New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 149 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4441 of 5360 Old 04-23-2019, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSnarski View Post
I had the output at 4096 x 2160 60 hz - in conversation with Craig Peer i changed that to 24 hz, spent a little time last night tweaking things - i printed out your suggestions and will have to find the time to keep working on things, i did complete the latest update last night on the Lumagen, Still have to play with the Panasonic 9000 - i put that on High LUM projector in the menu - for some reason the Panasonic 9000 auto chose LCD as it's choice for the RS4500, prior to this i had it hooked up to my OLED when i first received the P 9000 - it chose correctly (OLED) as its choice when it was hooked up that way. IMO it almost looked better playing in the LCD mode rather than projector mode.
I suspect the 'High Lumen Projector'/OLED/LCD settings relate to the Panny 9000 performing some sort of tone mapping internally. You want to try and turn that all off and send the unmolested HDR to your Radiance Pro to allow the Lumagen DTM to do its work.
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post #4442 of 5360 Old 04-23-2019, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I suspect the 'High Lumen Projector'/OLED/LCD settings relate to the Panny 9000 performing some sort of tone mapping internally. You want to try and turn that all off and send the unmolested HDR to your Radiance Pro to allow the Lumagen DTM to do its work.



I do not believe there is a way to turn off what you are displaying to - High/Low Projector, OLED, LCD, etc. in initial set up you have to choose something or the unit does that itself automatically - You do however have the ability to directly turn off the HDR Tone Mapping, if you hold down the quick HDR button it will go into advanced HDR mode to make changes

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post #4443 of 5360 Old 04-23-2019, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post
I'm not sure what the full list of possible work is, but I would prioritize:
- manual updated for DTM
- PIP/POP
- 12 bit
Agree!

Specifically purchased my 444x for PIP/POP.....
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post #4444 of 5360 Old 04-23-2019, 07:19 AM
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PIP/POP and AVR GUIs

Quote:
Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
Agree!

Specifically purchased my 444x for PIP/POP.....
I didn't use PIP/POP that much when I had the XE but I will likely try to use it more now.
In the past I couldn't look at onscreen menu for my old Denon 5308CI AVR, but would love if that is possible now with PIP/POP.
I think there is a HDMI feedback issue that is difficult. In the past this was resolvable with a component out from AVR into Lumagen XE I think.

HT: Oppo UDP-203 -> Lumagen RadiancePro 4446 {18 GHz input x2 & 18 GHz output x1 cards} - "new (112818 FW)" 18 GHz microcode - parallel outs to --> [Audio: Denon 5308CI] --> [Video: JVC RS520 FW v30.1]
HT Details: link
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post #4445 of 5360 Old 04-23-2019, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
Agree!



Specifically purchased my 444x for PIP/POP.....
I too specifically went with my 444x for the PIP/POP promise so would definately vote for that!

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post #4446 of 5360 Old 04-23-2019, 01:57 PM
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Thanks for the feedback on which feature to implement next. A real tight race between PiP and pipeline improvements. We plan to do an "edge enhancement" feature and it is high on the list, but after the pipeline improvements to avoid working on it both before and after the pipeline improvements.

I do not use PiP/PoP, and do not like "edge enhancement." On the other hand, I have taken to leaving Darbee on for 1080 and lower sources, but at a low setting of around 25 where it does not seem to create artifacts but does give a bit of enhancement due to its "local contrast improvement." I mention this as my personal interest is mostly in the pipeline improvement even though the pipeline precision is already very good.

Having said that and after considering feedback, I think we will work in the following order:
1) Initial "Basic PiP" (no PoP)
2) Pipeline enhancements
3) Initial "Basic PoP"
4) Some form of edge enhancement
5) Additional PiP/PoP improvement

It may be that 1 and 3 are best done at the same time.

I think this gets people with 444X units the most important PiP feature of using pip to see their audio processor OSD.

NOTE: As a reminder for those wanting PiP/PoP for their 444X unit: Only one input on each 18 GHz input board can be active at any one time and so you cannot do PiP/PoP using both inputs on a single 18 GHz input card. Input boards have two inputs. So input 1&2, etc., share a board. This limitation does not apply to 9 GHz input cards since each input has its own input chip.

NOTE: There will be only a single tone mapping circuit for the main window. The PiP Window will not have any video enhancements or controls (or only very minimal control) and is expected to be a SDR source.
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post #4447 of 5360 Old 04-23-2019, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jrp View Post
NOTE: There will be only a single tone mapping circuit for the main window. The PiP Window will not have any video enhancements or controls (or only very minimal control) and is expected to be a SDR source.
One question on that last point - Will the EDID for the PiP Window source disable the "HDR Allowed" attribute such that HDR-capable devices will still work with it by only sending SDR signals in that configuration?
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post #4448 of 5360 Old 04-23-2019, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSnarski View Post
I do not believe there is a way to turn off what you are displaying to - High/Low Projector, OLED, LCD, etc. in initial set up you have to choose something or the unit does that itself automatically - You do however have the ability to directly turn off the HDR Tone Mapping, if you hold down the quick HDR button it will go into advanced HDR mode to make changes
I believe as long as you have the HDR optimizer turned off, it will ignore whatever display type you select

JVC RS2000
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Klipsch Ref series 7.2.4 setup
Oppo 203 //Xbox one X // Apple 4k TV
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post #4449 of 5360 Old 04-23-2019, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesmil View Post
One question on that last point - Will the EDID for the PiP Window source disable the "HDR Allowed" attribute such that HDR-capable devices will still work with it by only sending SDR signals in that configuration?
Even though I said the PiP source is expected to be SDR, I really hope we can support some basic HDR source processing. I just did not (and still do not) want to commit to it until we know it will fit in the FPGA.

I think it likely that we will allow the PiP source to be HDR and that we will be able to do a "simplified" conversion to the output format based on the Display Max Light setting. Note that depending on the output format this might be HDR to SDR or SDR to HDR.

As an example, we might use a "1D LUT" like a lot of projectors do for their "Tone Mapping" since it is small. Even though this is mathematically incorrect it does an okay job (near the gray vector) and might be acceptable for the PiP Window. We would also need a color space converter since the PiP source's color format may be different than the output color format. So there is going to be some hardware needed, but as I mentioned there may not be any user controls visible for the PiP source (or maybe there will be. Just don't know yet)

If the conversion above is not going to fit the user already can select an EDID that says "No HDR" for the PiP input for a specific memory to be used when the source is going to the PiP window. We could of course make this automatic and would consider that as well.

There is also a small chance we say that the main window and the PiP window must be the same dynamic range and color format which saves the color space conversion and the "basic tone mapping" and so is easiest to fit in the FPGA. This may not be as bad as it sounds. For example PoP is likely for two sports games and so they can likely be the same format. Or it might be for two game consoles and then both can be put in the same output format. Or your audio processor OSD might look a little to bright or colorful if the output format does not match. Don't worry too much on this one. I think we will have room for the basic tone map and color format change, but not committing to it.
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post #4450 of 5360 Old 04-24-2019, 12:49 AM
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Lumagen Demo Theater

I know this is a bit off topic, but thought i would mention we have finished the "Lumagen Demo Theater" in a custom built 19 feet wide by 21 feet long (plus a two foot deep false wall for equipment and speakers) by 12 feet high room. There is still some fine tuning of sound to do, and a few other tweaks, but it is very nice already. Here are some of the fun facts:

Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446 (okay, no surprise here)
JVC RS4500
Stewart Filmscreen Studiotek 130, 168 inch diagonal (155 inch wide), 2.40 fixed screen
Trinnov Altitude 16 in a 9.2.6 configuration
Two Trinnov Amplitude8, eight channel power amplifiers
MiniDSP (to control Sub Woofers) that has not been implemented yet
Revel C208 center channel speaker
Revel F206 for Left and Right speakers
Revel W383 for the 12 surround speakers
Two Hsu Research VTF-15H MK2 Subwoofers
Custom built (by me) enclosures for the surrounds so they point in the correct ATMOS direction
Kaleidescape Strato
Oppo 203 (modified for reduced output jitter and reduced EMI by CineMike in Germany)
Panasonic UB900
Roku Ultra
AppleTV 4k (yet to be installed)
DirecTV
Chairs by Row One (two rows of five with back row on 8 inch riser)
URC control system
Dedicated 30 Amp 240 VAC and 20 Amp 120 VAC circuits for equipment
4 inch thick acoustic panels by Acoustimac
Understated LOTR theme courtesy of my wife

I want to especially thank JVC, Revel, Stewart Filmscreen, and Trinnov for their assistance in helping make our Demo Theater a most excellent place to watch movies and do training. Also thanks to Floyd Toole for his excellent book on acoustics.

I had Craig Rounds (video calibration), Curt Hoyt (audio calibration of the Trinnov), and Kris Deering (video calibration and audio consulting), over for a fun filled weekend to christen the theater and help me get it tuned up. John Schuermann of The Screening Room also attended and gave us his reviewer's view of the theater.

I don't want to hijack this thread so please email me at our Lumagen support email if you would like additional details. Of course, if your questions are appropriate for this thread (e.g. Radiance Pro setup for the RS4500) I think it is fine to ask questions here.

Jim Peterson
Lumagen

Last edited by jrp; 04-24-2019 at 12:55 AM.
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post #4451 of 5360 Old 04-24-2019, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
I know this is a bit off topic, but thought i would mention we have finished the "Lumagen Demo Theater" . . .
Superb Jim, congrats on getting it all over the line - certainly a reference grade system! It'd be good to see some pics of it all (either in this thread or another dedicated thread).

Given I also own the RS4500 I'd be interested to hear what settings you've settled on in your Radiance, and also what peak nits you are running HDR at? Also, have you chosen to output BT2020 to your RS4500, or chosen to covert to P3?
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post #4452 of 5360 Old 04-24-2019, 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jrp View Post
I know this is a bit off topic, but thought i would mention we have finished the "Lumagen Demo Theater" in a custom built 19 feet wide by 21 feet long (plus a two foot deep false wall for equipment and speakers) by 12 feet high room. There is still some fine tuning of sound to do, and a few other tweaks, but it is very nice already. Here are some of the fun facts:



Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446 (okay, no surprise here)

JVC RS4500

Stewart Filmscreen Studiotek 130, 168 inch diagonal (155 inch wide), 2.40 fixed screen

Trinnov Altitude 16 in a 9.2.6 configuration

Two Trinnov Amplitude8, eight channel power amplifiers

MiniDSP (to control Sub Woofers) that has not been implemented yet

Revel C208 center channel speaker

Revel F206 for Left and Right speakers

Revel W383 for the 12 surround speakers

Two Hsu Research VTF-15H MK2 Subwoofers

Custom built (by me) enclosures for the surrounds so they point in the correct ATMOS direction

Kaleidescape Strato

Oppo 203 (modified for reduced output jitter and reduced EMI by CineMike in Germany)

Panasonic UB900

Roku Ultra

AppleTV 4k (yet to be installed)

DirecTV

Chairs by Row One (two rows of five with back row on 8 inch riser)

URC control system

Dedicated 30 Amp 240 VAC and 20 Amp 120 VAC circuits for equipment

4 inch thick acoustic panels by Acoustimac

Understated LOTR theme courtesy of my wife



I want to especially thank JVC, Revel, Stewart Filmscreen, and Trinnov for their assistance in helping make our Demo Theater a most excellent place to watch movies and do training. Also thanks to Floyd Toole for his excellent book on acoustics.



I had Craig Rounds (video calibration), Curt Hoyt (audio calibration of the Trinnov), and Kris Deering (video calibration and audio consulting), over for a fun filled weekend to christen the theater and help me get it tuned up. John Schuermann of The Screening Room also attended and gave us his reviewer's view of the theater.



I don't want to hijack this thread so please email me at our Lumagen support email if you would like additional details. Of course, if your questions are appropriate for this thread (e.g. Radiance Pro setup for the RS4500) I think it is fine to ask questions here.


Love to see the theme


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post #4453 of 5360 Old 04-24-2019, 03:33 AM
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Pictures please!!!
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post #4454 of 5360 Old 04-24-2019, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by jbrinegar View Post
I believe as long as you have the HDR optimizer turned off, it will ignore whatever display type you select
Where/how do you select the display type?

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Where/how do you select the display type?

Its under the setup menu-->HDMI-->advanced settings if memory serves.

However, Im assuming since you have the lumagen doing the dynamic tone mapping so youll have the ub820s hdr optimzer off so display type shouldnt matter

JVC RS2000
Anthem mrx1120//Lumagen Radiance Pro
Klipsch Ref series 7.2.4 setup
Oppo 203 //Xbox one X // Apple 4k TV
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post #4456 of 5360 Old 04-24-2019, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrinegar View Post
Its under the setup menu-->HDMI-->advanced settings if memory serves.

However, Im assuming since you have the lumagen doing the dynamic tone mapping so youll have the ub820s hdr optimzer off so display type shouldnt matter

Thanks!
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post #4457 of 5360 Old 04-24-2019, 09:35 AM
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Last night I watched Thor Ragnarok 4K UHD disc (pan ub820, JVC rs2000) with the DTM enabled on the lumagen.

I noticed during several random bright scenes the picture would significantly darken, then be back to normal on the next scene. This is the first time Ive noticed this behavior. At first I thought it was my JVC DI malfunctioning, but the behavior continued even with the DI shut off.

After some troubleshooting, I determined it was the subtitles causing it. I usually never use the subtitles so ive never seen this phenomenon before (but I was watching with my parents who need the subtitles).

Turning subtitles off fixed the issue. Also, turning the luminance of the subtitles down to about -10 also resolved the problem.

Perhaps this was already a known issue, but just wanted to see if anyone else has noticed this
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Oppo 203 //Xbox one X // Apple 4k TV
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post #4458 of 5360 Old 04-24-2019, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Superb Jim, congrats on getting it all over the line - certainly a reference grade system! It'd be good to see some pics of it all (either in this thread or another dedicated thread).

Given I also own the RS4500 I'd be interested to hear what settings you've settled on in your Radiance, and also what peak nits you are running HDR at? Also, have you chosen to output BT2020 to you RS4500, or chosen to covert to P3?
I'd be curious too. There are a few of us RS4500 / Radiance Pro owners here.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
I know this is a bit off topic, but thought i would mention we have finished the "Lumagen Demo Theater" in a custom built 19 feet wide by 21 feet long (plus a two foot deep false wall for equipment and speakers) by 12 feet high room. There is still some fine tuning of sound to do, and a few other tweaks, but it is very nice already. Here are some of the fun facts:

Lumagen Radiance Pro 4446 (okay, no surprise here)
JVC RS4500
Stewart Filmscreen Studiotek 130, 168 inch diagonal (155 inch wide), 2.40 fixed screen
Trinnov Altitude 16 in a 9.2.6 configuration
Two Trinnov Amplitude8, eight channel power amplifiers
MiniDSP (to control Sub Woofers) that has not been implemented yet
Revel C208 center channel speaker
Revel F206 for Left and Right speakers
Revel W383 for the 12 surround speakers
Two Hsu Research VTF-15H MK2 Subwoofers
Custom built (by me) enclosures for the surrounds so they point in the correct ATMOS direction
Kaleidescape Strato
Oppo 203 (modified for reduced output jitter and reduced EMI by CineMike in Germany)
Panasonic UB900
Roku Ultra
AppleTV 4k (yet to be installed)
DirecTV
Chairs by Row One (two rows of five with back row on 8 inch riser)
URC control system
Dedicated 30 Amp 240 VAC and 20 Amp 120 VAC circuits for equipment
4 inch thick acoustic panels by Acoustimac
Understated LOTR theme courtesy of my wife

I want to especially thank JVC, Revel, Stewart Filmscreen, and Trinnov for their assistance in helping make our Demo Theater a most excellent place to watch movies and do training. Also thanks to Floyd Toole for his excellent book on acoustics.

I had Craig Rounds (video calibration), Curt Hoyt (audio calibration of the Trinnov), and Kris Deering (video calibration and audio consulting), over for a fun filled weekend to christen the theater and help me get it tuned up. John Schuermann of The Screening Room also attended and gave us his reviewer's view of the theater.

I don't want to hijack this thread so please email me at our Lumagen support email if you would like additional details. Of course, if your questions are appropriate for this thread (e.g. Radiance Pro setup for the RS4500) I think it is fine to ask questions here.
I don't think you can hijack the thread about Lumagen!


Looks like your live about 9 miles from my brother in Portland.
Even more reasons to visit him.

Mike

HT: Oppo UDP-203 -> Lumagen RadiancePro 4446 {18 GHz input x2 & 18 GHz output x1 cards} - "new (112818 FW)" 18 GHz microcode - parallel outs to --> [Audio: Denon 5308CI] --> [Video: JVC RS520 FW v30.1]
HT Details: link
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post #4460 of 5360 Old 04-24-2019, 07:43 PM
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I have decided to join the Lumagen club.

I have purchased a 4242 and will employ the services of Craig Rounds to perform the calibration. I purchased the Lumagen from him as well. I am quite excited to see what can be further improved in my RS4500/Panamorph. I was watching some 4K stuff earlier today and really can not imagine how the image can be further improved - but I have decided to make the investment and find out!!

This is an insane (and very expensive) hobby. I will have more invested in my video system (Lumagen/RS4500/Panamorph/Calibration) than I did in my first home. After this is setup and calibrated, the video components of my theater will be as good as the audio components. As someone said in an earlier post, the Lumagen is to video as the Trinnov is to audio.
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post #4461 of 5360 Old 04-25-2019, 01:50 AM
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I have decided to join the Lumagen club.
I knew it was only a matter of time Chuck
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post #4462 of 5360 Old 04-25-2019, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I have decided to join the Lumagen club.



I have purchased a 4242 and will employ the services of Craig Rounds to perform the calibration. I purchased the Lumagen from him as well. I am quite excited to see what can be further improved in my RS4500/Panamorph. I was watching some 4K stuff earlier today and really can not imagine how the image can be further improved - but I have decided to make the investment and find out!!



This is an insane (and very expensive) hobby. I will have more invested in my video system (Lumagen/RS4500/Panamorph/Calibration) than I did in my first home. After this is setup and calibrated, the video components of my theater will be as good as the audio components. As someone said in an earlier post, the Lumagen is to video as the Trinnov is to audio.


Congrats u will be impressed from what ur pic will be wait to ur first impressions


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post #4463 of 5360 Old 04-25-2019, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I knew it was only a matter of time Chuck
You may know me better than I know me.

It was Dynamic Tone Mapping that got me to make the jump. I know lots of folks love this product, but until DTM, I really had zero interest.
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post #4464 of 5360 Old 04-25-2019, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
You may know me better than I know me.

It was Dynamic Tone Mapping that got me to make the jump. I know lots of folks love this product, but until DTM, I really had zero interest.
Now you just need to replace the Paladin lens with a Paladin DCR lens to complete your journey down the very slippery slope !
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post #4465 of 5360 Old 04-25-2019, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I have decided to join the Lumagen club.

I have purchased a 4242 and will employ the services of Craig Rounds to perform the calibration. I purchased the Lumagen from him as well. I am quite excited to see what can be further improved in my RS4500/Panamorph. I was watching some 4K stuff earlier today and really can not imagine how the image can be further improved - but I have decided to make the investment and find out!!

This is an insane (and very expensive) hobby. I will have more invested in my video system (Lumagen/RS4500/Panamorph/Calibration) than I did in my first home. After this is setup and calibrated, the video components of my theater will be as good as the audio components. As someone said in an earlier post, the Lumagen is to video as the Trinnov is to audio.
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
You may know me better than I know me.

It was Dynamic Tone Mapping that got me to make the jump. I know lots of folks love this product, but until DTM, I really had zero interest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Now you just need to replace the Paladin lens with a Paladin DCR lens to complete your journey down the very slippery slope !
And a Kaleidescope! HA! (You won't live forever. Might as well spend more of that retirement cash now! Then in a few years we can go live in the poorhouse together!)
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https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade starts end of July 2019!
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post #4466 of 5360 Old 04-25-2019, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
And a Kaleidescope! HA! (You won't live forever. Might as well spend more of that retirement cash now! Then in a few years we can go live in the poorhouse together!)
If I keep spending on this hobby like I have in the last 6 to 12 months (Trinnov, two new amps, 4 more speakers, RS4500, Lumagen, Paladin and calibration), I won't even be able to afford the poorhouse.

I had a Kaleidescape system but sold it since, in my opinion and for my needs, it has far too many shortcomings for 4K/HDR. I want a 100% disc-less solution as I don't want to try and remember if the movie I want to watch is on the K system or on my shelf. I absolutely loved the K system for SDR since for movies K could not support, I could use the Disc Vault or use the Vault for my existing library. But since there is no 4K version of the Disc Vault, I still need a disc player for those movies K does not support. And, K is still releasing 4K movies with 5.1 audio even if the shiny disc has Atmos. Yes, they may eventually re-release an Atmos version but why would I want to watch again. Lastly, if K goes "toes up" AGAIN, for every movie you buy from them (and for which you do not have the shiny disc) you are screwed if your hardware fails. Yes, you may get digital rights to that movie, but I have not invested what I have in my audio and video system to be forced to watch movies with compressed audio and video.

And I have thought about swapping my Paladin for a DCR, but given the fairly small increase in light output, I am willing forgo that "upgrade". Given my screen size, throw distance and the addition of the Lumagen, I don't think I will be light-starved when viewing HDR films.
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post #4467 of 5360 Old 04-25-2019, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
If I keep spending on this hobby like I have in the last 6 to 12 months (Trinnov, two new amps, 4 more speakers, RS4500, Lumagen, Paladin and calibration), I won't even be able to afford the poorhouse.

I had a Kaleidescape system but sold it since, in my opinion and for my needs, it has far too many shortcomings for 4K/HDR. I want a 100% disc-less solution as I don't want to try and remember if the movie I want to watch is on the K system or on my shelf. I absolutely loved the K system for SDR since for movies K could not support, I could use the Disc Vault or use the Vault for my existing library. But since there is no 4K version of the Disc Vault, I still need a disc player for those movies K does not support. And, K is still releasing 4K movies with 5.1 audio even if the shiny disc has Atmos. Yes, they may eventually re-release an Atmos version but why would I want to watch again. Lastly, if K goes "toes up" AGAIN, for every movie you buy from them (and for which you do not have the shiny disc) you are screwed if your hardware fails. Yes, you may get digital rights to that movie, but I have not invested what I have in my audio and video system to be forced to watch movies with compressed audio and video.

And I have thought about swapping my Paladin for a DCR, but given the fairly small increase in light output, I am willing forgo that "upgrade". Given my screen size, throw distance and the addition of the Lumagen, I don't think I will be light-starved when viewing HDR films.
I was just joshin' you! HA! I get it!

https://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show....php?t=1158431 No dealer is authorized to tell you I refer to them - any referrals I make will be done personally by me. Over the years I have found certain dealer(s) who I cannot recommend for good reason.
! 9.4.13 Trinnov Altitude 32 Theatre renovation/upgrade starts end of July 2019!
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post #4468 of 5360 Old 04-25-2019, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I have decided to join the Lumagen club.

I have purchased a 4242 and will employ the services of Craig Rounds to perform the calibration. I purchased the Lumagen from him as well. I am quite excited to see what can be further improved in my RS4500/Panamorph. I was watching some 4K stuff earlier today and really can not imagine how the image can be further improved - but I have decided to make the investment and find out!!

This is an insane (and very expensive) hobby. I will have more invested in my video system (Lumagen/RS4500/Panamorph/Calibration) than I did in my first home. After this is setup and calibrated, the video components of my theater will be as good as the audio components. As someone said in an earlier post, the Lumagen is to video as the Trinnov is to audio.

Congratulations! I also have a 4242 calibrated by Craig and I believe you will be very happy with the picture you'll get. Enjoy!
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post #4469 of 5360 Old 04-26-2019, 02:04 AM
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Flo, I'm cross-quoting your post from the other thread, as the discussion is more relevant here.

@jrp Jim, this is a discussion from another thread where Flo (owner of the excellent ProjectionDream website, and creator of a MadVR dynamic tone mapping add-on) is querying how Lumagen DTM is working, and more specifically how it is interacting with the Display Max Light setting, more specifically I think Flo's initial perception is that because we are entering a multiplier derived DML setting for projector set-ups, the system isn't tone mapping dynamically/correctly. I think Flo's perception is incorrect, so below is my attempt to explain it. I have brought the discussion here in the hope you can answer directly to Flo, and correct any errors in my explanations below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
If what you say is up to date for the Lumagen DTM, and from what you are describing, lumagen dynamic tone mapping seems to still be using a fixed "display target nits / display max light setting" as madVR used to do in the past.
In that state, only the movie peak defined in bt2390 is adjusted dynamically based on the measured frame peak.

In that level of development, projector users do have to lie and use a factor for the target nits so that the highlights become less compressed.
I may be misunderstanding but I suspect you've got the wrong end of the stick on this, but I'll do my best to full in the gaps as much as I'm able, where I can understand what you're asking. I am only a user on the outside looking in, I don't have working knowledge of exactly how the algorithms are constructed - you'd be better placed asking more specific questions on this thread so @jrp Jim can answer directly (as long as the answer isn't likely to expose any IP). But I'll have a stab at it:

The Radiance Display Max Light setting is simply inputting the displays measured peak brightness in its HDR mode. It is not in any way setting a hard clip point for the tone mapping algo (I think that what you were thinking above?). It works (as far as I am aware) in exactly the same way as your add-on that you describe works for MadVR, in that you enter the displays measured peak nits.

The only difference is, they way the Radiance handles the figure that is entered, as it seems to assume it is for a flat panel where 1 nit input = 1 nit output, which obviously isn't appropriate for a projector, so we currently have to apply a multiplier to our measured peak luminance and enter that calculated figure, otherwise the overall picture level is too bright.

I will admit, I don't like having to do that, as you rightly point out, it adds too much guess work into the setting, and leads to trial and error to get the average picture level (nit-for-nit area excluding highlights) to what you would expect with the equivalent SDR version. I would much rather enter an actual measured peak nits as you describe, and then select a check box to tell the system that I'm using a projector so the nit-for-nit range is scaled correctly for projector use. I have requested this before. Jim can probably outline if the system cannot be altered to work this way for projector owners?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
Here a bit of history about madVR evolution in dynamic tone mapping:

MadVR went through that phase at some point with a static target nits for all movies a long time ago.
While having a dynamic tone mapping up to the frame peak nits still helps a lot for decompressing the picture and give it back some pop, it's still far from optimal. A static target nits is a compromise for brightness and picture depth over all movies available.

Later on, @Manni01 introduced profile rules based on your REAL nits on the screen and the maxCLL of the movie to automatically select an appropriate target nits per movie.
For a movie like blade runner 2049 with 99% of all frame peak below 150nits, it makes no sense to have a display target nits higher than that... EXCEPT if your display real nits is higher. Then you should use that instead so that you watch the movie with the correct brightness, and not brighter than intended.

Later on came the possibility to pre measure movie and to get more usefull variable like avgfmll, which is the avg frame peak throughout the movie. And then the target nits profiled evolved to use that instead of the often useless maxcll.

And then later again, Anna and I introduced a dynamic target nits algo within a add-on tool for madVR based on the measured histogram and peak.

Goal 1) is to have nits for nits rendered at the screen whenever possible for example if the frame peak is lower than your real nits at the screen. For that to happen you need know to tell the truth about your real nits. In your case 150nits. Any frame with a peak lower than 150nits, will be rendered perfectly /no compression with the original brightness. Target nits =real display nits.

Goal 2) is to never compress to much the highlights which would create a flat image. If the analysed frame is bright (high Fall value), then you need a higher target nits than your real nits. How high will depend on the frame. The meg can need target nits above 1000nits in some cases. But never higher than the frame peak because this would throw away brightness.

The Fall algo from our tool "madmeasurehdr optimizer" is now directly available in the LIVE algo without pre measurement needed.

Dynamic Target nits was kind of a revolution since you get much more brightness whenever possible and much more picture depth whenever needed, per movie and changing dynamically during a movie.

And dynamic target nits is only possible if madVR/Lumagen knows your real nits.

:-)
As I mentioned above, as far as the system is concerned the user is entering their real nits, its just as a projector owner you've got to fudge the figure a bit to get there (as I say, I don't like having to do that, but that's how is currently works).

The end result however is still the same, and your Goals 1) and 2) are achieved, and is how I understand Lumagen DTM works currently in that every frame, or 'scene' is rendered based on its frame/scene MaxCLL and MaxY (Lumagens nomenclature for MaxFALL), plus no doubt other factors I'm not privy too.

Your comment "Dynamic Target nits was kind of a revolution since you get much more brightness whenever possible and much more picture depth whenever needed, per movie and changing dynamically during a movie." is exactly what many of us on this thread have found when Lumagens DTM was released.

Just out of interest, I assume your algo already takes account of the fact that a projector is being used, or you have some sort of check box to select a projector vs a flat panel? How do users account for differing preferences in average brightness level of the nit-for-nit range - similar to setting SDR peak luminance in that some might prefer 42nits (12FtL) while some prefer 61nits (18FtL)? I imagine there is still a bit of 'fudging' that has to be done on projectors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post
So we should probably differentiate or at least clarify what exactly is doing the Lumagen compared to madVR.

MadVR dynamic tone mapping per frame/scene includes:

- dynamic movie peak adjusted to frame peak
- dynamic target nits
- dynamic clipping
As a consequence dark scene below your real display nits will all look identical regardless of the max projector lumens and nits on the screen.
And bright scene will preserve hdr effect and contrast but will only be displayed less bright than intended.

:-)

OK, I'll try; as far as I can tell, the above is essentially exactly what Lumagen DTM is doing.

- I don't believe there is any 'dynamic movie peak', just dynamic frame (or group of similar frames = 'scene') peak
- I'm not sure what you mean by dynamic target nits? I believe there is just the measured frame/scene peak nits, and the user entered display peak nits. DTM will then render the frame based on that. Where frame peak nits < display peak nits, no tone mapping will apply and the frame will be rendered nit-for-nit input to output (obviously scaled back on a projector as you don't want to display 50nits input as 50nits on screen for example). Where frame peak nits > display peak nits, the DTM algo will then tone map the highlights whilst trying to preserve as much of the nit-for-nit range as possible without overly compressing the highlights.

For more clarification, this is a recent post Jim made on that same subject:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

- Currently for Dynamic Tone Mapping the "Low-Set" Shape and Transition parameters do not affect the Dynamic Tone Mapping. Thrang was first to point this out (that I saw). Turns out to be that the "Low" curve is lower than his setting for Display Max Light of 400. Without getting into too many details, if you are doing HDR and the "display" says it has more range then the source needs (this case) then no Tone Mapping is needed since the "display" can render the entire range of the source. As an example if you have a 1000 nit TV and a 1000 nit source you can render the source without tone mapping, but for a 4000 nit source you would need tone mapping.

- So while this is *not* a bug, it is a choice we are reconsidering. Based on feedback the current choice works very well, other than the Low-Set Shape and Transition do not change the transfer function.

- I actually designed the low to high Tone Mapping Blend equations to allow the current Frame MaxCLL to be well below the low-curve-nit-point, and to also be able to be well above the high-curve-nit-point. This is because originally I planned on the low curve being higher than we ended up with, and just plain did not consider the effect using a much lower nit curve would have on using Shape and Transition.

- We are now planning to raise the "nit point" of the low-nit curve up so that for devices in the <700 nits range Shape and Transition will have some effect on the transfer function. This should give extra control for Dynamic Tone Mapping and *may* help tune the scenes referenced in the various posts.

=====

Some general comments on Dynamic Tone Mapping:

It is not possible to get perfect results for every scene using Dynamic Tone Mapping. Also, Dynamic Tone Mapping results will be different than Static to some degree. For almost all scenes the Dynamic Tone Mapping results should be better than Static Tone Mapping.

Tone Mapping is all about trade-offs. If you are trying to reproduce Mad Max Fury Road with a MaxCLL of 9919-ish nits on a 100 nit projector, something's gotta give. In general we believe allocating more of the range to low and mid-tones and allowing highlights to show some clamping looks the best. You may not agree (and you have controls to change this if you wish).

I think saying that having more controls means the job is not done ignores that different producers do things differently, and every person has their personal preferences. The only way to deal with this is enough controls to tune the image to personal taste and compensate for differences in the content. I don't get that people say there are too many controls when they do not have to use them since the default settings are extremely good.

We spent a great deal of effort on tuning Static HDR Mapping. I want to thank everyone who gave us feedback on optimal settings for Static Tone Mapping. A special thanks to Kris Deering who's feedback and parameter settings were instrumental in getting the Static Tone Mapping tuned and selecting the current parameter defaults we use for Static Tone Mapping.

If a scene "looks better" with static as compared to Dynamic Tone Mapping, then it likely means that the Static MaxCLL number was "wrong," but happily so in that it improved the scene slightly. Of course as people point scenes where they think Static Tone Mapping looks better we can investigate and see if there is a way to improve Dynamic Tone Mapping.
Apologies all for the gargantuan post, I just wanted to lay the foundations for having this discussion on topic here, rather than off-topic on other threads.

Last edited by Wookii; 04-26-2019 at 02:12 AM.
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post #4470 of 5360 Old 04-26-2019, 04:17 AM
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@Wookii

Thanks for bringing the topic here.

Here the begining of the discussion:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post57954362

Again from your new explanation, it seems that Lumagen only implemented the first stone of dynamic tone mapping.

And that is using the frame peak instead of the movie peak in the bt2390 formulas.

However: display target nits, also defined in the bt2390 can also be made dynamic as it has been done in madVR. And this has a huge positive impact on the global picture.
And you can only do that if you can enter your real nits "somewhere" so that madVR / lumagen could decide on the fly what display target nits should be used with real nits as the low bound (or 2×real nits if you want to put the diffuse white at 50nits for projector)

I'll let Jim answer that.

In any case, dynamic peak was already something we considered as a big improvement for madVR. So I can imagine how Lumagen users would be happy going from completely static to dynamic tone mapping up to frame peak.

But the improvement with dynamic display target nits was even bigger in my opinion. As it impacts the global brightness on the fly. If done well to be invisible, you can 1:1 brightness in some cases with real nits=target nits or preserve picture dynamic range (at the cost of a dimmer picture) instead of compressing too much by raising the target nits as much as necessary.
The smart resides in how to choose this dynamic target nits since no paper is describing it.

Last edited by Soulnight; 04-26-2019 at 04:37 AM.
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