 5.0 prior to upgrading to version 5.3+, so it's probably not due to some limitation of the Win 7 Starter edition. I tried uninstalling and reinstalling the MCS software with no luck. I get the following message trying to open a telnet connection to the MSP4v2: "Access Denied: Specified user is not a member of TelnetClients group. Server administrator must add this user to the above group. Telnet Server has closed the connection." Previously I was able to use Telnet port 23 to access the MCS server and querry/change settings..


I have a spare MPS4Ev1, which I use for testing. The funny thing is, I just went through the same upgrade path with it (1TB SSD, 2 GB RAM, Win 7 Starter Edition, MCS ver 5.0, then MCS ver 5.3+) - and it worked perfectly. Now I use my first gen MSP4 Elite instead of the second gen machine. Will probably wipe the disk of the ver 2 MPS4E and do a clean install with MCS ver 5.3+ over Win 7. The whole process is very well documented here thanks to you guys and even a diletante like me can do it in less than an hour now. Will report any glitches.


Edit: Made a clean install of MCS ver 5.3+ over Win 7 Starter (had to format the system partition of the SSD and re-install everything) on the MPS4Ev2 and now it works like a charm Had to copy the old license file from the ver 5.0 Nuvo install to make it work. Then proceeded with the Spotify activation and the definition of Spotify zones according to Bob's instructions. Amazing! Now every Nuvo zone in my residence is a separate Spotify connect speaker device and can receive sound directed from any mobile device with the Spotify app installed! Metadata on the keypads and all (with image support for the CTP36 too). This setup really gives the fine legacy Nuvo product line a new lease on life for me. And all it took was an update from Autonomic and a year of blood, sweat and tears from a number of dedicated Nuvo acolytes Thank you guys!
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Last edited by nyankov; 01-18-2020 at 01:40 AM.
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post #713 of 761 Old 01-16-2020, 12:45 AM
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After going through with the ver 5.3+ upgrade on the MPS4E and activating all zones as Spotify connect speaker devices, I paused for a second to think about the business side of it all. It looks like Autonomic was actually the creator and is still the owner of all the comm protocols and software bits and pieces, and not Nuvo. The new Autonomic software is still able to control flawlessly the legacy "Nuvo" Grand Concerto or Essentia G systems - utilizing NuvoNet communication, propagating metadata and effecting full legacy zone control, but also creating new functionalities like lighting zones up as Spotify connect devices, for example. In fact, when one sets up MRAD zones in the Autonomic “Sources” web interface, one chooses “other Mirage amp” instead of Nuvo in the dropdown What Legrand bought was probably only the hardware (amp) patents and the "Nuvo" brand. And they didn't do a great job at putting those to good use either. That explains the complete discontinuity between the old Nuvo whole-home audio product line and the new Player series. It was a beautiful cooperation while it lasted. The support for the legacy products (Grand Concerto, Essentia G, MSP4, NV Tuners etc.) should be sought from Autonomic Controls and not Legrand. These are Autonomic products, as far as operating systems and comm protocols are concerned. The sound processing and hardware part is probably with Legrand now, but without the software support they cannot be very helpful and efficient, even if they wanted. Hence the end of the line for those excellent products. However, with the upgrade path for the MPS4 now clear and tested (Autonomic MCS ver 5.3+ over Win 7, hardware upgrades like SSD and RAM, possible integration of data and control for third-party sound sources through various platforms like HomeSeer), the value proposition of the new Legrand Player series comes close to zero for owners of existing Grand Concerto and Essentia G systems. The legacy systems are much more robust, dependable, arguably producing better and more powerful sound, more flexible and versatile, allowing for virtually unlimited combinations of sound sources and streaming services, with superior hardwired zone control at that. Hardware support for the amps is the only questionmark here, but with the ample availability of relatively cheap second-hand hardware on places like ebay, replacement of defective parts or pieces of the system should not be an issue for years to come. Conclusion: a Nuvo Grand Concerto / Grand Essentia system with an upgraded MPS4 is a great premium-quality and at the same time low-cost whole-home audio solution. If one is inventive, one can probably loop several of those systems together, feeding sound and data from one 12/16-zones setup to the others, producing ultimately a larger high-quality multizone platform for use in complex commercial spaces and settings. Buying a GC+MPS4 combo complete with the necessary EZ-Port plate from ebay, upgrading the MPS4 and gifting the setup to friends moving into new homes or renovating existing residences would be great. With the upgraded MPS4 wallpads are no longer a must, although having them is really nice.
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Last edited by nyankov; 01-18-2020 at 01:35 AM.
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post #714 of 761 Old 01-16-2020, 02:49 AM - Thread Starter
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I fully agree that we possess a very, very good system. Premium! Perhaps audiophiles will never ever be content, but it is good enough for me and certainly one of the most versatile that can be found.

Having looked into the core of both systems, I think that the result is due to good integration. Nuvo's wired product line stood for high quality and the Nuvonet + protocols are definitely theirs, but the MPS4 was a cooperation project that created an intelligent bridge between Autonomic, the "IP world" and Nuvo. When looking into the MCS software you notice how deep the cooperation was. It is really a shame for everyone that it did not continue! However, we are very lucky that the Nuvo integration was kept in 5.35, despite the deal with Legrand.

In this forum we do not know much about the MMSe apart from that it runs on Linux, has the same code base as the MMSa and can be integrated with other multi-room audio devices (MRAD!). With extraordinary luck the NuvoBridge still works and the NNA card in the MPS4 could be reutilized. Otherwise, I would a little boldy claim that its probably possible to make a new NuvoBridge. @xs10shl has in a way already started on the foundation. On the other hand, I think that the timing of a full MMSe-bridge project would coincide with the death of our panels making the exercise slightly pointless.

What I hope less for, is that someone starts making serious business out of the possibilities that we have discovered together. Mainly because we are in the hands of Autonomic for future updates. They are now getting lots of positive goodwill in this forum, eventually leading to more Autonomic sales, but it could be seen as a business liability if second-hand volumes were to grow on behalf of their newer systems.
I am all for helping other stranded Nuvo MPS4 owners or gifting them to friends!
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Last edited by Bobone; 01-16-2020 at 08:36 AM.
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post #715 of 761 Old 01-18-2020, 02:07 AM
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I was wondering whether anybody has experimented with the NuvoBridge connection settings in the MCS ver 5.35 config software. There is an option there to use a TCP/IP channel instead of a com port. Do you think one can direct NuvoNet commands to an IP/serial adapter (configured with the proper baud rate and other parameters) on the same network (or tunnel through to another network for that matter) and feed NuvoNet data from the MPS4 to the EZPort/Allport through that device (using a standard RJ45/RS485 converter), instead of using a standard CAT5 cable for direct connection between the MPS4 and the EZPort? If that were possible, then the need to use the NNA card in the MPS4 would disappear (NuvoNet data will be sent over the IP network and fed to the GC or EG amps and wallpads through the IP/serial adapter). Which means the need to use a MPS4 will disappear, as one could probably install the MCS ver 5.35 server software on another (newer, better and faster) Win 7 PC with a good (even better than the MPS4's) multichannel sound card, using the old Nuvo license file. The options from there on will be limitless. One would only need an old MPS4 to start with, in order to extract a valid MCS server license.

NuvoNet (NuvoBridge) support is a software piece which is optional when installing the MCS ver 5.35. Mirage MMS-2A/5A servers do not have a built-in NNA card or a dedicated NuvoNet port. And yet they seem to come with the software tools to fully control a Nuvo GC/EG system. Which means they are probably meant to control it through an IP channel. Which means that a stand-alone PC running the Autonomic MCS server software with NuvoBridge could probably do it too. Which would be sacrilige

What do you think?

Last edited by nyankov; 01-18-2020 at 04:42 AM.
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post #716 of 761 Old 01-18-2020, 05:43 AM
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The MMS relies on the extended nuvonet protocols in order to work, so you’d need to communicate to the GC via an NNA somehow. One option would be to use something like a DigiOne and an NV-MP as your NuVo gateway.
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post #717 of 761 Old 01-18-2020, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by xs10shl View Post
The MMS relies on the extended nuvonet protocols in order to work, so you’d need to communicate to the GC via an NNA somehow. One option would be to use something like a DigiOne and an NV-MP as your NuVo gateway.
I admit I only casually mused about the logic behind this setup, but what do you think the IP option for the NuvoBridge connection in the MCS configuration is for? Has anybody found a “help file” or a technical document issued by Autonomic, explaining the nature and purpose of all options in the MCS configurator? Anyway, if anybody has a handy IP/serial adapter with an RJ45/RS485 converter and some spare time, might be interesting to test what happens when you configure the MCS server’s “NuvoBridge” to send data through it to the EZPort. Frankly, I am far from the skill level and expertise (to mention nothing of the dedication to this project) many of the people in this forum have, but it just seems odd that the Autonomic MMS-5A/2A servers will have a NuvoBridge option with an IP connection without having a built-in NNA like the MPS4, if you would actually need a NNA to use it. What possible use would it have? I don’t think they meant it for people having spare NNAs lying around. And the MCS ver 5.35 server software is definitely still coded to fully control a Nuvo GC/EG system. Or is the NuvoBridge IP connection option in the MCS server configurator meant for something completely different which I do not understand? The COM 1/2 port connection options seem clear with an internal or external NNA. But an IP connection to NuvoNet?

Last edited by nyankov; 01-18-2020 at 01:01 PM.
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post #718 of 761 Old 01-18-2020, 07:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Very good questions and ideas!
Here are some thoughts:

1) I try to avoid calling the ‘Nuvo serial control’ protocol on RS232 for NuvoNet as it is not at all the same as on the RS485 used by all the devices connected to the EZ-port and labeled ‘NuvoNet’ by Nuvo. NuvoNet is very different:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/36-ho...-protocol.html
An IP-RS485 adapter will not help without some intelligence to form a bridge between the two protocols. I do not know if such intelligence is to be found in the MCS Nuvobridge software, but I really doubt it. What we have seen it produce is Nuvo serial protocol. A bridge between MCS protocol and Nuvo serial protocol.

2) For the time being, the NNA is the necessary bridge between (extended) Nuvo serial protocol for e.g. menus and NuvoNet protocol. At least until we have managed to create our own bridge. It can’t be that hard, but still hard enough! Hopefully someone cracks NuvoNet.
Furthermore rs232 is used between the NNA and the GC/EG for basic transport control using standard Nuvo serial protocol. That could be done over IP.

3) the Nuvo card in the MPS4 is actually two combined: a USB based sound card from Attero tech and a NNA from Nuvo. Although I have never tried, it should be possible to run them separately; or just disable the Attero card. NNAs are also found as NV-MPs.

4) For higher sound fidelity I see three paths forward for MPS4 owners:
- use the spdif output. Hopefully @nhollis succeeds and can tell us more
- plug in a (USB) sound card directly on the board and unplug the Nuvo card’s USB connection while keeping the serial one.
- plug in an external USB sound card.
Our license may or may not set some limitations on the amount and type of outputs installed. Still unclear (see previous posts on this topic).

I am no expert but may have picked up that newer sound cards rely on usb 3.0 for better sound. That logic could be the reason for the V2 Nuvo card to be connected to a PCI slot and not USB, but I am really out of my league here.

A second note is that I have no clue regarding which granularity the GC is working at. At some point, the sound card’s precision becomes irrelevant. I understand that this can be tested by plugging in a source to the GC and increasing the bit depth to a point when the sound disappears. Have never tried.
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Last edited by Bobone; 01-18-2020 at 04:00 PM.
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post #719 of 761 Old 01-18-2020, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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One option would be to use something like a DigiOne and an NV-MP as your NuVo gateway.
Not sure I understand? Could you please elaborate a little?
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post #720 of 761 Old 01-18-2020, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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The options from there on will be limitless.
I am curious for my own inspiration what you would like to do?
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