New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 183 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5461 of 5516 Old 09-06-2019, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Try with AA is set to "Image" and not "Image+HDMI". I recall someone (maybe @Gordon Fraser ) mentioning that the HDMI metadata causes issues with AA for some set top boxes.
Thanks for the suggestion but I already have it set to Image, I am wondering if its something in the black bars on Directv....
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post #5462 of 5516 Old 09-07-2019, 05:55 AM
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Given how DTM has changed, what are most people now targeting as peak white nits prior to calibration, for a projector.

Previously under IM I targeted around 50FtL/170nits. With DTM, I see from some of the comments that many people are now targeting lower peak nits. Owning a JVC, I can of course clamp down the iris and get more native contrast if a lower peak target is ideal.

So I was just wondering what the general consensus is, if a wide range of target peak nits is readily available, what is the optimum?
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post #5463 of 5516 Old 09-07-2019, 12:32 PM
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Some questions for Sony 5000 owners:

I dont have a huge screen-- 120" wide at 2.4 AR, with a throw of 18'. Ken W measured 123.5 nits. What is everyone using for their Display Max Light and DTM settings? I had been choosing 300 nits as display max light, but also note that Jim P and others using JVC, which should be less bright than the Sony, are setting Max Light at 400.

Jim stated "Set Max Light in the range of 5 to 6 times the measured white level in nits. You can extend this range to 4 to 8 times measured white if you prefer but we are finding 5 to 6 is optimal. Using five gives slightly more brightness and 6 gives slightly more color saturation." Given what was measured, these ranges would equate to ~ 500-1000 (4-8x), or, using the optimal range of 5-6x would result in ~600-750.

However, elsewhere I read: "you set the High-Set Max Light equal to about four times the measured projector maximum light output. To set this, leave the High-set Ratio = 0, and set the CMS1->HDR Mapping->Max Light to four times your measured maximum brightness. With High-set Ratio = 0 the reading on screen in CMS1->HDR Mapping, is the High-set "effective display max light" value".

These seem to be contradictory- in one place the Display Max light should be set from 4-8x measured, and optimally 5-6x measured, and then subsequently it says to make this value 4x measured.

So, in my case, measured at 123.5 nits, do I set display max light to 500 (more accurately 490)?



And, for the Sony users, what is the consensus on:

DLev (I understand Jim now suggests setting this to 8 in order to fully ignore Static MaxCLL)

Ratio This one still confuses me. I read Jim's suggestion to an earlier post "For the VW995 Max Light = 200 is likely too low unless you have a very large screen and/or low gain. For a dark movie it would work but for a bright movie like "The Meg" you will find colors are not going to look as good, especially for flesh tones. I think you need to raise Max Light and then raise Ratio so the low end effective Max Light is about 2X your light output in nits. With a higher Max Light and a ratio of 15 to 24, I believe you will get better performance across the wide range of movie brightness levels.
"
Set the Low-set Effective Max Light to two times the measured white level in nits. You can vary this a bit but stay close to 2x. This will mean Low-set Ratio is typically in the range of 15 to 28. The effective max light is now shown even in DTM mode when on the Ratio column. Sorry for a dumb question, but how/where does one see this? What are Sony users finding for this value? And, I should therefore target a ration where my max light at the selected ratio is ~ 247? Jim suggests 15-24, but said he thinks 24 is better now.

And, per above, high set ratio should be 0, right?

I can’t find the default values for these, and would rather not ‘reset to defaults’ globally because I have tweaked gamma and black levels. What are defaults for the following, and does anyone use settings other than default with good effect?

Shape

Transition

Gamma

Black

I like to use the MEM ABCD to quickly toggle between a few presets (eg Mem D might have gamma 1, black -1 to increase apparent contrast/improve apparent black levels). Am I correct that the setting I might want to play around with the most is Ratio? My recollection from Jim’s recent comments was that changing shape and transition would likely cause more harm than good.

Finally, I believe the default settings breaks low end at source max <2000 and high end at >2000. Does everyone leave this at default? If not, what value is used and how is it changed?

Sorry for so many questions but would love to wrap my head around all of this, short of trial and eror.
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post #5464 of 5516 Old 09-07-2019, 11:15 PM
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msleb:

I am pretty sure the recommendation of 4X for Max Light predates the 5 to 6, and was for an earlier release. Does not really matter at this point. With current DTM we believe people may vary in their personal preference and choose something in the range of 4x (brighter) to 8x (more color saturation) for Max Light. As I mentioned after much experimentation I am at about 5.5x. So this is somewhat "trial and error" as you suggest, but this is important so you can optimize to your personal preference.

The 2X nits settings for Low-set "effective Display Max Light" seems to be a good number with less variance than the CMS Max Light.

=====

Note that for DTM, the "Cross Over Point" used for Static Tone Mapping is not used at all.

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post #5465 of 5516 Old 09-08-2019, 08:00 AM
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Hi, a complete newbie question, sorry for it being so basic.
Got the Lumagen Radiance pro 4446 installed and working great.
Tried to upgrade the firmware. Connected the supplied USB cable from my computer (windows 10) to the back of the Lumagen.
Executed the upgrade program. It asks me to select a 'com' port.
The instruction manual says I should find the associated com port under the device manager. No luck, couldn't find anything there.
Tried rebooting both devices (Lumagen and my laptop) - still no change.
Tried running the firmware upgrade program, attempting all displayed com-ports (16 in total) - failed to connect to the Lumagen on any of them.
What am I missing?
Thanks!
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post #5466 of 5516 Old 09-08-2019, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaharT View Post
Hi, a complete newbie question, sorry for it being so basic.
Got the Lumagen Radiance pro 4446 installed and working great.
Tried to upgrade the firmware. Connected the supplied USB cable from my computer (windows 10) to the back of the Lumagen.
Executed the upgrade program. It asks me to select a 'com' port.
The instruction manual says I should find the associated com port under the device manager. No luck, couldn't find anything there.
Tried rebooting both devices (Lumagen and my laptop) - still no change.
Tried running the firmware upgrade program, attempting all displayed com-ports (16 in total) - failed to connect to the Lumagen on any of them.
What am I missing?
Thanks!

Assume you're following Tech Tip 6. Worse case, either the Lumagen's physical port or associated electronics or more likely the cable you have is not performing as intended (you can verify this by testing it with an external powered hard drive, if you have one, that uses USB-B connector).



Try the following to see if the Lumagen is being "seen" by Windows 10: ensure that the Lumagen is powered on (might want to disconnect power and reconnect, just to ensure all is well with the unit, and you're able to see input to your monitor, and use the remotes Menu button to get details). Then plug the supplied USB cable into your computer as well as Lumagen, and power it up the computer. Device manager should show that the Lumagen is using a Com port. If not, it's likely the cable is bad, so try another. If the cable is fine and you've been able to validate that your computer can communicate via the USB connection to another USB device (e.g. disk drive) then it's possible the Lumagen's physical port isn't working. By the way, under normal conditions, even when the Lumagen is not on (that is the system has not booted up) the Windows system should still "see" that the USB cable is connected to the Lumagen and show in Device Manager a Com port line item and under USB there should be an entry for some sort of serial converter I believe.



All comes down to a process of elimination...





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Last edited by sjschaff; 09-08-2019 at 08:52 AM.
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post #5467 of 5516 Old 09-08-2019, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaharT View Post
Connected the supplied USB cable from my computer (windows 10) to the back of the Lumagen.
Executed the upgrade program. It asks me to select a 'com' port.
The instruction manual says I should find the associated com port under the device manager. No luck, couldn't find anything there.
Tried rebooting both devices (Lumagen and my laptop) - still no change.
Tried running the firmware upgrade program, attempting all displayed com-ports (16 in total) - failed to connect to the Lumagen on any of them.
What am I missing?
You could try to install the latest FTDI driver. This worked for me.
https://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/VCP.htm
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post #5468 of 5516 Old 09-08-2019, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
You could try to install the latest FTDI driver. This worked for me.
https://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/VCP.htm
Thanks so much! Issue solved. Firmware upgrade done.
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post #5469 of 5516 Old 09-08-2019, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msleb View Post
Some questions for Sony 5000 owners:

I dont have a huge screen-- 120" wide at 2.4 AR, with a throw of 18'. Ken W measured 123.5 nits. What is everyone using for their Display Max Light and DTM settings? I had been choosing 300 nits as display max light, but also note that Jim P and others using JVC, which should be less bright than the Sony, are setting Max Light at 400.

Jim stated "Set Max Light in the range of 5 to 6 times the measured white level in nits. You can extend this range to 4 to 8 times measured white if you prefer but we are finding 5 to 6 is optimal. Using five gives slightly more brightness and 6 gives slightly more color saturation." Given what was measured, these ranges would equate to ~ 500-1000 (4-8x), or, using the optimal range of 5-6x would result in ~600-750.

However, elsewhere I read: "you set the High-Set Max Light equal to about four times the measured projector maximum light output. To set this, leave the High-set Ratio = 0, and set the CMS1->HDR Mapping->Max Light to four times your measured maximum brightness. With High-set Ratio = 0 the reading on screen in CMS1->HDR Mapping, is the High-set "effective display max light" value".

These seem to be contradictory- in one place the Display Max light should be set from 4-8x measured, and optimally 5-6x measured, and then subsequently it says to make this value 4x measured.

So, in my case, measured at 123.5 nits, do I set display max light to 500 (more accurately 490)?



And, for the Sony users, what is the consensus on:

DLev (I understand Jim now suggests setting this to 8 in order to fully ignore Static MaxCLL)

Ratio This one still confuses me. I read Jim's suggestion to an earlier post "For the VW995 Max Light = 200 is likely too low unless you have a very large screen and/or low gain. For a dark movie it would work but for a bright movie like "The Meg" you will find colors are not going to look as good, especially for flesh tones. I think you need to raise Max Light and then raise Ratio so the low end effective Max Light is about 2X your light output in nits. With a higher Max Light and a ratio of 15 to 24, I believe you will get better performance across the wide range of movie brightness levels.
"
Set the Low-set Effective Max Light to two times the measured white level in nits. You can vary this a bit but stay close to 2x. This will mean Low-set Ratio is typically in the range of 15 to 28. The effective max light is now shown even in DTM mode when on the Ratio column. Sorry for a dumb question, but how/where does one see this? What are Sony users finding for this value? And, I should therefore target a ration where my max light at the selected ratio is ~ 247? Jim suggests 15-24, but said he thinks 24 is better now.

And, per above, high set ratio should be 0, right?

I can’t find the default values for these, and would rather not ‘reset to defaults’ globally because I have tweaked gamma and black levels. What are defaults for the following, and does anyone use settings other than default with good effect?

Shape

Transition

Gamma

Black

I like to use the MEM ABCD to quickly toggle between a few presets (eg Mem D might have gamma 1, black -1 to increase apparent contrast/improve apparent black levels). Am I correct that the setting I might want to play around with the most is Ratio? My recollection from Jim’s recent comments was that changing shape and transition would likely cause more harm than good.

Finally, I believe the default settings breaks low end at source max <2000 and high end at >2000. Does everyone leave this at default? If not, what value is used and how is it changed?

Sorry for so many questions but would love to wrap my head around all of this, short of trial and eror.
I have a Sony 995. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I ended up setting Display Max Light at 400 (about 5xlight output in nits). The next most important
setting in my opinion is low end effective Ratio, and I set that to 23 following jrp's recommendation to have effective Max Light at 2xlight output in nits. You can see the effective Max Light at the Lumagen menu for setting the Ratio, it's shown as a "commentary line".
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post #5470 of 5516 Old 09-09-2019, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by jrp View Post
This is not normal. However, note that this might be scene-specific. The Radiance Pro DTM analyzes each scene. So for a given set of parameters a 500 nit scene in a 1000 nit movies should look similar to a 500 nit scene in a 4000 nit movie, but a 100 nit scene in the 4000 nit movie can look darker than a 500 nit scene in a 1000 nit movie.

As a suggestion, go into the MENU->Options->HDR Setup on latest release and reset the HDR parameters to default. The set the "DLev" = 8 so that the movies reported MaxCLL is not affecting the brightness (this is a recent change in our recommendation). Then use a bright movie (for example Mad Max Fury Road at 28:29, or "The Meg" in a bright scene) and set the MENU->Output->CMSs->CMS1->HDR Mapping->Max Light appropriately.

After doing this look a scenes from 1000 nit movies and 4000 nit movies to see if scenes with similar MaxCLL values look similar. You can see the current frame's MaxCLL and MaxY using the debug command MENU 0532 "Live" mode. The best comparison may be for scenes with a MaxY of about 500.
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post
Jim, I would just like to confirm the recommended workflow is to turn on DTM and set DLev to 8 prior to setting the CMS Max Light?

Thanks.

Mark
Jim?
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post #5471 of 5516 Old 09-09-2019, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
You could try to install the latest FTDI driver. This worked for me.
https://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/VCP.htm

This surprises me. Would have thought that Win10, assuming updated to latest level, would include the necessary serial to USB signal support for all current and legacy systems that can run Win10.
Guess I've been spending far too much time in the Apple world this past decade to recall the days of fixing your own automobile, that is Windows. I only use Windows for the "odd" unsupported app these days under Boot Camp.


Maybe some day Lumagen will have a Mac version...








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post #5472 of 5516 Old 09-09-2019, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_H View Post
Brightness and contrast are separate from DTM in that DTM sits ON TOP of your normal calibration and maps the HDR onto your underlying calibration.
Correct, however the S-M disc allows patterns for 1000 or 4000 nits depending on the display. Being a PJ I immediately went to the 1000 nit selection for the patterns, but then got curious if I should have another saved preset and use the 4000 nit patterns and save it to use for 4000 nit mastered movies...

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post #5473 of 5516 Old 09-09-2019, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Correct, however the S-M disc allows patterns for 1000 or 4000 nits depending on the display. Being a PJ I immediately went to the 1000 nit selection for the patterns, but then got curious if I should have another saved preset and use the 4000 nit patterns and save it to use for 4000 nit mastered movies...
You *could* use seperate CMS memories to do this, but whether you'd gain anything PQ-wise, I don't think so. And the big downside is you'd have to manually select the CMS after checking the mastering level...
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post #5474 of 5516 Old 09-10-2019, 09:52 AM
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I currently use Madvr so only my mkv rips (which is like 60% of what I watch) have the improvements it offers.

I was curious about what the same could do for my other sources, namely HDTV and AppleTV.

Can anyone comment on if the improvements a Lumagen offers for these types of sources matches the level of improvements in pq I have seen going from my previous player (Oppo 203) to a HTPC with madvr setup?

Does it really sharpen up 1080p HDTV content to the same degree, or is it much less of a degree due to the source content not being as good originally as mkv/bluray rips would be?
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post #5475 of 5516 Old 09-10-2019, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
I currently use Madvr so only my mkv rips (which is like 60% of what I watch) have the improvements it offers.

I was curious about what the same could do for my other sources, namely HDTV and AppleTV.

Can anyone comment on if the improvements a Lumagen offers for these types of sources matches the level of improvements in pq I have seen going from my previous player (Oppo 203) to a HTPC with madvr setup?

Does it really sharpen up 1080p HDTV content to the same degree, or is it much less of a degree due to the source content not being as good originally as mkv/bluray rips would be?
The Lumagen has "No ring scaling" which is an excellent scaler but devoid of sharpening / detail recovery features, and there aren't currently additional sharpening controls on the Pro units - the older units did have sharpening and some other bits of processing (I believe from the Gennum VXP processor). For 1080p content it does feature Darbee processing.

The main benefits I find with my AppleTV are the colour / gamma correction, HDR tone mapping, and aspect ratio processing.
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post #5476 of 5516 Old 09-10-2019, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjschaff View Post
This surprises me. Would have thought that Win10, assuming updated to latest level, would include the necessary serial to USB signal support for all current and legacy systems that can run Win10.
Guess I've been spending far too much time in the Apple world this past decade to recall the days of fixing your own automobile, that is Windows. I only use Windows for the "odd" unsupported app these days under Boot Camp.


Maybe some day Lumagen will have a Mac version...



I have tons of problems trying to get my USB-Serial driver to operate stably on my Windows 10 HTPC - Lumagen. I've been through periods where it takes umpteen goes to sort it out and get the update working despite the device manager telling me Com 3 is good to go. You can also rip out drivers re-install, pull down the FTDI driver, etc and still have issues. More recently, rather than take what can be hours to get an update to actually work, I'm grabbing an old Windows XP laptop that sits in my equipment closet and using that with no problems whatsoever. So yeah in the first time in a while I've actually stepped around Windows 10 to do something.
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post #5477 of 5516 Old 09-10-2019, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
I have tons of problems trying to get my USB-Serial driver to operate stably on my Windows 10 HTPC - Lumagen. I've been through periods where it takes umpteen goes to sort it out and get the update working despite the device manager telling me Com 3 is good to go. You can also rip out drivers re-install, pull down the FTDI driver, etc and still have issues. More recently, rather than take what can be hours to get an update to actually work, I'm grabbing an old Windows XP laptop that sits in my equipment closet and using that with no problems whatsoever. So yeah in the first time in a while I've actually stepped around Windows 10 to do something.


Try the 2nd fastest setting instead of the fastest setting. I never have a problem downloading firmware updates.


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post #5478 of 5516 Old 09-10-2019, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Try the 2nd fastest setting instead of the fastest setting. I never have a problem downloading firmware updates.


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Don't worry Craig, you know me, I'm a PC guy from way back . Been down every route, and even with the top spec of the MSI motherboard in my HTPC, it still is incredibly finicky with USB-Serial port drivers. The little old laptop handles it with no issues. I've literally spent a period over a month persisting with trying methods to get the HTPC to simply work to do update -which itself is extremely simple if it is given I can leave the USB connected in the rack between the two. I might come back to it again at some stage but when you're literally ripping all of the USB drivers out and starting fresh only to still see constant failed to connect errors off the bat in the updater, there isn't a whole lot more I can do. It's nothing I'm losing sleep over though since the old laptop takes all of 3 minutes more work to use instead.
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post #5479 of 5516 Old 09-11-2019, 05:38 AM
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Same for me, I have never managed to update via the USB port. I use an RS232 / USB adapter and it works very well.

I would still like to be able to update directly from the USB port. The best thing would have been to have an RJ45 plug and be able to update directly by the network.

I was surprised when the Lumagen Pro came out, it does not offer this feature, because it is true that a Lumagen update is not so simple when it has never been done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
The Lumagen has "No ring scaling" which is an excellent scaler but devoid of sharpening / detail recovery features, and there aren't currently additional sharpening controls on the Pro units - the older units did have sharpening and some other bits of processing (I believe from the Gennum VXP processor). For 1080p content it does feature Darbee processing.

The main benefits I find with my AppleTV are the colour / gamma correction, HDR tone mapping, and aspect ratio processing.
Now that the DTM is in focus, I hope Lumagen will finally look at the sharpness filters ... I know a lot of people are waiting for them, at least in Europe. In the USA it seems unfortunately that it is not the priority of the users to what I understood.

Some people have not bought the Lumagen Pro because of this point, it's a shame. Especially that there is the Envy that will come out, suddenly all these potential buyers will now wait to see what will propose this competitor Lumagen Pro.
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post #5480 of 5516 Old 09-11-2019, 03:13 PM
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giomania:

To answer you question:

Enable HDR Mapping as previously discussed, turn DTM on (the default), and set DLev = 8 (default is 5 going to change to 8 - might already be 8 the latest). Then set the Max Light (make sure "High-Set Ratio = 0) to about 5 to 6 times measured output in nits. Then set Low-set Ratio so that the Low-set effective-max-light is about 2X the measures light output in nits.

Then check dark and very bright content to confirm all look good.
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post #5481 of 5516 Old 09-11-2019, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jrp View Post
giomania:



To answer you question:



Enable HDR Mapping as previously discussed, turn DTM on (the default), and set DLev = 8 (default is 5 going to change to 8 - might already be 8 the latest). Then set the Max Light (make sure "High-Set Ratio = 0) to about 5 to 6 times measured output in nits. Then set Low-set Ratio so that the Low-set effective-max-light is about 2X the measures light output in nits.



Then check dark and very bright content to confirm all look good.
I'm wondering that why don't you change the UI so that users could only input their real peak nits to one place, and then all the calculations would be done in the background? Then maybe put a slider where users can adjust the average brightness to suit their preference.

Should be easy to do, and would be a lot straight forward for users to adjust.

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post #5482 of 5516 Old 09-12-2019, 02:04 AM
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I'm wondering that why don't you change the UI so that users could only input their real peak nits to one place, and then all the calculations would be done in the background? Then maybe put a slider where users can adjust the average brightness to suit their preference.

Should be easy to do, and would be a lot straight forward for users to adjust.

Lähetetty minun SM-G930F laitteesta Tapatalkilla
I have to agree: It would be nice if all of the HDR settings would be in one place without using Alt buttons and different sub-menus.
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post #5483 of 5516 Old 09-12-2019, 10:05 AM
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Today I learned that the new and upcoming competitor for the Lumagen, the MadVR's ENVY, will feature "geometry correction" which is supposed to make image "warping" possible which I'd need for my curved screen..
Is this something the Lumagen will feature as well in the foreseeable future?
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post #5484 of 5516 Old 09-12-2019, 10:27 AM
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I just saw the prices and features of both versions of the Envy and I think it's not really a Lumagen competitor eventually. In my opinion, it is aimed at another type of clientele.

I kept an eye on the Envy but I must say that now it does not really interest me anymore and my Lumagen Pro will stay for many years in my rack.
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post #5485 of 5516 Old 09-12-2019, 10:51 AM
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You could turn off the DTM in the Lumagen Pro and get its output to the Envy for Tone Mapping :-)
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post #5486 of 5516 Old 09-12-2019, 12:02 PM
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Given the Envy's price point, I think they really have their work cut out for them - to say the least!!
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post #5487 of 5516 Old 09-12-2019, 12:41 PM
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I just saw the prices and features of both versions of the Envy and I think it's not really a Lumagen competitor eventually. In my opinion, it is aimed at another type of clientele.



I kept an eye on the Envy but I must say that now it does not really interest me anymore and my Lumagen Pro will stay for many years in my rack.
I have to say they cannot compete with Lumagen at all, I was the demo CEDIA today in the morning, but it was impossible to say it did greater job on DTM than Lumagen, the same relates to upscaling. But this requires a separate demo in a proper installed room and have both Lumagen and Envy close to each other. But price wise, I personally believe it is overpriced. Flagship should retail around 5-6k and base model 2.5k. I just don't see the market where people would select Envy towards Lumagen Pro, which is cheaper.

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post #5488 of 5516 Old 09-12-2019, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Sandel View Post
Today I learned that the new and upcoming competitor for the Lumagen, the MadVR's ENVY, will feature "geometry correction" which is supposed to make image "warping" possible which I'd need for my curved screen..
Is this something the Lumagen will feature as well in the foreseeable future?
You are probably 0.01÷ of users with this request.

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Audio: DENON X3500H -> Dali Zensor 7.1 Dolby Atmos (7, 1, E12F, Vokal, Dolby Alteco C1)
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post #5489 of 5516 Old 09-12-2019, 12:55 PM
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You are probably 0.01÷ of users with this request.
Maybe. Or maybe not.
I don't think curved screens are such a rare species...
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post #5490 of 5516 Old 09-12-2019, 12:57 PM
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I have to say they cannot compete with Lumagen at all, I was the demo CEDIA today in the morning, but it was impossible to say it did greater job on DTM than Lumagen, the same relates to upscaling. But this requires a separate demo in a proper installed room and have both Lumagen and Envy close to each other. But price wise, I personally believe it is overpriced. Flagship should retail around 5-6k and base model 2.5k. I just don't see the market where people would select Envy towards Lumagen Pro, which is cheaper.
Totally agree. To grab market share they need to meet or exceed what the Lumagen can do for much less $$. I must confess I was surprised to hear about their pricing. On the other hand, this would not be the first time I was proved WRONG.
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