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post #2971 of 5857 Old 04-20-2018, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
I fully agree with your sentiment that we should try our best to reproduce the content as near to the encoding as possible - warts and all! However, please double check that you honor the Y channel just as much as the CbCr channels. I did not suggest desaturation to hide Mad Max encoding bugs. The one and only reason why I've suggested that is because it's the only possible way to reproduce the Y channel correctly in extreme (and rare) cases like some of the Mad Max frames.

(Did you receive my email? I've gone into a lot more detail in the email. If you haven't received it, please check your spam folder, thanks.)
I did not receive your email and searching our SPAM filter emails has proven ineffective. I will send a private message. I certainly appreciate your comments on the Pro's HDR IM and want to continue our conversation.

======

Your question leads me to believe you are doing Tone Mapping in YCbCr or perhaps HSL color space. I'm guessing YCbCr given it seems you are using the pixel-processor in a graphics card. I considered one of these two color spaces for the Pro Tone Mapping but instead choose linear-Gamma RGB. I can say that after the suggestion to desaturate brighter colors, I have already considered adding a conversion to/from HSL or YCbCr as a way to desaturate the bright colors.

However, for the same reason special effects are generated in Linear Gamma RGB, I choose to do the Tone Mapping in Linear Gamma RGB to preserve the color saturation. I do have some thoughts on how to allow desaturation and still not impede colorists from using highly saturated colors.

====

Another point I would like to make is that Mad Max Fury Road was mastered on a 4000 nit Pulsar monitor. In the "Lightning scene" (28:53) the MaxCLL is over 9900, and the maximum linear Y is over 4000 nits which in turn is beyond the capabilities of the monitor to accurately represent (this point has already been made by Kris Deering).

The net effect of this is it may be that the colorist did not notice that the pixels in the lightning and exhaust flames have so much cyan in them because the monitor was crushing the color saturation out for the pixels due to being over driven. We can't know exactly what was seen by the colorists, but it seems likely to me that this is a factor with this scene. I have asked a friend to look at this "lightning scene" on a pulsar monitor to see if the colors do get desaturated due to the pixel brightness. On the other hand if you look at the color of a propane flame the hottest part is cyan which I am certain the colorist knew. So the large amount of cyan in the exhaust flame may be intentional.

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post #2972 of 5857 Old 04-20-2018, 01:54 AM
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Would it be possible to add this desaturation as a user number like the other IM variables, even if just ON/OFF? Then those who want accuracy can defeat it, and those who want to tweak subjectivty can do so?

Just want to say that one of the reasons I choose Lumagen is not only because you do things best but because I know you guys always do things correctly, and that is really important to me.

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post #2973 of 5857 Old 04-21-2018, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
> 2000 shape 4 transition 11 gamma 2
< 2000 shape 3 transition 7 gamma 2
I'm curious. May I ask you how you determine your settings? Do you take scenes (or patterns) you know or do you measure them in some way?

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post #2974 of 5857 Old 04-21-2018, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
I'm curious. May I ask you how you determine your settings? Do you take scenes (or patterns) you know or do you measure them in some way?
I've measured them, but that typically only gets me so far. Mainly I have a LOT of go to scenes that have been troublesome for one reason or another and try to find the best balance to give a pleasing image with no obvious artifacts.
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post #2975 of 5857 Old 04-21-2018, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I've measured them, but that typically only gets me so far. Mainly I have a LOT of go to scenes that have been troublesome for one reason or another and try to find the best balance to give a pleasing image with no obvious artifacts.
Thank you.
My last attempts took three steps. First I measured different combinations to come close to my preferred curve. Afterwards I had to fine tune those settings to get the clipping right. And the last step was checking them against different scenes.
After trying different recommended settings for IM, I think it is like taking the same calibration settings from one display/projector for another.
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post #2976 of 5857 Old 04-21-2018, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
Thank you.
My last attempts took three steps. First I measured different combinations to come close to my preferred curve. Afterwards I had to fine tune those settings to get the clipping right. And the last step was checking them against different scenes.
After trying different recommended settings for IM, I think it is like taking the same calibration settings from one display/projector for another.


I don’t think it is quite as drastic as similar calibration settings as there are more variables there. I think settings will change more depending on peak display value. What settings have you found work best for you? What is your measured peak white?


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post #2977 of 5857 Old 04-21-2018, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I don’t think it is quite as drastic as similar calibration settings as there are more variables there. I think settings will change more depending on peak display value. What settings have you found work best for you? What is your measured peak white?
My peak white is 113 Nits. To get to the results I described here
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vid...l#post56042700
I used the following settings:
Max Display Light 700
<=2000 Ratio -1, Shape 4, Transition 15, Gamma 0, Black 0
>2000 Ratio -1, Shape 3, Transition 15, Gamma 0, Black 0

I'm just trying to decide on another group of settings for <=2000 that get me closer to my reference at the upper end but are a bit darker between 50 and 70%.
Ratio 0, Shape 7, Transition 14, Gamma 0, Black 0
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post #2978 of 5857 Old 04-21-2018, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
My peak white is 113 Nits. To get to the results I described here
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vid...l#post56042700
I used the following settings:
Max Display Light 700
<=2000 Ratio -1, Shape 4, Transition 15, Gamma 0, Black 0
>2000 Ratio -1, Shape 3, Transition 15, Gamma 0, Black 0

I'm just trying to decide on another group of settings for <=2000 that get me closer to my reference at the upper end but are a bit darker between 50 and 70%.
Ratio 0, Shape 7, Transition 14, Gamma 0, Black 0
Does that say how did you get from the 113 nits to the 700 max display light value?
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post #2979 of 5857 Old 04-21-2018, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland Janus View Post
Does that say how did you get from the 113 nits to the 700 max display light value?
I would like the IM ST.2084 curve to look like the one I created with LightSpace. For LightSpace I use a projection muliplier of 5. IM also uses some kind of multiplier for Max Display Light. When I remember correctly it wasn't specified how to find a suitable multiplier. Gordon wrote some time ago to start at 800 and decrease it until you are satisfied with brightness.
So to match the nit-for-nit-area of IM to my LightSpace curve 700 was the value that brought me there. 500 (or 5x113) wasn't close enough.

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post #2980 of 5857 Old 04-21-2018, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
I would like the IM ST.2084 curve to look like the one I created with LightSpace. For LightSpace I use a projection muliplier of 5. IM also uses some kind of multiplier for Max Display Light. When I remember correctly it wasn't specified how to find a suitable multiplier. Gordon wrote some time ago to start at 800 and decrease it until you are satisfied with brightness.
So to match the nit-for-nit-area of IM to my LightSpace curve 700 was the value that brought me there. 565 (5x113) wasn't close enough.
Since it's called Max Display Light, I thought there is a more direct relationship between actual measured output and what to enter.
The manual says for SDR2020 to use between 100 to 500 for a projector, quiet less then what you used, but not how to get to that number.
"satisfied" it not a precise method

Jim: Any advice on how to get that value?
Since it seems to be rather important to get that right.
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post #2981 of 5857 Old 04-21-2018, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland Janus View Post
Since it's called Max Display Light, I thought there is a more direct relationship between actual measured output and what to enter.
The manual says for SDR2020 to use between 100 to 500 for a projector, quiet less then what you used, but not how to get to that number.
"satisfied" it not a precise method

Jim: Any advice on how to get that value?
Since it seems to be rather important to get that right.
You have to find a multiplier that works for you. I find a max display value that high just kills the lower end too much, so images look too dark. The scene with Leo's son is a perfect example of that for testing. Look at a SDR grade of that scene and then look at HDR. Almost every curve I look at is way too dark. When I look at it with Dolby's tone mapping, it looks closer to the SDR grade. I find that 200-300 looks about right with my setup.

I actually REALLY like the way my ACTUAL display max looks with IM (85) except that it accentuates banding a bit more than I'd like (doesn't add it, just makes existing banding more obvious). But a higher number will give you more overall dynamic range to work with at the expense of a darker image overall, so I understand why some prefer that as well. I'm using 300 right now, and it seems to be a nice middle ground overall for me.

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post #2982 of 5857 Old 04-21-2018, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
You have to find a multiplier that works for you. I find a max display value that high just kills the lower end too much, so images look too dark. The scene with Leo's son is a perfect example of that for testing. Look at a SDR grade of that scene and then look at HDR. Almost every curve I look at is way too dark. When I look at it with Dolby's tone mapping, it looks closer to the SDR grade. I find that 200-300 looks about right with my setup.

I actually REALLY like the way my ACTUAL display max looks with IM (85) except that it accentuates banding a bit more than I'd like (doesn't add it, just makes existing banding more obvious). But a higher number will give you more overall dynamic range to work with at the expense of a darker image overall, so I understand why some prefer that as well. I'm using 300 right now, and it seems to be a nice middle ground overall for me.
so basically, there is not really a objectively measuring method but to watch and subjectively determine the value by eye on a specific scene.
"Leo's son" is referring to which movie?
Other movies/scenes?

That's all for using SDR2020. What about HDR out, where the manual says between 3000-9900 in general but nothing about specific projector values?
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post #2983 of 5857 Old 04-21-2018, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
My peak white is 113 Nits. To get to the results I described here
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vid...l#post56042700
I used the following settings:
Max Display Light 700
<=2000 Ratio -1, Shape 4, Transition 15, Gamma 0, Black 0
>2000 Ratio -1, Shape 3, Transition 15, Gamma 0, Black 0

I'm just trying to decide on another group of settings for <=2000 that get me closer to my reference at the upper end but are a bit darker between 50 and 70%.
Ratio 0, Shape 7, Transition 14, Gamma 0, Black 0
I tried your settings with >2000 titles. Didn't work for me. It looks good with some material, almost has a Darbee effect with some fine detail and local contrast, but it also blows out images. It makes the scene in Mad Max in the sandstorm nearly unwatchable at times, with parts of the image blown out (clipped) with no detail. Even my settings can be aggressive with some of the parts of that sequence, but it is already so stylized to begin with I don't know if it is the best clip to judge those sorts of things. Unless you knew EXACTLY what they wanted each little part to look like, it is a crap shoot.

I will say though. I hope that at some point in the near future we get to the point where most of this is put to bed. I miss being able to watch something and just knowing that the settings are correct (to a standard) so I am not wondering if everything I'm looking at is intentional or something I have set wrong. LOL.

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post #2984 of 5857 Old 04-21-2018, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland Janus View Post
so basically, there is not really a objectively measuring method but to watch and subjectively determine the value by eye on a specific scene.
"Leo's son" is referring to which movie?
Other movies/scenes?

That's all for using SDR2020. What about HDR out, where the manual says between 3000-9900 in general but nothing about specific projector values?
There is no objective method for doing tone mapping yet as there is no real standard. There are best practices, and the time and effort method of looking at a lot of material and finding settings that do the least harm.

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post #2985 of 5857 Old 04-22-2018, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I tried your settings with >2000 titles. Didn't work for me. It looks good with some material, almost has a Darbee effect with some fine detail and local contrast, but it also blows out images. It makes the scene in Mad Max in the sandstorm nearly unwatchable at times, with parts of the image blown out (clipped) with no detail. Even my settings can be aggressive with some of the parts of that sequence, but it is already so stylized to begin with I don't know if it is the best clip to judge those sorts of things. Unless you knew EXACTLY what they wanted each little part to look like, it is a crap shoot.
Apart from the different peak white, there is still another big difference in our setup. My projector is set to the Reference color profile (DCI-P3 not BT.2020). And the Radiance has conversion LUT in its CMS1.
If you take my settings unchanged, I bet it will be at least too dark.
When I took your settings, I had clipping for 1000 nit movies at about 70% and for 4000 nit movies at 87%.
The curve for 1000 nits was fairly OK. But for 4000 nits it was rather strange.
And that's why I wrote earlier, that I suspect with IM settings it is like with all other calibration data. You can't take it for a different setup.

Quote:
I will say though. I hope that at some point in the near future we get to the point where most of this is put to bed. I miss being able to watch something and just knowing that the settings are correct (to a standard) so I am not wondering if everything I'm looking at is intentional or something I have set wrong. LOL.
That's what I hope, too. It's absolutely distracting to doubt every second scene you watch and then switching back an forth between IM, LightSpace and Arve only to confirm that in most cases the difference isn't worth the trouble.
Until I thought something was wrong when I watched Life a few days ago and started comparing with the Mad Max scenes, I lived in blissful ignorance and was able to really watch movies. I want to have that back.
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post #2986 of 5857 Old 04-22-2018, 05:45 AM
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Here is a scene from greatest showman comparing 709 vs sdr2020 on the radiance Pro with a vw600es. The colors and contrast really stand out. It does however make other areas darker in the clip but maybe that is how it was made to look instead of being bleached out.


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post #2987 of 5857 Old 04-22-2018, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by bearcat2017 View Post


Here is a scene from greatest showman comparing 709 vs sdr2020 on the radiance Pro with a vw600es. The colors and contrast really stand out. It does however make other areas darker in the clip but maybe that is how it was made to look instead of being bleached out.


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what settings are you using?
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post #2988 of 5857 Old 04-22-2018, 04:00 PM
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what settings are you using?


Which ones are you wanting to know...I had it calibrated professionally and haven’t touched it.


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post #2989 of 5857 Old 04-22-2018, 06:00 PM
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Which ones are you wanting to know...I had it calibrated professionally and haven’t touched it.


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Does it look right?


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post #2990 of 5857 Old 04-23-2018, 01:03 PM
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Which ones are you wanting to know...I had it calibrated professionally and haven’t touched it.


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the HDR related ones please.
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Settled out on some new settings after trying some new things. I wanted to make it where I have a bit more dynamic range for high nit titles like BvS or Mad Max but have a brighter overall image for lower nit titles where I want to get more for shadow detail and such (Revenant). So I changed my display max to 400 (my peak white is 85 nits for my scope screen, but I am putting in a 1.3 gain screen near the end of the month to try a brighter image). New settings:

>2000 from left to right: -15, 4, 9, 0, 0
<2000 " " " " : 15, 3, 7, 0 , 0

This moves the display max to near 600 for high nit titles and down in the 200's for lower nit titles. So far it seems to be a great balance on both ends, but I have only looked at a few key titles that I typically evaluate with.

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post #2992 of 5857 Old 04-24-2018, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Settled out on some new settings after trying some new things. I wanted to make it where I have a bit more dynamic range for high nit titles like BvS or Mad Max but have a brighter overall image for lower nit titles where I want to get more for shadow detail and such (Revenant). So I changed my display max to 400 (my peak white is 85 nits for my scope screen, but I am putting in a 1.3 gain screen near the end of the month to try a brighter image). New settings:

>2000 from left to right: -15, 4, 9, 0, 0
<2000 " " " " : 15, 3, 7, 0 , 0

This moves the display max to near 600 for high nit titles and down in the 200's for lower nit titles. So far it seems to be a great balance on both ends, but I have only looked at a few key titles that I typically evaluate with.
I'll try those numbers out today (just for fun - I'm sure you don't need my feedback, lol).

Which 1.3 screen are you switching to - Stewart ST130?

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post #2993 of 5857 Old 04-24-2018, 07:56 AM
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All of this conversation is great, but it is all way over my head. I wish there were a Radiance Pro for dummies.

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post #2994 of 5857 Old 04-24-2018, 09:06 AM
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I'll try those numbers out today (just for fun - I'm sure you don't need my feedback, lol).



Which 1.3 screen are you switching to - Stewart ST130?


Yeah, ST130.

For the settings above, I only had a little time with them yesterday so I have more testing to do. They looked good with the stuff I looked at but I didn’t get through all my normal viewing.


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post #2995 of 5857 Old 04-24-2018, 12:11 PM
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Yeah, ST130.

For the settings above, I only had a little time with them yesterday so I have more testing to do. They looked good with the stuff I looked at but I didn’t get through all my normal viewing.


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can you provide some scene examples (movie, position) you're testing with and what to look for?
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post #2996 of 5857 Old 04-25-2018, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
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can you provide some scene examples (movie, position) you're testing with and what to look for?


I’m on travel this week but can post some examples when I get home next week.


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post #2997 of 5857 Old 04-26-2018, 05:50 PM
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Would it be possible to add this desaturation as a user number like the other IM variables, even if just ON/OFF? Then those who want accuracy can defeat it, and those who want to tweak subjectivty can do so?

Just want to say that one of the reasons I choose Lumagen is not only because you do things best but because I know you guys always do things correctly, and that is really important to me.
While I believe the HDR IM math is correct in the Pro, and that information from someone who was one of the people in charge of the Mad Max Fury Road grading says the burnt orange flames (the color produced by the Radiance Pro) are intentional, it is also possible that outputting in SDR mode increases apparent saturation to some degree due to the significantly lower intensity of the image after Tone Mapping. Without a representative photo of the image from the team that did the Mad Max grading, or someone from that team looking at the Pro output, we really cannot be sure if the "burnt orange" output form the Pro is the intended "burnt orange" and exactly how much "yellow" should be in the flames.

In addition we realize that people will vary in what they consider the "best" rendering of these extreme scenes. So we plan to add a user adjustable desaturation control as some have been requesting.

I would like to thank madshi for providing a "desaturation equation" that will be our starting point. The equation he provided is simpler than what I was thinking of doing and we will adapt it to allow users to decrease the saturation of intense colors.

The new "DeSat" control should appear in the HDR Parameter menu in a release soon (but not the next one). By default we plan for the DeSat to be "no desaturation."
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post #2998 of 5857 Old 04-27-2018, 07:19 AM
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All of this conversation is great, but it is all way over my head. I wish there were a Radiance Pro for dummies.
So do I, I am hopelessly lost
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post #2999 of 5857 Old 04-27-2018, 02:33 PM
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So do I, I am hopelessly lost
If you ever acquire one, the users here (including myself) will be happy to assist you.

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post #3000 of 5857 Old 04-27-2018, 03:15 PM
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Reach out to your dealer, they should be more than happy to assist.
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