New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 138 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4111 of 4877 Old 03-07-2019, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post
Sounds good.
I even have the control wires pulled to my JVC. Just never used.
Could this also be done via the Lumagen alone?
Not without a fair bit of work by Lumagen, and even then it would be a little bit sub-optimal as it could only be over RS232 (so you'd need a huge serial lead to the projector, or serial over HDbaseT or similar).

They'd basically have to give the ability to send arbitrary control strings over the serial port on the back of some change happening. Of course setting these strings up would be torture if you had to do it via the remote control.

An external box to do it is a better and more flexible approach.

It is possible I believe to also do this with an HDFury Vertex, but that adds another HDMI device which has to be best avoided in what are already quite long chains.
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post #4112 of 4877 Old 03-07-2019, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Not without a fair bit of work by Lumagen, and even then it would be a little bit sub-optimal as it could only be over RS232 (so you'd need a huge serial lead to the projector, or serial over HDbaseT or similar).



They'd basically have to give the ability to send arbitrary control strings over the serial port on the back of some change happening. Of course setting these strings up would be torture if you had to do it via the remote control.



An external box to do it is a better and more flexible approach.



It is possible I believe to also do this with an HDFury Vertex, but that adds another HDMI device which has to be best avoided in what are already quite long chains.


Crestron driver can handle this I am not an expert in that but they made it for me possible and it change whatever source is to the right choice


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post #4113 of 4877 Old 03-07-2019, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
With a raspberry PI and a bit of python (or pretty much any commercial RS232 / IP capable control system) it should be quite simple to detect the HDR source from the Lumagen and send an IP command to the projector to switch to whatever mode suits best. I'm about to extend the Python script I use for auto aspect control of my screen masking to do exactly that to my X7900 (because the HDR flag only allows you to choose a limited selection of colour profiles). Would it be useful to you?


So you are not only using the recommended SDR2020 or P3D65 (IIRC for P3 Matrix conversion) to send HDR in an SDR container to the projector?


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post #4114 of 4877 Old 03-07-2019, 01:54 PM
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So you are not only using the recommended SDR2020 or P3D65 (IIRC for P3 Matrix conversion) to send HDR in an SDR container to the projector?
If you want to have different levels of peak white for SDR vs HDR then you have two choices, you either make a LUT to artificially limit peak white (which reduces your SDR contrast) or you switch the projector into a different mode with different iris and hence peak white. I have a P3D65 2.4gamma LUT for HDR, and a separate REC709 LUT for SDR. These are profiled against different user modes in the JVC with different peak white.
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post #4115 of 4877 Old 03-07-2019, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
If you want to have different levels of peak white for SDR vs HDR then you have two choices, you either make a LUT to artificially limit peak white (which reduces your SDR contrast) or you switch the projector into a different mode with different iris and hence peak white. I have a P3D65 2.4gamma LUT for HDR, and a separate REC709 LUT for SDR. These are profiled against different user modes in the JVC with different peak white.


Thank you. That makes sense. I thought the User modes in the JVC were not able to save different Iris settings? Or is it they can’t save filter on and filter off settings?

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post #4116 of 4877 Old 03-07-2019, 02:25 PM
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Thank you. That makes sense. I thought the User modes in the JVC were not able to save different Iris settings? Or is it they can’t save filter on and filter off settings?
User modes can save iris settings fine, and also in a roundabout way filter settings (by setting the colour profile for the user mode to profiles with the filter enabled).

You can't enable the filter in a straightforward fashion though for the most linear Profile off mode (though there is a workaround using a special IR / IP control code).

HDR flag on X7900 can't select a user mode though, it can only select the HDR mode, which has limited colour profiles supported (and not the linear profile off mode), hence the reason for working around it using an external controller.

I think on the newer N5...NX9 range the HDR flag can be set to select other modes. Still no filter on / profile off mode though.
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post #4117 of 4877 Old 03-07-2019, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
It is possible I believe to also do this with an HDFury Vertex, but that adds another HDMI device which has to be best avoided in what are already quite long chains.
I was doing this with the Vertex to control my RS600, but took it out with the RS3000 as I thought I wasnt going to need it. However, my satellite TV receiver always outputs SDR in 2020 and will require me to add it back to keep things 100% automated.

If you have two HDMI cables you can solve the long chain issue. I left my previous cable installed when I added the RuiPro, and so have my old cable connected to a Lumagen 9G output and at the projector end it connects to the Vertex. The Vertex does not have it's HDMI output connected. The Lumagen will downconvert to 8bpp on the 9G output, while leaving the 18G output untouched, so that the Vertex still sees HDR, colorspace etc, and so can switch the JVC correctly.
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post #4118 of 4877 Old 03-07-2019, 09:10 PM
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FWIW, I have two different memory settings on my Epson LS10000. One for rec709 with the DCI filter disengaged and a reduced iris and laser light level and one for HDR/2020 with the filter engage and light power turned up.

I then use the Lumagen trigger out configured to change when a HDR input signal is active to automatically change between them. It works great.
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post #4119 of 4877 Old 03-07-2019, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by dlinsley View Post
I was doing this with the Vertex to control my RS600, but took it out with the RS3000 as I thought I wasnt going to need it. However, my satellite TV receiver always outputs SDR in 2020 and will require me to add it back to keep things 100% automated.

If you have two HDMI cables you can solve the long chain issue. I left my previous cable installed when I added the RuiPro, and so have my old cable connected to a Lumagen 9G output and at the projector end it connects to the Vertex. The Vertex does not have it's HDMI output connected. The Lumagen will downconvert to 8bpp on the 9G output, while leaving the 18G output untouched, so that the Vertex still sees HDR, colorspace etc, and so can switch the JVC correctly.
Sounds like you've got a Lumagen with more than one output card? I've only got a 4242 with a single 18G video out and the 9G audio out (which doesn't carry the HDR signalling as far as I know). So I'd have to put it "in circuit" somewhere.

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Originally Posted by jamesmil View Post
FWIW, I have two different memory settings on my Epson LS10000. One for rec709 with the DCI filter disengaged and a reduced iris and laser light level and one for HDR/2020 with the filter engage and light power turned up.

I then use the Lumagen trigger out configured to change when a HDR input signal is active to automatically change between them. It works great.
Cool! How does that work - does the Epson have a trigger input that can choose different memories? (I couldn't see one?) Or are you feeding the trigger out to something else that sends a command to the Epson?
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post #4120 of 4877 Old 03-08-2019, 06:04 AM
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I've been thinking about how I'll be setting up my X7500 when I calibrate it for use with the DTM. I seem to remember that one difference from mine to the newer X7900 is that I can't use dynamic iris in HDR mode and I prefer to use it. So I wouldn't be able to use the SDH mode refered to earlier in this thread to automatically change my projector's mode.

I guess I'll just have to manually change the user mode in the X7500 depending what I'm going to watch (UHD or BD) first and the Lumagen will work out whether to use CMS0 or CMS1 accordingly?

Also, once I've calibrated for the SDR2020 mode and saved it to CMS1, I presume I can then change my projector setting and just calibrate CMS0 to my usual 2.2 gamma/rec709 for BD sources?

Since I need 4 modes (SDR/rec709 for scope and 16:9 zoomed, plus SDR/rec202 for scope and 16:9 zoomed) I would do each calibration using CMS0, then copy it to another slot and set up that memory to select (for example) CMS2 for scope SDR/rec709 and CMS3 would be automatically selected when I play a UHD disc for scope SDR/rec2020.

So as a sanity check I plan to do the following:
MemA for 16:9 zooming, CMS0 for BD, CMS1 for UHD (DTM)
MemB for zoomed to scope, CMS2 for BD, CMS3 for UHD (DTM)
I'll need to set up and then manually select 4 User modes in the X7500 to match each of the above CMS#s.

Does this look right?

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post #4121 of 4877 Old 03-08-2019, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Sounds like you've got a Lumagen with more than one output card? I've only got a 4242 with a single 18G video out and the 9G audio out (which doesn't carry the HDR signalling as far as I know). So I'd have to put it "in circuit" somewhere.

Cool! How does that work - does the Epson have a trigger input that can choose different memories? (I couldn't see one?) Or are you feeding the trigger out to something else that sends a command to the Epson?
In my case I'm using a URC remote controller, as it was already in place and it was very easy to use the trigger out as a signal for that. When it sees the signal change, it changes the memory position on the Epson. I'm sure there are other approaches that would work as well. Props again to Jim and Patrick, who added HDR trigger capability to the Radiance Pro at my request for this.
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post #4122 of 4877 Old 03-08-2019, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Sounds like you've got a Lumagen with more than one output card? I've only got a 4242 with a single 18G video out and the 9G audio out (which doesn't carry the HDR signalling as far as I know). So I'd have to put it "in circuit" somewhere.
Sorry, yes it hadn't occurred to me to think of newer boxes which were 18G from the off. I bought my Pro in 2015 and then the 18G card when they came out ~ autumn 2016 IIRC.
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post #4123 of 4877 Old 03-08-2019, 11:34 AM
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What determines which Lumagen Radiance Pro that would be needed for Projection System - Might have to bite the bullet if i choose to buy an RS4500 JVC projector and purchase a Panamorph DCR Lens in lieu of the standard Paladin Lens, Using the std. Paladin lens would cause me to have to move the projector farther back in my room at his point 1.5'-2' farther - that is not going to happen at this point.
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post #4124 of 4877 Old 03-08-2019, 01:19 PM
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Have a question about the new firmware. I just installed it. Before that, the High Luminance Desat param (and two other params) were split between above/below the maxcll threshold. Now, these three params are shared between the high/low tables.

That's fine, but before this new firmware, I had Desat set to 6 for >2500 and 0 for <=2500. What should I set it to now, given that this value is shared between the high/low tables?

I should mention that I plan to use the Dynamic Tone Mapping, and set the value to 8 (from the default of 5).

Thanks,

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post #4125 of 4877 Old 03-08-2019, 09:08 PM
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HI, in INFO Page 2 There are : Mastermin : .10000, Max : 1000 , MaxCLL : 927.
Can someone explain, what is the meaning of those number?

Should I set the MaxCLL to 900 in setting ?

Thx.
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post #4126 of 4877 Old 03-09-2019, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by fatherom View Post
Have a question about the new firmware. I just installed it. Before that, the High Luminance Desat param (and two other params) were split between above/below the maxcll threshold. Now, these three params are shared between the high/low tables.

That's fine, but before this new firmware, I had Desat set to 6 for >2500 and 0 for <=2500. What should I set it to now, given that this value is shared between the high/low tables?

I should mention that I plan to use the Dynamic Tone Mapping, and set the value to 8 (from the default of 5).

Thanks,

Chris
I believe the Desat parameter only effects the colour of the very brightest highlights, so really there is little need for it on lower peak MaxCLL titles. I’ve also found that the Desat parameter has even less of an impact now with DTM because the MaxCLL used for the tone mapping of most scenes is much lower than it was with static IM, so there are much fewer instances where Desat is needed.

In your case you should just set to 6, and leave it at that.

I’d be interested to know what everyone else has settled on for the various DTM parameters? I’ve found they seem to have much less impact on the image than with IM, leading me to generally just settle on the defaults (plus a single click in the gamma setting).

I don’t know if the parameters will have more of an impact in future updates, but right now it feels more of a simple “on/off” option for DTM, with less need to worry if you haven’t got the image dialled in correctly.
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post #4127 of 4877 Old 03-09-2019, 06:15 AM
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I’d be interested to know what everyone else has settled on for the various DTM parameters?
I leave it on 8 all the time. Could not figure any difference, just like to believe it reacts faster...
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post #4128 of 4877 Old 03-09-2019, 07:10 AM
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I leave it on 8 all the time. Could not figure any difference, just like to believe it reacts faster...
Are you referring to Desat? If so, yes, I leave it on 8 also.

My query above though was what everyone else had decided on for all the other DTM parameters (shape, transition, ratio etc). I’ve currently just left those on default values.
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How does the dynamic hdr tone mapping compared to the one on Madvr?
I am on the fence on buying either a lumagen radiance pro, a madvr envy, or build an HTPC. I am interested also on 3D LUT calibration.



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post #4130 of 4877 Old 03-09-2019, 03:59 PM
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Have another question for those using dynamic tone mapping. I think what I'm seeing is related to it, and it's not a problem per se, mainly just want to see if others have seen it.

I was showing my daughter some clips from A Star is Born and Bohemian Rhapsody, and going back and forth between the movie and the main menu. Whenever I hit 'menu' on the Oppo, and right when the main menu appears, there would be about 1 second (2 seconds, tops) of flickering/flashing...almost as if the dynamic tone mapping was trying to figure out how bright things should be. I also noticed it on the MPAA rating logo screen when we watched How to Train Your Dragon.

Have others experienced this?

Thanks,

Chris
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post #4131 of 4877 Old 03-09-2019, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I’d be interested to know what everyone else has settled on for the various DTM parameters? I’ve found they seem to have much less impact on the image than with IM, leading me to generally just settle on the defaults (plus a single click in the gamma setting).

I don’t know if the parameters will have more of an impact in future updates, but right now it feels more of a simple “on/off” option for DTM, with less need to worry if you haven’t got the image dialled in correctly.

I have all parameters on default with DTM level set to 8. Looks great.
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post #4132 of 4877 Old 03-09-2019, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatherom View Post
Have another question for those using dynamic tone mapping. I think what I'm seeing is related to it, and it's not a problem per se, mainly just want to see if others have seen it.

I was showing my daughter some clips from A Star is Born and Bohemian Rhapsody, and going back and forth between the movie and the main menu. Whenever I hit 'menu' on the Oppo, and right when the main menu appears, there would be about 1 second (2 seconds, tops) of flickering/flashing...almost as if the dynamic tone mapping was trying to figure out how bright things should be. I also noticed it on the MPAA rating logo screen when we watched How to Train Your Dragon.

Have others experienced this?

Thanks,

Chris
I’ve noticed this on Oceans Eight. Seems like it’s more he transition from indoor to outdoor scenes

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post #4133 of 4877 Old 03-09-2019, 06:06 PM
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I've never seen it (yet) in the midst of content. Only during the transitions of authored sections on the disc (like jumping to the main menu, or when the MPAA rating logo screen pops up)


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post #4134 of 4877 Old 03-10-2019, 03:40 AM
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I’ve noticed this on Oceans Eight. Seems like it’s more he transition from indoor to outdoor scenes
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I've never seen it (yet) in the midst of content. Only during the transitions of authored sections on the disc (like jumping to the main menu, or when the MPAA rating logo screen pops up)
Can’t say I’ve spotted this myself yet, but if you guys haven’t done so already, make sure you e-mail Jim and Patrick with the details (including time stamps if it’s mid-movie), so they can replicate it in their lab, and help them refine the DTM algo’s.
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post #4135 of 4877 Old 03-10-2019, 04:22 AM
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I had a play with DTM on my projector (X7500) last night. I'm still finishing some black velvet bits in my room, so haven't run a calibration yet, but was very impressed with how DTM worked it's magic with pretty much default settings. I've lowered the Max Light setting from 500 to 400 and increased the Dynamic HDR level to 6 from default of 5 and found the picture looked great, despite my test content being a particularly darkly shot series (Altered Carbon off Netflix, Sony X800 source). I'm waiting for some UHD discs to arrive, so will do more testing another day, hopefully after I've had chance to run a proper calibration first.
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post #4136 of 4877 Old 03-10-2019, 09:02 AM
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I've noticed something odd using the built in test patterns and my Sony X800 UHD player:

If I have the X800 switched on, then look at the Reference test pattern for Contrast 1, the 96% and 104% bars are not visible, regardless of how low I set the display's contrast setting. Same applies in the Adjust test pattern.

This also applies if I use the Ref/w mode and set the test mode to: Rec2020/HDR ON/1080.50p/3D OFF/CMS1/Style 0 (I'm testing using my TV to save powering up my projector, but it also behaves the same way).

If I turn the X800 off, or change to the other input with my PVR on, then the 96% and 104% bars can be made visible by adjusting the display's contrast.

I even changed the output resolution of my X800 to 1080i (same as my PVR) as a test and the bars are still not visible if the X800 is on. The Sony shows as HDCP 2.2 and the PVR as HDCP 1.x in the Lumagen info page, so that is the only difference I can see. The PVR is YCbCr 4:4:4 only, but changing the Sony to the same instead of 4:2:2 makes no difference.

My CMS are all cleared at the moment ready for running an autocalibration sometime soon. I just want to get all the basics set right beforehand.

Not sure if it's a Sony issue, or whether I should just ignore the issue and adjust the display with the Sony switched off, using Ref/w mode set to the appropriate values?

Might be worth me contacting Lumagen I guess, just wondered if anyone else had seen this?

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post #4137 of 4877 Old 03-10-2019, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post
I've noticed something odd using the built in test patterns and my Sony X800 UHD player:

If I have the X800 switched on, then look at the Reference test pattern for Contrast 1, the 96% and 104% bars are not visible, regardless of how low I set the display's contrast setting. Same applies in the Adjust test pattern.

This also applies if I use the Ref/w mode and set the test mode to: Rec2020/HDR ON/1080.50p/3D OFF/CMS1/Style 0 (I'm testing using my TV to save powering up my projector, but it also behaves the same way).

If I turn the X800 off, or change to the other input with my PVR on, then the 96% and 104% bars can be made visible by adjusting the display's contrast.

I even changed the output resolution of my X800 to 1080i (same as my PVR) as a test and the bars are still not visible if the X800 is on. The Sony shows as HDCP 2.2 and the PVR as HDCP 1.x in the Lumagen info page, so that is the only difference I can see. The PVR is YCbCr 4:4:4 only, but changing the Sony to the same instead of 4:2:2 makes no difference.

My CMS are all cleared at the moment ready for running an autocalibration sometime soon. I just want to get all the basics set right beforehand.

Not sure if it's a Sony issue, or whether I should just ignore the issue and adjust the display with the Sony switched off, using Ref/w mode set to the appropriate values?

Might be worth me contacting Lumagen I guess, just wondered if anyone else had seen this?

It has been mentioned before that when you do a calibration you should switch the Lumagen to an inactive input. I'm not sure that's the issue you are having but it certainly won't hurt.
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post #4138 of 4877 Old 03-10-2019, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by fatherom View Post
Have another question for those using dynamic tone mapping. I think what I'm seeing is related to it, and it's not a problem per se, mainly just want to see if others have seen it.

I was showing my daughter some clips from A Star is Born and Bohemian Rhapsody, and going back and forth between the movie and the main menu. Whenever I hit 'menu' on the Oppo, and right when the main menu appears, there would be about 1 second (2 seconds, tops) of flickering/flashing...almost as if the dynamic tone mapping was trying to figure out how bright things should be. I also noticed it on the MPAA rating logo screen when we watched How to Train Your Dragon.

Have others experienced this?

Thanks,

Chris

Is the menu on the Oppo HDR? I think it's SDR and the flickering could be related to changing input mode from HDR to SDR
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post #4139 of 4877 Old 03-10-2019, 11:41 AM
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Are you referring to Desat? If so, yes, I leave it on 8 also.

My query above though was what everyone else had decided on for all the other DTM parameters (shape, transition, ratio etc). I’ve currently just left those on default values.
Sorry if I was unprecise, I was talking about DTM. Always on 8.
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post #4140 of 4877 Old 03-10-2019, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by darksets View Post
Is the menu on the Oppo HDR? I think it's SDR and the flickering could be related to changing input mode from HDR to SDR
Actually, in my experience most 4K disc main menus are HDR.


Theater 1: LG OLED55E6P 4K TV, Oppo UDP-203, Apple TV 4K, Dune HD Solo 4K
Theater 2: Sony VPL-VW885ES, Elite Sable 16:9 100", Lumagen 4242, Oppo 103D (CFW) / 203, Sony MDR-DS7500 Wireless Surround Headphones & Onkyo TX-SR707
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