New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 177 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5281 of 8030 Old 08-20-2019, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Stability issues definitely sound Sony related. I installed the latest on several JVC's over the weekend and used it on mine with zero issues. I have one client that had an issue with a JVC so far, others haven't said a peep. I'm sure Jim and Pat will have a look soon to try and dial in the FPGA a bit more.


Watched “ Shazam “ tonight on 4K Blu-ray. The picture was jaw dropping good and DTM worked extremely well. Your calibration Kris is outstanding! No issues here.


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post #5282 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 12:14 AM
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With my JVC 4500 (Z1) I only get ~50 nits on screen (big screen/low gain) and definitely need all the DTM controls in order to get a decent "HDR" image. Default settings, with current firmwares, do not work for me at all. So while it might be safe to say that the current Lumagen defaults are looking good on most displays, they don't work for every display and so, please do not remove access to the full set of DTM settings: an expert mode is fine, as long as there is some way to get to all the parameters...

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post #5283 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 12:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post
With my JVC 4500 (Z1) I only get ~50 nits on screen (big screen/low gain) and definitely need all the DTM controls in order to get a decent "HDR" image. Default settings, with current firmwares, do not work for me at all. So while it might be safe to say that the current Lumagen defaults are looking good on most displays, they don't work for every display and so, please do not remove access to the full set of DTM settings: an expert mode is fine, as long as there is some way to get to all the parameters...
Out of interest, which settings and how are you tweaking? (assuming you are at liberty to disclose). Are you outputting SDR2020?

As an aside though, I don't think there will be anything unique about your 50 nits vs anyone else's (assuming your 50 nits has the recommended starting point and are calibrated to standard gamma 2.4) so if there ever were a much simplified peak nits based set of options and low nit displays didn't work with the current settings you'd assume that would get fixed in the algorithm that goes from peak nits to the various control values.

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post #5284 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Out of interest, which settings and how are you tweaking? (assuming you are at liberty to disclose). Are you outputting SDR2020?
Outputting SDR2020, yes.

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As an aside though, I don't think there will be anything unique about your 50 nits vs anyone else's (assuming your 50 nits has the recommended starting point and are calibrated to standard gamma 2.4)
It does.

The default settings were pretty good on previous firmwares, but the recent changes "broke" that leaving me with a dull image. Only way to get back to where I was, without blowing out colours etc, is to adjust RATIO, SHAPE and TRANSITION away from their defaults, with custom settings for both HIGH and LOW ranges. With those adjustments made the image is once again back to where it was and very good looking. All I'm saying is that I, and perhaps others, need those adjustments available... "hidden" in an expert mode is fine, just as long as they are there.

The problem with low nits displays, in my experience, is that you cannot aim for a MAX LIGHT of 4 x nits, which I think is the current recommended starting point for projectors, and which I guess the defaults are predicated upon. That setting (200) on my projector results in a bright image but with lots of blown colours and an artificial looking image. Raising MAX LIGHT is the solution, but then the defaults no longer look good.

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post #5285 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post
Outputting SDR2020, yes.

It does.

The default settings were pretty good on previous firmwares, but the recent changes "broke" that leaving me with a dull image. Only way to get back to where I was, without blowing out colours etc, is to adjust RATIO, SHAPE and TRANSITION away from their defaults, with custom settings for both HIGH and LOW ranges. With those adjustments made the image is once again back to where it was and very good looking. All I'm saying is that I, and perhaps others, need those adjustments available... "hidden" in an expert mode is fine, just as long as they are there.

The problem with low nits displays, in my experience, is that you cannot aim for a MAX LIGHT of 4 x nits, which I think is the current recommended starting point for projectors, and which I guess the defaults are predicated upon. That setting (200) on my projector results in a bright image but with lots of blown colours and an artificial looking image. Raising MAX LIGHT is the solution, but then the defaults no longer look good.
50nits is a tough call for tone mapping, as there is essentially no range for highlights if you want to keep ADL similar to SDR. It might be a usage case that Jim and Patrick haven't specifically tested for.

Are you using an a-lens Mark, and are you running the Z1 in high or mid laser?
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post #5286 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
50nits is a tough call for tone mapping, as there is essentially no range for highlights if you want to keep ADL similar to SDR. It might be a usage case that Jim and Patrick haven't specifically tested for.
It *is* a tough call. For a while there, prior to DTM, I actually disabled HDR processing and went straight SDR2020 from the source as it was the only way to maintain acceptable brightness, however there were still issues, especially colour problems. DTM changed all that and allows the Lumagen to very successfully do all the HDR->SDR conversion so that I can once again get the best possible image from UHD sources within my limited brightness.

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Are you using an a-lens Mark, and are you running the Z1 in high or mid laser?
No a-lens for me, and running both MID (for 1.78 material) and HIGH (for ZOOMed 2.35 material) laser as that balances out the brightness for both types of presentation.

Fingers are still tightly crossed for a brighter JVC laser at some point, so my brightness issues fade away. Or I could go for a higher gain screen, but that's not something I can easily achieve without major work to my room.

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post #5287 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post
It *is* a tough call. For a while there, prior to DTM, I actually disabled HDR processing and went straight SDR2020 from the source as it was the only way to maintain acceptable brightness, however there were still issues, especially colour problems. DTM changed all that and allows the Lumagen to very successfully do all the HDR->SDR conversion so that I can once again get the best possible image from UHD sources within my limited brightness.



No a-lens for me, and running both MID (for 1.78 material) and HIGH (for ZOOMed 2.35 material) laser as that balances out the brightness for both types of presentation.

Fingers are still tightly crossed for a brighter JVC laser at some point, so my brightness issues fade away. Or I could go for a higher gain screen, but that's not something I can easily achieve without major work to my room.
You could add the Paladin DCR - that would get you up to around 67 nits - still quite low, but an increased range for highlight mapping.
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post #5288 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
You could add the Paladin DCR - that would get you up to around 67 nits - still quite low, but an increased range for highlight mapping.
Well, without wanting to start a fight with anybody, I'm not interested in a-lenses. Been there, done that; prefer the image without one. Will hold out for a brighter projector...

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post #5289 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 03:41 AM
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Does 147 nits measured from a 100" screen sound about right for RS2000?
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post #5290 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post
Well, without wanting to start a fight with anybody, I'm not interested in a-lenses. Been there, done that; prefer the image without one. Will hold out for a brighter projector...
That's fair enough, it was just a thought for the least painful way to add a fair bit of brightness. FWIW I had similar reservations about adding an A-lens back in, after getting rid of my Prismasonic years ago, and was ready to send the DCR straight back if I saw even the slightest loss in resolution or other negative artefact. However it was a completely different animal to the Prismasonic - it's without compromise in my set-up it just adds usable brightness without any negative consequence.
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post #5291 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 03:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post
Outputting SDR2020, yes.







It does.



The default settings were pretty good on previous firmwares, but the recent changes "broke" that leaving me with a dull image. Only way to get back to where I was, without blowing out colours etc, is to adjust RATIO, SHAPE and TRANSITION away from their defaults, with custom settings for both HIGH and LOW ranges. With those adjustments made the image is once again back to where it was and very good looking. All I'm saying is that I, and perhaps others, need those adjustments available... "hidden" in an expert mode is fine, just as long as they are there.



The problem with low nits displays, in my experience, is that you cannot aim for a MAX LIGHT of 4 x nits, which I think is the current recommended starting point for projectors, and which I guess the defaults are predicated upon. That setting (200) on my projector results in a bright image but with lots of blown colours and an artificial looking image. Raising MAX LIGHT is the solution, but then the defaults no longer look good.
Even around 300 DML I find a bit too clipped in lots of content with the default settings, so I sympathise...

It is a massive shame that the only way as projection consumers that we have of getting 4k and WCG is to also take the bitter pill that is the consumer HDR transfers which really are wholly unsuitable. Shame there isn't a service that would allow access to the DCP packages for back catalog.

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post #5292 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by jrp View Post
Again, thanks for all the praise for the new DTM version. We are thrilled with how positive the comments are. And for those with issues for the 080919 release, we hope to have a release with an improved FPGA this week.
Hope you release it this week as my Lumagen Install is on Monday by Adam Peltz and it will be great that he can install the latest version on my Sony VW5000 - Kaleidescape Mix which looks to be most problematic.

On a separate note - since the Lumagen does not have IP access - as you recommend the changes in settings with new firmwares - how do electronically challenged people like me dial in these settings? Call their dealer/calibrator and they would walk the user through the tweaks??

Thanks in advance.
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post #5293 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Hope you release it this week as my Lumagen Install is on Monday by Adam Peltz and it will be great that he can install the latest version on my Sony VW5000 - Kaleidescape Mix which looks to be most problematic.

On a separate note - since the Lumagen does not have IP access - as you recommend the changes in settings with new firmwares - how do electronically challenged people like me dial in these settings? Call their dealer/calibrator and they would walk the user through the tweaks??

Thanks in advance.
Two options that I can think of:
1. Call dealer and they walk you through updating the settings. Not too bad really depending on the changes. Kris Deering recently did this for me.
2. Download your configuration. Email the file to your dealer. They update and send it back. You would have to upload back into your Pro. Not really much different then updating firmware.
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post #5294 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
Two options that I can think of:
1. Call dealer and they walk you through updating the settings. Not too bad really depending on the changes. Kris Deering recently did this for me.
2. Download your configuration. Email the file to your dealer. They update and send it back. You would have to upload back into your Pro. Not really much different then updating firmware.



I have done the second option for many clients in UK and beyond...quite simple with a windows laptop or a mac running parallels etc
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post #5295 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post
With my JVC 4500 (Z1) I only get ~50 nits on screen (big screen/low gain) and definitely need all the DTM controls in order to get a decent "HDR" image. Default settings, with current firmwares, do not work for me at all. So while it might be safe to say that the current Lumagen defaults are looking good on most displays, they don't work for every display and so, please do not remove access to the full set of DTM settings: an expert mode is fine, as long as there is some way to get to all the parameters...
While 50 nits does present limitations in overall brightness, you should be able to get a nice looking image without any artifacts. I offer remote setup/tweaking of the Lumagen so am available if you need help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Watched “ Shazam “ tonight on 4K Blu-ray. The picture was jaw dropping good and DTM worked extremely well. Your calibration Kris is outstanding! No issues here.
Glad to hear it is looking so good! The new DTM helps a lot with that movie, especially in the darker scenes like the opening sequence.

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Originally Posted by FenceMan View Post
Does 147 nits measured from a 100" screen sound about right for RS2000?
Sounds about right to me, more than enough light to make HDR look great. Would even consider dialing down your iris to increase contrast since you have headroom. Remember, HDR isn't about being bright, it is about increased dynamic range. You can't make a projector look like a flat panel, but going too bright can compromise the range you have available to the image.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
Two options that I can think of:
1. Call dealer and they walk you through updating the settings. Not too bad really depending on the changes. Kris Deering recently did this for me.
2. Download your configuration. Email the file to your dealer. They update and send it back. You would have to upload back into your Pro. Not really much different then updating firmware.
Speaking of which, once you move to the new firmware we need to tweak your settings!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Hope you release it this week as my Lumagen Install is on Monday by Adam Peltz and it will be great that he can install the latest version on my Sony VW5000 - Kaleidescape Mix which looks to be most problematic.

On a separate note - since the Lumagen does not have IP access - as you recommend the changes in settings with new firmwares - how do electronically challenged people like me dial in these settings? Call their dealer/calibrator and they would walk the user through the tweaks??

Thanks in advance.
Your dealer or someone else should be able to help you remotely when it comes to updating settings. That is part of supporting a product. At a minimum they should familiarize you with how to do firmware updates or how to download your profile so they can work on it remotely.
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post #5296 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
On a separate note - since the Lumagen does not have IP access - as you recommend the changes in settings with new firmwares - how do electronically challenged people like me dial in these settings? Call their dealer/calibrator and they would walk the user through the tweaks??

Thanks in advance.
Craig Rounds did my calibration and after I installed the new update, he walked me through (via phone) which buttons to push on the remote to make the necessary changes.
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post #5297 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
While 50 nits does present limitations in overall brightness, you should be able to get a nice looking image without any artifacts. I offer remote setup/tweaking of the Lumagen so am available if you need help.
Thanks, Kris. Noted.

The image in my bat cave is generally stunning, even with the limited brightness (still ~14fL, so plenty bright for me) depending on the source, of course. Lumagen, as always, has been the key that unlocks the best possible image.
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post #5298 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

Speaking of which, once you move to the new firmware we need to tweak your settings!
Just updated. Picture looks great. I’ve been using the 4K HDR movie Hunter Killer. The dark underwater sub scenes are really difficult but handled well with DTM... SJ
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post #5299 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Stability issues definitely sound Sony related. I installed the latest on several JVC's over the weekend and used it on mine with zero issues. I have one client that had an issue with a JVC so far, others haven't said a peep. I'm sure Jim and Pat will have a look soon to try and dial in the FPGA a bit more.
Hence my question on also having a Sony PJ to test with.
Sony and JVC are the majority used those also having a Radiance, so it makes sense to have a test device available.

Additionally it would allow tuning tips to be provided by Lumagen.
Just saying, doesn't have to be a 5000

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New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series

I’d love to thank @Krisde ering for his great service to dial up my DTM setup before the DTM I was happy with the result that I have from the IM very happy but when the DTM arrive got a conflict between good and bad image so from this thread I reach kris and provide the right info he need he made the right modification and send back the file and every thing has change and I play the scenes that I was not happy with and really his service is outstanding

Now I can setback and enjoy

also I want to thanks @GordonF raser he is the man how let me enter the world of lumagen

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@Gordon Fraser


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post #5301 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Watched “ Shazam “ tonight on 4K Blu-ray. The picture was jaw dropping good and DTM worked extremely well. Your calibration Kris is outstanding! No issues here.


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post #5302 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jrp View Post
For projectors for the recent DTM release we ended up with results such that you set the High-Set Max Light equal to about four times the measured projector maximum light output. To set this, leave the High-set Ratio = 0, and set the CMS1->HDR Mapping->Max Light to four times your measured maximum brightness. With High-set Ratio = 0 the reading on screen in CMS1->HDR Mapping, is the High-set "effective display max light" value. If you change Ratio, the HDR Mapping->Max Light is not the effective value. So leave Ratio = 0 unless you have a good reason not to. The best multiple varies based on personal taste, but this is a good starting point.

Note that if you have a "light cannon" and are getting, say, 400 nits, you will likely want to drop this to about 3X. However, I cannot afford a Light Cannon to get 400 nits on our 14 foot diagonal screen, and so this is an estimate.

Press OK to accept and then Save your changes.

Remember changes to CMS1->HDR Mapping affect all inputs and input memories at factory settings since it is an Output CMS menu and all inputs and all input memories point to CMS1 for HDR source by default.

======

For the Low Set Ratio, set it to about 2 times your measured light output. For our RS4500 at 85 nits, with Max Light = 350, I need to set Ratio to 20 to approximate an Effective Display Max Light of about 170. A Ratio of 20 cuts the Effective Light in about half of the Max Light if High-set Ratio = 0. The default of 15 is roughly 0.6 * Max Light for Low-set effective Display Max Light, which also works well.

To figure out the Effective Max Light for the Low Set, go to the "left arrow" parameter menu, and make sure it is showing the Low-set. This is reported on the bottom line. Or if you are not sure, if you have not made an adjustment you can know this since Ratio defaults to 15 for the Low-set and 0 for the High-set. Then turn DTM Off temporarily, and go to the Ratio column.

When you are on the Ratio column in Static mode the line below the Ratio number shows the "effective display max light" value after taking into account the Ratio. Wish we had made this an add/subtract to make it easy to calculate but it is a change to the Ratio, but we didn't. So you have to go to Static mode to see the effective Display Max Light. Once adjusted, again enable DTM. Press OK to accept any changes.

Remember the parameter menu is an input menu. So it applies to one input and one input memory. If you have multiple sources you need copy to inputs and/or input memories you want to propagate the changes to. Save your changes.

=======

After viewing some material you may choose to make changes to the above. Certainly reasonable since this is going to vary to some degree based on personal preference. However for projectors in the 70 to 140 nit range I believe this is a excellent starting point and you may well agree with me that they are good final settings.

=======

I have do more work to do to get my recommendations for TVs updated. I am planning to buy an OLED to have in the Lumagen Demo Theater to compare DTM results using our RS4500 image versus the OLED, and to come up with some better recommendations for bright TVs. Not sure when this will happen but stay tuned.
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We are working on a new update to the DTM release.

Note that from a Tone Mapping perspective 071919, 072019, and 072119 are identical. The only changes were to remove some unwanted debug code. With the debug code left in the release (071919, 072019) you might have seen some bad frame flips, or screen tearing, but the processing is the same.

=====

After my post on comparing STM to DTM, we investigated why STM was brighter than DTM, when this should not have been the case. The fact that Static Tone Mapping (STM) was brighter than Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM) in these three release was due to some DTM code being active in STM. This was making STM incorrectly brighter by effectively reducing the Max Light value. While a specific scene looked brighter and so some might have thought it looked better, if one analysed a lot of content the user would have increased Max Light to optimize different content and negated the incorrect brightness increase. DTM should always be as bright (bright scenes near the STM MaxCLL) or brighter (dark scenes) since the scene's MaxCLL is lower than, or equal to, the movies MaxCLL. We will have this correction in the next release.

=====

In a previous post I mentioned the Low-set "effective Display Max Light" being set to approximately two times the measured nits of the projector, and the CMS1 Max Light being set to approximately four times the measured nits (with High-set Ratio = 0). This was based on a lot of evaluation by myself, Kris Deering and others. After my recommendation post Kris did a lot more evaluation on content with 072119. Based on his results the Low-Set recommendation is the same, but we are changing the CMS1 "Max Light" multiplier recommendation to "in the range of four to eight times the measured light in nits." This requires some further explanation.

With the CMS1 Max Light at four times the measured light, images are brighter than at an eight times multiple. In contrast the eight times multiple, while darker, preserves more color saturation in bright objects. This can improve the detail in bright saturated colors. So this means user preference comes into play choosing to either maximize brightness, or maximize bright color saturation, or balance these two objectives. I have increased our Demo Theater multiple to about five after doing more evaluation, and I think Kris is liking the Max Light multiple of around eight.

=====

The next release will have a few other improvements for scenes Kris found. So it will be even better than the previous 072119 release.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
Concerning comments on removing Shape and Transition:

We have for several months been considering adding an "Expert" mode for HDR tone mapping now that we have Dynamic Tone Mapping working so well. With Static Tone Mapping all the control parameters made sense to expose to allow users to tweak the settings for different movies. Now with DTM both Kris and I are finding that changing them does not improve the image quality and can certainly hurt image quality poorly adjusted when using DTM.

As an aside DTM is now at the stage that we are recommending you set DLev = 8. This ignores the Static Metadata for DTM. This helps improve dark scenes like those in Blade Runner 2049 since blending with the STM MaxCLL is not holding the scene MaxCLL up to a higher level and preventing the scene from getting as dark as it should.

Note that a slight change to Shape or Tran can help a particular scene, but it would then hurt other content. We are finding the defaults give excellent image quality for all content. For an Expert Mode we would not remove the settings, but would only show them in Expert Mode to prevent those who do not know how they work from hurting image quality.

We will likely change the default Low-set Ratio to 24 based on a typical projector and what we are seeing with the current DTM implementation. However, 15 still looks excellent and gives a bit more headroom for dark scenes, but 24 gives a brighter image (to an appropriate level for dark scenes IMO).

Several have noted now that DTM settings required are only CMS1->HDR Mapping->Max Light (for very bright scenes), and the Low-set Ratio (to adjust effective-display-max-light for dark scenes). We agree with this assessment.

If we add the expert mode, the defaults would be (as of today):

- Max Light in CMS1->HDR Mapping menu as it is now. Set by user
- Low-Set Ratio in the left parameter menu. Shows effective-max-light. Set by user
- DTM would always be on (but not shown). No reason to use STM anymore
- DLev = 8 (but not shown)
- Ratio = 24 for Low-set (shown), and 0 for High-set (not shown)
- Shape = current defaults (not shown)
- Tran = current defaults (not shown)
- Gamma = 0 (not shown)
- Black = 0 (not shown)
- Crossover value is not used for DTM (not shown)
- Default Max is not needed for DTM (not shown)

In "Expert mode" we would likely have the same look as in the current release.

Not in a rush to do this but it makes sense.

===============

I gave some suggestions for Max Light and Low-Set Effective Max Light in a previous post. Those still hold but we have refined the suggestions as shown below. Note that the following recommendations are for projectors:

Enable DTM

Set DLev = 8

Set Max Light in the range of 5 to 6 times the measured white level in nits. You can extend this range to 4 to 8 times measured white if you prefer but we are finding 5 to 6 is optimal. Using five gives slightly more brightness and 6 gives slightly more color saturation

Set the Low-set Effective Max Light to two times the measured white level in nits. You can vary this a bit but stay close to 2x. This will mean Low-set Ratio is typically in the range of 15 to 28. The effective max light is now shown even in DTM mode when on the Ratio column

Leave other HDR Tone Mapping parameters at default values.

=======

As a side note, I had Max Light at 350 to 400, and Low-set Ratio = 15, for STM, and now for DTM I have Max Light = 350 to 400 and Ratio = 24 (but 15 still looks excellent). So while you might want to tweak Tone Mapping parameters I believe we have met our goal of "no required changes" from the STM settings for excellent performance with DTM. I know this audience will want to tweak, but I can assure our non-tweak customers that they do not need to change any Tone Mapping settings to get excellent results with DTM.

=======

I am planning to work with our LG OLED and hopefully come up with some recommendations for TVs.

=======

Again, thanks for all the praise for the new DTM version. We are thrilled with how positive the comments are. And for those with issues for the 080919 release, we hope to have a release with an improved FPGA this week.
Here are Jim's recent posts about DTM, all in one place.

You're welcome.

Mark
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post #5303 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
With the output Colorspace = HDR2020, you are doing tone mapping twice (in the Pro and the in projector/TV). This is not a good situation.

However, some have made it work but turning down the projector/TV tone mapping and setting Max Light to the 2000 to 3000 range. If you do not turn down the projector/TV tone mapping you really need the Max Light at 10000 - the full HDR range since that is likely what the projector/TV is assuming.

If you can turn the projector/TV's tone mapping down enough to be able to use Max Light in the 2000 range the Pro can do some tone mapping for content mastered to 3000 nits and higher.

That said there are some tricks you can do with a calibration to partially diminsh the projector/TV's tone mapping. I have some ideas I plan to test (just bought a LG OLED for this and other testing). Kris Deering has some tricks for this case as well that he could do if you hire him to calibrate.

In general projectors should have output Colorspace = SDR2020. If a TV does not allow the same light output for SDR input mode as for HDR input mode, it may be best to set Pro output Colorspace = HDR2020. In this case you might find double tone mapping to have issues and the only choice then would be to turn off the Radiance Pro tone mapping and use the TVs tone mapping. Or the above balancing the Pro and TV tone mapping may work best. If you are like many and are happy with the light output of your TV in SDR2020 mode, then you would set up as I have discussed, as shown in the Radiance Pro manual and the set-up slide set.
Thanks for the input, Jim.

I do have the 2017 LG's Dynamic Tone Mapping feature (called Dynamic Contrast on this TV) set to "Off". I don't know how to turn off the static tone mapping on the TV. I do remember everyone say not to touch the OLED light setting, as it affects the tone mapping. I am eagerly awaiting your OLED recommendations, now that you have one.

The measured max white light for my panel is 613 Nits, so if we go by your projector recommendations, setting CMS Max Light to 6X would be 3,678 Nits. I will try this next time I am watching the set just to see how it looks.

Mark

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I have a question for all the Lumagen Radiance Pro owners who also have a JVC RS3000/2000/1000 projector.

Is the advantage of Dynamic Tone Mapping really enough to justify the price in terms of picture improvement and convenience?

Do you output HDR10 from the Lumagen to the JVC and still use the JVCs internal tone mapping (ie double tone mapping) or do you output SDR2020 from the Lumagen and set the JVC to a particular gamma curve?

I am thinking of adding this to my setup but the price tag has caused me to hesitate as to whether or not it would do that much to add to the picture quality of my RS3000 when watching HDR 4k Blu-ray movies.

Also does the Lumagen automatically detect incoming signals and apply the appropriate processing for each? (ie Can I output HDMI 1080p satellite signals to the Lumagen and have it upscale and motion process those signals and then later switch over to Blu-ray to have the Lumagen perform dynamic tone mapping on 4k HDR content without having to manually switch the Lumagen over to a different setting)

I want to be able to just put it inline with all my video content and allow it to perform different processing depending on the source and type of content being viewed.
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post #5305 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 06:09 PM
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Thanks Kris for assisting with my machinations and ruminations regarding the latest firmware, and to Jim and Patrick for the significant improvements.
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post #5306 of 8030 Old 08-21-2019, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
I have a question for all the Lumagen Radiance Pro owners who also have a JVC RS3000/2000/1000 projector.

Is the advantage of Dynamic Tone Mapping really enough to justify the price in terms of picture improvement and convenience?

Do you output HDR10 from the Lumagen to the JVC and still use the JVCs internal tone mapping (ie double tone mapping) or do you output SDR2020 from the Lumagen and set the JVC to a particular gamma curve?

I am thinking of adding this to my setup but the price tag has caused me to hesitate as to whether or not it would do that much to add to the picture quality of my RS3000 when watching HDR 4k Blu-ray movies.

Also does the Lumagen automatically detect incoming signals and apply the appropriate processing for each? (ie Can I output HDMI 1080p satellite signals to the Lumagen and have it upscale and motion process those signals and then later switch over to Blu-ray to have the Lumagen perform dynamic tone mapping on 4k HDR content without having to manually switch the Lumagen over to a different setting)

I want to be able to just put it inline with all my video content and allow it to perform different processing depending on the source and type of content being viewed.
I have a 4500/DCR lens/ Lumagen Pro combo. I know it’s not the 2000 or 3000 but it’s similar.
I was reluctant to spend the money to purchase the Lumagen also.
I finally did and the DTM alone is worth the price ( not to mention the incredible company support as they keep improving it).
To top it off I had Kris Deering come and calibrate my projector ( using both auto cal and the Lumagen ) and he set up my Lumagen to auto select the aspect ratio along with SDR and HDR. The Lumagen basically is “ plug and play” now. I basically just select something to watch and hit play.
The picture is absolutely incredible- I keep appreciating it more every time I watch.
I would highly recommend if you do decide to buy it you get in touch with Kris (he has a 3000) or someone else who knows how to calibrate and set it up ( not sure where you are located) to get the most out of your purchases ( projector and Lumagen).
There really is nothing quite like a professional calibration by a highly capable calibrator ( well worth the extra expense).
I have to say the Lumagen is one of the best video purchases I’ve ever made if not the best.
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post #5307 of 8030 Old 08-22-2019, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
I have a question for all the Lumagen Radiance Pro owners who also have a JVC RS3000/2000/1000 projector.

Is the advantage of Dynamic Tone Mapping really enough to justify the price in terms of picture improvement and convenience?

Do you output HDR10 from the Lumagen to the JVC and still use the JVCs internal tone mapping (ie double tone mapping) or do you output SDR2020 from the Lumagen and set the JVC to a particular gamma curve?

I am thinking of adding this to my setup but the price tag has caused me to hesitate as to whether or not it would do that much to add to the picture quality of my RS3000 when watching HDR 4k Blu-ray movies.

Also does the Lumagen automatically detect incoming signals and apply the appropriate processing for each? (ie Can I output HDMI 1080p satellite signals to the Lumagen and have it upscale and motion process those signals and then later switch over to Blu-ray to have the Lumagen perform dynamic tone mapping on 4k HDR content without having to manually switch the Lumagen over to a different setting)

I want to be able to just put it inline with all my video content and allow it to perform different processing depending on the source and type of content being viewed.

Once set up the Lumagen will recognise the incoming signal type and will automatically optimise the image for dynamic range and colour fidelity for the display system.



The Lumagen does the tone mapping and can send several different colourspaces to the display. Whether it would be SDR2020 depends on the method the calibrator or installer chooses to use in your specific system. The JVC would not be using any HDR EOTF. It would be on an SDR style preset with gamma 2.4


As to value for money. Well , that is a personal thing and it is different for different folk. I can say that the very first N9 i did in UK i spent several hours optimising the calibration of the projector for the client, then afterwards he asked if could show him what the Radiance Pro did ( i was not there to install a Pro, only to do calibration). The clients jaw hit the floor and he was stunned at the difference. As i left he asked me to tell him the soonest i could return to install a unit for him. So for him there was an obvious cost to performance benefit. This is not an uncommon scenario for me.


Gordon
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post #5308 of 8030 Old 08-22-2019, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
Can I output HDMI 1080p satellite signals to the Lumagen and have it upscale and motion process those signals and then later switch over to Blu-ray to have the Lumagen perform dynamic tone mapping on 4k HDR content without having to manually switch the Lumagen over to a different setting)
Just a note that from what I understand there isn't any motion processing of note in the Lumagen available to a 1080p signal. That sort of thing usually is best done in the display as quite often there is black frame insertion, panel drive tweaks and other things which you can't do over HDMI and rely on knowledge of the particular display tech.
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post #5309 of 8030 Old 08-22-2019, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
I have a question for all the Lumagen Radiance Pro owners who also have a JVC RS3000/2000/1000 projector.

Is the advantage of Dynamic Tone Mapping really enough to justify the price in terms of picture improvement and convenience?

Do you output HDR10 from the Lumagen to the JVC and still use the JVCs internal tone mapping (ie double tone mapping) or do you output SDR2020 from the Lumagen and set the JVC to a particular gamma curve?

I am thinking of adding this to my setup but the price tag has caused me to hesitate as to whether or not it would do that much to add to the picture quality of my RS3000 when watching HDR 4k Blu-ray movies.

Also does the Lumagen automatically detect incoming signals and apply the appropriate processing for each? (ie Can I output HDMI 1080p satellite signals to the Lumagen and have it upscale and motion process those signals and then later switch over to Blu-ray to have the Lumagen perform dynamic tone mapping on 4k HDR content without having to manually switch the Lumagen over to a different setting)

I want to be able to just put it inline with all my video content and allow it to perform different processing depending on the source and type of content being viewed.
Yes it is worth it on my RS2000. As far as your questions on signal detection, you just need to change inputs. I had been running with multiple controls for a long time as I hated my harmony. Finally broke down to program a harmony. Switch from PS4 (4k) -> Switch (1080p) -> Shield (4K/1080p and multiple color spaces) is painless.
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post #5310 of 8030 Old 08-22-2019, 07:46 AM
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Does anybody have experience using the Lumagen auto aspect function with a Control4 set up? My needs are fairly simple. Currently I do not use auto aspect, and when I am watching a 2.35 aspect ratio movie I use the Control4 remote to activate a macro, which zooms my Sony 5000 lens and removes my masking panels. When I am watching a 1.78 aspect ratio movie I use the Control4 remote, manually, to activate another macro, which zooms out the Sony 5000 lens and puts the side masking panels back in place.

This isn’t exactly a hardship, but it would be nice to use a serial cable between the radiance Pro and the Control4 HC 800 to automate this process. Is this easy to do? Or, to put it another way, does the Control4 serial driver allow use of a customized macro?

I have seen other posts that are several years old that say the serial driver is limited and to stack and IP driver on top of the serial driver, but I am not entirely clear how that would work. Any help would be appreciated!
anyone?
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