New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 167 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4981 of 8045 Old 08-01-2019, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Yes, Auto aspect works great in releases from the last 6 months (a couple of caveats I'll cover later)
Bobof,

I am a newbie to the Lumagen Video Processor but I have been thinking about adding something like a lumagen or MadVR Envy? when available for my JVC RS3000 Home Theater.

It would primarily be used to help with two issues. 1) Improved 4k upscaling of HD Satellite TV. and 2) Auto-tone mapping of DV and HDR10 content before sending to the RS3000.

What level is Lumagen at with auto-tone mapping DV and HDR10 signals? Do they support dynamic frame by frame tone mapping similar to DV or are they still doing static tone mapping like JVC? Does it require correct metadata to work or will it tone map based on analysis of incoming frame data?

Also is the 4k upscaling superior to JVC's built in upscaling and so they handle motion well?

I am sure you guys have discussed it somewhere in this thread but with 167+ pages it is difficult to find the current state of the hardware.

Thanks
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post #4982 of 8045 Old 08-01-2019, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
Bobof,

I am a newbie to the Lumagen Video Processor but I have been thinking about adding something like a lumagen or MadVR Envy? when available for my JVC RS3000 Home Theater.

It would primarily be used to help with two issues. 1) Improved 4k upscaling of HD Satellite TV. and 2) Auto-tone mapping of DV and HDR10 content before sending to the RS3000.

What level is Lumagen at with auto-tone mapping DV and HDR10 signals? Do they support dynamic frame by frame tone mapping similar to DV or are they still doing static tone mapping like JVC? Does it require correct metadata to work or will it tone map based on analysis of incoming frame data?

Also is the 4k upscaling superior to JVC's built in upscaling and so they handle motion well?

I am sure you guys have discussed it somewhere in this thread but with 167+ pages it is difficult to find the current state of the hardware.

Thanks
HDR10 tone mapping on the Lumagen is frame by frame analysis with the tone map being adjust based on that analysis. The methods are proprietary to Lumagen, but there is clearly some advanced scene detection going on to work out when and where to adjust the tone map to get the most from the image without making the adjustments visible in operation. Scene detection is hard - I was very sceptical that it could ever really work very well, and initial releases of all DTM from Lumagen and MadVR have been tripped up occasionally by various bits of content.

So far I haven't seen a single issue with the most recent version of the Lumagen tone mapping, and that is no mean feat. I don't really follow MadVR development as to date the lack of ability to tone map HDMI sources has made it a non-starter, others might better know how the state of the art there behaves. Last time I looked it seemed a bit disjointed with a helper app to assist with the tone mapping adjustment - not sure if this is still the case, though I imagine that will get sorted for the Envy release.

Re: metadata; on the Lumagen there is a control which acts as a "metadata volume control" - it controls how much notice is paid to the metadata. So DTM can work well even in the face of bogus or missing metadata.

No-one is tone mapping DV because Dolby won't license to video processors. It is a little bit of a shame as the curated DV metadata could add to the picture quality, though it is hard to see how the current implementation could get that much better!

I don't personally use 1080p upscaling much (most content 4K, or ends up scaled unavoidably by player to 4K) , I'm sure others are better qualified to discuss relative merits of MadVR vs Lumagen scaling. But do use the scaling engine to zoom the image sometimes and think it work really well without scaling artefacts.

At the risk of stating the obvious, you can get the Lumagen now with well understood performance . I don't think anyone (who's talking!) knows how long we might be waiting for the Envy to hit the stores. So far I've enjoyed real dynamic tone mapping for all my sources already for the last 3 months... and the previous Intensity Mapping incarnation for about a year before that. Happy days.

Last edited by bobof; 08-01-2019 at 03:17 PM.
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post #4983 of 8045 Old 08-01-2019, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
HDR10 tone mapping on the Lumagen is frame by frame analysis with the tone map being adjust based on that analysis. The methods are proprietary to Lumagen, but there is clearly some advanced scene detection going on to work out when and where to adjust the tone map to get the most from the image without making the adjustments visible in operation. Scene detection is hard - I was very sceptical that it could ever really work very well, and initial releases of all DTM from Lumagen and MadVR have been tripped up by various bits of content.

So far I haven't seen a single issue with the most recent version of the Lumagen tone mapping, and that is no mean feat. I don't really follow MadVR development as to date the lack of ability to tone map HDMI sources has made it a non-starter, others might better know how the state of the art there behaves. Last time I looked it seemed a bit disjointed with a helper app to assist with the tone mapping adjustment - not sure if this is still the case, though I imagine that will get sorted for the Envy release.

Re: metadata; on the Lumagen there is a control which acts as a "metadata volume control" - it controls how much notice is paid to the metadata. So DTM can work well even in the face of bogus or missing metadata.

No-one is tone mapping DV because Dolby won't license to video processors. It is a little bit of a shame as the curated DV could add to the picture quality, though it is hard to see how the current implementation could get that much better!

I don't personally use 1080p upscaling much (most content 4K, or ends up scaled unavoidably by player to 4K) , I'm sure others are better qualified to discuss relative merits of MadVR vs Lumagen scaling. But do use the scaling engine to zoom the image sometimes and think it work really well without scaling artefacts.

At the risk of stating the obvious, you can get the Lumagen now with well understood performance . I don't think anyone (who's talking!) knows how long we might be waiting for the Envy to hit the stores. So far I've enjoyed real dynamic tone mapping for all my sources already for the last 3 months... and the previous Intensity Mapping incarnation for about a year before that. Happy days.
Thank you for the summation, it helped a lot. I was not a MadVR user. I had just heard that MadVR was trying to come out with an inline HDMI solution called MadVR Envy but I really don't want to wait around for an unknown product either. Craig of AVScience raves about his RS4500 with the Lumagen for tone mapping and I wasn't sure what he was talking about. I appreciate the info.
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post #4984 of 8045 Old 08-01-2019, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
Thank you for the summation, it helped a lot. I was not a MadVR user. I had just heard that MadVR was trying to come out with an inline HDMI solution called MadVR Envy but I really don't want to wait around for an unknown product either. Craig of AVScience raves about his RS4500 with the Lumagen for tone mapping and I wasn't sure what he was talking about. I appreciate the info.
Bobof pretty much said it all. Cable TV looks much better through the Lumagen in my opinion - at least lackluster AT & T U Verse. I don't really see any difference motion wise. But dynamic tone mapping just took a leap forward and looks outstanding now ( I thought it looked great before ). The Radiance Pro really takes 4K HDR to another level. That said, I'm curious what Kris Deering can do to make it look even better when he gets here in 2 weeks. To steal a quote from The Princess Bride - can it actually look even better ? Inconceivable !
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post #4985 of 8045 Old 08-01-2019, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...ncepro_updates

Beta 072019
HDR parameter changes (.ie Ratio, Shape, etc) were needlessly slow to change when being modified.
Removed HDR Min Offset from menu.
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware
You can't snooze around here or you'll miss a firmware update !
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post #4986 of 8045 Old 08-01-2019, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Can the Lumagen Auto-detect aspect and trigger various screen aspects or how does it work? I have an automask screen (Stewart) and use Crestron.
I would say that if the source is a Strato it likely can be done. The Strato sends out events when things change and your control system can capture this and make changes accordingly. Just mentioned this in the Strato thread....
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post #4987 of 8045 Old 08-01-2019, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jrp View Post
First: The next release is likely going to be posted by Monday. We have a candidate release out to a few people. This may be the public release, or if we get an even better FPGA synthesis we might swap in the better FPGA.

Now on to the fun stuff:

We believe this release significantly raises the bar on Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM). We hope you agree. I saw a post from Kris Deering where he had kind words to say about the improvements. That post was actually based on a few internal releases ago. That release had most of the improvements, but we have made further improvements since then. Many thanks to Jon Thompson, Kris Deering, and Craig Rounds who have been instrumental in helping us find and evaluate critical scenes.

We definitely stepped on a "slippery slope" on this release. Every step of the way it was "we should do this improvement" but that then lead to "if we do that improvement, we should do this other improvement" and so on. We plan on increasing precision throughout the pipeline soon, but while we were working on the DTM we decided to do the pipeline precision enhancement work for the linear Gamma portion, where DTM is done. This turned into a major FPGA code rewrite. However this has given us a huge boost in precision near black, and this shows as a improved image detail near black.

This release has the new and improved blend algorithm between the low and high control curves. This alone significantly improved the DTM image.

We also significantly improved the precision of the tone mapping table generation code. So not only is the quality and precision of the blend between the control curves better, but the control curves themselves are improved.

We have also addressed all the scenes people sent us to review. On the couple that were a bit over-saturated Patrick worked his usual magic and was able to improve the over-saturated pixels without having to reduce the average light output for other portions of the scenes.

The detail near black is pretty awesome – and it was already excellent before. And the highly saturated colors in some scenes now also look excellent. Of course, my comments on quality improvements are my opinion. Let us know what you think once you have had a chance to evaluate this new release.

======

People often ask me how to set up tone mapping and specifically DTM. To make sure this is as simple as possible, all my evaluation and tuning for this DTM release was done with default HDR parameters. The only adjustment I made was to set the CMS1 Display Max Light to the appropriate value. So, while I know the tweaks out there will want to play with settings, you get great DTM performance with the factory settings.

Part of the tone mapping setup question is how to set CMS1->HDR Mapping->Display Max. This still varies based on personal preference, but for projectors, I have arrived at setting it at measured nits times 4-ish. For example with the Lumagen Demo Theater RS4500 at medium laser, on a 14 foot diagonal 2.40 aspect Stewart Studiotek 130, I get 85 nits and have the Display Max Light set to 350.

Note that measured nits should be measured as 1% of the screen area using a probe with 1 degree of arc. This is the professional way to measure. If you calculate 1% of your screen area, and even if your probe is not 1 degree, you should get a pretty good approximation. Unfortunately this does mean using a professional quality probe such as the Colorimetry Research CR-100 (what I use) or the Kline K10A.

=====

I recently updated the Radiance Pro setup slide set, and I just completed a new revision of the Radiance Pro manual. I have attached copies of these to this post. We should have the new manual revision posted on the Lumagen website by early next week.
Hi Jim,

I would like to give you a big Thanks!

This is for continuing to support your products with after sales / tech support as well as continually improving and updating, such as with the most recent update for DTM. I was already impressed with the former, when I had to email for help with synch issues early on and got such prompt and helpful replies from you. With the DTM update - WOW..
When I first decided to jump on and purchase a Radiance Pro around 15 months ago, I really did not expect the level of commitment you have provided with Lumagen. Usually with other 'high-end' AV gear, I would be expecting to look at another purchase / upgrade to keep up with 'improvements'. I did go from a Sony 885ES over to a 995ES within a year and lost a significant amount of $$ But on the other hand, my Radiance Pro 15 months later, has had improvements on improvements.
The expectation may be that once someone pays higher $$$ for a product, you should see the support but this is often not the case.
So in short, I really appreciate what you are doing to make the Radiance Pro such an awesome device and an 'investment' or at least a highly positive cost value proposition. THANK YOU!
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post #4988 of 8045 Old 08-01-2019, 10:07 PM
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You can't snooze around here or you'll miss a firmware update !



Far out I just got my HTPC to behave last night and start seeing the Lumagen properly and ended the night feeling good in the thought I finally got the update... D'oh!
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post #4989 of 8045 Old 08-01-2019, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Can the Lumagen Auto-detect aspect and trigger various screen aspects or how does it work? I have an automask screen (Stewart) and use Crestron.
The Radiance Pro can auto-detect the input aspect and then auto-report the input and output information to a control system like the Crestron. This information is in the RS232 Tech Tip number 11 on the Lumagen website support/manuals page. This information for the "Full v2" status report information is shown below:

Radiance Pro only. Full information query (“Full v2” for unsolicited status output): Response = "!I22,M,RRR,VVVV,D,X,AAA,SSS,Y,T, WWWW,C,B,PPP,QQQQ,ZZZ,E,F,G,H":
M= Input status (0 = no source, 1 = active video, 2 = internal pattern)
RRR= Source vertical rate (e.g. 059 for 59.94, 060 for 60.00)
VVVV= Source vertical resolution (e.g. 1080 for 1080p)
D= 3D mode (0,1,2,4,8)
X= Input config number for current input resolution
AAA = Output aspect (e.g. 1.78 for 16:9)
SSS = Source aspect (e.g. 235 for 2.35)
Y= NLS active (‘-‘ for normal, 'N' for NLS)
T= 3D output mode (0,1,2,4,8)
WWWW= Output on. 16 bit hex, b0 to 15 for out 1 to 16. Bit=1 if on
C= Output CMS selected (0 to 7)
B= Output style selected (0 to 7)
PPP= Output vertical rate, (e.g. 059 for 59.94, 060 for 60.00)
QQQQ= Output vertical res (e.g. 1080 for 1080p)
ZZZ= Output aspect (e.g. 178 for 16:9)
E= Output Colorspace (0,1,2,3 for 601, 709, 2020, 2100 respectively)
F= Input dynamic range (0 = SDR, 1 = HDR)
G= Input Mode ("i" = interlaced, "p" = progressive, "-" = no Input)
H= Output Mode. ("I" = interlaced, "P" = progressive)
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post #4990 of 8045 Old 08-01-2019, 10:59 PM
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Wow! Does it generate events automatically if something changes or do you have to query? SJ
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post #4991 of 8045 Old 08-01-2019, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jon1199 View Post
Hi Jim,

I would like to give you a big Thanks!

This is for continuing to support your products with after sales / tech support as well as continually improving and updating, such as with the most recent update for DTM. I was already impressed with the former, when I had to email for help with synch issues early on and got such prompt and helpful replies from you. With the DTM update - WOW..
When I first decided to jump on and purchase a Radiance Pro around 15 months ago, I really did not expect the level of commitment you have provided with Lumagen. Usually with other 'high-end' AV gear, I would be expecting to look at another purchase / upgrade to keep up with 'improvements'. I did go from a Sony 885ES over to a 995ES within a year and lost a significant amount of $$ But on the other hand, my Radiance Pro 15 months later, has had improvements on improvements.
The expectation may be that once someone pays higher $$$ for a product, you should see the support but this is often not the case.
So in short, I really appreciate what you are doing to make the Radiance Pro such an awesome device and an 'investment' or at least a highly positive cost value proposition. THANK YOU!
Thanks for the very positive comments. We really appreciate the recognition of our efforts.

We are thrilled with the great response the DTM improvements are receiving. We believe the DTM is in excellent shape now, but will also work on any additional scenes reported to us. And of course we have other features we will be adding.

We also want to thank the Radiance Pro community for all the feedback sent to us (such as scenes for Tone Mapping improvement, plus other positive comments and areas for improvement). This has been instrumental in helping us improve the Radiance Pro.
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post #4992 of 8045 Old 08-01-2019, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
Wow! Does it generate events automatically if something changes or do you have to query? SJ
Yes, you can set the Pro to automatically (without any query command) send the "Full v2" status (or other supported status) report out the RS232 port if any of the reported status changes.
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post #4993 of 8045 Old 08-02-2019, 01:40 AM
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@jrp


Can u spoke about the new update lunch today and the small change come in the HDR setting (trans,shape...etc)

Thx


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Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
I would say that if the source is a Strato it likely can be done. The Strato sends out events when things change and your control system can capture this and make changes accordingly. Just mentioned this in the Strato thread....
I think the Kaleidescape players are unique in that they have a curated metadata output for the aspect ratio, so no real need to use Lumagen Auto Aspect with them (though it might be simpler to use the same aspect control for all sources)
For all other products you probably want to use Lumagen Auto Aspect by watching the Lumagen serial port for the input update events. Works great and is very slick.
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post #4995 of 8045 Old 08-02-2019, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by jrp View Post
I recently updated the Radiance Pro setup slide set, and I just completed a new revision of the Radiance Pro manual. I have attached copies of these to this post. We should have the new manual revision posted on the Lumagen website by early next week.
Great thanks for this. Are there any further changes being made to the manual since it's still not on the site yet?

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Originally Posted by jrp View Post
The Radiance Pro can auto-detect the input aspect and then auto-report the input and output information to a control system like the Crestron. This information is in the RS232 Tech Tip number 11 on the Lumagen website support/manuals page. This information for the "Full v2" status report information is shown below:

Radiance Pro only. Full information query (“Full v2” for unsolicited status output): Response = "!I22,M,RRR,VVVV,D,X,AAA,SSS,Y,T, WWWW,C,B,PPP,QQQQ,ZZZ,E,F,G,H":
M= Input status (0 = no source, 1 = active video, 2 = internal pattern)
RRR= Source vertical rate (e.g. 059 for 59.94, 060 for 60.00)
VVVV= Source vertical resolution (e.g. 1080 for 1080p)
D= 3D mode (0,1,2,4,8)
X= Input config number for current input resolution
AAA = Output aspect (e.g. 1.78 for 16:9)
SSS = Source aspect (e.g. 235 for 2.35)
Y= NLS active (‘-‘ for normal, 'N' for NLS)
T= 3D output mode (0,1,2,4,8)
WWWW= Output on. 16 bit hex, b0 to 15 for out 1 to 16. Bit=1 if on
C= Output CMS selected (0 to 7)
B= Output style selected (0 to 7)
PPP= Output vertical rate, (e.g. 059 for 59.94, 060 for 60.00)
QQQQ= Output vertical res (e.g. 1080 for 1080p)
ZZZ= Output aspect (e.g. 178 for 16:9)
E= Output Colorspace (0,1,2,3 for 601, 709, 2020, 2100 respectively)
F= Input dynamic range (0 = SDR, 1 = HDR)
G= Input Mode ("i" = interlaced, "p" = progressive, "-" = no Input)
H= Output Mode. ("I" = interlaced, "P" = progressive)
Thanks for the detailed response Jim.

So, when the splash / menu screen comes on masking will move to 16:9 and then to whatever aspect the film is once the movie is started... for all sources?

Also, In terms of a model to buy, I do not fully understand the input / output options. If I have 2 primary sources (disc player and KScape) and then an occasional cable program, what is basic model I would use? All sources are currently into a JBL / Trinnov SSP.

I also use an anamorphic lens (Paladin). Any issues with a lens in a permanent position in front of lens? Sony 5000ES PJ.

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post #4997 of 8045 Old 08-02-2019, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
The Radiance Pro can auto-detect the input aspect and then auto-report the input and output information to a control system like the Crestron. This information is in the RS232 Tech Tip number 11 on the Lumagen website support/manuals page. This information for the "Full v2" status report information is shown below:

Radiance Pro only. Full information query (“Full v2” for unsolicited status output): Response = "!I22,M,RRR,VVVV,D,X,AAA,SSS,Y,T, WWWW,C,B,PPP,QQQQ,ZZZ,E,F,G,H":
M= Input status (0 = no source, 1 = active video, 2 = internal pattern)
RRR= Source vertical rate (e.g. 059 for 59.94, 060 for 60.00)
VVVV= Source vertical resolution (e.g. 1080 for 1080p)
D= 3D mode (0,1,2,4,8)
X= Input config number for current input resolution
AAA = Output aspect (e.g. 1.78 for 16:9)
SSS = Source aspect (e.g. 235 for 2.35)
Y= NLS active (‘-‘ for normal, 'N' for NLS)
T= 3D output mode (0,1,2,4,8)
WWWW= Output on. 16 bit hex, b0 to 15 for out 1 to 16. Bit=1 if on
C= Output CMS selected (0 to 7)
B= Output style selected (0 to 7)
PPP= Output vertical rate, (e.g. 059 for 59.94, 060 for 60.00)
QQQQ= Output vertical res (e.g. 1080 for 1080p)
ZZZ= Output aspect (e.g. 178 for 16:9)
E= Output Colorspace (0,1,2,3 for 601, 709, 2020, 2100 respectively)
F= Input dynamic range (0 = SDR, 1 = HDR)
G= Input Mode ("i" = interlaced, "p" = progressive, "-" = no Input)
H= Output Mode. ("I" = interlaced, "P" = progressive)
Thanks for the detailed response Jim.

So, when the splash / menu screen comes on masking will move to 16:9 and then to whatever aspect the film is once the movie is started... for all sources?

Also, In terms of a model to buy, I do not fully understand the input / output options. If I have 2 primary sources (disc player and KScape) and then an occasional cable program, what is basic model I would use? All sources are currently into a JBL / Trinnov SSP.

I also use an anamorphic lens (Paladin). Any issues with a lens in a permanent position in front of lens? Sony 5000ES PJ.
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post #4998 of 8045 Old 08-02-2019, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jabz View Post
Great thanks for this. Are there any further changes being made to the manual since it's still not on the site yet?
I attached the new manual a few posts ago, but have asked Patrick to get the new manual up on the website today. It will be under support/manuals.

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post #4999 of 8045 Old 08-02-2019, 02:19 PM
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Well, the new firmware has me perplexed - I cannot get DTM On to look nearly as good as the prior firmware - currently DTM Off looks much better in both brighter and darker scenes compared to On

The image is flatter, reduced in overall brightness, and less saturdated - I’ve tried a variety of Max light settings and worked with Kris to implement some dtm setting changes

There is something odd that I can’t figure out yet

So far this seems like a step backwards at least for me - I’ve reached out to Jim so hopefully we can see if there is some setting or settings that are not optimal.

Kris did mention this might be an byproduct of the increased padding now in place in an effort to trap for and reduce highlight clipping (if I’m paraphrasing him correctly) - but if this is the case, it feels way too conservative an approach - I’d sacrifice occasional loss of highlight detail for a more impactful overall image

UPDATED 4/29/17 Thrang's Home Theater (for now...)
Sony VPL-VW5000es • Panamorph Paladin DCR • Trinnov Altitude 32/24 • Crown DCIn amplifiers • JBL M2 (LCR-LW-RW) • JBL S2S-EX subwoofers x2 • JBL SCL-4 (side/rear surrounds) • JBL SCS12 (x4) SCS8 (x2) TH/RH/TM • Lumagen Radiance Pro • Panasonic UB820 • Apple TV 4k • Synology RAID (45 TB total storage) • RTI control system
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post #5000 of 8045 Old 08-02-2019, 03:01 PM
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Drop Outs/sync issuses

With all sources going into lumagen pro and video to tv and audio to processor on directv something is odd. When watching live tv on directv I have to reboot my lumagen pro for stable output every once and awhile. When I watch shows that I've recorded on directv I never have this problem. Any ideas why this happens?
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post #5001 of 8045 Old 08-02-2019, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
So, when the splash / menu screen comes on masking will move to 16:9 and then to whatever aspect the film is once the movie is started... for all sources?

Also, In terms of a model to buy, I do not fully understand the input / output options. If I have 2 primary sources (disc player and KScape) and then an occasional cable program, what is basic model I would use? All sources are currently into a JBL / Trinnov SSP.

I also use an anamorphic lens (Paladin). Any issues with a lens in a permanent position in front of lens? Sony 5000ES PJ.
The Pro detects the input aspect based on there being (or not) a letter box bar above the movie. If there is is video filling the raster the Pro detects it as 16:9 for HDR and UHD, or for SD it is treated as 4:3. Splash screens are typically 16:9 and the Pro will report this. Then when you start a movie or other program the Pro detects its aspect ratio.

If auto aspect is enabled for that input the Pro then uses the configured settings for that source aspect. When it reports the status (either through a query or the "auto report") it reports the current source aspect if that information is in the selected status type).

====

Based on your description I suggest the Radiance Pro 4242 which has four inputs and two outputs (default is 9 GHz I/O cards). I would suggest upgrading the input cards (two in this case) to 18 GHz. Then you put your source into inputs 1, 3, 4, 2 from most to least used. The reason is 18 GHz input cards have one input chip per two inputs. By putting your two primary sources as inputs 1 and 3, you can switch between these two sources faster than if they are on, say, inputs 1 and 2.

I just posted on why I tell people to get a 9 GHz output card for the 4242. In short I can't see a difference upgrading to 18 GHz even for 4k60 HDR output, and the 9 GHz output has slower edge rates than the 18 GHz output making it easier on marginal TV/projector input designs. Since with the 9 GHz output both outputs can be independently programmed as video, audio, or both, this can help when an audio processor does not implement all the needed audio interrupts and instead depends on video interrupts to know when to change the audio. With the 9 GHz output you can enable both video and audio on Output 1 to the audio processor.

I have our Trinnov Altitude 16 on Output 1 (currently a 9 GHz output card) of our Radiance Pro 4446 with both audio and video enabled. Our JVC RS4500 is on Output 4. This is an 18 GHz output. This way the Pro can do the switching which is our recommendation.

As a side note I switch between the 18 GHz output at 18 GHz and the 9 GHz output to the RS4500. I use both since I want to show the 18 GHz output works reliably with a projector that has a good 18 GHz input design, such as the RS4500, but that 9 GHz output with the Pro's excellent dithering looks just as good (IMO).

====

No issues with the Paladin in front of your Sony 5000. Is it the DCR version? What is your screen aspect? If a DCR I recommend 4096 by 2160 (Cin4K MENU 0877 output mode) since the scaling in the VW5000 is always on (due to its internal digital convergence). Might as well get the extra light output versus 3840 wide output. If non-DCR then use 3840 by 2160 output mode for a 2.35 or 2.40 screen. There are tricks you can employ to fill the screen for both 2.35 and 2.40 content. This varies slightly based on your screen aspect.

There is a quirk in the VW5000. It is internally a DCI projector with a HDMI to Display Port adapter. The DCI input inside the projector at the DCI interface is 8 bits and so whatever is sent to the VW5000 is truncated (I believe) to 8 bits at the DCI interface. Because of this I have been suggesting people set the Dither in the Output->Styles->Style->HDMI Setup->Dither to 8 bits. With this setting there is no need to 18 GHz output at all. Unfortunately so far no one has responded with a thumbs up or thumbs down for this. To see if this is better you would find a scene using the 12-bit 4:2:2 output that shows a bit of contouring due to the truncation to 8-bit. Then try dithering it to 8 bits to see if it mitigates the 8 bit limitation.

Let me know all the details of your screen and whether you have a DCR lens and I can post something here that might interest you and others about setting so both 2.35 and 2.40 content look as good as possible.
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post #5002 of 8045 Old 08-02-2019, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by jrp View Post
Let me know all the details of your screen and whether you have a DCR lens and I can post something here that might interest you and others about setting so both 2.35 and 2.40 content look as good as possible.
Thank you for the incredibly detailed response.

I have a Sony 5000ES, a Stewart VistaScope (BRIC controller) @ 14.5' wide, 2.40 Aspect. My anamorphic lens is a fixed Panamorph Paladin DCR into a SDP-75 / Altitude. Sources are KScape, BD / UHD Player, Comcast 4K box (though no 4K content on Xfinity yet), Apple TV. 90% of viewing is KScape.

Again, Thanks so much.

I salute our Immersion professionals: Curt Hoyt to which I am very thankful for positioning my JBL loudspeakers correctly to achieve a very tight bubble and the greatly missed Peter CINERAMAX whose fearless R&D in PRO-RIBBON cinemas, curation of most immersive Kaleidescape scripts and forging ahead to 55 loudspeaker Crystal Led Cinemas will pave the road ahead. And Adam Pelz for bringing the system to jawdropping life!

Last edited by thebland; 08-02-2019 at 04:37 PM.
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post #5003 of 8045 Old 08-02-2019, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Well, the new firmware has me perplexed - I cannot get DTM On to look nearly as good as the prior firmware - currently DTM Off looks much better in both brighter and darker scenes compared to On

The image is flatter, reduced in overall brightness, and less saturdated - I’ve tried a variety of Max light settings and worked with Kris to implement some dtm setting changes

There is something odd that I can’t figure out yet

So far this seems like a step backwards at least for me - I’ve reached out to Jim so hopefully we can see if there is some setting or settings that are not optimal.

Kris did mention this might be an byproduct of the increased padding now in place in an effort to trap for and reduce highlight clipping (if I’m paraphrasing him correctly) - but if this is the case, it feels way too conservative an approach - I’d sacrifice occasional loss of highlight detail for a more impactful overall image
There are so many variables when it comes to projector settings, I would have to imagine you can get things more to your liking. With movies that had a tendency to look a bit blown out before ( Magnificent Seven 4K, The Kingsman ), it's looked much better now on my system. I haven't had a chance to watch a full movie with the new firmware yet, but I have friends coming shortly to watch La La Land, so I'll report back tomorrow on what I see.
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post #5004 of 8045 Old 08-02-2019, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by LGJr View Post
With all sources going into lumagen pro and video to tv and audio to processor on directv something is odd. When watching live tv on directv I have to reboot my lumagen pro for stable output every once and awhile. When I watch shows that I've recorded on directv I never have this problem. Any ideas why this happens?
I responded to this in email, but the most likely issues is:

Potentially a cable is a bit loose or got bumped during the update. I recommend (with wall power diconntected) pulling and then re-inserting each end of every HDMI cable 5 times to clean and better form the contacts together. Then making very sure the plugs are all the way inserted.

I had this issue about a month ago. A cable got bumped and even though it looked like it was fully inserted it was not. Pushing it in (about 1/16 inch) resolved the issue.

Also there a small chance the specific FPGA in a system does not like the new release. This is very rare but can happen. Testing with a release that was working again to see if the issue goes away would be an indication of if this is an issue.

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post #5005 of 8045 Old 08-02-2019, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Thank you for the incredibly detailed response.

I have a Sony 5000ES, a Stewart VistaScope (BRIC controller) @ 14.5' wide, 2.40 Aspect. My anamorphic lens is a fixed Panamorph Paladin DCR into a SDP-75 / Altitude. Sources are KScape, BD / UHD Player, Comcast 4K box (though no 4K content on Xfinity yet), Apple TV. 90% of viewing is KScape.

Again, Thanks so much.
Since you have a 2.40 with a Paladin DCR, I recommend setting the Pro output to 4096x2160. You can do this by entering MENU 0877, then do a Save.

For the Sony VW5000ES, I suggest either using 9 GHz output (I have recently explained why this is a good idea), or if you want to run at 18 GHz, turn on the Reduce Max feature (Output->Styles->Style0->HDMI Format->Reduce Max). This reduces the blanking time, with no change to the actual image, reducing the output to about 17 GHz which the Sony VW5000 likes better than 18 GHz. If you do this for the output to the SDP75 (Altitude) have video turned off since this is a non standard rate and it can mess with an audio processor.

I personally like both 2.40 and 2.35 to fill my screen. There are a couple options I can recommend for this.

- Set the Pro output aspect to "single output aspect" = 2.40. Then select input aspect as 2.35 and zoom so it fills the width of the screen (should also fill the height). Then use the Pro masking (Output->Styles->Style0->Mask/Shrink->Mask) to set the overscan to a reasonable place.

- Set the Pro output aspect to "single output aspect" = 2.40. Then change the output aspect to "Output Aspect per Input aspect." Leave all input aspects as 2.40 except for 2.35 set the output aspect to 2.35. Not precise but with this setting the 2.35 content should fill the width of the screen instead of having small pillar box bars.

For our Strato, I program the Pro to always output 24 Hertz, even for the 60 Hertz OSD. This way the projector does not have its long lock on time changing from 60 to 24 Hertz or back at start/finish of the movie. If content is really 60 Hertz I override this back to 59.94 once I have started the content. I also do this for my Oppo 203. You do this in Output->Output Setup->2D. Select the Strato input, All for Memory, and All for input Mode (resolution), then select Output Mode = "2160p24 (4096x2160)" and then press OK to accept and do a Save.

I also program the SDR content to be output as SDR2020 in CMS0, and turn on the CMS0->Colorspace->2020< - > 601/709 = Auto convert. Since I use the recommended HDR output in a SDR container the CMS1 Colorspace is set up the same as CMS0, so no change going from SDR to HDR. I used Lightspace to do a 21x21x21 profile and generate a 17x17x17 3D LUT. For CMS0 I set targets as SDR Rec 709, and for HDR I set targets for SDR Rec 2020. If your projector is close to correct for Rec 2020 you can get by without a 3D LUT calibration, but I do always recommend a full color profile to see how good it is and then decide. This in turn means a professional calibrator.

Using these last two settings the output restart should be eliminated for start/finish of movies, once I have the Strato image on the screen (accounting for the change to 24 Hertz output when I select the Strato or Oppo), because there is no rate change and no colorspace change on the start/finish of the movie. So the only wait time is the Strato starting the movie.

Make sure to Save your changes.

I hope these "tricks" prove useful.
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post #5006 of 8045 Old 08-02-2019, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Well, the new firmware has me perplexed - I cannot get DTM On to look nearly as good as the prior firmware - currently DTM Off looks much better in both brighter and darker scenes compared to On

The image is flatter, reduced in overall brightness, and less saturdated - I’ve tried a variety of Max light settings and worked with Kris to implement some dtm setting changes

There is something odd that I can’t figure out yet

So far this seems like a step backwards at least for me - I’ve reached out to Jim so hopefully we can see if there is some setting or settings that are not optimal.

Kris did mention this might be an byproduct of the increased padding now in place in an effort to trap for and reduce highlight clipping (if I’m paraphrasing him correctly) - but if this is the case, it feels way too conservative an approach - I’d sacrifice occasional loss of highlight detail for a more impactful overall image
That was my first response as well after I installed the new firmware and had it calibrated over the last two days by Craig Rounds. THEN I watched some movie clips without turning DTM on and off. All I can say is WOW!! Just WOW. (That is a good WOW, by the way)

I will be interested to hear Jim or Kris Deering respond to your concerns.
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post #5007 of 8045 Old 08-02-2019, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Well, the new firmware has me perplexed - I cannot get DTM On to look nearly as good as the prior firmware - currently DTM Off looks much better in both brighter and darker scenes compared to On

The image is flatter, reduced in overall brightness, and less saturdated - I&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;ve tried a variety of Max light settings and worked with Kris to implement some dtm setting changes

There is something odd that I can&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;t figure out yet

So far this seems like a step backwards at least for me - I&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;ve reached out to Jim so hopefully we can see if there is some setting or settings that are not optimal.

Kris did mention this might be an byproduct of the increased padding now in place in an effort to trap for and reduce highlight clipping (if I&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;m paraphrasing him correctly) - but if this is the case, it feels way too conservative an approach - I&#226;€&#x2122;&#xfe0f;d sacrifice occasional loss of highlight detail for a more impactful overall image
That was my first response as well after I installed the new firmware and had it calibrated over the last two days by Craig Rounds. THEN I watched some movie clips without turning DTM on and off. All I can say is WOW!! Just WOW. (That is a good WOW, by the way)

I will be interested to hear Jim or Kris Deering respond to your concerns.
So I’m continuing to experiment and find I need to raise the high ratio to 21 or so (from the default 0) and Tran to 9 to eliminate the flatter duller look and reduced contrast I was experiencing. Jim is this in the realm of normal or indicative of something else perhaps not set right? Effective max display nits is around 272...

Thanks

UPDATED 4/29/17 Thrang's Home Theater (for now...)
Sony VPL-VW5000es • Panamorph Paladin DCR • Trinnov Altitude 32/24 • Crown DCIn amplifiers • JBL M2 (LCR-LW-RW) • JBL S2S-EX subwoofers x2 • JBL SCL-4 (side/rear surrounds) • JBL SCS12 (x4) SCS8 (x2) TH/RH/TM • Lumagen Radiance Pro • Panasonic UB820 • Apple TV 4k • Synology RAID (45 TB total storage) • RTI control system
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post #5008 of 8045 Old 08-02-2019, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by jrp View Post

For our Strato, I program the Pro to always output 24 Hertz, even for the 60 Hertz OSD. This way the projector does not have its long lock on time changing from 60 to 24 Hertz or back at start/finish of the movie. If content is really 60 Hertz I override this back to 59.94 once I have started the content. I also do this for my Oppo 203. You do this in Output->Output Setup->2D. Select the Strato input, All for Memory, and All for input Mode (resolution), then select Output Mode = "2160p24 (4096x2160)" and then press OK to accept and do a Save.
I did this for awhile, but the Strato OSD seemed very jerky at 24 vs. 60 Hertz (movie covers). My Sony 995 is not too bad in syncing (well at least compared to my previous JVC). Guess the trade off is faster switching vs. jerky movie covers moving around unless you don’t use that feature which especially our guests like. SJ
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post #5009 of 8045 Old 08-02-2019, 11:06 PM
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Thrang made some comments that spurred me on to post some additional DTM information.

First, I would like to remind people that we have two horses in this race. A large portion of the improvements we made for Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM) apply to Static Tone Mapping (STM). For example, the much higher precision in the calculations, the improved mapping curve generation, and the higher precision in the curves. So we not only raised the bar for DTM, we also raised it for STM. So this is a case of us competing with ourselves.

The relationship between the brightness for DTM and STM is very complicated. However, I need to note that "STM is brighter and so better" is in general wrong or at the least misleading. Also as I will discuss later, the parameters are used somewhat differently for DTM. So you cannot compare directly.

Hard to know exactly what the grader intended for sure since you would have to have been looking over the shoulder of the grader, or viewing on the same monitor model used for grading.

A case in point of not knowing for sure what the intent was is Incredibles 2. There are a number of people noting that it is darker than other HDR movies, but this appears to be the intent of the grade. You would need to look at the same monitor used for grading to know for sure though (although what people have posted is convincing).

Also note that The "HDR Mapping" in the Pro *cannot* change the color saturation. It only changes the intensity. Of course you may like the look of brighter pixels better and the intensity can change the perception of color, but as stated above brighter is often wrong.

One movie I think Thrang referenced in his discussion with Kris Deering was Blade Runner 2049 "Retiring the farmer" scene. I just had a look at this scene on our Strato. The movie reports a MaxCLL of 181 on the Strato when in fact the movie's MaxCLL is just above 480. This makes the movie brighter than it should be if one pays attention to the reported MaxCLL, which the Pro does with STM. You would have full brightness output at an input of 181 nits, and clip everything above this. Note: That we adjust for this issue in the Pro STM. So this error in the source is not as bad as it might be using STM.

For DTM the Pro calculates the actual scene brightness. The first time there is a close up of the farmers face in this scene the MaxCLL is reported as 19 by the Pro. Because of the way the Pro calculates this it is slightly less than a MaxCLL would be as reported in the Info Frame. So we might estimate the MaxCLL at about 25. This is the brightest part of the image. The background is much darker. So if you see this scene and the background looks like in daylight, it is wrong. This background along with much of Blade Runner 2049 is intentionally dark.

To see why there is a difference between DTM for this scene and STM I set the Max Light = 200 and Low-set and High-set Ratios to 0. What this means is the DTM and STM are using as close to the same parameters as possible quickly. To do the best comparison I would have to have two memories setup to optimize DTM independently from STM. Not going down that road.

DTM applies the parameters differently than STM. So as the Low-Set Ratio increases the differences between STM and DTM increase. With both Ratios at zero, I can go back and forth between STM and DTM and not see a perceptible difference. Is this correct? For the specifics of this scene, since the Max Light is 200, the STM MaxCLL is 181, and the Pro's "calculated scene MaxCLL is 200," yes it is.

=====

So what about bright scenes? As the scene MaxCLL approaches the Info Frame MaxCLL, STM and DTM should become almost indistinguishable. Said another way when the DTM scene MaxCLL = STM MaxCLL they should look the essentially same. This is not quite the case since the DTM is a blended curve, and STM is a directly calculated curve, but they are in fact very close. I checked Mad Max Fury Road at 28:29 seconds, where the truck is exploding in the air. On the Strato this movie reports MaxCLL = 4000. For this scene the Pro sets the scene MaxCLL at 2490. Not exact but close enough. And in fact going between DTM and STM looks very similar.

=====

So, said again, raising the Low-set Ratio increases the brightness faster for STM than for DTM for scene under 1000 nits. This is just how the math worked out. Does this mean the DTM is wrong? Nope. Does it mean that to do a valid comparison you would have to have different settings for Ratio (and other parameters) for STM than for DTM? Yes.

It was not a goal to be able to compare the two by turning DTM on and off. So, just going between DTM on and off is *not* a valid comparison. You are comparing proverbial apples and oranges. In fact, I must say I only evaluated if DTM looked as good as we could get it, without reference to STM.

=====

I have spent hundreds of hours evaluating DTM. Tonight, I spent a few hours comparing DTM to STM. In pretty much every case I looked at, with the parameters set appropriately to do the comparison correctly, the DTM looked more accurate, and had a better "contrast" to the image. The image just looked better. Dark areas were as dark as they should be with DTM and this was not quite as true for STM (still very good though).

Is DTM perfect? No. Will we be working to make it even better? Yes. Should you compare DTM to STM by turning it on and off? No, unless you know the algorithm well enough to set the parameters for each appropriately to get as close to an apples to apples comparison as possible. I'm not even sure I know how to do this for all cases.

So my recommendation is tune up DTM to your personal preferences, or use the defaults as I do. Do not waste time trying to compare to STM, you can't get the parameters set correctly for a fair comparison.

If you want a brighter picture, reduce the Max Light setting and it will be so.

Or, if you like STM use that. It's our second horse, but it's still our horse. And it's a very pretty horse. Just not as pretty as our new horse.

Most importantly, enjoy your Radiance Pro.
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post #5010 of 8045 Old 08-02-2019, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
I did this for awhile, but the Strato OSD seemed very jerky at 24 vs. 60 Hertz (movie covers). My Sony 995 is not too bad in syncing (well at least compared to my previous JVC). Guess the trade off is faster switching vs. jerky movie covers moving around unless you don’t use that feature which especially our guests like. SJ
Nope, not a fan of the Strato movie covers. They run away as I try to select them.

I am a big fan of the Strato itself.

When I am doing demos, and evaluating DTM, and other features, just the Strato's movie start time is longer than I would prefer. I am often looking at one scene each in many different movies. Eliminating the projector restart helps me get more work done.
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