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post #4711 of 4894 Old 06-04-2019, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post
I have a shield and 18 GHz input and output cards, so I can provide some feedback. However, I am confused why you are attempting to use YUV 422 12-bit Rec. 709 for HDR files (which I assume are 4K HDR). Did you mean to type "SDR files" instead of "HDR files"?

Mark
What are the settings you are using for the Nvidia Shield? Are you using Kodi or another app for playback? When playing an HDR file what does the OK button on the Lumagen indicate?

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post #4712 of 4894 Old 06-04-2019, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbon Ft Print View Post
A year or so ago, @jrp recommends Tributaries for 6-10ft lengths and RUIPRO for longer lengths. @jrp
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Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post
I have several 2M Tributaries and a 25m Ruipro, they work flawlessly and I never have a handshake issue with them.
Ok, can you advise which specific Tributaries series of cables? They have 5 different UHD types.

Sony VPL-VW520 | Elitescreens TT 135" 2.35:1 | Elitescreens TT 120" 16x9 | Prismasonic HD-6000F | Onkyo TX-RZ3100 | Oppo UDP-203 | PS4 PRO | ATV4K | LG OLED 65 C7 | Klipsch Reference RP-280 | Klipsch Reference RP-280C | Klipsch Reference RP-250S | Klipsch Reference RP-150M | Klipsch Reference R-115SW | Klipsch Reference R-140SA
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post #4713 of 4894 Old 06-05-2019, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
Thanks for the screenshot. This looks OK to me. Which value did you set for Display Max Light?
If I remember it correctly, this is how it looked with 011119. But I have to check it again this weekend to be sure.

With The MEG, I have four examples:

00:18-00:20 -> Clipping
01:13 -> Clipping in red background
05:23 -> overexposed (too bright)
05:56 -> overexposed (too bright)

I have seen these issues in two different installations with different settings (my own and at a friend).

I attached four screenshots from VLC. They are just for illustration and not actually projected. I try to get some projected screenshots this weekend.
First, thanks for the report. We will look into these further, but I checked these on my Pro/RS4500 to see what is going on.

00:18: The Sunburst is very bright. I do not see what I would call "clipping." I checked the max brightness of the scene and the internal "MaxCLL" calculated by the Pro for the scene looks good and is a bit higher than the brightest pixels (which are near white and so MaxY is larger than MaxCLL). There are some significant transitions in the Sunburst. The center of the burst is in the 3000 nit range. Where it transitions to what I would call the start of the corona is about 650 nits. If you have a 100 nit projector this range *must* be compressed. While the Pro output is not clipping, the input to output transfer function slope is very shallow for the Sunburst center to corona. But it is not "Clipping" IMO.

If you have a projector with a limited internal bit depth you might see clipping. The Sony 5000 internally truncates to 8-bits as the data enters the "DCI projector" portion of the light engine. This limited bit depth could show some clipping in this scene (and others). If you have such a projector try setting the Pro output dither to 8-bit and see if this reduces the clipping you are seeing. The dither should help with clipping if a projector truncates to 8-bits internal because the Pro will have adapted the data for an 8-bit projector pipeline.

01:13: I do see clipping in the red on the right shoulder of the person's protective suit. I checked the data and looks to be a fully saturated red. So this is at the full Rec 2020 Gamut extent for red and while the RS4500 is a great projector it cannot show a fully saturated Rec 2020 red and so will clip at its Gamut limit. I checked the calculated MaxCLL for the scene and it again looks good. To see if the issue is Dynamic Tone Mapping, or just projector color clipping, I would need a display that can show a fully saturated Rec 2020 red. I suspect the clipping is the projector Gamut limitation and not a DTM limitation. Can't be sure though.

Is your projector capable of a fully saturated Rec 2020 red? I don't know of any consumer projectors or displays that can, but if someone has one they can check this scene and let us know the results.

05:23 and 05:56: The clouds do look brighter than in Static Tone Mapping (STM) mode. I looked at the levels and the clouds are in the 1000 to 1500 nit range, and other than the light at the lower right (for 05:23) the rest of the scenes are below 700 nits with most under 500 nits, and the ocean is about 200 nits (at 05:23). So the clouds *should* be very bright and IMO are correct in the DTM and too dark with STM. That said we are already looking into the brightness of clouds in another scene in the Meg (about 58:05, MEG's fin in water) to see if we can get more detail. However, given how bright the clouds are they are in the "shallow slope" portion of the transfer function for projectors and so will lose some detail. I think this is also true in real life. Go out on a very bright day with clouds in the distance directly lit by the Sun and I think you will not be able to make out much detail due to how bright the clouds are.

So I have to say I do not think the clouds are over exposed. We are checking this in the the lab to see if these can be improved.

Jim Peterson
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post #4714 of 4894 Old 06-05-2019, 01:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
First, thanks for the report. We will look into these further, but I checked these on my Pro/RS4500 to see what is going on.



00:18: The Sunburst is very bright. I do not see what I would call "clipping." I checked the max brightness of the scene and the internal "MaxCLL" calculated by the Pro for the scene looks good and is a bit higher than the brightest pixels (which are near white and so MaxY is larger than MaxCLL). There are some significant transitions in the Sunburst. The center of the burst is in the 3000 nit range. Where it transitions to what I would call the start of the corona is about 650 nits. If you have a 100 nit projector this range *must* be compressed. While the Pro output is not clipping, the input to output transfer function slope is very shallow for the Sunburst center to corona. But it is not "Clipping" IMO.



If you have a projector with a limited internal bit depth you might see clipping. The Sony 5000 internally truncates to 8-bits as the data enters the "DCI projector" portion of the light engine. This limited bit depth could show some clipping in this scene (and others). If you have such a projector try setting the Pro output dither to 8-bit and see if this reduces the clipping you are seeing. The dither should help with clipping if a projector truncates to 8-bits internal because the Pro will have adapted the data for an 8-bit projector pipeline.



01:13: I do see clipping in the red on the right shoulder of the person's protective suit. I checked the data and looks to be a fully saturated red. So this is at the full Rec 2020 Gamut extent for red and while the RS4500 is a great projector it cannot show a fully saturated Rec 2020 red and so will clip at its Gamut limit. I checked the calculated MaxCLL for the scene and it again looks good. To see if the issue is Dynamic Tone Mapping, or just projector color clipping, I would need a display that can show a fully saturated Rec 2020 red. I suspect the clipping is the projector Gamut limitation and not a DTM limitation. Can't be sure though.



Is your projector capable of a fully saturated Rec 2020 red? I don't know of any consumer projectors or displays that can, but if someone has one they can check this scene and let us know the results.



05:23 and 05:56: The clouds do look brighter than in Static Tone Mapping (STM) mode. I looked at the levels and the clouds are in the 1000 to 1500 nit range, and other than the light at the lower right (for 05:23) the rest of the scenes are below 700 nits with most under 500 nits, and the ocean is about 200 nits (at 05:23). So the clouds *should* be very bright and IMO are correct in the DTM and too dark with STM. That said we are already looking into the brightness of clouds in another scene in the Meg (about 58:05, MEG's fin in water) to see if we can get more detail. However, given how bright the clouds are they are in the "shallow slope" portion of the transfer function for projectors and so will lose some detail. I think this is also true in real life. Go out on a very bright day with clouds in the distance directly lit by the Sun and I think you will not be able to make out much detail due to how bright the clouds are.



So I have to say I do not think the clouds are over exposed. We are checking this in the the lab to see if these can be improved.


I check the 01:13 scene with DTM On and OFF in this scene as u said and I am not expert like u jim the pipe in the back ground not show



and when I turn OFF the DTM it become more visible



Hope this will help to improve

Thx


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post #4715 of 4894 Old 06-05-2019, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jabz View Post
Ok, can you advise which specific Tributaries series of cables? They have 5 different UHD types.
For 2 to 3 meter passive HDMI I recommend the Tributaries UHDP. Note that the Ethereal Velox, and the Monoprice 18 GHz certified are also very good, but I like the mechanical design of the UHDP better.

For long runs I recommend the Tributaries UHDT "Titan" active cable (but with a 3 Amp power cube rather than the 1 Amp provided). The RUIPRO (on USA amazon.com) also work well. We have one or two cases where one of these worked and the other didn't. So there is no sure thing as far as HDMI is concerned.

======

We have perhaps two reports of people having issues with 042119. Since this has a new FPGA load it is possible some FPGA's might not "like" the FPGA load for 042119. The FPGA synthesis and timing tools are good but not perfect and from our experience they can say the FPGA load meets timing but there might be one to two FPGA's in the field that "disagree."

To see if this the case for your system you can revert to an earlier release with a different FPGA load. Look for a release before the note says the release will take "about 5 minutes" to update. If a release uses the same FPGA as the previous release the time will say about a minute. If the release has a new FPGA then it will say "about 5 minutes."

NOTE: If you have an issue with 042119, I think it is more likely to be a HDMI cable needing to be replaced with a better cable. Each FPGA load will vary the output very slightly. Still within spec but ever so slightly different. If this minor difference causes an issue then as I like to say "you fell of the HDMI cliff." No way to know which without testing.

Also, sometimes a cable will get bumped during an update and cause random issues. I have helped a number of people restore function in their system just by having them unplug and re-plug each end of every HDMI cable five times (after removing wall power). In fact I just had this happen in our Lumagen Demo Theater. One plug was out by about 1/16 of an inch. I had even felt the connectors to make sure they were inserted but one was not and I initially missed it. I pushed the plug into the Radiance Pro the rest of the way and now everything is working again.
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post #4716 of 4894 Old 06-05-2019, 02:09 AM
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Thank you for your post, Jim!
I would have reported this via mail. But as I didn't get a reply to my previous report for Magnificent Seven, I think my address is blocked (again) or the mail got lost somehow.
I will try to get some actual pictures in the next days. Hopefully I can capture the issues, which isn't always easy with HDR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
First, thanks for the report. We will look into these further, but I checked these on my Pro/RS4500 to see what is going on.

00:18: The Sunburst is very bright. I do not see what I would call "clipping." I checked the max brightness of the scene and the internal "MaxCLL" calculated by the Pro for the scene looks good and is a bit higher than the brightest pixels (which are near white and so MaxY is larger than MaxCLL). There are some significant transitions in the Sunburst. The center of the burst is in the 3000 nit range. Where it transitions to what I would call the start of the corona is about 650 nits. If you have a 100 nit projector this range *must* be compressed. While the Pro output is not clipping, the input to output transfer function slope is very shallow for the Sunburst center to corona. But it is not "Clipping" IMO.

If you have a projector with a limited internal bit depth you might see clipping. The Sony 5000 internally truncates to 8-bits as the data enters the "DCI projector" portion of the light engine. This limited bit depth could show some clipping in this scene (and others). If you have such a projector try setting the Pro output dither to 8-bit and see if this reduces the clipping you are seeing. The dither should help with clipping if a projector truncates to 8-bits internal because the Pro will have adapted the data for an 8-bit projector pipeline.
It is not the sunburst or corona, that I am concerned about in this scene. It is the loss of detail in the lower part of the image. I can't distinguish the 'crystals' from the ground or the sunburst anymore.
I would think that my JVC NX9/RS3000 would be capable of processing more than 8bit internally.

Quote:
01:13: I do see clipping in the red on the right shoulder of the person's protective suit. I checked the data and looks to be a fully saturated red. So this is at the full Rec 2020 Gamut extent for red and while the RS4500 is a great projector it cannot show a fully saturated Rec 2020 red and so will clip at its Gamut limit. I checked the calculated MaxCLL for the scene and it again looks good. To see if the issue is Dynamic Tone Mapping, or just projector color clipping, I would need a display that can show a fully saturated Rec 2020 red. I suspect the clipping is the projector Gamut limitation and not a DTM limitation. Can't be sure though.

Is your projector capable of a fully saturated Rec 2020 red? I don't know of any consumer projectors or displays that can, but if someone has one they can check this scene and let us know the results.
When I raise Display Max Light, I can see cables or pipes appearing in the red background on the left.
The NX9 is not capable of displaying full saturated BT.2020 red. It mostly reaches DCI-P3.

Quote:
05:23 and 05:56: The clouds do look brighter than in Static Tone Mapping (STM) mode. I looked at the levels and the clouds are in the 1000 to 1500 nit range, and other than the light at the lower right (for 05:23) the rest of the scenes are below 700 nits with most under 500 nits, and the ocean is about 200 nits (at 05:23). So the clouds *should* be very bright and IMO are correct in the DTM and too dark with STM. That said we are already looking into the brightness of clouds in another scene in the Meg (about 58:05, MEG's fin in water) to see if we can get more detail. However, given how bright the clouds are they are in the "shallow slope" portion of the transfer function for projectors and so will lose some detail. I think this is also true in real life. Go out on a very bright day with clouds in the distance directly lit by the Sun and I think you will not be able to make out much detail due to how bright the clouds are.

So I have to say I do not think the clouds are over exposed. We are checking this in the the lab to see if these can be improved.
I feel the image looks too flat in these scenes. Raising Display Max Light gives the ocean a more pronounced appearance and also helps to give the image more depth.
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Projection: JVC DLA-NX9
VP/Calibration: Lumagen Radiance Pro, LightSpace CMS, x-rite i1 Pro 2, x-rite i1 Display 3

Last edited by KarlKlammer; 06-05-2019 at 02:19 AM.
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post #4717 of 4894 Old 06-05-2019, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jabz View Post
Ok, can you advise which specific Tributaries series of cables? They have 5 different UHD types.
The 2m cables are Tributaries UHD Pro's.
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post #4718 of 4894 Old 06-05-2019, 04:46 AM
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You could probably get away with 480p with that distance and screen size.
Oops !!
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post #4719 of 4894 Old 06-05-2019, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post
Maybe these scenes for setting up would be of use? Please forgive the formatting issues.

1) Mad Max Fury Road™ (2015) Max Mon = 4000, MaxCLL = 9919
▪ Examples of bright (specular) highlights in an overall low-APL scene.
• Chapter 03 / 0:28:37 Sand Storm: Fireball in the upper left; lightning in the upper right.
▪ Examples of extremely bright (specular) highlights.
• Chapter 03 / 0:28:29 Sand Storm: Car exploding in the air.
• Chapter 03 / 0:28:37 Sand Storm: Fireball in the upper left; lightning in the upper right.
• Chapter 03 / 0:38:13 Muzzle flash; a couple pixels in the 4400 Nit range.
• Chapter 11 / 1:46.59 Sunset in the desert.

2) The Martian™ (2015) Max Mon = 1100, MaxCLL = 0
▪ Examples of bright (specular) highlights in an overall low-APL scene.
• Chapter 02 / 0:33:35 Storm approaching.
• Chapter 21 / 1:19:08 Large setting sun with character sitting on a rock.
• Chapter 24 / 1:37:35 Sun peeking around dark mountains.

3) The Magnificent 7™ (2016) Max Mon = ????, MaxCLL = ????
▪ Examples of bright (specular) highlights in an overall low-APL scene.
• Chapter 3 / 0:12:01 Horseback rider cresting hill with sun in the background.
• MaxCLL = 1113, MaxY = 1752
• Chapter 03 / 0:16:00 Dimly lit bar with bright windows & doorway in the background.

4) Blade Runner 2049 (2018) Max Mon = ????, MaxCLL = 480
▪ A very dark movie with a MaxCLL = 480 Nits (Disc metadata incorrectly reports 182 Nits)
Thanks. I very much appreciate the effort to give the specifics. I will check these out.
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post #4720 of 4894 Old 06-05-2019, 06:22 AM
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As I say the 424x is 18G limited in both directions. I think the only way you could get to 8k out from 4k source in those units would be if the output card itself had a scaler on board.

In any case, as others have pointed out I can't see this being of much importance any time soon if ever, at almost any seating distance to consider that there will be much difference observable in different 4k to 8k scalers is I think going to be something only for those with Superman's eyesight...

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post #4721 of 4894 Old 06-05-2019, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by sjschaff View Post
Anyone out there with an Nvidia Shield TV, who is attempting to play source files that are HDR, through the Lumagen?

When I try to do so, I find that the advanced HDMI settings in the Nvidia, though they present an option for YUV 422 12-bit Rec. 709, never let me "keep" this setting. It reverts back to YUV 422 8-bit Rec. 709. Using OK button on the Lumagen remote shows that the source colorspace and Lumagen are different. Input shows RGB-HDR709 and output 422-SDR2020. By the way, this is for using CMS1 for all HDR source. Also, not using Auto-Convert for either CMS0 or CMS1.

The only way I can get this option in the Nvidia to "stick" is to alter the Lumagen Pro's input setting for the Nvidia. The specific setting is Video Limit. Changing from 9ghz or 9ghz Max to 1080p has the Lumagen working with the Nvidia to allow a set of options, which includes the color space I tried to pick. When I now pick the YUV 422 12-bit Rec. 709 the Nvidia suddenly asks if I want to keep it. I say yes, and now find that when I return to the advanced HDMI settings the "current" setting has been updated to reflect the change. Lumagen OK button now shows for input 422-HDR2020 and output 422-SDR2020 while playing HDR source. So, this all seems to suggest some sort of limitation or disagreement in the Nvidia with the Lumagen or configuration problem on my part in either/both devices.

By the way, I have enabled colorimetry in the Nvidia via the developer options, as described in prior posts for Nvidia Shield for colorspace switching.

Also, if anyone is using the 18 ghz cards in the Lumagen along with the Shield does this combination allow for 422 12-bit Rec 709 to work on the Nvidia?



Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post
I have a shield and 18 GHz input and output cards, so I can provide some feedback. However, I am confused why you are attempting to use YUV 422 12-bit Rec. 709 for HDR files (which I assume are 4K HDR). Did you mean to type "SDR files" instead of "HDR files"?

Mark
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjschaff View Post
I only have 9ghz cards in my Lumagen Pro. Kris Deering came by a few months ago to calibrate my Lumagen Pro to JVC RS500 setup. I will caution that we did not work on the Nvidia source at all. Just used UHD discs on my Panasonic 900 and previous JVC settings performed by another calibrator.

The reason for the particular setting is that I received this information from Kris. The recommendations came from a friend of his, as settings to use for the Nvidia Shield.

Here are the full details I received:

In the NVidia Shield Settings Menu:
1) Set the default GUI resolution: Go to - Settings > Display and Sound > Resolution > Set to 4K 59.940 Hz. This was the setting on my Shield TV.
2) Set the default color space and resolution: Go to - Settings > Display and Sound > Advanced Settings > HDMI Settings > Choose 3840x2160 59.940 Hz YUV 422 12-bit Rec 709. When I changed this, there was an HDMI sync and a message asking if wanted to keep this setting. My Shield was set to 3840x2160 59.940 Hz YUV 422 12-bit Rec 2020, which was also the recommended setting.
3) Next enable developers options: Go to - Settings > About > Build > Click seven times on build to become a developer (you will see a toast which will say you are now a developer).
4) Set color space switching: Go to - Settings > Developer Options > Colorimetry (set toggle to ON) > restart the NVidia Shield for changes to take effect. Colorimetry is under “HDMI” and is pretty far down the menu, there are a lot of options before it.
5) Restart the NVidia Shield. I had already completed this process when I read about the option.

In The Kodi Settings Menu:
1) Set Kodi to “Expert” mode: Go to - Settings > System > Click on the gear icon at the bottom of the list until it shows “Expert.”
2) Set Kodi to resolution switching: Go to - Settings > System > Display > Whitelist and then enable ALL of the resolutions displayed. Click “OK.” I had to install and set up Kodi to point to my Network files (Ugh!), but I took one for the team and then completed both of these steps as well.

Your experience and thoughts on this are appreciated. I can obviously also provide any other Lumagen settings or Nvidia as well, beyond what you see above. My communication with JRP suggests that the Lumagen is configurable to handle most anything and that it may well be a fault with the Nvidia at possibly a hardware level in complying with spec.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjschaff View Post
What are the settings you are using for the Nvidia Shield? Are you using Kodi or another app for playback? When playing an HDR file what does the OK button on the Lumagen indicate?
I made notes above in bold where appropriate. I performed the test last night on my Nvidia Shield TV Pro, and my second display, an HDR-capable LG 55B7A OLED TV. The Lumagen Info showed the following:

For an SDR signal
Input Mode: 3840x2160p Output Mode: 3840x2160p
Input Rate: 59.94Hz-2D Output Rate: 59.94Hz-2D
Input Format: 422-SDR709 Output Format: 422-SDR709 (I have this particular SDR CMS configured to output 422-SDR709)

For an HDR signal
Input Mode: 3840x2160p Output Mode: 3840x2160p
Input Rate: 59.94Hz-2D Output Rate: 59.94Hz-2D
Input Format: 422-HDR2020 Output Format: 422-HDR2020 (I have this particular HDR CMS configured to output 422-HDR2020)

So for HDR, the input format did not honor the Shield TV setting of 3840x2160 59.940 Hz YUV 422 12-bit Rec 709, so I think that aligns with your experience.

As I am typing up the results, I realized I should have confirmed my setting for MENU → Input → Options → HDMI Setup → Type. The options for this parameter are Auto (default), YCbCr 444, YCbCr 422, and RGB. I leave this set to the default of "Auto", unless the source device is not sending YCbCr 422, so I suspect this is set to Auto for this input. I am wondering if yours is set to RGB? Alternatively, could this be a limitation / issue with 9 GHz output with your HDMI cable?

I hope this helps.

Mark
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post #4722 of 4894 Old 06-05-2019, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by jabz View Post
Ok, can you advise which specific Tributaries series of cables? They have 5 different UHD types.
Tributaries purchased: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

RUIPRO purchased: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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post #4723 of 4894 Old 06-05-2019, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
As I say the 424x is 18G limited in both directions. I think the only way you could get to 8k out from 4k source in those units would be if the output card itself had a scaler on board.

In any case, as others have pointed out I can't see this being of much importance any time soon if ever, at almost any seating distance to consider that there will be much difference observable in different 4k to 8k scalers is I think going to be something only for those with Superman's eyesight... [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

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It matters for pixel matching. My favorite feature for all Lumagen products is no ringing scaling. To me it makes little sense to have Radiance does its best to make great 4K images then the TV takes over and molest it to make it 8K.

Flagship models for Samsung, Sony and LG (including Oleds) are 8K already now. In two years, expect middle of the road models to be all 8K as well.

I agree on diminishing returns. I don’t believe 8K is enough returns if any. But if you want a very good display in the near future, it’s likely going to be 8K. Just like you can’t buy a good 1080p anymore as those are budget friendly models only.

Wanted:
HD-VMD Discs
Muse/Hi-Vision Discs - Mint/Complete Only!
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post #4724 of 4894 Old 06-05-2019, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post
I made notes above in bold where appropriate. I performed the test last night on my Nvidia Shield TV Pro, and my second display, an HDR-capable LG 55B7A OLED TV. The Lumagen Info showed the following:

For an SDR signal
Input Mode: 3840x2160p Output Mode: 3840x2160p
Input Rate: 59.94Hz-2D Output Rate: 59.94Hz-2D
Input Format: 422-SDR709 Output Format: 422-SDR709 (I have this particular SDR CMS configured to output 422-SDR709)

For an HDR signal
Input Mode: 3840x2160p Output Mode: 3840x2160p
Input Rate: 59.94Hz-2D Output Rate: 59.94Hz-2D
Input Format: 422-HDR2020 Output Format: 422-HDR2020 (I have this particular HDR CMS configured to output 422-HDR2020)

So for HDR, the input format did not honor the Shield TV setting of 3840x2160 59.940 Hz YUV 422 12-bit Rec 709, so I think that aligns with your experience.

As I am typing up the results, I realized I should have confirmed my setting for MENU → Input → Options → HDMI Setup → Type. The options for this parameter are Auto (default), YCbCr 444, YCbCr 422, and RGB. I leave this set to the default of "Auto", unless the source device is not sending YCbCr 422, so I suspect this is set to Auto for this input. I am wondering if yours is set to RGB? Alternatively, could this be a limitation / issue with 9 GHz output with your HDMI cable?

I hope this helps.

Mark

Thanks. I think you're right about the 9gzh vs. 18ghz since this would appear to be the only hardware difference in our mutual systems. The only other Lumagen setting that I see which may or may not have an affect on things is:
Input...In Configs...4K...4K0...Picture...Colorspace which had been set to Auto. When I changed this to Rec2020 the only result was that the OK button, while playing HDR content, changed to 420 HDR2020 on the input. So, while still keeping the Lumagen's input setting for Video Limit a 9ghz Max, and altering the above Colorspace setting, the resulting OK Format for Input shows 420-HDR2020. But none of this affects my ability to alter the Nvidia's Colorspace setting. And, as expected, switching the SDR to HDR profile on the JVC that had been set up by Kris simply screwed up the color. Obviously oversaturated.


By the way, what display/projector are you currently using? In speaking with Jim Peterson his belief, at least with my current JVC RS500, is that the Lumagen does a far better job of managing output for tone mapping, among other things, so that putting out SDR2020 is best. Finally, I've started the ball rolling on ordering up an 18ghz card for the Lumagen.








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post #4725 of 4894 Old 06-05-2019, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjschaff View Post
Thanks. I think you're right about the 9gzh vs. 18ghz since this would appear to be the only hardware difference in our mutual systems. The only other Lumagen setting that I see which may or may not have an affect on things is:
Input...In Configs...4K...4K0...Picture...Colorspace which had been set to Auto. When I changed this to Rec2020 the only result was that the OK button, while playing HDR content, changed to 420 HDR2020 on the input. So, while still keeping the Lumagen's input setting for Video Limit a 9ghz Max, and altering the above Colorspace setting, the resulting OK Format for Input shows 420-HDR2020. But none of this affects my ability to alter the Nvidia's Colorspace setting. And, as expected, switching the SDR to HDR profile on the JVC that had been set up by Kris simply screwed up the color. Obviously oversaturated.


By the way, what display/projector are you currently using? In speaking with Jim Peterson his belief, at least with my current JVC RS500, is that the Lumagen does a far better job of managing output for tone mapping, among other things, so that putting out SDR2020 is best. Finally, I've started the ball rolling on ordering up an 18ghz card for the Lumagen.






That makes sense that you could only pass 4:2:0, as that is at the 9 GHz limit for 3840 x 2160 resolution:



I am using a JVC RS540 with a 1D & 3D LUT calibration with an SDR2020 output for HDR sources.

I would still like to know from @Kris Deering why the Shield is set to output Rec. 709 vice Rec. 2020.

Mark
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post #4726 of 4894 Old 06-05-2019, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post
That makes sense that you could only pass 4:2:0, as that is at the 9 GHz limit for 3840 x 2160 resolution:



I am using a JVC RS540 with a 1D & 3D LUT calibration with an SDR2020 output for HDR sources.

I would still like to know from @Kris Deering why the Shield is set to output Rec. 709 vice Rec. 2020.

Mark
As Steve already mentioned, I did NOT setup the Shield. I told Steve that I have very limited experience with the Shield and that every time I have worked with one it has been nothing but problems due to the Shield's main setup giving you ZERO ability to just set a native output. I referred his questions to someone else that has a Shield that said he got it working well with his Radiance and gave him those settings.
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post #4727 of 4894 Old 06-05-2019, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
As Steve already mentioned, I did NOT setup the Shield. I told Steve that I have very limited experience with the Shield and that every time I have worked with one it has been nothing but problems due to the Shield's main setup giving you ZERO ability to just set a native output. I referred his questions to someone else that has a Shield that said he got it working well with his Radiance and gave him those settings.
I have a shield working but yes it has issues with native playback but there are some work arounds.

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post #4728 of 4894 Old 06-05-2019, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by SoulOfUniverse View Post
I have a shield working but yes it has issues with native playback but there are some work arounds.
I really like the Shield/Plex combination but was getting ready to sell it since I can't turn off the upscaling that is does on 1080P material. So you have a work-around? If so, would you mind sharing it?
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post #4729 of 4894 Old 06-05-2019, 04:13 PM
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I really like the Shield/Plex combination but was getting ready to sell it since I can't turn off the upscaling that is does on 1080P material. So you have a work-around? If so, would you mind sharing it?
In regards the uspcale there are no workaround but there is in regards the frame rate switch and in Kodi, I don't use Pleslx. At the moment the most reliable and proven android box is x9s or any ZIDOO box based on the same chip.

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post #4730 of 4894 Old 06-05-2019, 06:52 PM
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Thank you for your post, Jim!
1) It is not the sunburst or corona, that I am concerned about in this scene. It is the loss of detail in the lower part of the image. I can't distinguish the 'crystals' from the ground or the sunburst anymore.

2) I would think that my JVC NX9/RS3000 would be capable of processing more than 8bit internally.

3) When I raise Display Max Light, I can see cables or pipes appearing in the red background on the left.

4) The NX9 is not capable of displaying full saturated BT.2020 red. It mostly reaches DCI-P3.

5) I feel the image looks too flat in these scenes. Raising Display Max Light gives the ocean a more pronounced appearance and also helps to give the image more depth.

It looks like from one of your screen shots you are not on the latest (042119). I suggest you update to 042119 and see if there is any improvement (which there should be).

I should also note that I am on a pre-release of the new Dynamic Tone Mapping algorithm with the improved low to high blend. This could be part of the difference you are seeing. I could revert to 042119 but I am a bit lazy tonight. Maybe later if I get pushed to do it and test again. Just note that what I am evaluating is what will be available soon in a new release.

1) 00:18 of The Meg: I don't feel I have loss in detail for the crystals versus the surface. I took a picture to post here. I hate posting these types of pictures as they seem to never be as good as the image on the screen, but I think this shows that the crystal detail remains. I will put the pictures in another post so they do not propagate with any responses.

2) 01:13 of The Meg: While we are going to look further at this scene, I can see the detail on the wall behind the man on our RS4500. It looks like one might expect looking through a haze. The fact that you cannot see this detail could be a setting issue, or something about your setup. I took a picture of this as well but it did not come out as well as I hoped. Will post it in another post as well. NOTE: I do agree we should look at this scene and hopefully improve it.

05:23 and 05:56 of The Meg: As I mentioned these scenes are very similar to a scene we already have on the "tune up" list. So hopefully we can carve out some more detail.

The internal pipeline precision of the nx9/RS3000 (and nx7/RS2000) and RS4500) are all excellent and exhibit none of the banding issues we have seen in other brands.

3) Sounds like you might need to have a higher setting for Display Max Light if increasing it improves these pictures. The nx9 has a 2100 lumen rating. Depending on your screen size, gain, whether you have an anamorphic lens and if it is perforated/weave, you should likely have a Display Max Light around 400 maybe higher. For our 3000 lumen RS4500 on a 14 foot diagonal 2.4 aspect Stewart Studiotek 130 I have Display Max Light set to 400.

4) So like our RS4500 the fully saturated Rec 2020 red at 1:13 will get clipped and affect the image.

5) Again sounds like you might want to use the higher Display Max Light.

Everything about Dynamic Tone Mapping is a balancing act. We want each scene to be as bright as it can be, but that can mean less detail in highlights. You can use Static Tone mapping which will give you more detail in the sky, but a significantly darker over-all brightness for the movie. Or use DTM and have each scene optimized - which is a trade off of highlight detail (e.g. the clouds), and the brightness of the main portion of the image.

For the clouds at 05:23 and 05:56, I agree that they are too bright and we will see if we can tone them down (pun intended) a bit. We will look at the saturated red haze as 01:30 as well. I really don't see any issues in the scene at 00:18, but we can look into that as well and see if we can improve it.

Thanks again for the feedback. Dynamic Tone Mapping is, as I have said, a work in progress and everyone's feedback can help us continue to improve it.

Pictures in my next post.
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post #4731 of 4894 Old 06-05-2019, 07:06 PM
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Here are photos promised in my previous post. These are The Meg at 00:18 (Sunburst and crystals in ground) and then 01:13 (person in protective suit with red haze). These were taken with my iPhone. They are as downloaded from the phone except I reduced the resolution for posting.

Pictures are not as good as what I see on the screen but I think are helpful.

If anyone needs help setting up HDR Tone Mapping in the Pro, please email our support email or call us (503-574-2211 Option 2).
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post #4732 of 4894 Old 06-05-2019, 10:54 PM
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Thank you again for looking into this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
It looks like from one of your screen shots you are not on the latest (042119). I suggest you update to 042119 and see if there is any improvement (which there should be).

I should also note that I am on a pre-release of the new Dynamic Tone Mapping algorithm with the improved low to high blend. This could be part of the difference you are seeing. I could revert to 042119 but I am a bit lazy tonight. Maybe later if I get pushed to do it and test again. Just note that what I am evaluating is what will be available soon in a new release.
I am on the latest available release (042119). The screen shots were taken from the source to illustrate which scenes I am talking about. There was no Radiance involved.

Quote:
3) Sounds like you might need to have a higher setting for Display Max Light if increasing it improves these pictures. The nx9 has a 2100 lumen rating. Depending on your screen size, gain, whether you have an anamorphic lens and if it is perforated/weave, you should likely have a Display Max Light around 400 maybe higher. For our 3000 lumen RS4500 on a 14 foot diagonal 2.4 aspect Stewart Studiotek 130 I have Display Max Light set to 400.

4) So like our RS4500 the fully saturated Rec 2020 red at 1:13 will get clipped and affect the image.

5) Again sounds like you might want to use the higher Display Max Light.
I currently have 120-130 nits peak luminance available. For Intensity Mapping I set Display Max Light to 700. This in combination with the other parameters worked so well, that I didn't have to adjust a single parameter for a year.

With DTM and titles mastered with 1000 nits there is hardly an issue. So it seems that my settings for Intensity mapping also work for DTM and those titles. But that changes with higher mastered titels.
I can set Display Max Light to 1800, Ratio to 15 and Gamma to -3 for the scenes to look good. But then I'm in trouble in other scenes. You are right. It is a question of balance to find the right parameters. I don't mind to make some compromises for a general good result as I want to watch movies and not stills.
What I don't want is to apply settings by title. If that were the consequence, I would have to go back to Intensity Mapping.

Projection: JVC DLA-NX9
VP/Calibration: Lumagen Radiance Pro, LightSpace CMS, x-rite i1 Pro 2, x-rite i1 Display 3

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post #4733 of 4894 Old 06-06-2019, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
Thanks for the screenshot. This looks OK to me. Which value did you set for Display Max Light?
If I remember it correctly, this is how it looked with 011119. But I have to check it again this weekend to be sure.

With The MEG, I have four examples:

00:18-00:20 -> Clipping
01:13 -> Clipping in red background
05:23 -> overexposed (too bright)
05:56 -> overexposed (too bright)

I have seen these issues in two different installations with different settings (my own and at a friend).

I attached four screenshots from VLC. They are just for illustration and not actually projected. I try to get some projected screenshots this weekend.
I managed to get time to test these scenes last night Karl. here are some screen grabs:

00:18 - I don't get any clipping on that scene as far as I can tell:



01:13:

I do get some clipping on the red back ground when I compare DTM on vs off. @jrp Jim, I'm not sure this is anything to do with gamut saturation, otherwise I assume the extra detail in the background would not be visible when you switch DTM off? Rather I assume it is the gradient of the slope at the top of the DTM curve that is causing the fine gradation in colour between the elements in that background to merge/clip:





05:23 + 05:26 - I see what you are saying here Karl, these scenes do look overly bright and over saturated, but turning DTM off does not resolve any additional detail to me or make a massive amount of difference to the saturation, which leads me to think its inherent in the mastering perhaps - it's hard to tell comparing side by side with your VLC images on a non-HDR monitor, but the biggest difference on the 05:26 image appear to be a big difference in saturation?







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post #4734 of 4894 Old 06-06-2019, 06:36 AM
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Thank you very much for testing it, Wookie!
I have a suspicion that my IM-parameters and the workflow I used to find them are no longer compatible with the way DTM works. I'm pretty sure that was not the case with the earlier releases. So I will take one or two steps back, start from scratch and see, what happens.

But I also don't think that the clipping in the red background is cause by the limited gamut.

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post #4735 of 4894 Old 06-06-2019, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
Thank you very much for testing it, Wookie!
I have a suspicion that my IM-parameters and the workflow I used to find them are no longer compatible with the way DTM works. I'm pretty sure that was not the case with the earlier releases. So I will take one or two steps back, start from scratch and see, what happens.

But I also don't think that the clipping in the red background is cause by the limited gamut.
I've tried measuring DTM on a couple of occasions, and I have yet to come up with a workflow that produces repeatable results. I have up to now assumed it is do with how the scene detection works, that makes it difficult to measure with test patterns. Eventually I gave up.

Its also work bearing in mind that DTM utilises the full dynamic range of the display, so your gamma tracking in the 1D LUT at the top end (90%-100%) can probably result in big differences in highlight clipping like the examples we are looking at. (Not saying yours is incorrect, more that differences between calibrations could result in significant perceived differences in that highlight region - especially when you consider how much input range we are trying to display).

Its one of the reasons I'd like to see Lumagen implement a revised 1D LUT operation with greater resolution than 21 points (Jim mentioned 256 points previously) - I think it will help the accuracy of gradation at both he very top and bottom of the display range where they are most critical.
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post #4736 of 4894 Old 06-06-2019, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by SoulOfUniverse View Post
In regards the uspcale there are no workaround but there is in regards the frame rate switch and in Kodi, I don't use Pleslx. At the moment the most reliable and proven android box is x9s or any ZIDOO box based on the same chip.

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Hmmm...I have an X9S that I haven't really used, so I should get that updated with current firmware and test it again. I just use my OPPO UDP-203 to serve my network files stored on the NAS.

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post #4737 of 4894 Old 06-06-2019, 08:11 AM
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I have a shield working but yes it has issues with native playback but there are some work arounds.

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Seems that those who’ve gotten the Nvidia Shield and Lumagen Pro to work correctly are using 18 GHz input cards on the Lumagen. I am using Kodi on the Nvidia. Would love to know if the workarounds you are aware of might apply with my configuration.

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post #4738 of 4894 Old 06-06-2019, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
I've tried measuring DTM on a couple of occasions, and I have yet to come up with a workflow that produces repeatable results. I have up to now assumed it is do with how the scene detection works, that makes it difficult to measure with test patterns. Eventually I gave up.

Its also work bearing in mind that DTM utilises the full dynamic range of the display, so your gamma tracking in the 1D LUT at the top end (90%-100%) can probably result in big differences in highlight clipping like the examples we are looking at. (Not saying yours is incorrect, more that differences between calibrations could result in significant perceived differences in that highlight region - especially when you consider how much input range we are trying to display).

Its one of the reasons I'd like to see Lumagen implement a revised 1D LUT operation with greater resolution than 21 points (Jim mentioned 256 points previously) - I think it will help the accuracy of gradation at both he very top and bottom of the display range where they are most critical.
My attempts at measuring DTM were repeatable, but not as I liked them to be. The result was always the same, regardless of the input.
With IM it was easy. You were able to use MENU 0533 to force a desired maxCLL, measure and adjust the parameters so that the transfer function worked as you wanted. I did this at 1000 and 4000 nits. And this got me where I wanted to be. I was of the impression that DTM only reuses these parameters in a different way.
I would like to have a way to measure what DTM does to avoid the guessing or uncertainty that things on screen should look like they do.

I haven't spent much time with calibration yet as I currently only have 22 hours on my second unit. So I just applied some LUTs based on QuickProfiles to get started. I'm not cancelling out the possibility that some aspects could be due to the calibration.

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post #4739 of 4894 Old 06-06-2019, 09:27 AM
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Hmmm...I have an X9S that I haven't really used, so I should get that updated with current firmware and test it again. I just use my OPPO UDP-203 to serve my network files stored on the NAS.

Mark
At the moment Zidoo is the only one box I know, which has great quality in playing back ripped 4k HDR movies, especially with the NAS setup. It plays via its own native player, which doesn't have issues in passing through the raw audio, also passing correct colorspace and HDR flag information with resolution and framerate.
The only downside is that you loose all the stat from the native KODI player, since you use ZDMC (fork of Kodi) to playback video files, it doesn't interact with Kodi library stats and you don't have those stats like how many movies you've watched, last saved bookmark and etc. Also ZIDOO boxes are not that fast, I wish they would be faster.
Also I don't like that it doesn't have chromecast inbuilt and its Youtube application doesn't have a capability of 4K playback only 1080p.
That's why I'm looking at alternatives, and NShield is the fastest Android box and yes it is fast, but they still got bugs in regards the native playback (resolution isn't switching natively and is always fixed). Also it has some instability in regards how the remote works, sometimes it doesn't respond at all.
As for Zidoo there been banding issues, but its been resolved with the latest firmware, I really compared the quality playback from OPPO UDP-203 and Zidoo X9S, and I couldn't tell any difference at all. So for the last 9 months I haven't used OPPO at all, all my movie library is served with nas416play 24TB .
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Audio: DENON X3500H -> Dali Zensor 7.1 Dolby Atmos (7, 1, E12F, Vokal, Dolby Alteco C1)
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post #4740 of 4894 Old 06-06-2019, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by sjschaff View Post
Seems that those who’ve gotten the Nvidia Shield and Lumagen Pro to work correctly are using 18 GHz input cards on the Lumagen. I am using Kodi on the Nvidia. Would love to know if the workarounds you are aware of might apply with my configuration.
1st issue I had were audio dropouts, very interminent and usually when I playback 4K SDR2020 from Youtube at @60. In Lumagen in input, HDMI settings I've choosen Audio EDID to select Common and apply to input you have your nshield and all memories.
2nd issue I had were Kodi didn't see all the formats avialable when I select audio passthrough, you have to select Surround Sound (Always) in Nvidia Shield settings.
3rd issue I had framerate didn't match the source file and always been selected the one you select in Nvidia output, in Kodi in Player settings there is an option Always Adjust/Change Framerate on Start/Stop I choose to Always. It will then playback all 4K content with its native framerate and all 1080p content with the framerate being doubled up.
4th issue autoswitch the resolution still I haven't figured out how to resolve, Nvidia claims that they have exposed the API to change resolution and that its up to a software to control that, and they blame Kodi devs for not using it. Kodi with the latest 18.3 Leya RC build still have all resolutions hardcoded.
Hope this helps, at the moment I still prefer my Zidoo instead of Shield, until they resolve all the issues.
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Video: Synology 416Play 24TB / OPPO UDP-203 / Zidoo X9S -> Lumagen Radiance Pro 4444 -> SONY VPL-VW760ES -> Elite Screen 135'' 16:9 1.1 Max White;
Audio: DENON X3500H -> Dali Zensor 7.1 Dolby Atmos (7, 1, E12F, Vokal, Dolby Alteco C1)
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