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post #5131 of 5991 Old 08-10-2019, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
DTM off is basically static, and with that last build the coding on static was actually wrong, which is why everyone keeps seeing so much disparity. That will be resolved shortly.

Looking at your settings, 400 is probably good, if not slightly low. I would look at some really high nit content to see if that is allowing enough latitude without artifacts. The Meg, the Spears and Munsil 4K disc and Starship Troopers are all good high nit discs to look at.

My biggest concern with your setup would be the LUT set to HDR. For your setup I would highly suggest SDRP3 with gamma output set to SDR. Then have the projector calibrated to P3/D65 with a gamma of 2.4. If I am understanding your setup, you are double tone mapping, which would not be advised.
Hi Kris; thanks, interesting that DTM off is currently weird. I had wondered as I'd never noticed such a big difference before from turning DTM off.

I was previous to the current version using a fair bit higher than 400 max light as it looked better (600 most often recently) - I tried Jim's recomendation of 2-4x and disliked it, but 400 seems OK. Currently 400/26 for low ratio seems to get me closest to the behaviour of SDR areas of HDR discs, but I'm going to keep playing. I dislike having max light as low as Jim suggests (only 3-4x peak nits) because it seems to give problems with highlight areas (ie faces in sunshine) which seem to lose all detail and surface contrast.

I'm only tone mapping in the Pro. The JVC X7900 is in profile off mode with gamma set to 2.4 (but not calibrated - as it is in profile off autocal has no effect). I've tricked the projector into slipping the filter in with profile off which you can't do from the menus, which gets me the completely linear colorimetry of the profile off mode with the native panel gamut and gamma (so the LUT is also correcting the gamma droop)

The profile off / filter on mode of the projector is profiled with Lightspace, and then a 2.4 power gamma P3 LUT is created (because it is closer to P3 than 2020, so need to waster RGB code values) and the Lumagen output is set to P3 with the LUT having 2.4 SDR gamma. Seems to work...

Edit: interesting, I see Jim just updated his recommendation on max light prior to me posting. I'd been using 600 (sometimes 700) for a few months and did think it looked very good, though I thought it seemed a little darker in some scenes with the most recent release.

Last edited by bobof; 08-10-2019 at 12:24 PM.
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post #5132 of 5991 Old 08-10-2019, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Hi Kris; thanks, interesting that DTM off is currently weird. I had wondered as I'd never noticed such a big difference before from turning DTM off.

I was previous to the current version using a fair bit higher than 400 max light as it looked better (600 most often recently) - I tried Jim's recomendation of 2-4x and disliked it, but 400 seems OK. Currently 400/26 for low ratio seems to get me closest to the behaviour of SDR areas of HDR discs, but I'm going to keep playing. I dislike having max light as low as Jim suggests (only 3-4x peak nits) because it seems to give problems with highlight areas (ie faces in sunshine) which seem to lose all detail and surface contrast.

I'm only tone mapping in the Pro. The JVC X7900 is in profile off mode with gamma set to 2.4 (but not calibrated - as it is in profile off autocal has no effect). I've tricked the projector into slipping the filter in with profile off which you can't do from the menus, which gets me the completely linear colorimetry of the profile off mode with the native panel gamut and gamma (so the LUT is also correcting the gamma droop)

The profile off / filter on mode of the projector is profiled with Lightspace, and then a 2.4 power gamma P3 LUT is created (because it is closer to P3 than 2020, so need to waster RGB code values) and the Lumagen output is set to P3 with the LUT having 2.4 SDR gamma. Seems to work...

Edit: interesting, I see Jim just updated his recommendation on max light prior to me posting. I'd been using 600 (sometimes 700) for a few months and did think it looked very good, though I thought it seemed a little darker in some scenes with the most recent release.
Agree completely with the lower display max light. You have to be very careful what you use to set these values. I prefer to use content that is not stylized. Movies are hard to use because they stylize the crap out of them and its hard to know exactly what it should look like without a reference (though I do second check everything against my calibrated OLED using a DV grade if I have one). I've been using the JVC HDR demo or the new Spears and Munsil a bit more, looking for scenes with higher peaks and APL. You'll find settings that make a movie look good will make natural photography look wrong, especially in flesh tones and foliage colors.

I've read about the trick for using the filter. Does this require you to do anything every time you start the projector or is it set this once and you're good to go? You can PM on this if you'd like to keep the thread on topic.
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post #5133 of 5991 Old 08-10-2019, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post

In a previous post I mentioned the Low-set "effective Display Max Light" being set to approximately two times the measured nits of the projector, and the CMS1 Max Light being set to approximately four times the measured nits (with High-set Ratio = 0). This was based on a lot of evaluation by myself, Kris Deering and others. After my recommendation post Kris did a lot more evaluation on content with 072119. Based on his results the Low-Set recommendation is the same, but we are changing the CMS1 "Max Light" multiplier recommendation to "in the range of four to eight times the measured light in nits." This requires some further explanation.

With the CMS1 Max Light at four times the measured light, images are brighter than at an eight times multiple. In contrast the eight times multiple, while darker, preserves more color saturation in bright objects. This can improve the detail in bright saturated colors. So this means user preference comes into play choosing to either maximize brightness, or maximize bright color saturation, or balance these two objectives. I have increased our Demo Theater multiple to about five after doing more evaluation, and I think Kris is liking the Max Light multiple of around eight.
One thing I noticed (and one reason I didn't stick at my old 600-700 setting with the newer releases once I understood the ratio setting and the trick of getting the low effective max indication on screen with DTM off ) was that I didn't think Ratio in low had enough range. At 600 nit max light you have to set ratio all the way up to 31 to get effective display max down to 153 nits, and driving any control to max usually raises concern unless you fully understand the implementation behind it.
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post #5134 of 5991 Old 08-10-2019, 12:53 PM
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One thing I noticed (and one reason I didn't stick at my old 600-700 setting with the newer releases once I understood the ratio setting and the trick of getting the low effective max indication on screen with DTM off ) was that I didn't think Ratio in low had enough range. At 600 nit max light you have to set ratio all the way up to 31 to get effective display max down to 153 nits, and driving any control to max usually raises concern unless you fully understand the implementation behind it.
153 is really low, I'm surprised that you would go that low with any content. It may look good with something extremely dark (I have a great test scene for this in The Revenant) but it would be at the expense of other content looking too bright. I wouldn't recommend going under 200 unless you have a REALLY dim projector (something with peak light output less than 15fL of so). There is never going to be a perfect solution unless you had per frame data to work with, so it is finding the best overall compromise so you don't find yourself fiddling with it constantly. Dynamic systems will ALWAYS have to have some issues, it is the nature of the beast. It is just finding the settings that provide you with the best results for your tastes and the least amount of artifacts that annoy you.
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post #5135 of 5991 Old 08-10-2019, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
153 is really low, I'm surprised that you would go that low with any content. It may look good with something extremely dark (I have a great test scene for this in The Revenant) but it would be at the expense of other content looking too bright. I wouldn't recommend going under 200 unless you have a REALLY dim projector (something with peak light output less than 15fL of so). There is never going to be a perfect solution unless you had per frame data to work with, so it is finding the best overall compromise so you don't find yourself fiddling with it constantly. Dynamic systems will ALWAYS have to have some issues, it is the nature of the beast. It is just finding the settings that provide you with the best results for your tastes and the least amount of artifacts that annoy you.
I'm still playing, it is a brave new world with the latest updates to DTM.
My understanding of the low ratio giving something like 153 would be that for content that measured as having an SDRish "DTM max CLL" this ratio would result in most of that content being mapped into the 75 nits like it were a standard projection setup with approx half the luminance of an SDR reference monitor (which seems to be the norm for SDR projection), so it would be most like the SDR image I like. Maybe that is missing the point of HDR a bit, though I still remain to be convinced HDR isn't just something pointless we have to deal with in projection to get access to 4K and WCG.

Thanks for the thoughts. I'm trying all options at the moment and will fiddle more with this in line with your suggestion. In a way I wish there were a little less indirection on the Pro between what is happening with respect to nits levels and the ratios setup / multipliers spread to max light setting, though I can see why we are where we are given the evolution. It is just a little funny now that we really only have two settings recommended for tweaking initially (max light and low ratio) whose parameters it seems could be expressed differently on the UI in terms of real nits.

I really hope that HDR10+ takes off as we could get the benefit of that metadata as an input to Lumagen tone mapping. I've been pleasantly surprised with the quality of the scene detection to date, and it is only getting better, but good data could really bring that little extra, and I disagree quite strongly that dynamic tonemapping should be thought as a reason why DV/HDR10+ aren't necessary (and why I'm quite bitter DV won't open up their data to Lumagen at the moment)

I know there are some concerns from some that HDR10+ data could be only as good as HDR10 data (ie not very) but I don't think that will be the case seeing as you'd have to go out of your way to add the HDR10+ data, so why bother for it not to be sensible? I understand it is generally just the output of an automatic parser which is great if it gives you that crucial vision into the future of the scene.
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post #5136 of 5991 Old 08-10-2019, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
In the CMS, if you select output colorspace as SDRP3 and have conversion ON, it is changing 2020 to P3. The Lumagen also offers 2020 conversion to 709, but that is a different selection.
One final question. When I disable DTM during calibration, does that also disable 2020 to P3 conversion? I am hoping DTM and 2020 to P3 gamut conversion controls are independent of each other. I don't think I've seen anything in the new Radiance Owner's Manual about this. Perhaps I should mention it to Jim P. His home/office is just 20 minutes away from me.

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post #5137 of 5991 Old 08-10-2019, 02:49 PM
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One final question. When I disable DTM during calibration, does that also disable 2020 to P3 conversion? I am hoping DTM and 2020 to P3 gamut conversion controls are independent of each other. I don't think I've seen anything in the new Radiance Owner's Manual about this. Perhaps I should mention it to Jim P. His home/office is just 20 minutes away from me.
If you follow our recommended "output HDR in a SDR container" calibration is done with SDR patterns. Tone Mapping is off in this case.

The colorspace conversions are independent of the SDR or HDR and Tone Mapping mode. If the input color space is different than the output and the "Auto Convert" is enabled it will always change the data from the input color format to be correct for the output color format.

NOTE: If you want to use a different output color format and use Auto Convert to change the data you need to know what is going on so you can leave auto convert enabled or disable it as appropriate. Here are two examples:

For SDR source I use CMS0->Colorspace = SDR2020, with Auto Convert. For this I have our JVC RS4500 CMS disabled (but these comments work the same if you have it set to 2020). I can do a profile using SDR patterns with Auto Convert *on* and then create a 1D/3D LUT targeting Rec709 Gamut with Bt.1886 Gamma. This is because while Auto Convert is changing the data to 2020, so I can run the projector in 2020 mode (helps reduce the number of output restarts switching from SDR to HDR content), I want to calibrate to Rec709. This 1D/3D LUT is loaded into CMS0. Auto Convert must be on for watching content.

If I set HDR color mode as CMS1->Colorspace = SDRP3, since in this case I want to output and calibrate to P3 for a projector (or TV) with a Gamut around P3, when I do the profile, I must turn Auto Convert *off*. With Auto Convert off, I do a profile with SDR patterns and then create a 1D/3D LUT targeting P3 (D65) and Gamma = 2.4. This 1D/3D LUT is loaded into CMS1. Auto Convert must be on for watching content.

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post #5138 of 5991 Old 08-10-2019, 03:53 PM
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It seems to me that HDSat is no longer working as it was in previous versions. It is less effective in the attached screenshot from Mad Max or completely uneffective when I watch the spear scene in Batman vs. Superman.
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post #5139 of 5991 Old 08-11-2019, 07:13 AM
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I'm using a Paladin DCR for my JVC RS4500 on a 21:9 Stewart screen, so all the 16:9 content has black vertical bars left and right of the screen.
Now I wonder how to get different maskings within the Lumagen settings for 16:9 and 21:9 separately as I need to mask the 16:9 picture differently than my 21:9 picture.
Do I need to use different memory settings, or what's the best way here?

Thanks!

Anybody?
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post #5140 of 5991 Old 08-11-2019, 10:25 AM
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Anybody?
You are on the right track! Use different styles (masking option/shrinking options) and address these to the different memory slots a/b/c/d via the output setup.
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post #5141 of 5991 Old 08-11-2019, 10:49 AM
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It seems to me that HDSat is no longer working as it was in previous versions. It is less effective in the attached screenshot from Mad Max or completely uneffective when I watch the spear scene in Batman vs. Superman.
For the scene shown you need to raise DSat to the 12 to 15 range for it to affect the Cyan in the source image. This has always been the case. I have not looked at Batman vs. Superman, but DSat only affects the brightest of objects in high MaxCLL movies.

We are discussing ways to enhance this feature for those who like it, but it is not on the priority list.

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post #5142 of 5991 Old 08-11-2019, 12:38 PM
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Jim,

could you make the "left" key, which usually accesses the DTM menu, work for SDR as well? So that gamma and black levels would be always easily accessible via the same route?
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post #5143 of 5991 Old 08-11-2019, 12:41 PM
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I have not looked at Batman vs. Superman, but DSat only affects the brightest of objects in high MaxCLL movies.
I watched the scene again several times and even switched back to older FW versions. This is really strange. Sometimes I see the spear like in the first screenshot. But more often I get to see it like the second screenshot, completely green without structure and even the shape is not visible because of the halo.

DTM off always looks like the first screenshot.
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post #5144 of 5991 Old 08-11-2019, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
I watched the scene again several times and even switched back to older FW versions. This is really strange. Sometimes I see the spear like in the first screenshot. But more often I get to see it like the second screenshot, completely green without structure and even the shape is not visible because of the halo.

DTM off always looks like the first screenshot.
If you are skipping / seeking to the scene you could be having different scene conditions so maybe or not detecting scene at the point you skip to. One example of this is to try and go backwards and forwards through the patch sequences on R Masciola's test disc for HDR. You can see some interesting effects as the Lumagen locks onto a different detected maxCLL with the luminance of the patches looping.

You really need to make sure you are skipping to a time well before the scene you are evaluating.
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post #5145 of 5991 Old 08-11-2019, 01:38 PM
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I didn't skip directly to that scene and gave the Radiance about 10 seconds before it.


Edit:
It seems to have something to do with the nVidia Shield. Even starting playback 3 minutes before the scene resulted in the second screenshot.
Then I changed the player and and the scene always resulted in the first screenshot.
There are too many variables in this game.
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Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
You are on the right track! Use different styles (masking option/shrinking options) and address these to the different memory slots a/b/c/d via the output setup.
Cool, thanks! Just wanted to make sure I'm doing the right thing... :-)
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post #5147 of 5991 Old 08-11-2019, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
I didn't skip directly to that scene and gave the Radiance about 10 seconds before it.


Edit:
It seems to have something to do with the nVidia Shield. Even starting playback 3 minutes before the scene resulted in the second screenshot.
Then I changed the player and and the scene always resulted in the first screenshot.
There are too many variables in this game.[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif[/IMG]
I don’t have a Shield but most of the streaming devices like that change the metadata so it doesn’t match the original, even if it is a rip. So may be causing your issues.

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post #5148 of 5991 Old 08-11-2019, 11:05 PM
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I don’t have a Shield but most of the streaming devices like that change the metadata so it doesn’t match the original, even if it is a rip. So may be causing your issues.
I thought that DLev 8 would ignore the metadata.

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post #5149 of 5991 Old 08-11-2019, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I don’️t have a Shield but most of the streaming devices like that change the metadata so it doesn’️t match the original, even if it is a rip. So may be causing your issues.
I thought that DLev 8 would ignore the metadata.
I don’t think there are any that completely ignore but I could be wrong.

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post #5150 of 5991 Old 08-12-2019, 02:31 AM
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I don’t think there are any that completely ignore but I could be wrong.
I also thought this from previous postings on the subject from @jrp , but the most recent training material from @jrp now says:

Quote:
▪ A value of 8 does not use any of the static MaxCLL data
I don't know if the above is a simplification of the behaviour for reasons of brevity in the slide, or a genuine change in behaviour.
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Cool, thanks! Just wanted to make sure I'm doing the right thing... :-)
I have styles for 2.35 with DCR lens, 2.40 and NLS. Works awesome!
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post #5152 of 5991 Old 08-12-2019, 06:57 AM
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I'm wondering if this is just based on evaluating popular test material mentioned on this thread, because my experience is showing superior performance in lighter and dark scenes with the new firmware.

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We watched RocketMan on K Escape last night - I believe it will be a good test of DTM, let us know if you watch it.

On a separate note - my Lumagen is Ordered and Adam Peltz will be here to install it last week of August.
I am curious to see how it works as I have been holding out on the Lumagen even after all the harassment from Steve B....
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post #5153 of 5991 Old 08-12-2019, 08:20 AM
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I don’t have a Shield but most of the streaming devices like that change the metadata so it doesn’t match the original, even if it is a rip. So may be causing your issues.
The shield is broken right now based on update 8.0. Colorspace changing no longer works. Just set it to HDR and then start the movie, should fix the issue.
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post #5154 of 5991 Old 08-12-2019, 08:51 AM
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I also thought this from previous postings on the subject from @jrp , but the most recent training material from @jrp now says:



I don't know if the above is a simplification of the behaviour for reasons of brevity in the slide, or a genuine change in behaviour.
That is probably correct, I didn't remember off the top of my head. So not sure what would be causing your issue.

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Originally Posted by Yoxxy View Post
The shield is broken right now based on update 8.0. Colorspace changing no longer works. Just set it to HDR and then start the movie, should fix the issue.
I noticed that too, also weird results like HDR709
How can they break something working in dev mode once it's in prod.
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post #5156 of 5991 Old 08-12-2019, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
I didn't skip directly to that scene and gave the Radiance about 10 seconds before it.


Edit:
It seems to have something to do with the nVidia Shield. Even starting playback 3 minutes before the scene resulted in the second screenshot.
Then I changed the player and and the scene always resulted in the first screenshot.
There are too many variables in this game.
Indeed. Do you have the same content available to you via disc playback? I would see if you get the same results from a disc as the Shield. But it sounds like the Shield indeed still has issues to work out.

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post #5157 of 5991 Old 08-12-2019, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoxxy View Post
The shield is broken right now based on update 8.0. Colorspace changing no longer works. Just set it to HDR and then start the movie, should fix the issue.
That update to 8.0 broke mine as well. In addition to both colorimetry and resolution not working, it also screwed up the image placement on my screen, and a bunch of other stuff. Based upon some recommendations by Craig Rounds who is investigating the Zappiti and has seen it in action (and was quite impressed with it), that may be my next device to play my ripped files. That would be number 5 (Apple TV, Dune, Zidoo and Shield). At least it has an option to send source direct material to my Lumagen processor. We shall see and I won't buy one until Craig checks it out thoroughly.

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Last edited by audioguy; 08-12-2019 at 12:15 PM.
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post #5158 of 5991 Old 08-12-2019, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
We watched RocketMan on K Escape last night - I believe it will be a good test of DTM, let us know if you watch it.

On a separate note - my Lumagen is Ordered and Adam Peltz will be here to install it last week of August.
I am curious to see how it works as I have been holding out on the Lumagen even after all the harassment from Steve B....
Steve B has been holding out on getting a Panamorph DCR lens despite being harassed, so what goes around comes around.
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post #5159 of 5991 Old 08-12-2019, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland Janus View Post
I noticed that too, also weird results like HDR709
How can they break something working in dev mode once it's in prod.
Owning shields for the last three years it always seems to work this way. Every milestone update destroys something.
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post #5160 of 5991 Old 08-12-2019, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
That update to 8.0 broke mine as well. In addition to both colorimetry and resolution not working, it also screwed up the image placement on my screen, and a bunch of other stuff. Based upon some recommendations by Craig Rounds who is investigating the Zappiti and has seen it in action (and was quite impressed with it), that may be my next device to play my ripped files. That would be number 5 (Apple TV, Dune, Zidoo and Shield). At least it has an option to send source direct material to my Lumagen processor. We shall see and I won't buy one until Craig checks it out thoroughly.
I'm working on a review of the Zappiti for Sound and Vision now. So look for that at some point to help.
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