New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 106 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3151 of 5857 Old 05-22-2018, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
The problem here is there are no “SDR limits” when it comes to luminance. This is why I’m confused about why the Sony is having this issue. I could understand it not supporting 2020 with a SDR signal, we’ve seen that with other displays, but limiting luminance doesn’t make any sense at all. Which makes me question it as a setup issue. But without having access to one I can’t say for sure. I wish there was someone local with that combo that I could test out. Then I could provide feedback for you or other members with this setup.


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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Same here, seems positively nuts, since you're effectively crippling the maximum screen size for no obvious reason.
Unless the laser can't run that hot for long or some other weirdness.

Its nothing to do with the laser running in high output...thats not an issue.

There seems to be some processing in the 5000 that remaps HDR levels when the flag is SDR. It processes 2020 automatically. I'm not saying this is correct or purposeful - who knows at the moment - just the behavior. When it sees the HDR flag, all seems quite well.

Kris - if you're ever in the NYC area, you're welcome to come visit. There are really no settings that can circumvent this behavior, unless there is something buried in the service menu...
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post #3152 of 5857 Old 05-22-2018, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
if you're happy with the results, then its probably a moot point. It was purely a suggestion to prevent you having to overlay two different sets of tone mapping, and also give you a route to be able to accurately calibrate greyscale and gamma, which presumably you can't do with the current method.
I'm not being dismissive, just not following the suggestion - I'm open to explore options!
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post #3153 of 5857 Old 05-22-2018, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Its nothing to do with the laser running in high output...thats not an issue.

There seems to be some processing in the 5000 that remaps HDR levels when the flag is SDR. It processes 2020 automatically. I'm not saying this is correct or purposeful - who knows at the moment - just the behavior. When it sees the HDR flag, all seems quite well.

Kris - if you're ever in the NYC area, you're welcome to come visit. There are really no settings that can circumvent this behavior, unless there is something buried in the service menu...
There's no such things as HDR levels when the flag is SDR - they're just SDR levels at that point, so it seems odd.
Am I right in thinking you're not actually making a 3DLUT based on the profile of the projector in SDR mode?
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post #3154 of 5857 Old 05-22-2018, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
There's no such things as HDR levels when the flag is SDR - they're just SDR levels at that point, so it seems odd.
Am I right in thinking you're not actually making a 3DLUT based on the profile of the projector in SDR mode?
I'm using the 3D calibrated LUT done by Ken Whitcomb, which was done as SDR out to the 5000. This is the same approach that others are using here with Ken's calibration...

Unless there is something "wrong" with the calibration workflow (he used Calman). That would be the only other common denominator between myself and others here with 5000/Radiance/calibration workflow

EDIT - Is it possible the SDR patterns were used inadvertently? I presume that could lead to these results...

I have Chromapure and a Display 3 Pro.. I guess I could dust this stuff off and see if there's a step by step guide on how to do this myself to compare...

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post #3155 of 5857 Old 05-22-2018, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
I'm using the 3D calibrated LUT done by Ken Whitcomb, which was done as SDR out to the 5000. This is the same approach that others are using here with Ken's calibration...

Unless there is something "wrong" with the calibration workflow (he used Calman). That would be the only other common denominator between myself and others here with 5000/Radiance/calibration workflow
Don't know Calman. With Lightspace I known you have to create two LUTs and upload to different CMS memories in the Radiance. One for REC709, and one for REC2020. If you have the Radiance sending REC709 and REC2020 you will have to have made two measurement profiles, one at each output type from the Radiance. If you don't do that you would end up constrained by the LUT you create for REC709 I think (or perhaps not have an active own profiled LUT at all).

Anyway, sounds like you're in the hands of a pro so not much point trying to second guess how it is set up.
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post #3156 of 5857 Old 05-22-2018, 09:19 AM
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@jrp

Jim if I send you my Radiance config, can you analyze it to see if the calibration was done correctly? (are the HDR2020 luminance values limited to SDR for example, and perhaps what patterns were used for a given cms calibration)?

Thanks
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post #3157 of 5857 Old 05-22-2018, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
@jrp

Jim if I send you my Radiance config, can you analyze it to see if the calibration was done correctly? (are the HDR2020 luminance values limited to SDR for example, and perhaps what patterns were used for a given cms calibration)?

Thanks
Sorry, but not able to look at the calibration and see from the config file.

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post #3158 of 5857 Old 05-22-2018, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Hi Wookie

Not following here... if the Sony kicks to HDR mode, there is no need to use an external tool for a custom gamma - it looks great in the hybrid approach. The Sony HDR mode does not have the issues the JVC has with its HDR Gamma mode being way off...

The issue is to see if the Sony can process a SDR2020 signal without remapping the embedded HDR luminance levels to SDR limits.

So perhaps I'm missing your point here...

Thanks
There are no "embedded HDR luminance levels" when you send an SDR2020 signal to whatever is next in the signal chain. The correct setting for this is HDR off and Color Space set to BT.2020. I've been to Sony headquarters in San Diego for HDR training with Sony engineers. While Sony prefers to use their own tone mapping, they have also enabled one to use upstream tone mapping and send SDR2020 to the 5000ES. It does not remap anything when using the correct settings.

Sony says in their manual, "If the setting is not correct for the input content, the bright and dark areas of the video may appear too bright or too dark." This happens if you leave HDR to Auto, but send it SDR2020 content. Perhaps this is what you see as the problem. I think the HDR mode is triggered by the detected color space. One is either going to let the Sony do the tone mapping and send it HDR and BT.2020 or let the Lumagen (or madVR) do the tone mapping and set HDR to Off. There really isn't a use case when one wants to have the Lumagen tone map some of the time and have the Sony tone map some of the time and have the HDR Auto setting detect the HDR metadata. I just sent the 5000ES back to Sony today so I can't check into this further.

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post #3159 of 5857 Old 05-22-2018, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
There are no "embedded HDR luminance levels" when you send an SDR2020 signal to whatever is next in the signal chain. The correct setting for this is HDR off and Color Space set to BT.2020. I've been to Sony headquarters in San Diego for HDR training with Sony engineers. While Sony prefers to use their own tone mapping, they have also enabled one to use upstream tone mapping and send SDR2020 to the 5000ES. It does not remap anything when using the correct settings.

Sony says in their manual, "If the setting is not correct for the input content, the bright and dark areas of the video may appear too bright or too dark." This happens if you leave HDR to Auto, but send it SDR2020 content. Perhaps this is what you see as the problem. I think the HDR mode is triggered by the detected color space. One is either going to let the Sony do the tone mapping and send it HDR and BT.2020 or let the Lumagen (or madVR) do the tone mapping and set HDR to Off. There really isn't a use case when one wants to have the Lumagen tone map some of the time and have the Sony tone map some of the time and have the HDR Auto setting detect the HDR metadata. I just sent the 5000ES back to Sony today so I can't check into this further.
I've tried HDR off with a tone-mapped SDR2020 signal from the Radiance and it does not change the presentation of the image: Auto and Off for HDR are exactly the same. So this is not a "correct" setting in my experience (and the experience of others here who have compared both approaches)

As much as I theoretically agree with you that that hybrid approach doesn't make "sense," it is in actuality the better approach for Radiance and 5000 users as far as I can ascertain in my content testing to date...and after conversations with Sony, and other comments posted here about limitations with the current processing in the 5000. It seems to assume an SDR flag means "that's the color volume" it should expect in the incoming signal; yet the tone-mapped signal of course contains a larger color volume (and peak whites) - greater than expected for SDR (29 fl/100 nits?). According to Kris, other devices, such as the JVC 4500, could care less how the flag is set in the incoming signal, and processes/displays whatever is presented within the limitations of the device. Apparently the Sony cares for some reason.

Everything I understand is that color output is impacted by both 2020 (P3) as well as the higher luminance values of HDR. So if the 5000 is not processing this correctly, brightness and color range would be reduced, which is pretty much what I see.

I mean, take the Radiance out of the chain - an HDR signal from your UHD player is brighter and more vibrant on the 5000 then sending tone-mapped SDR-2020 from the Radiance to it. It just is.

I'm ALWAYS open to re-looking at a wrong setting, or just learning more - but again, a few others are also trying this hybrid approach and are much more satisfied with the results. Again, this appears not to be a Radiance issue, but how Sony is processing higher luminance values via a SDR2020 signal.


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post #3160 of 5857 Old 05-23-2018, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
The problem here is there are no “SDR limits” when it comes to luminance. This is why I’m confused about why the Sony is having this issue. I could understand it not supporting 2020 with a SDR signal, we’ve seen that with other displays, but limiting luminance doesn’t make any sense at all. Which makes me question it as a setup issue. But without having access to one I can’t say for sure. I wish there was someone local with that combo that I could test out. Then I could provide feedback for you or other members with this setup.


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Hi Kris:

I see you are getting a 885 for review next week, perhaps you could look at this for the Sony users here.
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post #3161 of 5857 Old 05-23-2018, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by LJG View Post
Hi Kris:

I see you are getting a 885 for review next week, perhaps you could look at this for the Sony users here.
Not getting it for review, it is the unit that I already reviewed some time ago. I am just going to play around with it again starting next week. Want to see how it reacts to the Lumagen stuff, though I don't know if it has the same issues that have been brought up for the 5000ES. But I'll chime in on what I find.

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post #3162 of 5857 Old 05-23-2018, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Not getting it for review, it is the unit that I already reviewed some time ago. I am just going to play around with it again starting next week. Want to see how it reacts to the Lumagen stuff, though I don't know if it has the same issues that have been brought up for the 5000ES. But I'll chime in on what I find.
Thanks Kris!!
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post #3163 of 5857 Old 05-24-2018, 03:42 PM
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Just got included in the beta of the Lumagen Pro Kaleidescape costar. Not sure how much I can say,lol, but it is SLICK.....
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Just got included in the beta of the Lumagen Pro Kaleidescape costar. Not sure how much I can say,lol, but it is SLICK.....
So is that basically using the Lumagen Pro to do the switching instead of the diddy little switch they usually use, or something else? What's the benefit of doing it with the Pro?
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post #3165 of 5857 Old 05-25-2018, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
So is that basically using the Lumagen Pro to do the switching instead of the diddy little switch they usually use, or something else? What's the benefit of doing it with the Pro?
Faster, less hardware, separate configs, etc......
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post #3166 of 5857 Old 05-25-2018, 01:21 PM
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I am having issues running my Directv mini 4K through Lumagen, all of the 4K signals (104,105,106) are muted/off no audio or video. The 720P and 1080i are outputting just fine. Running same cables direct to Sony 5000ES works perfectly. Anyone else running DTV mini4K through Lumagen into Sony 5000ES?
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post #3167 of 5857 Old 05-25-2018, 02:58 PM
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For those who do not know what the Kaleidescape Costar feature is, it allows a Kaleidescape Strato to be the master device and control another Kaleidescape player using a single OSD. If you own a Kaleidescape player, or wish to, contact Kaleidescape for more information.

The Kaleidescape "Costar for Lumagen" uses the Strato's HDMI Info Frame output to tell the Radiance Pro whether to select the Strato output or the "Costar" output. This is better than the external auto-switch (or internal Pro auto-switch) since the output of both the Strato and the Costar can be left on. This eliminates the "acquire a new signal" delay needed for the auto-switch Costar variant. With the auto-switch approach the time it takes the HDMI input chip to acquire a new signal as either the Strato or the Costar output is enabled has to be added to the switching time.

As mentioned, using the Costar for Lumagen, you can also have a different input setup for the Strato, and the Costar player.

Kaleidescape charges for the "Costar for Lumagen." For new sales of the Radiance Pro in the USA or Canada, Lumagen is offering a $500 retail credit toward the purchase of a new Radiance Pro once the customer shows they have purchased the Costar for Lumagen feature from Kaleidescape. Ask your Lumagen dealer to contact Lumagen for details of this limited time offer.
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post #3168 of 5857 Old 05-25-2018, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG View Post
I am having issues running my Directv mini 4K through Lumagen, all of the 4K signals (104,105,106) are muted/off no audio or video. The 720P and 1080i are outputting just fine. Running same cables direct to Sony 5000ES works perfectly. Anyone else running DTV mini4K through Lumagen into Sony 5000ES?
I have a DirecTV Genie 54 w a 4k mini-Genie running 4k into Radiance Pro then to 5000ES and no issues whatsoever. For many months now! Check the 4k mini-Genie Settings menu to ensure you can output native rate including 4k.

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post #3169 of 5857 Old 05-26-2018, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
I have a DirecTV Genie 54 w a 4k mini-Genie running 4k into Radiance Pro then to 5000ES and no issues whatsoever. For many months now! Check the 4k mini-Genie Settings menu to ensure you can output native rate including 4k.
Thanks for the try Steve, but Native rate settings are correct in DTV mini, not sure what is going on.
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I have Dish 4K, but is there some type of HLG setting you need to set on the Pro or DTV box? Just guessing.... SJ
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post #3171 of 5857 Old 05-26-2018, 12:37 PM
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I have Dish 4K, but is there some type of HLG setting you need to set on the Pro or DTV box? Just guessing.... SJ
The box Mini4K is set correctly I am not sure why both the audio and video is muted for 4K broadcast's through Lumagen, I just swapped mini 4k boxes and both work direct to Sony but neither works through Lumagen. It's very odd and must be a setting in the Lumagen some where buried.
where.
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post #3172 of 5857 Old 05-28-2018, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by LJG View Post
The box Mini4K is set correctly I am not sure why both the audio and video is muted for 4K broadcast's through Lumagen, I just swapped mini 4k boxes and both work direct to Sony but neither works through Lumagen. It's very odd and must be a setting in the Lumagen some where buried.
where.
If its the Lumagen - give JimP at Lumagen a call tomorrow and have him walk you through steps to check your audio out settings! If its the Lumagen that will solve the issue.

Another thing you can do first is simply replace the HDMI cable from Mini4k to Lumagen to see if that might solve the issue.

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post #3173 of 5857 Old 05-28-2018, 12:11 PM
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Issue resolved thanks all for help
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Issue resolved thanks all for help
What was it? HDMI cable?

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post #3175 of 5857 Old 05-28-2018, 02:21 PM
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EDID from switcher which did not cause a problem direct to projector, so I did't re-look at switcher until I tried everything else. Upgrade firmware to switcher and it plays nicely with Lumagen now.
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post #3176 of 5857 Old 05-29-2018, 09:20 AM
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EDID from switcher which did not cause a problem direct to projector, so I did't re-look at switcher until I tried everything else. Upgrade firmware to switcher and it plays nicely with Lumagen now.
Are you using the switcher box after your DirecTV mini4k? (I assume so since you have a 5000ES projector AND multiple flat tvs for multiple sports watching at once!)

What switcher box are you using?

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post #3177 of 5857 Old 05-31-2018, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by tibia View Post
...if you setup both Chromapure and the Pro to do SDR2020 calibration but using a Rec 709 source and 2.4 power law gamma Auto-Calibration works fantastically well.
Why would you want to use Rec.709 instead of Rec.2020?

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post #3178 of 5857 Old 06-02-2018, 05:52 PM
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Why would you want to use Rec.709 instead of Rec.2020?
Anyone email Lumagen lately? Two days I’m getting bounce backs from Jim’s address...
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post #3179 of 5857 Old 06-02-2018, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
It seems to assume an SDR flag means "that's the color volume" it should expect in the incoming signal; yet the tone-mapped signal of course contains a larger color volume (and peak whites) - greater than expected for SDR (29 fl/100 nits?).
I did some quick measurements today with a Jeti 1511 probe. Playing the windowed 100% white 1000- and 4000-nits patterns from R. Masciola's Advanced Calibration Disc through my Panny 900 player, I got about 208 nits using the HDR->SDR IM setting calibrated by Ken Whitcomb. When I switched to HDR into Sony--still through the Lumagen albeit uncalibrated--I got about 220 nits. Ken told me there is a ~8% loss due to the calibration so the numbers look fine at first glance. Is there anything else you want me to test?

--wilson

P.S. I was zoomed into 16:9 on my 140" 2.40 ST100 screen with laser at 50 and that's why it's kind of bright.
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post #3180 of 5857 Old 06-02-2018, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Anyone email Lumagen lately? Two days I’m getting bounce backs from Jim’s address...


Yep. I’ve noted the same.


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