New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 147 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4381 of 4639 Old 04-15-2019, 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Why wouldn't this be the way everyone hooks up the lumagen?
As others have said, I'd rather have all my sources pass through the Lumagen, and be able to have different settings on a source by source basis (though I think you can probably still do that using virtual inputs), and have the Lumagen simply squirt the audio out to my processor on a separate dedicated output.
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post #4382 of 4639 Old 04-15-2019, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by darksets View Post
As for features like Sharpness Control (euphemism for edge enhancement) and Noise Reduction, I hope they never add them. You'll say you can just turn it off but I believe a product should have an identity and if your identity is great, accurate picture those features don't belong there. I would think less of Lumagen if it offers picture distorting/degrading features, especially if I have to do something to turn them off.
I would much rather Lumagen added features with the ability to turn them off, than didn't add them at all. Sharpening and edge enhancement can make an improvement in perceived image quality if used judiciously - the enhancement settings in the Panasonic blu-ray players are a good example of that, and provide a welcome increase in the percieved clarity of UHD blu-rays.

Lumagen has had picture enhancement controls of its own, and also Darby processing, for years now so this isn't something new, like a change in some sort of perceived 'purist' stance. The Radiance processors are designed to give the widest possible breadth of user/installer control and configurability, so I'm not sure how anyone could argue for a feature not to be added.

If Jim could come up with something similar to Darby processing, for 4K, I'd personally welcome it with open arms!
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post #4383 of 4639 Old 04-15-2019, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
As others have said, I'd rather have all my sources pass through the Lumagen, and be able to have different settings on a source by source basis (though I think you can probably still do that using virtual inputs), and have the Lumagen simply squirt the audio out to my processor on a separate dedicated output.
I am considering acquiring a Lumagen given all of the positive hype over Dynamic Tone Mapping.

So you send video direct to your Z1 and audio to your Trinnov? Any issues with lip sync and if so, do you fix them in the Trinnov or the Lumagen?

Also, is the upgrade to the 18GHz card critical and if so, what benefit does it provide?

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post #4384 of 4639 Old 04-15-2019, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I am considering acquiring a Lumagen given all of the positive hype over Dynamic Tone Mapping.

So you send video direct to your Z1 and audio to your Trinnov? Any issues with lip sync and if so, do you fix them in the Trinnov or the Lumagen?
Yep, I've not had a specific issue with lip sync, but both the Radiance and the Altitude have have the ability to adjust audio delay, so if the issue appears it would be easy to deal with.

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Also, is the upgrade to the 18GHz card critical and if so, what benefit does it provide?
It's not critical, no, it will just limit the maximum signal that you can use from your devices. So all 2160p/24Hz film content will be fine, it will just be 2160p/60Hz content (some streamed content, and some device menus and GUI's) that you'll have to limit to 4:2:0 8bit output.
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post #4385 of 4639 Old 04-15-2019, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
As others have said, I'd rather have all my sources pass through the Lumagen, and be able to have different settings on a source by source basis (though I think you can probably still do that using virtual inputs), and have the Lumagen simply squirt the audio out to my processor on a separate dedicated output.
That's also how I have mine hooked up - sources to the Lumagen, video straight out of the Lumagen to my RS4500. Audio only to the receiver. Any problems like audio dropouts etc. were solved by not running video at all thought the receiver. I think that caused HDMI issues. And there are some calibrators that say pre - pros / receivers do effect the video even with " pass through " set, so that question is eliminated. I should have listened to Jim and Kris and set it up like this to begin with.

So far, the new DTM looks good !!
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post #4386 of 4639 Old 04-16-2019, 03:16 AM
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Hello, everyone. I'm very interested in buying a Lumagen Radiance Pro. I have a few questions to ask.

1.Can the Radiance Pro support HDMI 2.1(48Gbps) in the future(upgradable hardware)?
2.Can the Radiance Pro support Dolby Vision, HDR10+ and HLG in the future(upgradable firmware)?
3.Does the dynamic tone mapping with latest firmware have any bugs or glitches?

I know it's a lot of money to pay, so I hope at least it should have some future proof and no severe bugs or glitches.
Thank you for all your reply.
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post #4387 of 4639 Old 04-16-2019, 03:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
That's also how I have mine hooked up - sources to the Lumagen, video straight out of the Lumagen to my RS4500. Audio only to the receiver. Any problems like audio dropouts etc. were solved by not running video at all thought the receiver. I think that caused HDMI issues. And there are some calibrators that say pre - pros / receivers do effect the video even with " pass through " set, so that question is eliminated. I should have listened to Jim and Kris and set it up like this to begin with.

So far, the new DTM looks good !!
You lose all HUD like volume changes etc right? That would be a big bummer.

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Originally Posted by Nattypol View Post
Hello, everyone. I'm very interested in buying a Lumagen Radiance Pro. I have a few questions to ask.

1.Can the Radiance Pro support HDMI 2.1(48Gbps) in the future(upgradable hardware)?
2.Can the Radiance Pro support Dolby Vision, HDR10+ and HLG in the future(upgradable firmware)?
3.Does the dynamic tone mapping with latest firmware have any bugs or glitches?

I know it's a lot of money to pay, so I hope at least it should have some future proof and no severe bugs or glitches.
Thank you for all your reply.
Dynamic tone mapping is a good replacement for HDR10+ and Dolby vision. It basically does the same thing but possibly better because HDR10+ and DV rely on the mastering engineer carefully measuring each frame where DTM always measures each frame accurately at playback. So I don't think supporting these things is necessary.
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post #4388 of 4639 Old 04-16-2019, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
You lose all HUD like volume changes etc right? That would be a big bummer.
I've run my AV system this way for a number of years: I don't find any need to see the HUD from my AVR: I have the master volume limit set up to my preferred maximum listening level, so even if I sat on the remote it wouldn't go any higher. Not having easy access to the HUD also prevents fiddling about with settings (which I usually do via my TV if making any audio adjustments). The AVR is set to correctly decode the soundtrack and apply my preferred up-mixing mode (where appropriate), which it 'remembers' on a per input basis and from the last setting.

Maybe it helps that I use a Harmony remote too, but I just don't feel any need to look at HUD when watching films.

If I need to check on the HUD then I can still do that via my TV for adjustment/set up purposes: For me TV is far less critical viewing, so I'm not bothered about any extra noise/issues caused by passing video through the AVR. For the big screen viewing, I just want the maximum quality I can achieve, so that means minimising the potential for video interference/additional conversions and associated noise or side effects.

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post #4389 of 4639 Old 04-16-2019, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
You lose all HUD like volume changes etc right? That would be a big bummer.



Dynamic tone mapping is a good replacement for HDR10+ and Dolby vision. It basically does the same thing but possibly better because HDR10+ and DV rely on the mastering engineer carefully measuring each frame where DTM always measures each frame accurately at playback. So I don't think supporting these things is necessary.
The on screen display info? True - and I admit I resisted setting it up this way because I like and am used to having the OSD info. However, in my case I re-arranged my equipment rack ( which is right behind me ) so I can see what the volume level is if need be. And if I need the OSD to change a bunch of settings in the future, that can be temporarily re-established if needed. I find I don't really need it day to day though.
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post #4390 of 4639 Old 04-16-2019, 08:30 AM
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Many control systems can show all of that info if setup properly. Really depends on the system and the programmer. SJ
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post #4391 of 4639 Old 04-16-2019, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
Many control systems can show all of that info if setup properly. Really depends on the system and the programmer. SJ
Besides, sometimes I don't want my wife to know how loud the movie really is going to get.

" Green Book " looked outstanding last night, using the latest DTM firmware. I'm pulling out some 4K HDR old favorites this week for more testing !
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post #4392 of 4639 Old 04-16-2019, 09:04 AM
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Many control systems can show all of that info if setup properly. Really depends on the system and the programmer. SJ


Me too every thing it show on my Ipad from volume to change the up-mix or to change my calibration preset if u have more than preset U can throw controller such crestron or control4


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post #4393 of 4639 Old 04-16-2019, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
You lose all HUD like volume changes etc right? That would be a big bummer.
The Lumagen API does support displaying text on screen overlay of up to a couple of lines I believe. I'm going to use this facility to add OSD overlay of AVR volume and audio mode via my Raspberry Pi integration stuff.
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post #4394 of 4639 Old 04-16-2019, 12:44 PM
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The Lumagen API does support displaying text on screen overlay of up to a couple of lines I believe. I'm going to use this facility to add OSD overlay of AVR volume and audio mode via my Raspberry Pi integration stuff.
Back in the day, Shawn Fogg used to sell a little device that could take the RS232 output of a Meridian processor (and others I believe) and feed that into a Lumagen. I used to do that between my G68 and VisionHDP. Brings back good memories!
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You lose all HUD like volume changes etc right? That would be a big bummer

I prefer my lumagen at the end of the chain so I still get all my AVR OSD. No problems for me. Syncs fine. Very happy with my setup.

I acknowledge its not the recommended way, but it can be done and works very well for me.
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post #4396 of 4639 Old 04-16-2019, 01:13 PM
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Back in the day, Shawn Fogg used to sell a little device that could take the RS232 output of a Meridian processor (and others I believe) and feed that into a Lumagen. I used to do that between my G68 and VisionHDP. Brings back good memories!
Cool, just looked that up, looked like a neat solution. I'm going to implement in the first instance for my own Arcam AVR. I've already got the HDR flag triggering different user modes in my JVC projector for SDR and HDR duties, as well as the aspect ratio flags coming out of the auto aspect detection driving my screen masks.
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post #4397 of 4639 Old 04-16-2019, 02:13 PM
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Just noticed another update appeared on the Lumagen site:

Beta 021219 " DTM improvement cleared up problem on opening of Starship Troopers UHD. Small fix to DTM lower curve. Extra bit of range added for DTM with SDR output. Removed message regarding "effective display max" when adjusting display ratio in DTM mode since there are other variables that enter into this calculation"

Haven't had chance to put the 'too bright' one (and it's subsequent update) on mine yet...I'll wait a few days to put this newest one on due to visitors.
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post #4398 of 4639 Old 04-16-2019, 02:35 PM
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I prefer my lumagen at the end of the chain so I still get all my AVR OSD. No problems for me. Syncs fine. Very happy with my setup.

I acknowledge its not the recommended way, but it can be done and works very well for me.
I have tried to run mine that way through the Anthem AVM 60 and I just run into sync issues. It seems sometimes HDMI just does whatever it wants. With me having all inputs go to the Lumagen everything syncs correctly 99.99% of the time. I can go months without a hiccup. If I route through the Anthem then I can get sync issues each time I use the system.

I think you just have to find what works for you and roll with it. I do miss the volume but if I want I can easily look at the app on my iPhone to get the current volume if needed. I also like to set and forget it when I watch a movie, set the volume and press play and enjoy. Nobody in my family or group of friends wants me messing with stuff especially when I like everyone to put their devices away and enjoy the show!
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post #4399 of 4639 Old 04-16-2019, 07:09 PM
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I would much rather Lumagen added features with the ability to turn them off, than didn't add them at all. Sharpening and edge enhancement can make an improvement in perceived image quality if used judiciously - the enhancement settings in the Panasonic blu-ray players are a good example of that, and provide a welcome increase in the percieved clarity of UHD blu-rays.

Lumagen has had picture enhancement controls of its own, and also Darby processing, for years now so this isn't something new, like a change in some sort of perceived 'purist' stance. The Radiance processors are designed to give the widest possible breadth of user/installer control and configurability, so I'm not sure how anyone could argue for a feature not to be added.

If Jim could come up with something similar to Darby processing, for 4K, I'd personally welcome it with open arms!
Ah, yes. I had forgotten about Darbee, I guess that ship has sailed already (i.e. Lumagen being a purist's device). I think it goes without saying that one of the first things I did after getting my Radiance Pro was to issue command "Menu 0860" to turn Darbee off.

As for allowing for image distorting gimmicks like edge enhancement, the problem is not so much the trouble of turning it off, as the idea that they have spent their resources implementing them and that I have paid for that.
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Originally Posted by kaotikr1 View Post
I have tried to run mine that way through the Anthem AVM 60 and I just run into sync issues. It seems sometimes HDMI just does whatever it wants. With me having all inputs go to the Lumagen everything syncs correctly 99.99% of the time. I can go months without a hiccup. If I route through the Anthem then I can get sync issues each time I use the system.
Interesting to hear of your problems running your Radiance Pro thru the AVM-60 because that is the way I have mine cabled and I have experienced zero sync issues.

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Ah, yes. I had forgotten about Darbee, I guess that ship has sailed already (i.e. Lumagen being a purist's device). I think it goes without saying that one of the first things I did after getting my Radiance Pro was to issue command "Menu 0860" to turn Darbee off.
Then, it goes without saying, that you are missing out

This Lumagen purist uses the Darbee processing in both my cinema and TV units. Would love to see a 4K version or facsimile thereof added to the Lumagen.

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post #4402 of 4639 Old 04-17-2019, 01:48 AM
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Ah, yes. I had forgotten about Darbee, I guess that ship has sailed already (i.e. Lumagen being a purist's device).
As I say, Lumagen has had image processing functions long before Darbee was implemented (it is a video processor after all), including a variety of sharpening modes (including adjustment for horizontal, vertical and diagonal edge enhancement and texture/fine detail sharpening), noise reduction (temporal, spacial and block noise reduction settings), and also intra-frame contrast enhancer called 'Adaptive Contrast'.

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As for allowing for image distorting gimmicks like edge enhancement, the problem is not so much the trouble of turning it off, as the idea that they have spent their resources implementing them and that I have paid for that.
Technically you haven't paid for it if it wasn't in the device when you bought it, or if it was a promised feature at the time of purchase, you bought the device knowing it would be added - semantics I know, but the point is still there.

You also have to take a little wider view, and realise the device is designed to suit a broad range of people, and they have differing needs and tastes. I have absolutely no interest what-so-ever in PiP, but I wouldn't for one minute suggest Lumagen don't add that feature as I appreciate many here want to see it and use it.

I do understand your 'purist' stance to an extent, but how far do you take it? Do you not own a Sony 995? A projector that has inherent and undefeatable noise reduction processing. You are also using DTM - definitely not a purist approach to displaying HDR given it is effectively an active gamma manipulation of the original content - should a hardcore purist not really be displaying 1 nit input to 1 nit output and clip everything their display cannot render? An extreme example I appreciate, but it makes the point that you cannot take a purist hard line in home projection, and even less so now we have to deal with HDR.
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As I say, Lumagen has had image processing functions long before Darbee was implemented (it is a video processor after all), including a variety of sharpening modes (including adjustment for horizontal, vertical and diagonal edge enhancement and texture/fine detail sharpening), noise reduction (temporal, spacial and block noise reduction settings), and also intra-frame contrast enhancer called 'Adaptive Contrast'.
Yes; but if I'm right, all these functions were done by HW in the Gennum VXP.
I'm looking forward to get those implemented in the FPGA beast ...
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post

I do understand your 'purist' stance to an extent, but how far do you take it? Do you not own a Sony 995? A projector that has inherent and undefeatable noise reduction processing. You are also using DTM - definitely not a purist approach to displaying HDR given it is effectively an active gamma manipulation of the original content - should a hardcore purist not really be displaying 1 nit input to 1 nit output and clip everything their display cannot render? An extreme example I appreciate, but it makes the point that you cannot take a purist hard line in home projection, and even less so now we have to deal with HDR.
I didn't say I wouldn't buy a Lumagen because it has some features I don't like. The overall package is very compelling. That doesn't mean I'm happy paying for those features and, more importantly, that they are spending their resources implementing them instead of something useful.

Your argument about HDR is just silly. There is no projector capable of properly displaying HDR, as opposed to just displaying a picture without distorting it with edge enhancement. Applying DTM is actually more accurate than clipping information that the display cannot produce.
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For a few like myself who happen to have a Panny 9000 player and the Radiance, it opens up some options for experimentation with tone mapping. I'm wondering if any here has had checked out using Panasonic's HDR Optomiser in conjunction with DTM on the Radiance? I haven't had a chance yet as such, I've just been experimenting with DTM on it's own. I know in other combinations such as the NX9 projector and the 9000, guys like Kris D are liking the way the HDR optimiser works with the NX9's ATM function. I might have a play with it on the weekend on my 4500.
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Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post
Just noticed another update appeared on the Lumagen site:



Beta 021219 " DTM improvement cleared up problem on opening of Starship Troopers UHD. Small fix to DTM lower curve. Extra bit of range added for DTM with SDR output. Removed message regarding "effective display max" when adjusting display ratio in DTM mode since there are other variables that enter into this calculation"



Haven't had chance to put the 'too bright' one (and it's subsequent update) on mine yet...I'll wait a few days to put this newest one on due to visitors.


any good feedback about this FW and is there are something else to setup


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post #4407 of 4639 Old 04-18-2019, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by A7mad78 View Post
any good feedback about this FW and is there are something else to setup


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I loaded it last night, and it looks good. It resolved the two issues I've seen where highlights have been blown out, and subjectively mid-tones look a bit better balanced (could just be my mind playing tricks on me there though).

I'm still having an issue with highlights being blown out on some HDR games - but given that they go up to 10,000nits, it might just be that there simply isn't enough brightness range on the projector to show them properly without compressing the nit-for-nit range too much.
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post #4408 of 4639 Old 04-18-2019, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I loaded it last night, and it looks good. It resolved the two issues I've seen where highlights have been blown out, and subjectively mid-tones look a bit better balanced (could just be my mind playing tricks on me there though).



I'm still having an issue with highlights being blown out on some HDR games - but given that they go up to 10,000nits, it might just be that there simply isn't enough brightness range on the projector to show them properly without compressing the nit-for-nit range too much.


I will try to loud it today last one was so good compare to IM I keep them on level 8


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post #4409 of 4639 Old 04-18-2019, 10:59 AM
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I just loaded the new firmware. I have 4K HDR movie nights planned for Sat. / Sunday / Monday and Tuesday, so it will get a good testing out.
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post #4410 of 4639 Old 04-18-2019, 12:52 PM
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Very happy with how the DTM is coming along. Ive been doing a rewatch of the Marvel movies before endgame, and Ive got to say that GOTG vol 2, Avengers 1 and Ultron all look spectacular. Best its ever looked in my theater. Excellent job!
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