New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 160 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4771 of 4884 Old 06-13-2019, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post
Isn't HDMI great?

Mark
Just remember, HDMI stands for "Highly Demonic Media Interface" !!
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post #4772 of 4884 Old 06-13-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post
I found this in the manual, by the way.

Setting the mode to “Auto” followed by an output number will get data from the display for its preferred mode. The output number allows choosing one primary output. The command is:
MENU → Output → Custom Modes → [Custom] → Select Mode

I have mine set to Auto1 because I did not look in the manual when I set this. The strange thing is that nothing is connected to output #1 , but now my Shield TV will send 23.98 Hz video when appropriate for the content, and before it was sending 59.94 Hz for all content.

When the Radiance Pro was set to the default Output Mode of Custom0 (1080p60) the only source device that would consistently send 23.98 Hz when appropriate for the content was the OPPO UDP-203.

Isn't HDMI great?

Mark

Tried to use another output option to force the Lumagen to always output 23.98 GHz but it didn't seem to help speed up the EDID synch with my Kodi/Nvidia Shield/Lumagen/JVC chain. For Kodi I can tell it to use 23.98 for its menus and do a similar bit for the Nividia (though its 4k 23.98 GHz as I recall). I'll give this option a try. However, as I think you pointed out, the JVC is the big fly in the ointment for me. Audio always precedes video by 15 seconds or so.


I'll experiment with Custom Modes to see if that holds any key to getting things working better.







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post #4773 of 4884 Old 06-13-2019, 02:41 PM
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Trying to connect my new JVC NX9 to my RadiancePro. When connected to the Lumagen, jvc says no signal. If I connect the projector directly to the source I get signal and picture. If I connect through my old Radiance 2021 iget a signal. I also get a signal if I connect to my Sony 385. But no signal if I have Radiance Pro in the signal path to the NX9. I feel like I am forgetting something simple and basic. Suggestions welcome.
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post #4774 of 4884 Old 06-13-2019, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johannesen View Post
Trying to connect my new JVC NX9 to my RadiancePro. When connected to the Lumagen, jvc says no signal. If I connect the projector directly to the source I get signal and picture. If I connect through my old Radiance 2021 iget a signal. I also get a signal if I connect to my Sony 385. But no signal if I have Radiance Pro in the signal path to the NX9. I feel like I am forgetting something simple and basic. Suggestions welcome.


Look at the video output options on page 9? Of the manual and try some of those commands to force output resolution.

If you changed any settings while playing around you might consider factory default, unless you have some inputs for source devices tweaked.


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post #4775 of 4884 Old 06-13-2019, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post
All good on mine.

Can you provide setup info and more details? Default settings used?


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I have one of the original batch of beta units, so this one is down for the count, factory defaults/old code, etc no luck. Lumagen is working with me to get it replaced.
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post #4776 of 4884 Old 06-13-2019, 05:04 PM
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Regarding RadiancePro and JVC Nx9. I do get a signal if I change hdmi 2 on projector to EDID B, which limits me to 1080p. So it is an hdmi sync issue. I have the output on the Radiance Pro set to auto 2. Tried changing it to Auto 1 and it made no difference. I really haven’t done anything exotic, except for configuring tone mapping. Most settings are at their default values.
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post #4777 of 4884 Old 06-14-2019, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johannesen View Post
Trying to connect my new JVC NX9 to my RadiancePro. When connected to the Lumagen, jvc says no signal. If I connect the projector directly to the source I get signal and picture. If I connect through my old Radiance 2021 iget a signal. I also get a signal if I connect to my Sony 385. But no signal if I have Radiance Pro in the signal path to the NX9. I feel like I am forgetting something simple and basic. Suggestions welcome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post
Look at the video output options on page 9? Of the manual and try some of those commands to force output resolution.

If you changed any settings while playing around you might consider factory default, unless you have some inputs for source devices tweaked.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johannesen View Post
Regarding RadiancePro and JVC Nx9. I do get a signal if I change hdmi 2 on projector to EDID B, which limits me to 1080p. So it is an hdmi sync issue. I have the output on the Radiance Pro set to auto 2. Tried changing it to Auto 1 and it made no difference. I really haven’t done anything exotic, except for configuring tone mapping. Most settings are at their default values.
I am trying to see a pattern without knowing much about your setup. I am suspecting this is an HDMI cable bandwidth issue, because you get a signal when the projector is limited to 1080p EDID. Can you try a different cable? If not, here are some suggestions:

Set the Lumagen to ouptput 1080p (1080p60: MENU 0 2 7 OK) and see if you get a picture with EDID A on the projector. You can make the change via the Radiance Pro OSD while you have a picture using EDID B, save the settings in the Radiance Pro, then switch the EDID in the projector, and if it does not synch, try power-cycling the Radiance Pro.

Assuming you have 18 GHz output cards, you try limiting the output to 9 GHz via the command: Output→Style [choose style]→HDMI Format→Type [change to 9 GHz Auto].

Or you can just call Lumagen support (leave a message if it goes to voice mail): 503-574-2211

Mark
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post #4778 of 4884 Old 06-14-2019, 08:21 AM
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I am using ChromaPure v3 Auto calibration, and I need to re-accomplish the 3D LUT calibration on my LG OLED due to having selected the incorrect color setting on the TV. Is it OK just to re-run (over-write) both the 1D and 3D LUT without "erasing" the existing 1D and 3D LUT calibrations in the Radiance Pro?

When I was figuring out how to get AutoCal working, I made multiple calibration runs, and I was only re-setting the Color Gamut and Grayscale and Gamma settings to the defaults in the CMS menu. Would it be better to copy an unused CMS into the calibrated CMS, thereby really erasing the 1D and 3D LUT calibrations?

Thanks.

Edit: I called Lumagen, and Jim said it is best to reset the 1D and 3D LUT's to their defaults like I have been doing. I will point out that you have to turn on the service mode temporarily to be able to access those settings, but there is a notification about this in the GUI.

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post #4779 of 4884 Old 06-14-2019, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johannesen View Post
Regarding RadiancePro and JVC Nx9. I do get a signal if I change hdmi 2 on projector to EDID B, which limits me to 1080p. So it is an hdmi sync issue. I have the output on the Radiance Pro set to auto 2. Tried changing it to Auto 1 and it made no difference. I really haven’t done anything exotic, except for configuring tone mapping. Most settings are at their default values.


Auto leaves my sync very unstable with the Sony 5000. Maybe try this. It helped fix my sync. If it works you can expand on it to differentiate between 4k24 and 4k60.

In the Output Setup Menu under 2D select All inputs, All Memories, and All input resolutions and then select the output mode as 2160p60 (3840x2160). Then change the “Rate Match” setting to “No.”
Rate Match
Some material may be sourced at 24.00/60.00 Hertz refresh rates instead of the standard 23.98/59.94 Hertz rates. It is desirable to slightly alter the output rate to match the input rate as long as the display works with these different rates. The default setting is 'Off.' Use 'Off' if your display will not accept these rates. If the output mode is set to “Auto”, this setting is ignored and rate matching is used if needed. The command is:
MENU Output Styles [Styles] HDMI Format Rate Match (No, Yes)

Then do a Save.


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post #4780 of 4884 Old 06-14-2019, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Anyone use the lumagen with Directv? How does the upscaling do with that? Watching game 5 of the NBA finals the other night and on some of the commercials you could see fonts vibrating between the interlacing switches and it was quite annoying. Does the lumagen alleviate stuff like this or no?
No color on this from anyone?

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post #4781 of 4884 Old 06-14-2019, 10:07 AM
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No color on this from anyone?


Cant comment directly on DTV but I am very happy with the Xfinity result.


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post #4782 of 4884 Old 06-14-2019, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Anyone use the lumagen with Directv? How does the upscaling do with that? Watching game 5 of the NBA finals the other night and on some of the commercials you could see fonts vibrating between the interlacing switches and it was quite annoying. Does the lumagen alleviate stuff like this or no?
I don't have DirectTV either, but our fairly poor looking A T & T U Verse cable TV does look cleaner / better going through the Lumagen.
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post #4783 of 4884 Old 06-14-2019, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by sjschaff View Post
Got me! I see that the Lumagen shows the input as 23.98 after I start playing, so it's that EDID negotiation that must be occurring. Wonder if this is true of all later JVC projectors.


The latest JVC’s are said to have improved sync times with JVC having acknowledged that it has been a common frustration for their customers. Like you, I have a DLA-RS500U; I’m trying to decipher if a Lumagen processor will improve its picture quality performance and usability (think sync times, they drive me nuts!) enough that I’d be happy keeping the RS500.
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post #4784 of 4884 Old 06-14-2019, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl Maga View Post
The latest JVC’s are said to have improved sync times with JVC having acknowledged that it has been a common frustration for their customers. Like you, I have a DLA-RS500U; I’m trying to decipher if a Lumagen processor will improve its picture quality performance and usability (think sync times, they drive me nuts!) enough that I’d be happy keeping the RS500.

I would contact Lumagen and provide them details on your current hardware configuration. I believe that in the case of the JVC RS500/600 product line the delays are on the projector rather than Lumagen. I've tried all sorts of settings to keep things consistent or force everything on the input side and output side to prevent refreshes of hardware EDID related actions to no avail. I suspect over time JVC will work to minimize the delays. Meanwhile, I just make sure to press pause after I launch a film in Kodi (app on my Nvidia Shield TV) and await the display of the image on from the JVC before playing.



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post #4785 of 4884 Old 06-14-2019, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by sjschaff View Post
I would contact Lumagen and provide them details on your current hardware configuration. I believe that in the case of the JVC RS500/600 product line the delays are on the projector rather than Lumagen. I've tried all sorts of settings to keep things consistent or force everything on the input side and output side to prevent refreshes of hardware EDID related actions to no avail. I suspect over time JVC will work to minimize the delays. Meanwhile, I just make sure to press pause after I launch a film in Kodi (app on my Nvidia Shield TV) and await the display of the image on from the JVC before playing.


Your response is quite useful, though disappointing in that I had hoped a Lumagen could prevent, or minimize, the EDID refreshes. I realize the sync delay is a JVC thing, it’s my only area of serious dissatisfaction with it.
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post #4786 of 4884 Old 06-14-2019, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl Maga View Post
Your response is quite useful, though disappointing in that I had hoped a Lumagen could prevent, or minimize, the EDID refreshes. I realize the sync delay is a JVC thing, it’s my only area of serious dissatisfaction with it.

I know that Lumagen continues to work on identifying and working to mitigate any refreshes that may take place between the Lumangen Pro and associated displays. Suggest you give Jim a call to review your configuration, to find out what might be possible, now and in the future. I know that he and Patrick will have your attention. Unfortunately they can't fix what is already "broken" with JVC projectors.



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post #4787 of 4884 Old 06-14-2019, 10:55 PM
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My RS600 (replaced with a Sony) was frustrating to use, but Jim and company have dealt with these older JVCs and can recommend settings to minimize the dreaded long resync. I’m fairly certain they have spoken directly with JVC about the HDMI input design. The newer JVCs are suppose to be improved.
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post #4788 of 4884 Old 06-14-2019, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Anyone use the lumagen with Directv? How does the upscaling do with that? Watching game 5 of the NBA finals the other night and on some of the commercials you could see fonts vibrating between the interlacing switches and it was quite annoying. Does the lumagen alleviate stuff like this or no?
I use a DirecTV 4k mini (from a Genie 2) with my Lumagen. The Women's World Cup in 4k is obviously a world apart from the regular channels though. Would the issue you are seeing not be baked into the content, seeing as ABC are a 720p channel? Otherwise, upscaling and deinterlacing of the 1080i channels is great. Jim mentioned years ago after the last big deinterlacing update that they would look into doing more in future such as diagonal filtering. I've not really seem more than 1 or 2 split second cases in that time though where I felt the old Gennum in the XD might have down a better job.
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post #4789 of 4884 Old 06-15-2019, 10:14 AM
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I use a DirecTV 4k mini (from a Genie 2) with my Lumagen. The Women's World Cup in 4k is obviously a world apart from the regular channels though. Would the issue you are seeing not be baked into the content, seeing as ABC are a 720p channel? Otherwise, upscaling and deinterlacing of the 1080i channels is great. Jim mentioned years ago after the last big deinterlacing update that they would look into doing more in future such as diagonal filtering. I've not really seem more than 1 or 2 split second cases in that time though where I felt the old Gennum in the XD might have down a better job.
Lumagen and Nx9. Jim helped me out yesterday and I can get a connection if I enter menu code to force 9 ghz. I have ordered new hdmi cable. It occurs to me that I never tried an 18 gig connection before since my Sony 395 did not have 18 gig inputs. Thanks for all the suggestions. I will post tomorrow if the new RUIPRO solves the problem.
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post #4790 of 4884 Old 06-15-2019, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl Maga View Post
The latest JVC’s are said to have improved sync times with JVC having acknowledged that it has been a common frustration for their customers. Like you, I have a DLA-RS500U; I’m trying to decipher if a Lumagen processor will improve its picture quality performance and usability (think sync times, they drive me nuts!) enough that I’d be happy keeping the RS500.
There are settings you can deploy that should almost eliminate the JVC sync time. You do this by:
  • Setting all input resolutions / rates to the same output resolution / rate (eg 4k60)
  • Disabling rate matching
  • Disabling genlock

However there is no free lunch. In doing the above you'll incur some unavoidable motion penalties as 24p content is 3/2 pulldown'd into 60p, and you'll lose the accurate matching of 23.976p vs 24p (and 59.94 and 60p). This bothers some (eg me) more than others; I chose to live with the JVC delay instead. (as it happens, for me it works reasonably well because my automasking is most often in motion during the blanking time - almost seems like it was designed to work like that!

Ultimately it is a JVC problem. For whatever reason they've been unable to achieve sensible HDMI sync times. Even the new units aren't where they should be really - there's no good reason for HDMI syncs to not be possible in a couple of seconds or less.
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post #4791 of 4884 Old 06-15-2019, 04:00 PM
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I have another question regarding DTM.
How do you set your parameters to prevent alternating brightness between two scenes?
This happens several times in Mad Max. Setting the low ratio to -5 and the high ratio to 20 will help a little. But that makes darker mastered movies even darker.
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Projection: JVC DLA-NX9
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post #4792 of 4884 Old 06-15-2019, 06:04 PM
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There are settings you can deploy that should almost eliminate the JVC sync time. You do this by:
  • Setting all input resolutions / rates to the same output resolution / rate (eg 4k60)
  • Disabling rate matching
  • Disabling genlock

However there is no free lunch. In doing the above you'll incur some unavoidable motion penalties as 24p content is 3/2 pulldown'd into 60p, and you'll lose the accurate matching of 23.976p vs 24p (and 59.94 and 60p). This bothers some (eg me) more than others; I chose to live with the JVC delay instead. (as it happens, for me it works reasonably well because my automasking is most often in motion during the blanking time - almost seems like it was designed to work like that!

Ultimately it is a JVC problem. For whatever reason they've been unable to achieve sensible HDMI sync times. Even the new units aren't where they should be really - there's no good reason for HDMI syncs to not be possible in a couple of seconds or less.
Thank you for explaining this. When I still had Charter cable the sync issue rarely occurred outside of source changing. However, upon replacing the Charter DVR with a Roku Ultra and subsequent move to PS Vue, it started to happen frequently: such as when commercials air. I set the output of the Roku to 4K / 60 FPS for all content. This has helped, but a Lumagen would obviously improve picture quality vs the Roku’s video processing.
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post #4793 of 4884 Old 06-15-2019, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
There are settings you can deploy that should almost eliminate the JVC sync time. You do this by:
  • Setting all input resolutions / rates to the same output resolution / rate (eg 4k60)
  • Disabling rate matching
  • Disabling genlock

However there is no free lunch. In doing the above you'll incur some unavoidable motion penalties as 24p content is 3/2 pulldown'd into 60p, and you'll lose the accurate matching of 23.976p vs 24p (and 59.94 and 60p). This bothers some (eg me) more than others; I chose to live with the JVC delay instead. (as it happens, for me it works reasonably well because my automasking is most often in motion during the blanking time - almost seems like it was designed to work like that!

Ultimately it is a JVC problem. For whatever reason they've been unable to achieve sensible HDMI sync times. Even the new units aren't where they should be really - there's no good reason for HDMI syncs to not be possible in a couple of seconds or less.
I am very bothered by the 23.976 stutter if genlock is off, so have it enabled.
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post #4794 of 4884 Old 06-15-2019, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
There are settings you can deploy that should almost eliminate the JVC sync time. You do this by:
  • Setting all input resolutions / rates to the same output resolution / rate (eg 4k60)
  • Disabling rate matching
  • Disabling genlock

However there is no free lunch. In doing the above you'll incur some unavoidable motion penalties as 24p content is 3/2 pulldown'd into 60p, and you'll lose the accurate matching of 23.976p vs 24p (and 59.94 and 60p). This bothers some (eg me) more than others; I chose to live with the JVC delay instead. (as it happens, for me it works reasonably well because my automasking is most often in motion during the blanking time - almost seems like it was designed to work like that!

Ultimately it is a JVC problem. For whatever reason they've been unable to achieve sensible HDMI sync times. Even the new units aren't where they should be really - there's no good reason for HDMI syncs to not be possible in a couple of seconds or less.

I've already had my input/output matching for the Nvidia Shield at the 4k / 23.98
Also, rate matching was set via Menu 0873 (Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 9 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off)
However, I'd had Genlock set to Auto24-Normal. When I turned it off I suddenly find that choosing any file for playback through Kodi/Nvidia the video delay disappears. In fact the video image appears even before the audio.
Thanks for pointing this out.



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post #4795 of 4884 Old 06-16-2019, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by sjschaff View Post
I've already had my input/output matching for the Nvidia Shield at the 4k / 23.98
Also, rate matching was set via Menu 0873 (Set output as 4k50/4k59.94, 9 GHz max, based on input rate, with rate match off)
However, I'd had Genlock set to Auto24-Normal. When I turned it off I suddenly find that choosing any file for playback through Kodi/Nvidia the video delay disappears. In fact the video image appears even before the audio.
Thanks for pointing this out.
Yup, "Genlock" incurs some delay as it has to sync up the "flywheel" (PLL) attached to the video output clock to the input clock to avoid dropped / duplicate frames.
Genlock Normal and Fast vary in how aggressively they attack the flywheel (braking / accelerating it). Once the clock is considered valid the display then has to be made to re sync to it.

I'm surprised by how much content there is now in 24p (vs 23.976p) - I keep finding it on Netflix. Without a player that correctly supports 24p out (and rate matching on) you're doomed to a dropped frame every 41s and lipsync that cycles on a 0-1 frame gap. Once you solve that you then need genlock mode to avoid the player and Lumagen clock drifting and also causing dropped or duplicate frames.
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Last edited by bobof; 06-16-2019 at 06:28 AM.
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post #4796 of 4884 Old 06-16-2019, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Yup, "Genlock" incurs some delay as it has to sync up the "flywheel" (PLL) attached to the video output clock to the input clock to avoid dropped / duplicate frames.
Genlock Normal and Fast vary in how aggressively they attack the flywheel (braking / accelerating it). Once the clock is considered valid the display then has to be made to re sync to it.

I'm surprised by how much content there is now in 24p (vs 23.976p) - I keep finding it on Netflix. Without a player that correctly supports 24p out (and rate matching on) you're doomed to a dropped frame every 41s and lipsync that cycles on a 0-1 frame gap. Once you solve that you then need genlock mode to avoid the player and Lumagen clock drifting and also causing dropped or duplicate frames.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. At least for the Kodi/Nvidia Shield it seems that the firmware updates providing the Video settings for Adjust Display Refresh Rate to match video and Sync Playback to the Display work to alleviate the problem for 24p. I do, from time to time, run into jerky video on some content. Not sure the cause. Don't know of any settings in the Nvidia or Lumagen Pro to get past this.




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post #4797 of 4884 Old 06-16-2019, 09:36 AM
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Thanks for the detailed explanation. At least for the Kodi/Nvidia Shield it seems that the firmware updates providing the Video settings for Adjust Display Refresh Rate to match video and Sync Playback to the Display work to alleviate the problem for 24p. I do, from time to time, run into jerky video on some content. Not sure the cause. Don't know of any settings in the Nvidia or Lumagen Pro to get past this.


It's simple enough, you have to back out all the settings that stop you seeing the JVC black screens . There isn't any magic, you either abuse the frame rates and put up with the jerky playback or put up with the sync delays and have video that doesn't get jerky.

The best answer would be a display that doesn't get such a large penalty from framerate switching so you could have genlock and framerate matching on without being sat in the dark for 10-15s at a time. It's all compromises unfortunately.

Edit: one mitigation strategy would be to have a memory on the Lumagen that "did the right thing" with respect to genlock and framerate matching, and switch to that memory only when you have an obvious issue (to see if it resolves it for you). That might be an almost best of both worlds.
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post #4798 of 4884 Old 06-16-2019, 10:15 AM
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I have another question regarding DTM.
How do you set your parameters to prevent alternating brightness between two scenes?
This happens several times in Mad Max. Setting the low ratio to -5 and the high ratio to 20 will help a little. But that makes darker mastered movies even darker.
I'm not sure there is much you can do about it by parameter fiddling with the current options, I think most of the changes would have to come from Lumagen as the scene detection parameters aren't exposed (not that I'm arguing for them to be! See previous rants... lol)

They made some big improvements on the back of the trucks fight scenes from around 1hr43 onwards where the lighting differences were very obvious across some of the scene angle cuts. It's still not perfect - there are a couple of scenes in there that cause a notable difference in the sky - but it is much better than the first release.

I see it often in Mad Max, but not so much in other movies. I don't know if that is because Mad Max is particularly bad for it, or whether it is because when I'm watching Mad Max it is usually for this kind of thing rather than actually watching the movie...! . I think it might have something to do though with Mad Max having a lot of very bright skys which make it very obvious when it happens.
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post #4799 of 4884 Old 06-16-2019, 01:48 PM
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That's what I secretly thought, to be honest.
But I wanted to ask anyway, just to be sure that this is not a product of my own inability to set it up correctly.

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post #4800 of 4884 Old 06-17-2019, 01:38 PM
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New NX 9 and Radiance Pro

RUIPRO cable came yesterday and connectivity working fine, even reporting out on info screen #2 that projector has 18 gig input. Thanks again for all the earlier responses.
Now I have a new question. Since I am busy twiddling with settings on my new toy, I pulled up test patterns on the Radiance Pro while DTM was engaged. On the contrast pattern and the white ramp, there were no bars, it was totally blown out on white level. No adjustment of contrast or iris could get me any of the bars on the pattern. I reconnected my Sony 385 and saw the same behavior. Do I have my tone mapping grossly misconfigured or am I demonstrating my ignorance in expecting the contrast test patterns to work while tone mapping is engaged?
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