New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 151 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4501 of 4894 Old 04-28-2019, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
If you have, say, 150 nits like @Wookii has and DML at 500 then an SDR-esque scene within an HDR10 container (100 nits max content) would be much brighter than the equivalent from an SDR source configured for "normal" SDR projection levels.
Nice work James, that’s really interesting. I have thought for a while that the average picture levels looked brighter under DTM than IM, but hadn’t got around to trying to measure anything.

I’ll run some measures tonight and post for comparison purposes, it will be interesting to see if it tracks in a similar way. However if your DTM percentage column is correct, and you’re running at a DML setting of 700 with 75 peak nits off screen, it would suggest for my 150nits, I need the DML setting to be up around 1400-1500?

I really do wish we had the option to tell the Radiance Pro that a projector was being used, and enter the actual measured peak luminance. It would take out a lot of the guesswork. Perhaps now Jim has an RS4500 set up and running to test it on, this might be a possible future development.
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post #4502 of 4894 Old 04-28-2019, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
That's interesting.

I'm in the range of 110-130 nits and use 700 since IM. That was a decision I made when I tested several ST.2084 LUTs. But for IM to work with 700 you have to tweak the other parameters a bit.

With DTM I can leave all parameters where they were.
Yes, it is all very interesting. As I say when I've set this by eye I've settled lower typically; my process has usually gone "too bright, too bright, that starts to look nice, that looks good, that looks darker than what I thought looked good, back up"... which I can see now gives me brighter than typical reference SDR diffuse white. Damn you, lying eyes! :-p.

So have you put up a 100 nit (or 92 nit) test image with your current settings? what level do you end up with when you do that?

I'm certainly not saying using the DML control to hit source 100 nits at reference SDR levels is the right way to set these up; I just found it interesting how it all seems to behave given what my internal calibration was telling me to set DML to.
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post #4503 of 4894 Old 04-28-2019, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Nice work James, that’s really interesting. I have thought for a while that the average picture levels looked brighter under DTM than IM, but hadn’t got around to trying to measure anything.

I’ll run some measures tonight and post for comparison purposes, it will be interesting to see if it tracks in a similar way. However if your DTM percentage column is correct, and you’re running at a DML setting of 700 with 75 peak nits off screen, it would suggest for my 150nits, I need the DML setting to be up around 1400-1500?

I really do wish we had the option to tell the Radiance Pro that a projector was being used, and enter the actual measured peak luminance. It would take out a lot of the guesswork. Perhaps now Jim has an RS4500 set up and running to test it on, this might be a possible future development.
If I recall right the DML stopped doing anything "useful" for that 92 nit patch much above 900 nits, I think that was it slowing right down and probably why I didn't go any higher.

As per my note to Karl - I'm certainly not saying this is a right way to set them up, but I was interested in how bright that 92 nit patch ended up on my screen given my limited nits.
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post #4504 of 4894 Old 04-28-2019, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
So have you put up a 100 nit (or 92 nit) test image with your current settings? what level do you end up with when you do that?
No, I have to admit that it was based on a multiplier I used in LightSpace and found suitable for average picture brightness in my setup. If I remember correctly, it was somewhere between 5.5 and 6.
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VP/Calibration: Lumagen Radiance Pro, LightSpace CMS, x-rite i1 Pro 2, x-rite i1 Display 3
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post #4505 of 4894 Old 04-28-2019, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
No, I have to admit that it was based on a multiplier I used in LightSpace and found suitable for average picture brightness in my setup. If I remember correctly, it was somewhere between 5.5 and 6.
We've come at it from similar angles I think. I also started my HDR journey with LUTs created in LS using the manual multiplier option, so have grown accustomed to the "suck it and see" approach...
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post #4506 of 4894 Old 04-28-2019, 04:54 PM
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The more I read in this thread the more glad I am that I have chosen to have my Lumagen calibrated by someone who knows what they are doing.

What seems to be happening in the last several posts is a lot of "nit picking"!! (I'm sorry, I just could not control myself)
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post #4507 of 4894 Old 04-29-2019, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
The more I read in this thread the more glad I am that I have chosen to have my Lumagen calibrated by someone who knows what they are doing.

What seems to be happening in the last several posts is a lot of "nit picking"!! (I'm sorry, I just could not control myself)
Chuck, think of it as being similar to adjusting the target curve and the advanced Optimiser settings in the Trinnov Altitude - not so much 'nit picking' as trying to adjust settings to optimise performance.
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post #4508 of 4894 Old 04-29-2019, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Chuck, think of it as being similar to adjusting the target curve and the advanced Optimiser settings in the Trinnov Altitude - not so much 'nit picking' as trying to adjust settings to optimise performance.
I think I understand what the objective of the discussion is. But it points out, yet again, how very little I understand about video, and in this case in particular, about how to use the Lumagen. Which I why I commented about being glad that I am having someone else do the work.

And in many ways, I am quite pleased that I don't really understand. In the audio side, I can't seem to just pick a target curve and adjust some of the Optimizer parameters and be done with it. There ALWAYS sits in the back of my mind, "I wonder what it would sound like if I .........". If I had that knowledge and capability in video (as well as audio), I would never end up actually watching movies. I'd spend all of my time diddling and tweaking. Part of the curse of the hobby (and my own "curious" personality).
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post #4509 of 4894 Old 04-29-2019, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loggeo View Post
This is more to validate the method we have been using so far and hopefully it helps with your questions. I never used just the default settings, so it will be interesting to recheck now. If only jvc would deliver my projector..
Lumagen has an adjustable MaxCLL crossover for static tone mapping. It defaults at 2500 nits. Therefore you can have different settings (presets) for above and below crossover settings.
Its preset consists of some sub settings to optimize static tone mapping (ratio, shape, transition, hdsaturation, gamma, black).
While you set the display max light once (defaults at 500 nits but it is also adjustable), you can use the ratio sub setting to adjust max display light per preset.
Ideally you optimize the 2 presets and then enable the dynamic tone mapping.
At least this is what I have been doing with a temporary projector I have here.
If you are referring to the "Crossover Pt", It was posted at some point that this is disabled when Dynamic Tone Mapping is enabled, as it is only used for static tone mapping now. I don't know if that changed as soon as Dynamic Tone Mapping was implemented, or as they refined the algorithm.

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post #4510 of 4894 Old 04-29-2019, 08:55 AM
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A little off topic but for those that are GOT Fans/watchers any thoughts on the video/audio quality of last nights episode. For me...I thought it was awful streaming on ATV4k with HBOGO. Very unfortunate as I was really looking forward to it. As far a streaming seems to have come all I could think of is please give me the physical disk Blu-Ray version instead!
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post #4511 of 4894 Old 04-29-2019, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by dinamigym View Post
A little off topic but for those that are GOT Fans/watchers any thoughts on the video/audio quality of last nights episode. For me...I thought it was awful streaming on ATV4k with HBOGO. Very unfortunate as I was really looking forward to it. As far a streaming seems to have come all I could think of is please give me the physical disk Blu-Ray version instead!
I agree. There are multiple comments in the GOT thread on this and on other social media.
11 people were watching it with me -- they didn't complain -- but I thought it was terrible.
ATV4K with HBO NOW.
The BR and S1 4K UHD are great.
I remember the cable DVR'd episodes also were formatted oddly. Disappointing for such a big budget production.
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HT: Oppo UDP-203 -> Lumagen RadiancePro 4446 {18 GHz input x2 & 18 GHz output x1 cards} - "new (112818 FW)" 18 GHz microcode - parallel outs to --> [Audio: Denon 5308CI] --> [Video: JVC RS520 FW v30.1]
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post #4512 of 4894 Old 04-29-2019, 11:37 AM
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The latest firmware's DTM is so far stable and issue free for me. Good job!
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post #4513 of 4894 Old 04-29-2019, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mhafner View Post
The latest firmware's DTM is so far stable and issue free for me. Good job!



I downloaded the lastest and had no issues whatsoever, picture is impressive for sure, might try and go into the CMS settings and try to figure a little more out on that, i have the HDR set to 8 as someone suggested, but after reading the posts, it looks like i was supposed to leave that alone and increase some numbers in the cms instead.
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post #4514 of 4894 Old 04-29-2019, 05:17 PM
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Arrow FW Beta 042119

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...ncepro_updates

Beta 042119
Kept other improvements from 042019 but reverted back to older 18 Ghz input chip microcode as newer version had numerous connectivity issues with many sources.
Working with chip vendor for improvements.
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware---systems with 18Ghz input cards will have ~1 minute bootup time on first power up after this update---if after first power-on it comes up with green/pink colorization then turn Pro off and back on to power-up for a second time.
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HT: Oppo UDP-203 -> Lumagen RadiancePro 4446 {18 GHz input x2 & 18 GHz output x1 cards} - "new (112818 FW)" 18 GHz microcode - parallel outs to --> [Audio: Denon 5308CI] --> [Video: JVC RS520 FW v30.1]
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Hello everyone,

As some of you know, Jim Peterson from Lumagen® posted a webinar presentation he provided to dealers and calibrators in December, 2017.

While that document contained a lot of useful information, I was struggling to process that along with the manual, so I combined excerpts from the webinar, the manual, tech tips, forum posts, and ChromaPure calibration information into an 88-page document to help me understand setup and calibration of the Radiance™ Pro, as well as to create a step-by-step guide to calibration.

This guide has become especially pertinent for me as we have been witnessing the birth and evolution of the Dynamic Tone Mapping. I had shared this directly with a few members, but decided to ask Jim's permission to post this more widely, and have uploaded to Google Drive, so you can download it if you wish.

Jim just asked that I caution that this is not an official Lumagen® document; it is an aggregation of information that I collected.

I suspect the section on tone mapping may be of the most interest, since the development managed to get ahead of the manual, so if you want to take a peek, it starts on page 69. Note that to retain the proper formatting, you will need to download it as the original MS Word document, as it doesn't properly format when viewed.

If you all catch any errors, please let me know. Jim caught a few things after scanning it briefly before starting his vacation, but I am sure there is room for improvement. Any items highlighted in red are issues that I noticed, but have not yet addressed.

Mark

Here is the link to the document
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post #4516 of 4894 Old 04-30-2019, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...ncepro_updates



Beta 042119

Kept other improvements from 042019 but reverted back to older 18 Ghz input chip microcode as newer version had numerous connectivity issues with many sources.

Working with chip vendor for improvements.

Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .

Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware---systems with 18Ghz input cards will have ~1 minute bootup time on first power up after this update---if after first power-on it comes up with green/pink colorization then turn Pro off and back on to power-up for a second time.


Just to be sure do I need to remove the hdmi cable before i do the update ?


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post #4517 of 4894 Old 04-30-2019, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by A7mad78 View Post
Just to be sure do I need to remove the hdmi cable before i do the update ?


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I don't. I have a USB from back to a front adapter on my MA rack plate for FW updates.

HT: Oppo UDP-203 -> Lumagen RadiancePro 4446 {18 GHz input x2 & 18 GHz output x1 cards} - "new (112818 FW)" 18 GHz microcode - parallel outs to --> [Audio: Denon 5308CI] --> [Video: JVC RS520 FW v30.1]
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post #4518 of 4894 Old 04-30-2019, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post
I don't. I have a USB from back to a front adapter on my MA rack plate for FW updates.
I think he's referring to the recommendation previously in this thread, to remove the HDMI cable before updating the HDMI micro-code Mike.
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post #4519 of 4894 Old 04-30-2019, 08:28 AM
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Red face Remove the HDMI cable before updating the HDMI micro-code

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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I think he's referring to the recommendation previously in this thread, to remove the HDMI cable before updating the HDMI micro-code Mike.
Ah. Thanks. I missed that.

HT: Oppo UDP-203 -> Lumagen RadiancePro 4446 {18 GHz input x2 & 18 GHz output x1 cards} - "new (112818 FW)" 18 GHz microcode - parallel outs to --> [Audio: Denon 5308CI] --> [Video: JVC RS520 FW v30.1]
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post #4520 of 4894 Old 04-30-2019, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I think he's referring to the recommendation previously in this thread, to remove the HDMI cable before updating the HDMI micro-code Mike.


Yes that what I mean so it’s batter in this update to remove it before i made the update or it’s save to keep them


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post #4521 of 4894 Old 04-30-2019, 09:52 AM
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Yes that what I mean so it’s batter in this update to remove it before i made the update or it’s save to keep them


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any help pls I don’t want to lose my hdmi cable they brand new


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post #4522 of 4894 Old 04-30-2019, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by A7mad78 View Post
any help pls I don’t want to lose my hdmi cable they brand new


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I did not disconnect my HDMI cable and everything worked fine. It cannot hurt though to disconnect it prior upgrading
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post #4523 of 4894 Old 04-30-2019, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by A7mad78 View Post
any help pls I don’t want to lose my hdmi cable they brand new


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You won’t hurt your cable either way. I’ve updated my Lumagen countless times with cables attached. The preferred method just seems to be to disconnect cables from Lumagen prior to update and then reattach after.


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post #4524 of 4894 Old 04-30-2019, 10:39 AM
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You won’t hurt your cable either way. I’ve updated my Lumagen countless times with cables attached. The preferred method just seems to be to disconnect cables from Lumagen prior to update and then reattach after.


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Thx I do this in regular updates but if thing about microcode chip change from old to new or vice versa i remove the hdmi cables from the pro but just to update the microcode that already use that’s my Q if needed or just install without remove same as change the microcode from old to new


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post #4525 of 4894 Old 04-30-2019, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by A7mad78 View Post
Thx I do this in regular updates but if thing about microcode chip change from old to new or vice versa i remove the hdmi cables from the pro but just to update the microcode that already use that’s my Q if needed or just install without remove same as change the microcode from old to new


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I think that removing the HDMI cables was Jim’s recommendation, but why don’t they put that in the release notes?

For the record, I forgot to do this during the last update that included an HDMI microcode update and the unit did not self-destruct and say “No HDMI for you!”




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post #4526 of 4894 Old 04-30-2019, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post
I think that removing the HDMI cables was Jim’s recommendation, but why don’t they put that in the release notes?

For the record, I forgot to do this during the last update that included an HDMI microcode update and the unit did not self-destruct and say “No HDMI for you!”




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Hahah I do it now without removing seem every thing good lazy to remove


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post #4527 of 4894 Old 05-01-2019, 12:39 AM
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Maybe a useful tip for Lightspace users, maybe just showing my ignorance ; I've been successfully using the SDRP3 method with a 2.4 P3 D65 LUT in my Lumagen Pro for some time (works great) but always struggled to get a correct validation out of LS after then actually using that LUT and conversion in the Radiance. I could validate fine using manual patches and HCFR, but I never managed to get the right combination of settings in LS to:
a) make the patches line up with the targets and
b) avoid measuring a load of 2020 patches which we know are going to be way out of achievable gamut for most of us (and not useful either).

I finally figured out what combination of settings are required in the LS windows. In particular the "sub colourspace" feature is a relatively recent addition I believe.

Basically you set the validation to be against ST2084 P3 D65 targets, but the patch generation to be ST2084 P3 D65 as a sub colourspace of ST2084 2020. Note that although you created your LUT using SDR P3 D65 w/ 2.4 gamma, once in HDR mode the patches have to be generated for ST2084.

It's a shame that the built in QP sets don't have more saturation points and a dimmer set though, 75% is still very bright for ST2084 for most folk doing projection.


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post #4528 of 4894 Old 05-01-2019, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post
Hello everyone,

As some of you know, Jim Peterson from Lumagen® posted a webinar presentation he provided to dealers and calibrators in December, 2017.

While that document contained a lot of useful information, I was struggling to process that along with the manual, so I combined excerpts from the webinar, the manual, tech tips, forum posts, and ChromaPure calibration information into an 88-page document to help me understand setup and calibration of the Radiance™ Pro, as well as to create a step-by-step guide to calibration.

This guide has become especially pertinent for me as we have been witnessing the birth and evolution of the Dynamic Tone Mapping. I had shared this directly with a few members, but decided to ask Jim's permission to post this more widely, and have uploaded to Google Drive, so you can download it if you wish.

Jim just asked that I caution that this is not an official Lumagen® document; it is an aggregation of information that I collected.

I suspect the section on tone mapping may be of the most interest, since the development managed to get ahead of the manual, so if you want to take a peek, it starts on page 69. Note that to retain the proper formatting, you will need to download it as the original MS Word document, as it doesn't properly format when viewed.

If you all catch any errors, please let me know. Jim caught a few things after scanning it briefly before starting his vacation, but I am sure there is room for improvement. Any items highlighted in red are issues that I noticed, but have not yet addressed.

Mark

Here is the link to the document
Brilliant work on collecting this all in one place, much appreciated!
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post #4529 of 4894 Old 05-01-2019, 03:13 AM
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Question HDMI unplugging when FW updating?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinamigym View Post
You won’t hurt your cable either way. I’ve updated my Lumagen countless times with cables attached. The preferred method just seems to be to disconnect cables from Lumagen prior to update and then reattach after.


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Originally Posted by A7mad78 View Post
Thx I do this in regular updates but if thing about microcode chip change from old to new or vice versa i remove the hdmi cables from the pro but just to update the microcode that already use that’s my Q if needed or just install without remove same as change the microcode from old to new


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Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post
I think that removing the HDMI cables was Jim’s recommendation, but why don’t they put that in the release notes?

For the record, I forgot to do this during the last update that included an HDMI microcode update and the unit did not self-destruct and say “No HDMI for you!”




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Originally Posted by A7mad78 View Post
Hahah I do it now without removing seem every thing good lazy to remove


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I don't think I have removed my HDMI cables when updating.
Maybe back on "new (112818 FW)" 18 GHz microcode, but not since.
My equipment is in a Middle Atlantic rack with difficult access to the rear of the units.
(one of many things I would do differently if building a new home theater)
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HT: Oppo UDP-203 -> Lumagen RadiancePro 4446 {18 GHz input x2 & 18 GHz output x1 cards} - "new (112818 FW)" 18 GHz microcode - parallel outs to --> [Audio: Denon 5308CI] --> [Video: JVC RS520 FW v30.1]
HT Details: link
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post #4530 of 4894 Old 05-01-2019, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post
I don't think I have removed my HDMI cables when updating.
Maybe back on "new (112818 FW)" 18 GHz microcode, but not since.
My equipment is in a Middle Atlantic rack with difficult access to the rear of the units.
(one of many things I would do differently if building a new home theater)
I don't disconnect, but I find quite often my ATV4K needs a reboot after a Radiance update. It will be left in an odd state either with no video or with working video but HDCP issues.
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