New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 148 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4411 of 4853 Old 04-19-2019, 04:20 PM
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every time i set the Dynamic HDR level to 8 and SAVE IT it come back to 5 after Shutdown my system it’s never save I run the latest FW


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post #4412 of 4853 Old 04-21-2019, 03:02 AM
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every time i set the Dynamic HDR level to 8 and SAVE IT it come back to 5 after Shutdown my system it’s never save I run the latest FW


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Do you save in the general menu for saving the configuration or the left arrow tone mapping menu? The latter does not survive a shutdown.
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post #4413 of 4853 Old 04-21-2019, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Dynamic tone mapping is a good replacement for HDR10+ and Dolby vision. It basically does the same thing but possibly better because HDR10+ and DV rely on the mastering engineer carefully measuring each frame where DTM always measures each frame accurately at playback. So I don't think supporting these things is necessary.
Not really the same thing. For one, none of these solutions really do "frame by frame" for TONE MAPPING. They do scene by scene. It would be way too time and processing intensive to actually do frame by frame tone mapping and typically scenes don't vary enough to justify a new tone map for every frame. It also raises the chances of seeing artifacts like pumping. I've talked to people involved with Dolby's mastering process and they say the same thing.

What Dolby and HDR10+ do that DTM does NOT do is provide the frame metadata to the display. That doesn't matter with DTM if you are talking about tone mapping specifically, but that is only part of the equation. That frame data (if present and accurate) provides useful information for flat panels that rely on contrast manipulation, like dynamic dimming or zone based dimming. Without that data the display has to guess on the fly, which leads to common issues like pumping or gamma issues. If they have the information for the frame, they know EXACTLY where they should be APL wise, so it is a huge benefit to maximize range and minimize artifacts. This is the main reason that Samsung wanted HDR10+, the bulk of their displays were edge lit and benefit GREATLY from the information. Far more than actual tone mapping information since they are bright enough that more often than not they are simply nit for nit. With PQ and flat panels, issues with tone mapping should be extremely rare. Older sets that relied on static metadata had more issues than recent ones because they would actually use the wrong data.

Projectors with dynamic contrast adjustments (nearly all of them) could also benefit a lot from frame by frame information like what DV provides for their systems too. I discussed this with JVC engineers the year they premiered the RS4500 at CEDIA. They acknowledged it as well and said they have been pressing to work with Dolby, but so far it hadn't gotten anywhere.
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post #4414 of 4853 Old 04-21-2019, 08:56 AM
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Do you save in the general menu for saving the configuration or the left arrow tone mapping menu? The latter does not survive a shutdown.


From the hdr menu i go to DTM and change the value from 5 to 8 and press OK until it show in the display it save but in the next time To run the lumagen it return back to 5


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post #4415 of 4853 Old 04-21-2019, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by A7mad78 View Post
From the hdr menu i go to DTM and change the value from 5 to 8 and press OK until it show in the display it save but in the next time To run the lumagen it return back to 5


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You need to save the configuration after changing any settings for them to survive a reboot.
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post #4416 of 4853 Old 04-21-2019, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post
Do you save in the general menu for saving the configuration or the left arrow tone mapping menu? The latter does not survive a shutdown.


From the hdr menu i go to DTM and change the value from 5 to 8 and press OK until it show in the display it save but in the next time To run the lumagen it return back to 5


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Any changes to the Lumagen settings are wiped when you shut off power unless you do a full save in the main menu.
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post #4417 of 4853 Old 04-21-2019, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Any changes to the Lumagen settings are wiped when you shut off power unless you do a full save in the main menu.


Thx Kris how can I save in the main menu pls after i setup the DTM to 8


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post #4418 of 4853 Old 04-21-2019, 02:17 PM
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New to the lumagen trying to get the 4096 x to take in the output settings with the dcr lens and RS4500 JVC projector there are mult choices in their and none of them seem to do anything,
when i try to hit "ok" to save on any of them nothing happens, which one is the correct one to use.

Was able to turn on the HDR tone mapping and save that, but the output settings no so much,
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One other thing, how do load firmware upgrades on the lumagen since it has no cat 5 internet connection
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Firmware updates are sent from pc to Lumagen through usb.


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Originally Posted by SSnarski View Post
One other thing, how do load firmware upgrades on the lumagen since it has no cat 5 internet connection
http://lumagen.com/docs/Tip0006_Upda...are_012016.pdf

http://lumagen.com/testindex.php?mod...ncepro_updates
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Thank you very much, Just an update put all the recommended settings Craig Peer Sent over that Kris Deering shared, finally got the Lumagen set up with full resolution to utilize the Panamorph DCR - the lens/Lumagen/and RS4500 are all working together, thought something was wrong when Aquaman 4k uhd kept changing the ratio but it was the movie not everything else, I keep dialing little things in and it seems to be Quite Pleasing even with a 150 Diagonal 240 scope screen,
I put everything in using settings for Mid Laser, but still might fiddle with some settings to use the high laser and its full potential, Just trying to get everything functioning before Chad B comes out to do a final calibration

I did put the Panasonic 9000 in the mix and put the HDR optimizer on, did not see the choices in there for 350/500 nits in the menu, i will have to dive into that a little deeper, just did not have much time today to work on it, just got back from Vacation and back to work tomorrow. There are just quite a few adjustments and recommendations for all the new added equipment.
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post #4423 of 4853 Old 04-21-2019, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSnarski View Post
Thank you very much, Just an update put all the recommended settings Craig Peer Sent over that Kris Deering shared, finally got the Lumagen set up with full resolution to utilize the Panamorph DCR - the lens/Lumagen/and RS4500 are all working together, thought something was wrong when Aquaman 4k uhd kept changing the ratio but it was the movie not everything else, I keep dialing little things in and it seems to be Quite Pleasing even with a 150 Diagonal 240 scope screen,
I put everything in using settings for Mid Laser, but still might fiddle with some settings to use the high laser and its full potential, Just trying to get everything functioning before Chad B comes out to do a final calibration

I did put the Panasonic 9000 in the mix and put the HDR optimizer on, did not see the choices in there for 350/500 nits in the menu, i will have to dive into that a little deeper, just did not have much time today to work on it, just got back from Vacation and back to work tomorrow. There are just quite a few adjustments and recommendations for all the new added equipment.

The projector settings you're looking for are in the home menu's setup menu, you won't have access to them while playing content.I've been meaning to do some 9000/Lumagen DTM experimenting but I've been tied up across the whole Easter weekend unfortunately.
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post #4424 of 4853 Old 04-22-2019, 12:40 AM
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To save from main menu


MENU>SAVE>SAVE OK



OR



MENU> up arrow, ok, ok, ok

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post #4425 of 4853 Old 04-22-2019, 12:45 AM
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To save from main menu


MENU>SAVE>SAVE OK



OR



MENU> up arrow, ok, ok, ok


Got it

Thx mate


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post #4426 of 4853 Old 04-22-2019, 01:31 AM
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Not really the same thing. For one, none of these solutions really do "frame by frame" for TONE MAPPING. They do scene by scene. It would be way too time and processing intensive to actually do frame by frame tone mapping and typically scenes don't vary enough to justify a new tone map for every frame. It also raises the chances of seeing artifacts like pumping. I've talked to people involved with Dolby's mastering process and they say the same thing.
FYI, madVR sort of does "frame by frame" in a sense. It works off scenes like you say, but then it takes the max tone mapping value in the scene by analyzing frames and slowly changes it within the scene. I only bring up madVR in this thread because you say "none of these solutions..." otherwise I'd not be talking about it in here. My guess is as Lumagen DTM matures further, it may adopt similar behavior.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
FYI, madVR sort of does "frame by frame" in a sense. It works off scenes like you say, but then it takes the max tone mapping value in the scene by analyzing frames and slowly changes it within the scene. I only bring up madVR in this thread because you say "none of these solutions..." otherwise I'd not be talking about it in here. My guess is as Lumagen DTM matures further, it may adopt similar behavior.
Lumagen DTM works in exactly the same basic way as MadVR to the extent that it buffers frames and analyses each individual frames luminance properties to determine the tone mapping gamma curve to be applied. The only way MadVR and Lumagen DTM are likely to differ are:

a) the data they choose to use from the analysis of the individual frames (e.g. overall ADL, percentage of pixels above a certain luminance threshold etc)
b) the decisions they choose to make based on that data (e.g. when, how and where they decide to manipulate the gamma curve)
c) possibly the number of frames to be buffered (though I suspect they’ll both have have similar tolerances for latency)

I suspect if you were to compare both side by side now, you would be hard pushed to tell the results apart, and once both have fully matured they will likely be indistinguishable - they are after all seeking identical goals on the identical source material.
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post #4428 of 4853 Old 04-22-2019, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSnarski View Post
Thank you very much, Just an update put all the recommended settings Craig Peer Sent over that Kris Deering shared, finally got the Lumagen set up with full resolution to utilize the Panamorph DCR - the lens/Lumagen/and RS4500 are all working together, thought something was wrong when Aquaman 4k uhd kept changing the ratio but it was the movie not everything else, I keep dialing little things in and it seems to be Quite Pleasing even with a 150 Diagonal 240 scope screen,
I put everything in using settings for Mid Laser, but still might fiddle with some settings to use the high laser and its full potential, Just trying to get everything functioning before Chad B comes out to do a final calibration

I did put the Panasonic 9000 in the mix and put the HDR optimizer on, did not see the choices in there for 350/500 nits in the menu, i will have to dive into that a little deeper, just did not have much time today to work on it, just got back from Vacation and back to work tomorrow. There are just quite a few adjustments and recommendations for all the new added equipment.
Note, the Aquaman 4K uhd uses multiple aspect ratios during the movie... The "imax native" scenes are 1.78:1, where the rest of the scenes are 2.39:1.
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post #4429 of 4853 Old 04-22-2019, 12:03 PM
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Note, the Aquaman 4K uhd uses multiple aspect ratios during the movie... The "imax native" scenes are 1.78:1, where the rest of the scenes are 2.39:1.

I was thinking with the DCR Lens and Lumagen set up you would not notice the changes during the viewing of the movie - may have something to do with the set up in the Panasonic 9000 - output - i will have to pull up the menu and see what is being output - i have not done this yet - only turned on the HDR optimizer in the quick set up button, i had the oppo 203 in the mix in my audio cabinets and it was all set up for output for dolby vision for a LG 77" OLED prior to the HT addition - I just got everything else up and running last night when i got back from Vacation, have not had the time to really start really getting into everything -



Has anyone else noticed screen size changes with the DCR/ Lumagen on any mult. aspect ratio movie watching?
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Has anyone else noticed screen size changes with the DCR/ Lumagen on any mult. aspect ratio movie watching?
I don't have a DCR lens but do use auto aspect a lot. The feature works brilliantly within what it is designed for, which is to switch correctly for a whole movie. If you're thinking of using auto aspect with multi aspect movies I really wouldn't. The aspect changes aren't instantaneous. There are two notable delays; one is the period during which it detects the aspect (which can vary depending on the scene and how obvious the bars are in the content) and the other is what I think amounts to a single frame pause as the aspect actually changes. Both of those would spoil a movie for me if in content, but are absolutely fine as a movie starts up in the credits or intro sequence (in fact, the masks moving in my setup add to the cinematic feel).

I would just have a memory set which turned off auto aspect for those kind of films.
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I don't have a DCR lens but do use auto aspect a lot. The feature works brilliantly within what it is designed for, which is to switch correctly for a whole movie. If you're thinking of using auto aspect with multi aspect movies I really wouldn't. The aspect changes aren't instantaneous. There are two notable delays; one is the period during which it detects the aspect (which can vary depending on the scene and how obvious the bars are in the content) and the other is what I think amounts to a single frame pause as the aspect actually changes. Both of those would spoil a movie for me if in content, but are absolutely fine as a movie starts up in the credits or intro sequence (in fact, the masks moving in my setup add to the cinematic feel).

I would just have a memory set which turned off auto aspect for those kind of films.

Bobof -

Is this some setting in the Lumagen or the Projector - I am pretty new to all this so i have a lot to learn - when watching on my OLED it would just fill the entire screen when watching multi apsect movies kind of gave you a bigger picture since you no longer had black bars at the top and bottom - with the projector it kind of did the opposite - it shrunk the picture or added black bars to the top and bottom.
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Originally Posted by SSnarski View Post
Bobof -

Is this some setting in the Lumagen or the Projector - I am pretty new to all this so i have a lot to learn - when watching on my OLED it would just fill the entire screen when watching multi apsect movies kind of gave you a bigger picture since you no longer had black bars at the top and bottom - with the projector it kind of did the opposite - it shrunk the picture or added black bars to the top and bottom.
It will be settings related, though I can't quite understand from how you would have had it set up. For it to have been seamless with no bars you'd have had to have been zoomed into just the centre of the image, or using non-linear stretch I believe, both of which would be pretty horrid. Or alternatively viewing another version of the movie that didn't have the aspect ratio changes in it somehow?

I tend to try and avoid any non-original scaling or framing of movies if possible so I'm not sure what best to advise as my advice would usually be... don't!
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post #4433 of 4853 Old 04-22-2019, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSnarski View Post
New to the lumagen trying to get the 4096 x to take in the output settings with the dcr lens and RS4500 JVC projector there are mult choices in their and none of them seem to do anything,
when i try to hit "ok" to save on any of them nothing happens, which one is the correct one to use.

Was able to turn on the HDR tone mapping and save that, but the output settings no so much,
You can use the menu to change the output to 4096 by 2160, but it is more complicated if you want to support 24, 25, 50 and 60 Hertz output. I have done this successfully, but there is a "direct code" shortcut since this is a common setup. To output 4096x2160 at 4k24, 4k25, 4k50 or 4k60 press, as appropriate, enter MENU 0877 and then do a Save (MENU up-arrow OK OK OK).

For the Paladin DCR lens with 4096x2160 output mode the resulting aspect ratio is 2.37. What I usually recommend is you can set the MENU->Output->Styles->Style0->Aspect->Single Aspect to 2.37. Then I suggest zooming in so both 2.35 movies (selected by pressing 2.35), and 2.40 movies (selected by pressing ALT 2.35) fill the screen. Then use the Pro "Mask" (Style0->Mask/Shrink/Mask) to adjust over-scan. I prefer loosing a few pixels and not having black bars for either of these source aspect ratios. You can of course choose a different compromise.

There is a manual on line and toward the back is a "Direct Codes" section with codes we have added for common cases. It is on the support/manuals page. I am actually working on an update that includes information on Dynamic Tone Mapping.

=====

For updating, you need to use a PC (or virtual PC on a MAC) along with the supplied USB cable. On our Support/Updates/Radiance Pro page download the latest. There is no need to load in-between updates. Also, there is a Tech Tip that comes with each release that describes how to do the update.
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post #4434 of 4853 Old 04-22-2019, 10:25 PM
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We appreciate all the positive feedback we have received on Dynamic Tone Mapping.

Thanks to everyone who provided scenes for us to optimize for Dynamic Tone Mapping. With the current release (021219) we think we have addressed all the scenes reported to us. Dynamic Tone Mapping can't be perfect for every scene but if people report scenes that aren't as good as they can be, we can work on improving them. So please keep sending us scenes to work on if you find such scenes and are so inclined.

Patrick is working on a few additional improvements, and is also implementing HLG Dynamic Tone Mapping. Turns out we had a bug that made HLG too bright that will be corrected in the next release as well. I hope these improvements are in a release this week.

We will continue looking into another changes for Dynamic Tone Mapping, along with specific scenes reported to us.

===

I am always asked what's next on the list? At the moment I am debating on continuing the work on pipeline precision (e.g. 12 bit or more through the entire pipeline), or adding PiP/PoP (444X only). These are both significant efforts for us and I have yet to decide on which will be next. Whichever we choose, we will, as always, keep bug fixes as our top priority. So keep sending us feedback if you have issues to report or feature tweaks for us to consider.

===

As I mentioned in my previous post I am working on an update to the Radiance Pro manual that includes Dynamic Tone Mapping. I hope to have something to put on the website mid-May.
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post #4435 of 4853 Old 04-23-2019, 02:44 AM
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Thx Jim for updating us and I think the pipline is batter to be the next to close the chapter of pic improvement then the last for the owners of 444 to add pip and so to be the final cherry on the top of cake



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post #4436 of 4853 Old 04-23-2019, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp;57940912.

===

I am always asked what's next on the list? At the moment I am debating on continuing the work on pipeline precision (e.g. 12 bit or more through the entire pipeline), or adding PiP/PoP (444X only). These are both significant efforts for us and I have yet to decide on which will be next. Whichever we choose, we will, as always, keep bug fixes as our top priority. So keep sending us feedback if you have issues to report or feature tweaks for us to consider.
I personally favour the 12 bit pipeline (as probably all 42xx owners) but I really hope you will implement sharpness and noise reduction sometime soon after all these years of waiting....
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post #4437 of 4853 Old 04-23-2019, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jrp View Post
You can use the menu to change the output to 4096 by 2160, but it is more complicated if you want to support 24, 25, 50 and 60 Hertz output. I have done this successfully, but there is a "direct code" shortcut since this is a common setup. To output 4096x2160 at 4k24, 4k25, 4k50 or 4k60 press, as appropriate, enter MENU 0877 and then do a Save (MENU up-arrow OK OK OK).

For the Paladin DCR lens with 4096x2160 output mode the resulting aspect ratio is 2.37. What I usually recommend is you can set the MENU->Output->Styles->Style0->Aspect->Single Aspect to 2.37. Then I suggest zooming in so both 2.35 movies (selected by pressing 2.35), and 2.40 movies (selected by pressing ALT 2.35) fill the screen. Then use the Pro "Mask" (Style0->Mask/Shrink/Mask) to adjust over-scan. I prefer loosing a few pixels and not having black bars for either of these source aspect ratios. You can of course choose a different compromise.

There is a manual on line and toward the back is a "Direct Codes" section with codes we have added for common cases. It is on the support/manuals page. I am actually working on an update that includes information on Dynamic Tone Mapping.

=====

For updating, you need to use a PC (or virtual PC on a MAC) along with the supplied USB cable. On our Support/Updates/Radiance Pro page download the latest. There is no need to load in-between updates. Also, there is a Tech Tip that comes with each release that describes how to do the update.



I had the output at 4096 x 2160 60 hz - in conversation with Craig Peer i changed that to 24 hz, spent a little time last night tweaking things - i printed out your suggestions and will have to find the time to keep working on things, i did complete the latest update last night on the Lumagen, Still have to play with the Panasonic 9000 - i put that on High LUM projector in the menu - for some reason the Panasonic 9000 auto chose LCD as it's choice for the RS4500, prior to this i had it hooked up to my OLED when i first received the P 9000 - it chose correctly (OLED) as its choice when it was hooked up that way. IMO it almost looked better playing in the LCD mode rather than projector mode.



Note: I did notice after the lastest update with the Lumagen - the LIP Sync is now a split second off - was not like this prior to the update.
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post #4438 of 4853 Old 04-23-2019, 06:04 AM
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We appreciate all the positive feedback we have received on Dynamic Tone Mapping.

Thanks to everyone who provided scenes for us to optimize for Dynamic Tone Mapping. With the current release (021219) we think we have addressed all the scenes reported to us. Dynamic Tone Mapping can't be perfect for every scene but if people report scenes that aren't as good as they can be, we can work on improving them. So please keep sending us scenes to work on if you find such scenes and are so inclined.

Patrick is working on a few additional improvements, and is also implementing HLG Dynamic Tone Mapping. Turns out we had a bug that made HLG too bright that will be corrected in the next release as well. I hope these improvements are in a release this week.

We will continue looking into another changes for Dynamic Tone Mapping, along with specific scenes reported to us.

===

I am always asked what's next on the list? At the moment I am debating on continuing the work on pipeline precision (e.g. 12 bit or more through the entire pipeline), or adding PiP/PoP (444X only). These are both significant efforts for us and I have yet to decide on which will be next. Whichever we choose, we will, as always, keep bug fixes as our top priority. So keep sending us feedback if you have issues to report or feature tweaks for us to consider.

===

As I mentioned in my previous post I am working on an update to the Radiance Pro manual that includes Dynamic Tone Mapping. I hope to have something to put on the website mid-May.
I'm not sure what the full list of possible work is, but I would prioritize:
- manual updated for DTM
- PIP/POP
- 12 bit

HT: Oppo UDP-203 -> Lumagen RadiancePro 4446 {18 GHz input x2 & 18 GHz output x1 cards} - "new (112818 FW)" 18 GHz microcode - parallel outs to --> [Audio: Denon 5308CI] --> [Video: JVC RS520 FW v30.1]
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post #4439 of 4853 Old 04-23-2019, 06:23 AM
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I think i will need to verify which firmware updated the projector has as well, that is one thing that i have not checked yet.
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post #4440 of 4853 Old 04-23-2019, 06:25 AM
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===

I am always asked what's next on the list? At the moment I am debating on continuing the work on pipeline precision (e.g. 12 bit or more through the entire pipeline), or adding PiP/PoP (444X only). These are both significant efforts for us and I have yet to decide on which will be next. Whichever we choose, we will, as always, keep bug fixes as our top priority. So keep sending us feedback if you have issues to report or feature tweaks for us to consider.

===
Jim, is the 256 point 1D LUT part of that proposed 12 bit pipeline work, or a separate area of firmware development? if the latter, is it still on the 'list'?
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