We are building a new house and trying to decide on numerous AV/HA/Network/Security bits. Our likely AV provider is recommending either a Crestron HA + Crestron Matrix or Elan HA + AV ProConnect AC-MX88 matrix. Both Matrix systems get quite expensive w/ frame, $1000 i/o cards + $995 HD-BaseT extenders at each location. I think each is about $20k when all said and done.

The sources we currently use are mostly cable (Comcast), Apple TV and Surveillance System. We'd like BD players in Rec & Family rooms but rarely use hard media anymore so we'd likely not miss these and could just do one locally in the LL Rec.

Locations include; LL Rec Room (pseudo theatre), LL Exercise (can be combined w/ LL Rec Room), Family Room, Kitchen, Master Bed, Master Bath, Wife Office, My Office, Guest 1, Guest 2, Studio.

I'm thinking that some or all locations can maybe just have a local Apple TV and use Hulu or similar for cable channels. A Surveillance/NVR app that works on Apple TV might be an issue though. For an office with audio from the TV or a small local audio system this shouldn't be a problem. For others that s/b part of a whole house audio system we could perhaps backhaul the audio from a local Apple TV to an audio matrix for redistribution so that whole house audio sources can be mixed in and more easily controlled?

I think an AV matrix made sense when cable companies were charging quite exorbitant monthly fees for each cable box and video was VGA. I'm not sure how much sense these make these days.

Thanks,

I think you’re on the right track. Apple TVs locally are a good idea, as the hardware required for a distributed matrix system will outweigh just getting individual ones.

For cable/satellite tv, a video matrix is a great option!


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have a look at Video Storm - their netplay product is fantastic and it can work with Crestron, Elan or other home automation systems. It is a fraction of the cost to what you are quoting above. I have netplay pro with Control4 and it just flat out 100% works. You can still put Apple TV's locally at each tv and just distribution cable boxes and other media. It is just me and my wife with 5 TV's in the house, so we just distribute everything via the Netplay matrix. Its nice because it can show IP cameras, text on screen, PiP, etc - as an example, when my front door rings, if a TV is on, in the lower right hand corner I get a live video feed of the front door camera for 10 seconds so I can see who is out there.

Check out Wyrestorm Matrix, I use them for budget projects when Crestron DM is out of the budget. There are modules and drivers available for both Crestron and ELAN.

I would also ask your integrator about Crestron NVX if you are going with an IP solution. They have a 4K60 4:4:4 solution that works really well, it is a little pricey depending on the configuration but if you want 4K60 4:4:4 it is the cheapest option out there because it can be used in gigabit network switches vs most others that a 10gbe. It is all about what you are looking to accomplish.

In my eyes if you are already thinking about using an integrator to handle this, go with the centralized system. You can put a couple cable boxes and a couple media boxes (I use Apple TV, Roku, and Fire TV). The nice thing is down the road if something new and better comes along you are only buying 1 or 2 of them instead of swapping out every one behind the TVs. Also makes distributing Security and BRD around the house much easier as well as giving you more flexibility moving forward.

Thanks all.

Something I keep thinking about is that a $179 Apple TV makes a better balun than $2k HD-BaseT baluns. I don't see the need for video matrix distribution anymore. At least for us.

We will need to figure out how to control the Apple TV's in some rooms w/ HA system. I'd initially ruled out C4 due to numerous issues we've had but they are doing much more to allow end-user control and configuration vs Crestron, Elan and others so we may decide to risk some of the less than perfect bits of C4.

We'll also need to send the audio from some of the Apple TV's down to the media rack.

does that audio from the ATV down to the media rack need to be in sync? If so you may need a matrix. Just an FYI.

Example: If you have an AFT in the living room, run the wire back to the media closet and plug the audio into an amp to play the audio on the patio it may not be in sync. not a big deal if outside, but if in an adjacent room (a kitchen) it could be an issue. That is why Video Storm has lip sync delay built into their Audio Matrix.

That's a great point on sync. In some cases that will be an issue like the Family Room + Kitchen that will be from the same source (Family Room ATV) and so video + audio s/b in sync for these.

AFT for local control in a local room is fine and no need for a matrix. start to want to share sources, have sources in sync both video and audio, then you start getting more complex and that is where a matrix can shine

for video storm they obviously pair their video matrix and audio matrix with a lip sync delay function so it all just seamlessly works.

So you'll have 11 potential TV locations?

Have your dealer quote you a JAP system instead of an HDMI HDBaseT Matrix. When you get past 8 sources/8 zones, the HDBaseT route becomes more cost prohibitive compared to an IP based system like the JAP.

At the end of the day I prefer, and often recommend to our clients, to avoid sticking multiple boxes of any kind at each TV location.

I'm using the apple tv in rooms and using the apple tv remote for control of functions at this point. There really is not much better than that at this moment as simplicity generally wins out over all of the home automation stuff you could spend the money on. I have all my libraries on apple tv / apple music so every apple tv becomes a full hub without any other connections besides a wired ethernet connection. Apple tv would be even better if it did power over ethernet but it works great on wireless too.

I install quite a bit of Crestron DM these days, they are a great platform and a rock solid product. They also just released the first and only 4K60 4:4:4 fixed chassis solution (they helped develop the 4K60 4:4:4 HDbaseT chipset and have an exclusive right for the next couple years on them). For the money check out Wyrestorm for fixed chassis matrix, they make some great 8x8 and 16x16 4K matrix and have modules or drivers for both Elan or Crestron. They are my go to for budget projects. I don't see a reason to go with an IP based solution for something this small.

At the end of the day a matrix will be more expensive, but will simplify the entire setup and should be cheaper on the programming end. If I am putting a matrix in I will typically charge less than having to program each room individually. It is also a lot cheaper to maintain as there is less gear to swap out when the next must have device comes out.

Thanks.

Isn't one problem with the 'next thing that comes along' requiring the swapping out of 17 Apple TV's @$179/ea that it may also require swapping out Matrix I/O cards @ $1200/ea and Baluns @ $998/ea or even the entire chassis ?

Chances are that most of the local Apple TV's (or Roku's or whatever) will be fine for a decade or more. It's primarily the Family Room & Rec Room with larger higher quality displays that would likely benefit from the next gen Apple TV.

This is a very good point. While I prefer the Nvida Shield's to Apple TV's, the investment and flexibility in control that comes from having the media streaming devices at the edge is very high. I would do the pre-wiring in a way that can support moving to switching in the future if needed, but it's a much easier system to control and manage this way.

thx
mike

This is definitely something to take into consideration, but with the DM you get what you pay for in that aspect. I can run any numbers of inputs and output cards I want in any configuration. At this point I am only running a few 4K60 4:4:4 (DM-4KZ is what they call them), and I can upgrade as I see fit over time. I only have a couple 4K sources so the other standard 1080P inputs cards I have still work fine for those sources.

As far as future proofing, the basic DM chassis is over 10 years old at this point without a redesign and have enough backplane bandwidth to handle 8K content so they should be around for a while.

The matrix route also it gives you the option of having any input available at any output. You probably won't need it, but it is nice to be able to kick the game on around the house as I am working and not have to sit in one spot and watch it.

As far as IP goes, it is definitely a lot more cost effective once you get up to the higher I/O counts. I have a couple thousand JAP end points and about 1500 Wyrestorm NHD endpoints out in the wild. I definitely prefer the Wyrestorm stuff over JAP if you are going to go that route, but I really wouldn't be looking at that stuff if I am using anything under a 16x16 matrix unless there was a very specific reason (limited cabling available or need a random matrix size on a very fixed budget).

We're one month in with a trial at our existing house and so far so good. This is effectively cord cutting. We've four Apple TV's with Hulu + Live TV for most of our programming. We have missed the xfinity's better channel guide and it was easier to do stuff with the xfinity IOS app but these aren't deal breakers. We also don't have Bloomberg and are debating getting Sling for that but my guess is that we'll likely not spend that money. All of the other channels we routinely watch are available in Hulu.

Our Blu-Ray player is now fixed in one location but we can live with that for the extremely few times we use it.

The only issue that we may encounter is what to do for guests who don't have their own streaming app. I'll have to explore guest access to Hulu one of these days.

The cost savings for our new house will be significant. Up front cost savings of $22,233. That's after costs for backhauling audio to the rack for amps and distribution. I'd not planned on monthly savings from cord cutting so that's about $111/mo (should just about cover Wine, beer and Scotch).

Overall a much more sensible system. I can't see a future for video Matrix systems. At one time they were a good solution for sharing expensive cable boxes around the house but those days appear to be gone.

I know I sound like a broken record but there are more modern/flexible DIY Matrix available. Video Storm allows you to BYO Hardware. So you can use a Shield TV as the decoder so you get your Hulu but you can share your BluRay player or other sources that you may not want at every location. Furthermore you can integrate IP cameras, Splash tiles, multi screen PiP, text overlay, etc. You can also use their IRUSB device so you can control the TV or AVR with an IR Bud. Its not needed for every situation, but the fixed AxB HdbaseT Matrix or even some of the more dealer only IP Distribution systems are becoming a bit tougher of a sell but VS Netplay is 100% DIY and you get your own hardware so it makes it easily and affordable if those extra features are something you want (I agree, it may not be needed)

I think nice features but I don't see them worth the cost. And I'm not sure they're exclusive to a matrix system. IP cameras are easily available with apps on ATV. I've rarely used PIP so that's not a huge item for me. I'd also expect it to come along one day for ATV anyway.

For us there is really no need to share the Blu-Ray as it's only used a few times a year for a book club and I'm hoping that we'll graduate to streaming one of these days.

Bottom fifth for text, weather or whatever would be nice. There is no reason that this can't be done with ATV though I'm not aware of an app for it.

I have a 10 year old Crestron whole house automation system. It is an analog system using RCA connections rather than Ethernet. I have a large home with 5 TVs. Currently i distribute CATV via three Direct TV boxes. I control CATV content via Crestron remotes -- the older large brick type. I can only watch streaming content via an old DVD player that has Netflix. I want to eliminate Direct TV and have access to streamed content on each TV.

I want to reconfigure the system so that I can use Apple TV to distribute video to each TV but still use the Crestron system for audio control. Is there a cost effective way to achieve this goal? Can you recommend a product that will accomplish this without having to scrap the Crestron system which cost me a lot of money to install?

I realize this post is from last year, but just wondering if you have moved onto the new Crestron NVX (video over IP) system ? They released a residential version that is less costly (DM-NVX-E30 and D30) for encoding sources at the rack, and decoding at your TV, respectively. Very nice scalable system, must better than HDMI matrix. And all over 1 Gbps Ethernet !


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I just did a large commercial projects (Sports Bar here in LA) that was a 23 Input x 200 Output 4K system all with NVX and it has been rock solid. The switching infrastructure gets pricey when you start getting into 40Gb and 100Gb networks, but it works great.

As far as the resi side, I haven't installed any NVX in residential yet. It would definitely be an option for larger systems or something with very lopsided inputs vs outputs, but I would stick with a conventional HDBaseT matrix for anything under 16x16. Once you get over 16x16 it becomes more economical.

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It is a bit off topic and your own question in someone else's thread. You should start your own thread and you will get more responses.

That said, if you currently are using a PVID distribution system using component HD video, then you will need a HDMI to component video adapter with an audio extractor for almost all new HDMI sources to add them to your system. You will lose surround sound in your distributed setup, which likely isn't much of a loss.

If half those terms meant nothing to you, then you will need to call in someone who knows their stuff, or you will need to start doing a lot of homework.

You will always want your original source code from the installers to have available, and a much more accurate list of how your home is setup.

There is really no need for a Matrix in most residential situations these days. The primary advantage is being able to have the same thing on multiple TVs in sync (say Superbowl party), but is that worth $20k?

Make sure that you've got a MINIMUM of 2x RG-6 and 2x CAT-6 per room, or even per contiguous wall in larger rooms so that you'll have flexibility in the future to relocate equipment either centrally or to the individual TVs, whether you want streaming, pay TV, OTA, etc. And in MN, make sure you've got really good insulation that's at least double code, some way of dealing with thermal bridging, whether double wall or an extra layer of foam, and good air sealing.

I just built a new house and didn’t wire any RG6 cable at all. Cable is dead. Or land line telephone wire. Every TV location got two Cat 6 cables. Every TV gets its own AppleTV and soundbar. Each Appletv has Netflix and also the AT&TV app already logged in so our guests can watch whatever they want on TV. But the new TVs these days have all the apps built into them so you do not really need an AppleTV or other seperate streaming device if you want to keep it simple. MHDMI matrix systems are dinosaurs, I just tore one out of my old house and sold it for $150.

You screwed up royally on that one. Not sure what you smoking when you figured that one out. RG-6 is a widely used standard, and it should be obvious to anyone who knows anything about technology that you want to have the same wiring as everyone else, which is a LOT of RG-6. Modern good building practice requires a bare minimum of 2x RG-6 and 2x CAT-6 to every room for new construction or major renovations.

Not sure this is needed in 2020. Cat5 /6 for sure. But rg-6 will be dead in 5 years. Even major cable providers are using Ethernet to distribute the signal after it arrives.


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RG-6 will be the default way to distribute signals throughout the house for a very, very long time just because millions of homes already have it. Some systems may also be able to use Ethernet, but RG-6 will be the default, and some systems may only work with RG-6, because it is a safe assumption that virtually every house already has RG-6 in place. Anyone who goes against that is an idiot, as it doesn't cost much of anything to add RG-6 when building or remodeling. RG-6 is also useful for OTA, which will be around, at least for the foreseeable future. No one in their right mind would argue against putting both RG-6 AND CAT-5e/6 in place when wiring a new home or addition.