New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 103 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3061 of 4870 Old 05-10-2018, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
We felt that with output Colorspace = HDR that the TV/projector is already doing it own tone mapping and desaturation and doing another stage of desaturation in the Pro would likely be at cross purpose to what the TV/Projector is doing. So in the current release the desaturation is disabled when the output Colorspace = HDR.

However, if anyone has a good argument that desaturation should be enabled for this case, we can certainly change our minds and allow the desaturation to be enabled when the the output Colorspace = HDR.
IMHO, desaturation (as part of tone mapping) has a very specific scientific purpose and should only be used for that exact purpose. Consequently, in any situation, for any pixel where desaturation helps avoiding/reducing RGB overflows, a certain amount of desaturation should probably be applied. Regardless of which color space or transfer function you're outputting to the display. But for any pixels which don't ever overflow, desaturation should always be completely disabled.

Just my 2 cents, of course.
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post #3062 of 4870 Old 05-10-2018, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Roland Janus View Post
if there is a benefit for e.g. Sony 5000 owners, who actually have to use HDR from what I've read, then yes, it would make sense.

-roland
Exactly
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post #3063 of 4870 Old 05-10-2018, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland Janus View Post
if there is a benefit for e.g. Sony 5000 owners, who actually have to use HDR from what I've read, then yes, it would make sense.

-roland
This is the question I was implying. So if anyone, including VW5000ES owners, have feedback on needing desaturation in the Pro while outputting HDR to the projector/TV, please let us know.

Specific scene examples would be helpful.

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post #3064 of 4870 Old 05-11-2018, 04:33 AM
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Desaturation would be helpful for IM and especially while using HDR2020 instead of SDR2020 in the Pro. The colours are way oversaturated while everything else seems perfect on a Sony 885ES.
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post #3065 of 4870 Old 05-11-2018, 06:49 AM
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Jim what would be the harm if the Desat can be turned on/off completely? Then we could let you know if it looks good with HDR out. For Sony projectors HDR out is the best option.
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post #3066 of 4870 Old 05-11-2018, 02:37 PM
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The 050518 release just posted now enables the new HDR desaturation feature for either Output CMS Colorspace=SDR or Colorspace=HDR.

Default is still 4 out of the range of 0 to 15. You can change the HDSat parameter to 0 to eliminate the desaturation effect completely.
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post #3067 of 4870 Old 05-11-2018, 02:49 PM
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New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
The 050518 release just posted now enables the new HDR desaturation feature for either Output CMS Colorspace=SDR or Colorspace=HDR.



Default is still 4 out of the range of 0 to 15. You can change the HDSat parameter to 0 to eliminate the desaturation effect completely.


Hi Jim, this new feature is brilliant and works well for movies, which are very light. However some movies look oversaturated I set the HDsat to 0 but still it’s very oversaturated:
https://imgur.com/a/tTMmHiE
HDR content Spy movie, using IM in SDR709, ColorSpace2 in Sony
Thank you


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post #3068 of 4870 Old 05-11-2018, 03:05 PM
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@jrp
Could you please provide a newer revision for Tech Tip 11?
I guess ZY518 would be different now. And ZQI52 is missing.

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post #3069 of 4870 Old 05-11-2018, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulOfUniverse View Post
However some movies look oversaturated I set the HDsat to 0 but still it’s very oversaturated
I think there's a misunderstanding here:

The new desaturation algorithm is only for very specific situations where overbright pixels are tone mapped down. All pixels which are not overbright are not affected at all by the new desat algo. That is exactly as intended.

What you're describing sounds like a movie which was mastered with an overall much too high saturation level. Of course it would be possible to offer a setting/algorithm to "fix" such a problem. But that's a *completely* different topic. The new desaturation algo introduced in the latest Lumagen firmware was never meant to fix movies which were mastered with an overall much too high saturation level.
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post #3070 of 4870 Old 05-11-2018, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulOfUniverse View Post
Hi Jim, this new feature is brilliant and works well for movies, which are very light. However some movies look oversaturated I set the HDsat to 0 but still it’s very oversaturated:
https://imgur.com/a/tTMmHiE
HDR content Spy movie, using IM in SDR709, ColorSpace2 in Sony
Thank you
To add to what madshi said, I want to make sure you understand that the HDSat = 0 is *no* desaturation, and HDSat = 15 is maximum desaturation.

As madshi says, only pixels that are very bright and highly saturated are affected by the new desaturation feature. Colorful pixels of moderate intensity are not affected at all.
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post #3071 of 4870 Old 05-11-2018, 09:49 PM
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it s very good but some part of picture are saturate some part of pixel are oversaturated :

leon
lalalande the skin is oversaturate
murder on orient express the skin is great but sometimes it s red skin on hight light

config projector
hdr 2020 to sur 2020
hd sat 15
and nits 200 nits(on radiance) for 35 real nits on screen
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post #3072 of 4870 Old 05-11-2018, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
To add to what madshi said, I want to make sure you understand that the HDSat = 0 is *no* desaturation, and HDSat = 15 is maximum desaturation.



As madshi says, only pixels that are very bright and highly saturated are affected by the new desaturation feature. Colorful pixels of moderate intensity are not affected at all.


Hi Jim thank you, but I have a feeling all movies are now slightly more saturated, which most of the titles are showing great, but probably this one I’ve mentioned been badly mastered at studios and doesn’t look natural. Will check more other titles, which I know very good. But checked cartoon Sing, and it shows much better as it was very undersaturated.


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post #3073 of 4870 Old 05-12-2018, 06:29 AM
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Hi I pretty much stopped reading the forum after applying Beta 121217 and using the IM feature to enjoy some 4K UHD watching.

Now that I have watched a majority of my 4K UHD's, I want to upgrade my Pro to the latest release and get up to speed on the latest release.
I have a Sony VW520/665. Settings on the projector I set HDR= OFF, and Colourspace= BT2020 When using the IM feature on the Lumagen.

What additional settings/improvements have been made, and what other/or existing settings should I be using to improve the viewing of 4K HDR material?
thanks

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post #3074 of 4870 Old 05-12-2018, 07:21 PM
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I played with the new desaturation for just a little while last night. I mainly used Batman VS Superman and Mad Max as these tend to be the main titles people look at for this issue. With the default 4 it made a very small difference with the test clips we typically see from MM, but I thought going all the way to 12 or higher was too much and started taking too much color away from the scenes. The same thing happed with BVS. I found 8 to be a better compromise. It preserved the color tones better but still gave appreciable results with the clips.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I played with the new desaturation for just a little while last night. I mainly used Batman VS Superman and Mad Max as these tend to be the main titles people look at for this issue. With the default 4 it made a very small difference with the test clips we typically see from MM, but I thought going all the way to 12 or higher was too much and started taking too much color away from the scenes. The same thing happed with BVS. I found 8 to be a better compromise. It preserved the color tones better but still gave appreciable results with the clips.
What's the max possible value in the Lumagen settings? FWIW, "a bit more than 50%" is the desaturation strength I liked most in madVR, as an overall compromise. But it's really hard deciding on one specific value. E.g. for the green spear scene in BvS, I prefer a rather high desaturation strength, but for Mad Max explosions, such a setting would make explosions look awfully pale, so finding a good compromise is not easy.
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The maximum possible setting for desaturation is 15.
After testing HDSat on my TV a few days ago I watched the same scenes with my projector. And this is the closest IM has ever been to Arve or LightSpace in those scenes.
At first I also thought, 8 would be the suitable setting for me. But I took a closer look again at the Mad Max scene witth the lightning bolt. The flames in the foreground lose their cyan tint completely with 8 while the lightning bolt loses it with 12. So I decided to stay with 12. But going above 12 is too much for me.
But as with all other settings too, this might be something for personal taste.

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I have one problem with the latest fw,when turn on hdr mapping when watching UHD bd, the screen appear noisy and blurred. Turn hdr mapping to off, everything return normally
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post #3078 of 4870 Old 05-13-2018, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
What's the max possible value in the Lumagen settings? FWIW, "a bit more than 50%" is the desaturation strength I liked most in madVR, as an overall compromise. But it's really hard deciding on one specific value. E.g. for the green spear scene in BvS, I prefer a rather high desaturation strength, but for Mad Max explosions, such a setting would make explosions look awfully pale, so finding a good compromise is not easy.
Interesting. I found a lower value works better for the spear scene than the MM scenes with the Lumagen. I'm going to settle on 8 for now. Again, other than these two movies, I rarely have any issue with saturation, so I am not going to make this into a bigger deal than it needs to be. I watch movies all the time and this problem probably represents less than 1% of viewing time for issues (the slight gamma manipulation from the dynamic iris process in my JVC causes more issues than this), so I'm not gonna sweat it. If I was watching these two movies all the time, maybe I'd care more. I like that it is in the quick adjustment menu for the Lumagen though, easy to just tweak it quickly if you knew you were watching a title like this.

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post #3079 of 4870 Old 05-13-2018, 09:12 AM
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Paradoxically, the more controls we have the further away we get from the simple joy of watching...

My top down view is most of these controls have no set and forget mode, so the more options, the more fiddling and the more invasive the whole process becomes

This is the Windows approach to intensity mapping. We need the Apple approach. Perhaps that is frame by frame IM that may be coming. But adding more spices doesn’t always make the dish taste better

And I’m not criticizing Lumagen at all here - they are trying to deal with the mess of all the variables to make this work. But perhapas a different paradigm is needed here.
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is it possible to have dolby vision news for radiance compatibility
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post #3081 of 4870 Old 05-13-2018, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Paradoxically, the more controls we have the further away we get from the simple joy of watching...



My top down view is most of these controls have no set and forget mode, so the more options, the more fiddling and the more invasive the whole process becomes



This is the Windows approach to intensity mapping. We need the Apple approach. Perhaps that is frame by frame IM that may be coming. But adding more spices doesn’t always make the dish taste better



And I’m not criticizing Lumagen at all here - they are trying to deal with the mess of all the variables to make this work. But perhapas a different paradigm is needed here.


I fell like I’ve gotten to set and forget, but my settings won’t just magically work with everyone else’s. But I don’t feel like I have to adjust them on a movie to movie basis at all.


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I don’t see it Kris... content is too variable. I mean, yes, you can find compromised settings and leave it, but not optimized...

I think you need frame-based analysis to make this truly the transformative (if this is possible; I’m no programmer)

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Define optimized? I rarely find content that looks compromised and I watch a UHD movie almost every day.

You're working with a completely different scenario than me though, you're essentially doing two completely different tone maps overlaying each other. So it is probably a lot harder to find a good fit. I'm doing HDR to SDR and I find it extremely rare that something looks "off" in my setup. Granted, it took a lot of time to get there, but I feel like I've subjectively emulated my OLED about as well as I can.

I also don't feel like content is too variable. It shouldn't be either. Unless you're just trying to achieve some hyper HDR feel for every movie, I just don't see a lot of variation that isn't handled well by the crossover point the Lumagen allows. From low nit titles to the Mad Max's, I feel like my image is very balanced across the spectrum. The last title I saw any kind of anomalies in was The Greatest Showman, but it turns out that was from the dynamic iris functionality of my projector and not IM.

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post #3084 of 4870 Old 05-13-2018, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Interesting. I found a lower value works better for the spear scene than the MM scenes with the Lumagen. I'm going to settle on 8 for now. Again, other than these two movies, I rarely have any issue with saturation, so I am not going to make this into a bigger deal than it needs to be. I watch movies all the time and this problem probably represents less than 1% of viewing time for issues (the slight gamma manipulation from the dynamic iris process in my JVC causes more issues than this), so I'm not gonna sweat it. If I was watching these two movies all the time, maybe I'd care more. I like that it is in the quick adjustment menu for the Lumagen though, easy to just tweak it quickly if you knew you were watching a title like this.
What are your settings for IM >2500 and <2500? I know you have posted but want to validate. Thanks. SJ
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What are your settings for IM >2500 and <2500? I know you have posted but want to validate. Thanks. SJ
I don't remember off the top of my head, if I power up tonight I'll post them. I have my crossover at 2000 though, not 2500.

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post #3086 of 4870 Old 05-13-2018, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
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I don't remember off the top of my head, if I power up tonight I'll post them. I have my crossover at 2000 though, not 2500.
Great. Last time you suggested:


>2000 from left to right: -15, 4, 9, 0, 0
<2000 " " " " : 15, 3, 7, 0 , 0


Of course left to right is different now. Lol. Thanks. SJ
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post #3087 of 4870 Old 05-14-2018, 01:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Again, other than these two movies, I rarely have any issue with saturation, so I am not going to make this into a bigger deal than it needs to be. I watch movies all the time and this problem probably represents less than 1% of viewing time for issues (the slight gamma manipulation from the dynamic iris process in my JVC causes more issues than this), so I'm not gonna sweat it. If I was watching these two movies all the time, maybe I'd care more.
It's currently only dramatically obvious in a few rare movies/scenes. However, I bet there are a million scenes where although not obvious, this feature will make a clearly visible difference if you compare side-by-side. Furthermore, in the long run I'd expect the trend to go towards 4000nits masters, maybe at some point even 10000nits masters. Which should increase the amount of movies/scenes where saturation could become an obvious problem. So while desaturation might be not the most important thing in the world, I still think it's an important part of tone mapping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Paradoxically, the more controls we have the further away we get from the simple joy of watching...

My top down view is most of these controls have no set and forget mode, so the more options, the more fiddling and the more invasive the whole process becomes

This is the Windows approach to intensity mapping. We need the Apple approach. Perhaps that is frame by frame IM that may be coming. But adding more spices doesn’t always make the dish taste better

And I’m not criticizing Lumagen at all here - they are trying to deal with the mess of all the variables to make this work. But perhapas a different paradigm is needed here.
HDR -> SDR tone mapping is not standardized anywhere. Everybody does it differently. So at this point we're all still experimenting with different curves and different formulas. If you want a pefectly tuned solution which works well for all movies out of the box with no options at all (or with all options having a clear and well optimized default value), then come back in a few months/years. For now all the solutions need fine tuning, and user feedback is helpful there, so it makes sense to start with a lot of options, and to thin them out over time based on user feedback.

I don't see why frame by frame analysis would reduce the number of options. Actually, there will probably at least be one more option: Namely to enable or disable frame by frame analysis.
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post #3088 of 4870 Old 05-14-2018, 05:06 AM
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I can only speek from a simple user and movie geek side, but I really like that lumagen /madvr or arve try clear all the " mistakes " the industry give us by brave new 4K/UHD world.
I see the HDSAT Feature as a mark, what is possible is the near future, if everbody inputs and work together
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post #3089 of 4870 Old 05-14-2018, 06:06 AM
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Unfortunately the desaturation feature still does not work for IM with HDR2020 output. There is no viewable change.

Last edited by Eventidal; 05-14-2018 at 08:45 AM.
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post #3090 of 4870 Old 05-14-2018, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
It's currently only dramatically obvious in a few rare movies/scenes. However, I bet there are a million scenes where although not obvious, this feature will make a clearly visible difference if you compare side-by-side. Furthermore, in the long run I'd expect the trend to go towards 4000nits masters, maybe at some point even 10000nits masters. Which should increase the amount of movies/scenes where saturation could become an obvious problem. So while desaturation might be not the most important thing in the world, I still think it's an important part of tone mapping.


HDR -> SDR tone mapping is not standardized anywhere. Everybody does it differently. So at this point we're all still experimenting with different curves and different formulas. If you want a pefectly tuned solution which works well for all movies out of the box with no options at all (or with all options having a clear and well optimized default value), then come back in a few months/years. For now all the solutions need fine tuning, and user feedback is helpful there, so it makes sense to start with a lot of options, and to thin them out over time based on user feedback.

I don't see why frame by frame analysis would reduce the number of options. Actually, there will probably at least be one more option: Namely to enable or disable frame by frame analysis.
In theory, frame-by-frame analysis should provide better automated results than disc-based. Wouldn’t adjusting the tone mapping based on real-time MAXCLL analysis provide more optimized results? Likely with less manual intervention required? I also recall Jim mentioning he’s come across titles with incorrect meta data, so performing frame-based analysis should be more accurate than disc-based meta data.

(I would think....)

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