New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 136 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 3082Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #4051 of 4854 Old 03-01-2019, 12:27 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 363
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 174 Post(s)
Liked: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Fraser View Post
i use Belden FE Bonded pair cable 8ft. Available from bluejeanscables


Thx Gordon


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
A7mad78 is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4052 of 4854 Old 03-01-2019, 12:32 PM
aka jfinnie
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 2,866
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2326 Post(s)
Liked: 1465
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post
As I get closer to actually running my first auto calibration, I am seeing some posts with reference of issues with ChromaPure. What are those issues?

Also, I am wondering if there is any appreciable difference in communication success or failures between these two connection options, which need to be around 30-40 feet:

A USB-A (Laptop end) to USB-B cable (Radiance end)

-or-

A USB-Serial / RS-232 Adapter (Laptop end) to Serial / RS-232 cable (Radiance end)

Thanks for any input.

Mark
USB at that length would have to be some kind of active solution; better going for a USB-RS232 adapter and making the long run RS232.
giomania likes this.
bobof is online now  
post #4053 of 4854 Old 03-01-2019, 01:57 PM
jrp
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jrp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posts: 1,462
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 373 Post(s)
Liked: 938
Dynamic Tone Mapping

Wow, we sure did stir up the hornet's nest.

Here's an update.

- I checked with Patrick, and it turns out that that HLG does not yet support Dynamic Tone Mapping. We will implement HLG Dynamic Tone Mapping, but it might be a bit before we can get it in the code.

- Currently for Dynamic Tone Mapping the "Low-Set" Shape and Transition parameters do not affect the Dynamic Tone Mapping. Thrang was first to point this out (that I saw). Turns out to be that the "Low" curve is lower than his setting for Display Max Light of 400. Without getting into too many details, if you are doing HDR and the "display" says it has more range then the source needs (this case) then no Tone Mapping is needed since the "display" can render the entire range of the source. As an example if you have a 1000 nit TV and a 1000 nit source you can render the source without tone mapping, but for a 4000 nit source you would need tone mapping.

- So while this is *not* a bug, it is a choice we are reconsidering. Based on feedback the current choice works very well, other than the Low-Set Shape and Transition do not change the transfer function.

- I actually designed the low to high Tone Mapping Blend equations to allow the current Frame MaxCLL to be well below the low-curve-nit-point, and to also be able to be well above the high-curve-nit-point. This is because originally I planned on the low curve being higher than we ended up with, and just plain did not consider the effect using a much lower nit curve would have on using Shape and Transition.

- We are now planning to raise the "nit point" of the low-nit curve up so that for devices in the <700 nits range Shape and Transition will have some effect on the transfer function. This should give extra control for Dynamic Tone Mapping and *may* help tune the scenes referenced in the various posts.

=====

Some general comments on Dynamic Tone Mapping:

It is not possible to get perfect results for every scene using Dynamic Tone Mapping. Also, Dynamic Tone Mapping results will be different than Static to some degree. For almost all scenes the Dynamic Tone Mapping results should be better than Static Tone Mapping.

Tone Mapping is all about trade-offs. If you are trying to reproduce Mad Max Fury Road with a MaxCLL of 9919-ish nits on a 100 nit projector, something's gotta give. In general we believe allocating more of the range to low and mid-tones and allowing highlights to show some clamping looks the best. You may not agree (and you have controls to change this if you wish).

I think saying that having more controls means the job is not done ignores that different producers do things differently, and every person has their personal preferences. The only way to deal with this is enough controls to tune the image to personal taste and compensate for differences in the content. I don't get that people say there are too many controls when they do not have to use them since the default settings are extremely good.

We spent a great deal of effort on tuning Static HDR Mapping. I want to thank everyone who gave us feedback on optimal settings for Static Tone Mapping. A special thanks to Kris Deering who's feedback and parameter settings were instrumental in getting the Static Tone Mapping tuned and selecting the current parameter defaults we use for Static Tone Mapping.

If a scene "looks better" with static as compared to Dynamic Tone Mapping, then it likely means that the Static MaxCLL number was "wrong," but happily so in that it improved the scene slightly. Of course as people point scenes where they think Static Tone Mapping looks better we can investigate and see if there is a way to improve Dynamic Tone Mapping.
Spizz, giomania, SJHT and 8 others like this.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
jrp is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4054 of 4854 Old 03-01-2019, 02:04 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
thrang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 7,123
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2506 Post(s)
Liked: 2027
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
Wow, we sure did stir up the hornet's nest.

Here's an update.

- I checked with Patrick, and it turns out that that HLG does not yet support Dynamic Tone Mapping. We will implement HLG Dynamic Tone Mapping, but it might be a bit before we can get it in the code.

- Currently for Dynamic Tone Mapping the "Low-Set" Shape and Transition parameters do not affect the Dynamic Tone Mapping. Thrang was first to point this out (that I saw). Turns out to be that the "Low" curve is lower than his setting for Display Max Light of 400. Without getting into too many details, if you are doing HDR and the "display" says it has more range then the source needs (this case) then no Tone Mapping is needed since the "display" can render the entire range of the source. As an example if you have a 1000 nit TV and a 1000 nit source you can render the source without tone mapping, but for a 4000 nit source you would need tone mapping.

- So while this is *not* a bug, it is a choice we are reconsidering. Based on feedback the current choice works very well, other than the Low-Set Shape and Transition do not change the transfer function.

- I actually designed the low to high Tone Mapping Blend equations to allow the current Frame MaxCLL to be well below the low-curve-nit-point, and to also be able to be well above the high-curve-nit-point. This is because originally I planned on the low curve being higher than we ended up with, and just plain did not consider the effect using a much lower nit curve would have on using Shape and Transition.

- We are now planning to raise the "nit point" of the low-nit curve up so that for devices in the <700 nits range Shape and Transition will have some effect on the transfer function. This should give extra control for Dynamic Tone Mapping and *may* help tune the scenes referenced in the various posts.

=====

Some general comments on Dynamic Tone Mapping:

It is not possible to get perfect results for every scene using Dynamic Tone Mapping. Also, Dynamic Tone Mapping results will be different than Static to some degree. For almost all scenes the Dynamic Tone Mapping results should be better than Static Tone Mapping.

Tone Mapping is all about trade-offs. If you are trying to reproduce Mad Max Fury Road with a MaxCLL of 9919-ish nits on a 100 nit projector, something's gotta give. In general we believe allocating more of the range to low and mid-tones and allowing highlights to show some clamping looks the best. You may not agree (and you have controls to change this if you wish).

I think saying that having more controls means the job is not done ignores that different producers do things differently, and every person has their personal preferences. The only way to deal with this is enough controls to tune the image to personal taste and compensate for differences in the content. I don't get that people say there are too many controls when they do not have to use them since the default settings are extremely good.

We spent a great deal of effort on tuning Static HDR Mapping. I want to thank everyone who gave us feedback on optimal settings for Static Tone Mapping. A special thanks to Kris Deering who's feedback and parameter settings were instrumental in getting the Static Tone Mapping tuned and selecting the current parameter defaults we use for Static Tone Mapping.

If a scene "looks better" with static as compared to Dynamic Tone Mapping, then it likely means that the Static MaxCLL number was "wrong," but happily so in that it improved the scene slightly. Of course as people point scenes where they think Static Tone Mapping looks better we can investigate and see if there is a way to improve Dynamic Tone Mapping.
Thanks Jim

Hopefully the raised nit point release is an easy turnaround, curious to test that - also would be nice to the see the left cursor quick menu updated to reflect both hi and lo settings, and perhaps the DTM yes/no & level (1-8) options all in one space.

UPDATED 4/29/17 Thrang's Home Theater (for now...)
Sony VPL-VW5000es • Panamorph Paladin DCR • Trinnov Altitude 16 • Crown DCIn amplifiers • JBL M2 (LCR-LW-RW) • JBL S2S-EX subwoofers x2 • JBL SCL-4 (side/rear surrounds) • JBL SCS12 (x4) SCS8 (x2) TH/RH/TM • Lumagen Radiance Pro • Panasonic UB820 • Apple TV 4k • Synology RAID (45 TB total storage) • RTI control system
thrang is offline  
post #4055 of 4854 Old 03-01-2019, 02:16 PM
Senior Member
 
KarlKlammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 299
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 250 Post(s)
Liked: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
For example there is a scene at the very beginning of "The Martian" where the sun rises behind the dark shape of mars. The aura/halo around the sun looks ugly to me with DTM compared with IM.
I just found out that DTM is not the reason behind this artifact. It happens when activating the dynamic iris that also manipulates the gamma.
It seems to be an odd coincidence, that this doesn't happen with IM.
giomania, Craig Peer and bobof like this.

Projection: JVC DLA-NX9
VP/Calibration: Lumagen Radiance Pro, LightSpace CMS, x-rite i1 Pro 2, x-rite i1 Display 3

Last edited by KarlKlammer; 03-01-2019 at 02:19 PM.
KarlKlammer is offline  
post #4056 of 4854 Old 03-01-2019, 07:07 PM
Advanced Member
 
Roland Janus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 535
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by darksets View Post
I assume you have it set to SDR output. With only using the 100 increment it was easy for me. When I start with a low value like 200 the picture is too bright and washed out, as I keep increasing it gets darker but also gains contrast. Past a certain value it's too dark. I choose the highest number before the picture gets too dark. I imagine with 1 point increments it would be a lot harder to find the optimal value, that's probably best left to a professional calibrator.
aehm no. Didn't get to the point doing that.

I noticed today (with HDR out) that I need to get closer to 800-1000 on the Sony 5000 or some lighter objects would just disappear.

I'm looking for something more repeatable then random content. Is there maybe a good scene where watching out for something specific would help determine that value?
Roland Janus is offline  
post #4057 of 4854 Old 03-01-2019, 09:14 PM
Member
 
darksets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hoboken, NJ
Posts: 182
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland Janus View Post
aehm no. Didn't get to the point doing that.

I noticed today (with HDR out) that I need to get closer to 800-1000 on the Sony 5000 or some lighter objects would just disappear.

I'm looking for something more repeatable then random content. Is there maybe a good scene where watching out for something specific would help determine that value?
With HDR out Display Max Light settings are supposed to be in the 3000-9900 range. But even with a Sony 5000 you won't get a good picture with HDR out, you need to use SDR2020 output and then DML is supposed to be in the 200-600 range. I believe for your projector a good value is 400-500.

Last edited by darksets; 03-01-2019 at 09:28 PM.
darksets is offline  
post #4058 of 4854 Old 03-01-2019, 11:31 PM
Member
 
Htnut2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 130
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 85
Quote:
Originally Posted by darksets View Post
With HDR out Display Max Light settings are supposed to be in the 3000-9900 range. But even with a Sony 5000 you won't get a good picture with HDR out, you need to use SDR2020 output and then DML is supposed to be in the 200-600 range. I believe for your projector a good value is 400-500.

I am now totally confused by this post and some previous ones regarding Display Max Light.

I thought that Display Max Light should be set to the maximum nits that the display device can output. I have been measuring this from my projector, setting this in the menu and using the ratio to fine tune it according to content.

I don't understand why one would set this value to be above the display device's capability.

Is that not the main reason for tone mapping?

If I have misunderstood I would greatly appreciate being corrected
Htnut2000 is offline  
post #4059 of 4854 Old 03-01-2019, 11:55 PM
Advanced Member
 
dlinsley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 990
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 488 Post(s)
Liked: 378
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post
As I get closer to actually running my first auto calibration, I am seeing some posts with reference of issues with ChromaPure. What are those issues?

Also, I am wondering if there is any appreciable difference in communication success or failures between these two connection options, which need to be around 30-40 feet:

A USB-A (Laptop end) to USB-B cable (Radiance end)

-or-

A USB-Serial / RS-232 Adapter (Laptop end) to Serial / RS-232 cable (Radiance end)

Thanks for any input.

Mark
I use this 36ft active USB A-B when calibrating: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It works without issue connecting my laptop or hub to the Radiance, and also between my laptop and hub.
giomania likes this.
dlinsley is offline  
post #4060 of 4854 Old 03-01-2019, 11:57 PM
Senior Member
 
KarlKlammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 299
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 250 Post(s)
Liked: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Htnut2000 View Post
I thought that Display Max Light should be set to the maximum nits that the display device can output. I have been measuring this from my projector, setting this in the menu and using the ratio to fine tune it according to content.

I don't understand why one would set this value to be above the display device's capability.
This is what Jim wrote about Display Max Light some time ago:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
Display Max Light: For HDR in to SDR out, it is approximately the display Max Nit output. However, there is a multiplier for the screen size similar to the cosmological constant. That is a fudge factor to account for screen size. For HDR out, the Display Max Light is what the TV/projector is expecting. This is really 10000 nits for HDR10. However, if you turn down the “HDR slider” on the projector/TV, assuming there is one and assuming it works similar to the Sony 5000’s, you can drop the Display Max for HDR output down some. Note though that even if Display Max Light = 5000 nits is not too bright a setting, this only leaves a 2:1 ratio for HDR Intensity Mapping to work with and given roll off is needed you really can’t see much effect. So we are working on ways to do a 3D LUT that assumes a HDR EOTF but a maximum level of something more in the 1000 nit range to get a 10:1 ratio for the HDR Intensity Mapping to work with.

Projection: JVC DLA-NX9
VP/Calibration: Lumagen Radiance Pro, LightSpace CMS, x-rite i1 Pro 2, x-rite i1 Display 3
KarlKlammer is offline  
post #4061 of 4854 Old 03-02-2019, 01:38 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mhafner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 4,923
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 246 Post(s)
Liked: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
It is not possible to get perfect results for every scene using Dynamic Tone Mapping.
Just a terminology remark. No device so far can do automatic tone mapping based on scenes unless a human operator has input the scene starting and ending frames. It's all based on shots, the frames between edits/cuts. That alone is difficult enough since identifying a cut is not always straightforward (false positives and missed cuts). Reliable scene detection would require an AI approach. Dolby Vision and HDR10+ are very useful in this regard as the AI part can be done by humans understanding the content and desired esthetic effect, which remains elusive for programs for the forseeable future.

Last edited by mhafner; 03-16-2019 at 06:39 AM.
mhafner is offline  
post #4062 of 4854 Old 03-02-2019, 01:57 AM
aka jfinnie
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 2,866
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2326 Post(s)
Liked: 1465
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post
Just a terminology remark. No device so far can do automatic tone mapping based on scenes unless a human operator has input the scene starting and ending frames. It's all based on shots, the frames between edits/cuts. That alone is difficult enough since identifying a cut is not always straightforward (false positives and missed cuts). Reliable scene detection would require an AI approaches. Dolby Vision and HDR10+ are very useful in this regard as the AI part can be done by humans understanding the content and desired esthetic effect, which remains elusive for programs for the forseeable future.
I'm not sure what your definition of device is, but scene change detection is quite feasible with a pretty good success rate (embedded device suitable for live content) and very good (offline processing of movies before playout in a PC).
bobof is online now  
post #4063 of 4854 Old 03-02-2019, 04:19 AM
aka jfinnie
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 2,866
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2326 Post(s)
Liked: 1465
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
I think saying that having more controls means the job is not done ignores that different producers do things differently, and every person has their personal preferences. The only way to deal with this is enough controls to tune the image to personal taste and compensate for differences in the content. I don't get that people say there are too many controls when they do not have to use them since the default settings are extremely good.
We're all doomed in that case...

It's as much a complaint about the general state of HDR playback as anything else, if we really do need a bank of sliders to optimize this stuff then so be it. Reality is though for me if it really is necessary to tweak movies on a per title basis, then with that big list of controls to fiddle it isn't going to happen, it just gets in the way of watching. I'm a design engineer by day, but allergic to doing anything other than pressing play to watch a movie - you know I've been trying to get all the auto aspect stuff up to scratch (which works great now!).

It probably breaks down that if you get to the point where you have a correction LUT that gets to to correct 2.4 gamma for the projector, that the default settings work once you fiddle the max light parameter (they seem to work well for me) and all the user should really need to do is make some content dependent adjustment if they're watching a particularly "dark" or overly "bright" piece of content. Hopefully those kind of things could be available "out of the box" as useful presets that could be selected quickly, rather than having to interview different pieces of content to set it up, cursor up through various parameter values, which just seems like it shouldn't be really necessary to get to 95%.

The other thing that perhaps would help de-obfuscate the behaviour of the various controls would be showing a graphical representation of the tone curve as you adjust the settings.
cargen, Roland Janus and darksets like this.
bobof is online now  
post #4064 of 4854 Old 03-02-2019, 04:34 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Great job on the dynamic tone mapping. However, my JVC is now switching to HDR mode whatever the signal is? I’ve had to switch the HDR flag off temporarily.

Anyone else noticed this?
Mark Burton is offline  
post #4065 of 4854 Old 03-02-2019, 04:37 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
thrang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 7,123
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2506 Post(s)
Liked: 2027
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Burton View Post
Great job on the dynamic tone mapping. However, my JVC is now switching to HDR mode whatever the signal is? I’ve had to switch the HDR flag off temporarily.

Anyone else noticed this?
No

UPDATED 4/29/17 Thrang's Home Theater (for now...)
Sony VPL-VW5000es • Panamorph Paladin DCR • Trinnov Altitude 16 • Crown DCIn amplifiers • JBL M2 (LCR-LW-RW) • JBL S2S-EX subwoofers x2 • JBL SCL-4 (side/rear surrounds) • JBL SCS12 (x4) SCS8 (x2) TH/RH/TM • Lumagen Radiance Pro • Panasonic UB820 • Apple TV 4k • Synology RAID (45 TB total storage) • RTI control system
thrang is offline  
post #4066 of 4854 Old 03-02-2019, 06:06 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
mhafner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 4,923
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 246 Post(s)
Liked: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I'm not sure what your definition of device is, but scene change detection is quite feasible with a pretty good success rate (embedded device suitable for live content) and very good (offline processing of movies before playout in a PC).
A realtime device like Lumagen which can store only very few frames at the same time. Even for humans it can be unclear where a scene starts or ends when the normal editing conventions are not used.
mhafner is offline  
post #4067 of 4854 Old 03-02-2019, 07:19 AM
Member
 
darksets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hoboken, NJ
Posts: 182
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Liked: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Htnut2000 View Post
I am now totally confused by this post and some previous ones regarding Display Max Light.

I thought that Display Max Light should be set to the maximum nits that the display device can output. I have been measuring this from my projector, setting this in the menu and using the ratio to fine tune it according to content.

I don't understand why one would set this value to be above the display device's capability.

Is that not the main reason for tone mapping?

If I have misunderstood I would greatly appreciate being corrected
Whatever the name is, "Display Max Light" should not be interpreted literally. From the Radiance Pro manual:

"With HDR Intensity Mapping control parameters at default values, use the Display Max Light as a coarse
"brightness" control. When outputting HDR source in HDR mode (CMS Colorspace = HDR2020 and Gamma to
3D LUT = HDR or Auto), typical Display Max Light settings range from about 3000 to 9900. For SDR output
mode (CMS Colorspace = SDR2020), typical Display Max Light settings are in the range of 200 to 600 for a
projector, or 200 to 800 for a current TV. The Display Max Light setting is higher for HDR output, because the
display'€™s internal Tone Mapping is already reducing the HDR input to match the display's actual light output..."

With a projector, to get the best picture enable HDR Intensity Mapping by setting the colorspace to SDR2020:

MENU -> Output -> CMSs -> CMS1
Colorspace = SDR2020
HDR Mapping = On
Gamma to 3D LUT = SDR

and then set the Display Max Light between 200 and 600.
Mike_WI and bobof like this.
darksets is offline  
post #4068 of 4854 Old 03-02-2019, 08:02 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 363
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 174 Post(s)
Liked: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
Wow, we sure did stir up the hornet's nest.



Here's an update.



- I checked with Patrick, and it turns out that that HLG does not yet support Dynamic Tone Mapping. We will implement HLG Dynamic Tone Mapping, but it might be a bit before we can get it in the code.



- Currently for Dynamic Tone Mapping the "Low-Set" Shape and Transition parameters do not affect the Dynamic Tone Mapping. Thrang was first to point this out (that I saw). Turns out to be that the "Low" curve is lower than his setting for Display Max Light of 400. Without getting into too many details, if you are doing HDR and the "display" says it has more range then the source needs (this case) then no Tone Mapping is needed since the "display" can render the entire range of the source. As an example if you have a 1000 nit TV and a 1000 nit source you can render the source without tone mapping, but for a 4000 nit source you would need tone mapping.



- So while this is *not* a bug, it is a choice we are reconsidering. Based on feedback the current choice works very well, other than the Low-Set Shape and Transition do not change the transfer function.



- I actually designed the low to high Tone Mapping Blend equations to allow the current Frame MaxCLL to be well below the low-curve-nit-point, and to also be able to be well above the high-curve-nit-point. This is because originally I planned on the low curve being higher than we ended up with, and just plain did not consider the effect using a much lower nit curve would have on using Shape and Transition.



- We are now planning to raise the "nit point" of the low-nit curve up so that for devices in the <700 nits range Shape and Transition will have some effect on the transfer function. This should give extra control for Dynamic Tone Mapping and *may* help tune the scenes referenced in the various posts.



=====



Some general comments on Dynamic Tone Mapping:



It is not possible to get perfect results for every scene using Dynamic Tone Mapping. Also, Dynamic Tone Mapping results will be different than Static to some degree. For almost all scenes the Dynamic Tone Mapping results should be better than Static Tone Mapping.



Tone Mapping is all about trade-offs. If you are trying to reproduce Mad Max Fury Road with a MaxCLL of 9919-ish nits on a 100 nit projector, something's gotta give. In general we believe allocating more of the range to low and mid-tones and allowing highlights to show some clamping looks the best. You may not agree (and you have controls to change this if you wish).



I think saying that having more controls means the job is not done ignores that different producers do things differently, and every person has their personal preferences. The only way to deal with this is enough controls to tune the image to personal taste and compensate for differences in the content. I don't get that people say there are too many controls when they do not have to use them since the default settings are extremely good.



We spent a great deal of effort on tuning Static HDR Mapping. I want to thank everyone who gave us feedback on optimal settings for Static Tone Mapping. A special thanks to Kris Deering who's feedback and parameter settings were instrumental in getting the Static Tone Mapping tuned and selecting the current parameter defaults we use for Static Tone Mapping.



If a scene "looks better" with static as compared to Dynamic Tone Mapping, then it likely means that the Static MaxCLL number was "wrong," but happily so in that it improved the scene slightly. Of course as people point scenes where they think Static Tone Mapping looks better we can investigate and see if there is a way to improve Dynamic Tone Mapping.


I am pretty sure there is a lot will come with DTM that’s way I will hold for a while about it until it become more stable and sure this will be soo soon


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
A7mad78 is online now  
post #4069 of 4854 Old 03-02-2019, 08:05 AM
aka jfinnie
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 2,866
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2326 Post(s)
Liked: 1465
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post
A realtime device like Lumagen which can store only very few frames at the same time. Even for humans it can be unclear where a scene starts or ends when the normal editing conventions are not used.
Sure, I'm sceptical also, obviously you can't catch every scene single scene change, the question is can you catch enough significant scene changes to make significant improvement, while not getting false positives resulting in pumping. So far I've not seen any such pumping from the Lumagen - maybe it is quite conservative in detecting new scenes, which has to be the best option. I've definitely seen a general improvement in the presented images from playing with DTM so far.

Unfortunately at the moment we don't have any better option for our projection systems if we need to do this with live content. There is no dynamic metadata format with significant content availability that is open to us; DV availability is probably going to happen... never... for us, and it's unclear that HDR10+ is going to gain any traction (and HDR10+ doesn't mandate the human oversight you're hoping for, anyway). HDR10+ correctly implemented to the maximum spec has potential to solve everything for us and remove the need for DTM - I believe they could code something resembling the cinematic "EDR" map onto the retail HDR10+ content via an alternative extended display mapping metadata block with an appropriately set "target_max_PQ"
(https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_ts...72v010101p.pdf)
But seeing as plenty of companies are struggling to put ANY metadata on HDR10 content, unless the authoring process does this for them I'm not holding out much hope.

---

@jrp - I recall there is the potential in the Lumagen to have quite a substantial video delay (isn't it something like 6 frames max, which is pretty huge at 24p?) For folk who can tolerate the extra lag (ie not gamers) could there be any performance benefit to having a DTM mode which used the maximal amount of video buffers, giving a bigger horizon onto what is coming up?
Mike_WI likes this.
bobof is online now  
post #4070 of 4854 Old 03-02-2019, 04:33 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 15,772
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6612 Post(s)
Liked: 7677
I've got the latest firmware loaded and tried the HDR Dynamic Intensity Mapping today. So far it looks really good. Another step up picture wise ! Watching the 4K Blu-ray "Overlord " tonight with it !
bferbrache, Mike_WI and bobof like this.
Craig Peer is offline  
post #4071 of 4854 Old 03-02-2019, 10:20 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 15,772
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6612 Post(s)
Liked: 7677
I just watched Overlord on 4K Blu-ray tonight with 5 friends that had no clue what they were watching. They loved it ! What a great WWII / sci fi mashup ! The picture and sound are most definitely reference quality! Picture detail is amazing - one guest remarked on the way out how even the gravel and dirt looked so detailed and realistic. The Dynamic HDR Tone Mapping worked really well. I also have my RS4500 set on the less aggressive mode 1 laser dimming. I see zero artifacts, problems or stumbles. Great job Jim. It's easy to see what the dynamic tone mapping is doing using the Alt button and toggling it on and off. Now I need to re-watch John Wick 2 and Arrival ( to name two ).
Mike_WI likes this.
Craig Peer is offline  
post #4072 of 4854 Old 03-03-2019, 01:57 AM
Member
 
Kerlucun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Brittany France
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 14
I wanted to test the HDR/SDR-Autoconvert functions and obtained the same results for HDR and SDR.
I thought I was getting a 2.4 gamma for SDR and I actually got a ST2084 PQ identical to the HDR.
Is it a Lumagen problem or a configuration error on my part?
Thank you for your help

Vidéo: Écran fixe Da-Lite HC-HP ( base3 m,gris, g 2.4), JVC X5000 , Radiance 4442, Pana BD820, VU SOLO 4K/VTI V11, HDFURY Integral, Denon X3300W
HiFi: Tri_amp active, enceintes DIY Phoenix de S. Linkwitz, Tact RCS et 3*S2150, VU+ Duo/VTI V11/Quad FM4
Kerlucun is offline  
post #4073 of 4854 Old 03-03-2019, 01:58 AM
Member
 
loggeo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Rhodes, Greece
Posts: 175
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Liked: 71
Tried it myself yesterday watching Justice league. I 've got mixed feelings. Overall it looks pretty good! At some cases there was a lot of clipping compared to (edit) static tone mapping but that resulted an overall brighter picture in the background. There was just no way that I could adjust the dynamic tone mapping level to come closer to my original static tone mapping settings.

Last edited by loggeo; 03-03-2019 at 10:47 AM.
loggeo is offline  
post #4074 of 4854 Old 03-03-2019, 10:46 AM
jrp
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jrp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posts: 1,462
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 373 Post(s)
Liked: 938
Dynamic Tone Mapping

Someone asked for more details on Dynamic Tone Mapping. I think many would be interested and so am posting my answer here.

Similar to the human eye's iris constricting for bright conditions, or opening for dark conditions, Dynamic Tone Mapping works to maximize the image quality for every scene's brightness. Consider a 100 nit projector. The Radiance Pro dynamic Tone Mapping will change to use the 100 nit range for a 100 nit scene. Essentially this maps 0 to 100 nits scene source to 0 to 100 nits output, which in turn maximizes image quality. For a very bright scene to improve the bright content the Radiance Pro changes the transfer function so that the brightest object in the scene maps to 100 nits and then uses the Tone Mapping parameters to make the appropriate trade-offs for all other intensities from black to the brightest objects so as to maximize image quality.

The Dynamic Tone Mapping detects scene changes, calculates the new scene's MaxCLL (brightest pixels), and then sets the Radiance Pro Tone Mapping transfer function based on this new MaxCLL for the entire scene. This task is significantly complicated by "scene fade in" and so there are many special cases to deal with. So please consider the Radiance Pro Dynamic Tone Mapping a work in progress - even though it is working extremely well already.

Dynamic Tone Mapping then uses the scene's MaxCLL to interpolate between the Low-set of parameters (called <=2500 nit parameter set in Static mode), and the High-set of parameters (called >2500 nits parameter set in Static mode). So these parameter sets are still used. NOTE: With the current release (011119) the Low-set Shape and Transition do not have any visible effect. We are working on a change to the algorithm so they do have some effect. Should be in a released in the next week.

Note: For Dynamic Tone Mapping it does not make sense to change the MaxCLL on every frame. This would look bad. This is in part due to distracting changes in the background intensity that should not happen. So the Pro changes the MaxCLL on a scene by scene basis.

The Dynamic Level control in MENU->Input->Option->HDR Setup->DynamicLevel ranges from 1 (the HDR10 Static Metadata has some effect on moderating changes to the dynamically calculated MaxCLL), to 8 (uses the calculated MaxCLL almost exclusively).

Please note that you may want to tune the HDR Mapping parameters while Dynamic Tone Mapping is on since there is some difference in the image from Static mode settings. We are still working on best practices for this. However, you should use a dark movie (such as Blade Runner 2049, once the next release is out so changes can be seen) for the low-set, and a bright movie (such as Mad Max Fury Road at 28:29) for the high-set, parameters.

Note that HLG is not yet implemented for Dynamic Tone Mapping.

If you have specific scenes that you believe we can improve please email lumagen.com support with the source device, the source original mode (HLG, HDR10, Dolby Vision even if converted to HDR10), the source's mode as sent to the Radiance Pro, the program/movie and timestamp.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
jrp is offline  
post #4075 of 4854 Old 03-03-2019, 04:22 PM
jrp
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jrp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posts: 1,462
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 373 Post(s)
Liked: 938
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
@jrp - I recall there is the potential in the Lumagen to have quite a substantial video delay (isn't it something like 6 frames max, which is pretty huge at 24p?) For folk who can tolerate the extra lag (ie not gamers) could there be any performance benefit to having a DTM mode which used the maximal amount of video buffers, giving a bigger horizon onto what is coming up?
Patrick is doing all the heuristics for scene detection and the special cases it creates. He says that the six frames of delay would *not* improve scene detection or the scene transition logic.
Mike_WI and bobof like this.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
jrp is offline  
post #4076 of 4854 Old 03-03-2019, 04:34 PM
jrp
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jrp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posts: 1,462
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 373 Post(s)
Liked: 938
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerlucun View Post
I wanted to test the HDR/SDR-Autoconvert functions and obtained the same results for HDR and SDR.
I thought I was getting a 2.4 gamma for SDR and I actually got a ST2084 PQ identical to the HDR.
Is it a Lumagen problem or a configuration error on my part?
Thank you for your help
Your TV/projector, or if you do a 1D LUT calibration the calibration, determine the Gamma for SDR in to out. At default there is no Gamma change in the Pro for SDR in to out. For HDR "output in a SDR container" the Pro tone map assumes you have the projector/tv set to Gamma=2.4 or you did a LUT calibration to Gamma=2.4.

The procedure we recommend is to select your output format and any conversion and then do a calibration to the specified Gamma.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
jrp is offline  
post #4077 of 4854 Old 03-03-2019, 10:33 PM
Senior Member
 
KarlKlammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Germany
Posts: 299
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 250 Post(s)
Liked: 243
@jrp
It would be nice to see the current scene maxCLL in one of the info screens.
Mike_WI, Wookii and stefanop like this.

Projection: JVC DLA-NX9
VP/Calibration: Lumagen Radiance Pro, LightSpace CMS, x-rite i1 Pro 2, x-rite i1 Display 3
KarlKlammer is offline  
post #4078 of 4854 Old 03-04-2019, 12:45 AM
Member
 
Kerlucun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Brittany France
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 14
@jrp
My idea was to use the SDR2020 conversion (pure math) and generate a 3dlut UHD Rec2020 of this configuration with Lightspace.
All that remained was to use the Dynamic Tone Mapping to complete the transformation.
But maybe it’s a bad idea.
Anyway by testing on my TV REC709 Gamma 2.4/2.5 the Autoconvert function I get the same result with HDR2020 and SDR2020,
same gamut, even 'Gamma' when I expected the SDR2020 Gamma to stay at 2.4/2.5, otherwise why have 2 functions (HDR2020 and SDR2020)?
Attached Files
File Type: zip HDR2020_Autoconvert.zip (3.0 KB, 14 views)
File Type: zip SDR2020_Autoconvert.zip (2.9 KB, 10 views)

Vidéo: Écran fixe Da-Lite HC-HP ( base3 m,gris, g 2.4), JVC X5000 , Radiance 4442, Pana BD820, VU SOLO 4K/VTI V11, HDFURY Integral, Denon X3300W
HiFi: Tri_amp active, enceintes DIY Phoenix de S. Linkwitz, Tact RCS et 3*S2150, VU+ Duo/VTI V11/Quad FM4
Kerlucun is offline  
post #4079 of 4854 Old 03-04-2019, 06:21 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Wookii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,419
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2859 Post(s)
Liked: 2047
I had chance to have a play with the new Dynmaic Tone Mapping over the weekend, and I have to say I'm incredibly impressed! I've had high hopes for DTM since it was announced quite some time ago, but the improvement in image quality I'm seeing on HDR material is more than I'd hoped for.

I've tried a few different titles, including BR2049 and Coco (as they've been referenced by other in this thread already), Passengers, Ghost in the Shell, Underworld Blood Wars and a couple of scenes from both Oblivion and Mad Max.

Pretty much across the board the image becomes much more dynamic and punchy, with brighter highlights and greater gradation on dark areas, but particularly on those films with darker scenes - Passengers looked superb, and it made a huge difference to Underworld Blood Wars which is incredibly dark and 'crushed' in many scenes. DTM clearly adds greater gradation, and hence more apparent detail in darker scenes which produces more visual depth to the image - I guess I really hadn't appreciated just how much of the displays dynamic range was being left on the table with static tone mapping. Hats off to Jim and Patrick, they've done a terrific job with this update.

@Thang - I tried that scene in Coco that you showed screen shots for Greg, and no matter how I adjusted the DTM settings or DML, I couldn't replicate the loss of detail (in the stone etc) shown in your images. It might mean therefore that there is something else in your video chain, or calibration that is interacting with DTM in a way that doesn't happen in my set-up?
Wookii is online now  
post #4080 of 4854 Old 03-04-2019, 08:13 AM
jrp
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jrp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posts: 1,462
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 373 Post(s)
Liked: 938
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
@jrp
It would be nice to see the current scene maxCLL in one of the info screens.
For the initial Dynamic Tone Mapping release (011119) and later, we have updated the MENU 0532 debug command that previously allowed seeing pixels brighter than a set value blink red, or do profiling of the video, to now, in addition, show a live MaxCLL (and MaxY) calculation. Note that before using MENU 0532 degraded the image quality. This is no longer the case. You can use "Live" or "Profile" options of the MENU 0532 debug command without the image degrading.

Enter MENU 0532. The "live MaxCLL" display comes up. If you left/right arrow to the left column you can change the current debug function between the three options.

The "Filt" is how many pixels need to be above the reported level for it to be considered the MaxCLL. You can change the size of the filter area, but it seems you need to arrow away from the column for this, and then back, before it will allow the change. You change the kernel size with the up or down arrow.

The "MaxCLL" is the Pro's calculated MaxCLL for a single frame, and it reports about a frame per second.

The "MaxY" is the Pro's calculated maximum Luma value ("Y" which is the weighted R, G, B value) for a single frame which is the same frame, and same pixels, as the reported MaxCLL.

If the MaxCLL and MaxY are nearly the same, it means the brightest pixels are near the Gray Vector. If they are significantly different it means the pixels for the reported MaxCLL are more saturated.

I used this feature a lot when testing Dynamic Tone Mapping to judge the image brightness and then see if the Dynamic Tone Mapping decisions seemed reasonable.
giomania, dlinsley, mikela and 4 others like this.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen
jrp is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Video Processors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off