New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 187 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 4122Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #5581 of 5857 Old 09-18-2019, 04:29 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
audioguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Not far from Atlanta - but far enough!
Posts: 9,590
Mentioned: 96 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4998 Post(s)
Liked: 3835
I have owned a lot of high end audio and video products in the last (OVER) 40 years. None of those companies (with the possible exception of Trinnov) come close to providing the kind of responsiveness we get from Lumagen. Simply blown away! Incredible!!
audioguy is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #5582 of 5857 Old 09-18-2019, 09:40 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 16,357
Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6988 Post(s)
Liked: 8270
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I have owned a lot of high end audio and video products in the last (OVER) 40 years. None of those companies (with the possible exception of Trinnov) come close to providing the kind of responsiveness we get from Lumagen. Simply blown away! Incredible!!
Agreed. Thank you Jim and Pat. Great seeing you at Cedia Jim.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_4340.JPG
Views:	90
Size:	4.20 MB
ID:	2617414  

[email protected] JVC RS4500, Lumagen Radiance Pro, Panamorph Paladin DCR lens, Stewart Luxus Model A ElectriScreens - 128" diagonal 2.35:1 ST130 & 122" diagonal 16:9 Cima Neve, Denon X8500, Parasound A 52+ amp, Martin Logan Motion series 9.4 speakers, four SVS subs, Panasonic UB820, Oppo 203, PFP M1500 UPS
Craig Peer is offline  
post #5583 of 5857 Old 09-18-2019, 11:11 PM
aka jfinnie
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 3,278
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2646 Post(s)
Liked: 1744
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
We like the idea of having a way to ignore auto aspect and keep the current aspect.

Pat and I talked and we decided that we will put the following into the next release (after the 090919 that was just posted):

ALT CLR: Ignore Auto Aspect changes and keep current aspect

ALT NLS: Enable Auto Aspect changes (if auto aspect feature is on)

=====

NOTE: For the Oppo 203 at least you can turn off the OSD symbols that display when you pause/FF/Rew. I did this since having the "PAUSE" show up in the image would mess up DTM while I was trying to evaluate a paused image. However, this should also keep the OSD symbols from causing auto aspect to detect a different aspect ratio. This is in the Oppo's Setup menu under Playback setup. Select "OSD Mode" as "Off."
Awesome, look forward to trying it out

The Oppo is annoying a bit when doing network playback of MKV files as although they did put that nice option to remove the OSD symbols, the MKV player sticks up a bright yellow chapter change text on the bottom of the screen... argh! . This will be really useful to neuter that.

Sony UHD players also have such an option to disable OSD widgets in their menus I recall.
Kris Deering likes this.
bobof is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #5584 of 5857 Old 09-19-2019, 08:47 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26,513
Mentioned: 241 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12542 Post(s)
Liked: 10154
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinamigym View Post
I'm guessing he read it on the Envy thread... "One question regarding "the base is good for 24Hz material, the pro is good up to 60Hz".
What happens if 60hz material is fed to the base? Does it refuse to play (which would be bad) or is it just switching off some functionality (which would be fine for me)?"

No one disputed it. In fact someone basically confirmed it. Sounds like Joe's statement is true unless you buy the $10k version of the Envy.
The base does 4k 60hz. The pro can do it with using all the features and full computational power. In other words, in MadVR's opinion, no compromise. The base model will not be able to do it with full computational power, due to less computational power available, so when some features are used, it runs into its limit. I know this is the Lumagen thread, but just correcting some misinformation.
seanbryan and woofer like this.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #5585 of 5857 Old 09-19-2019, 09:38 AM
Rise & Grind
 
dinamigym's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: SW Burb of Chicago
Posts: 513
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 324 Post(s)
Liked: 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
The base does 4k 60hz. The pro can do it with using all the features and full computational power. In other words, in MadVR's opinion, no compromise. The base model will not be able to do it with full computational power, due to less computational power available, so when some features are used, it runs into its limit. I know this is the Lumagen thread, but just correcting some misinformation.
Thanks Mike. Yes, I did see that point was clarified. I Should have edited/noted that later in the post. - Paul

Trinnov Altitude 16, Magico A3, Magico ACC, Magico A1s, Dual Rythmik FV25HP
Amps- ATI AT523NC, AT524NC, AT528NC
Kaleidescape Terra Server/Strato, Oppo UDP-203, Apple TV4k, XFinity X1
Sony VPL-VW5000, 136" 2.35:1 Stewart Studiotek 100 screen, Lumagen Pro 4242
dinamigym is offline  
post #5586 of 5857 Old 09-19-2019, 10:22 AM
Newbie
 
bob u's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
I would like to compliment Jim from Lumagen also. He has always bent over backwards to help me with the setup of my system and sage advice on everything from what hdmi cables will work to calibration.
SoulOfUniverse and aeneas01 like this.
bob u is offline  
post #5587 of 5857 Old 09-20-2019, 04:58 PM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Mike_WI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 3,384
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 445 Post(s)
Liked: 329
Arrow FW Beta 091019

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...ncepro_updates

Beta 091019
- Posted 091919
Added commands to temporarily disable/re-enable auto aspect detection.
Use Alt-Clr on remote to temporarily disable auto-aspect and Alt-NLS to re-enable it.
These commands can be issued via rs232 using the ascii characters for these 2 remote buttons.
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware

HT: Oppo UDP-203 -> Lumagen RadiancePro 4446 {18 GHz input x2 & 18 GHz output x1 cards} - "new (112818 FW)" 18 GHz microcode - parallel outs to --> [Audio: Denon 5308CI] --> [Video: JVC RS520 FW v30.1]
HT Details: link
Mike_WI is offline  
post #5588 of 5857 Old 09-20-2019, 10:32 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 16,357
Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6988 Post(s)
Liked: 8270
Wow - that was fast ! Thanks !

[email protected] JVC RS4500, Lumagen Radiance Pro, Panamorph Paladin DCR lens, Stewart Luxus Model A ElectriScreens - 128" diagonal 2.35:1 ST130 & 122" diagonal 16:9 Cima Neve, Denon X8500, Parasound A 52+ amp, Martin Logan Motion series 9.4 speakers, four SVS subs, Panasonic UB820, Oppo 203, PFP M1500 UPS
Craig Peer is offline  
post #5589 of 5857 Old 09-21-2019, 03:33 PM
Advanced Member
 
gadgetfreaky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 926
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 181 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
I too, recommend the OP hire a calibrator, simply based upon the questions he asked.

Someone recently posted that the Lumagen was the Trinnov of video. And, as with the Trinnov, without a fairly deep understanding of the subject (Trinnov = audio; Lumagen = video), and the necessary tools and knowledge of how to use those tools associated with the product, the chances of getting even close to optimum results are pretty much, zero.

The guys that know how to help the end user get what they paid for out of the Lumagen, don't come cheap. But at the end of the day, the Lumagen isn't cheap either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post
If you set the Apple TV 4k to output 4k HDR then it will auto convert all SDR to HDR. This could be an issue with the settings you have in the Radiance Pro.

If you set the Apple TV 4k to output 4k SDR it will still for HDR programs output HDR for those programs only. This is what I do.

I also have Apple TV 4k and Roku Ultra 4k to output native refresh rate.
So is this the definitive solution? I have a benq LK990 projector. I have the appletv 4k video setting as
1. enable HDR
2. Format 4k SDR 60Hz
HDMI output YCbCR
Chroma 4:4:4
match dynamic range = on
match frame rate off (not sure if this is right thing to do)

What settings should I have on teh radiance pro? anything different? I actually prefer the roku but they aren't supporting atmos yet!

I'm thinking of giving up both and moving to Nvidia shield
gadgetfreaky is offline  
post #5590 of 5857 Old 09-21-2019, 05:52 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Kris Deering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Pacific Northwet
Posts: 10,830
Mentioned: 203 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4005 Post(s)
Liked: 6973
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
So is this the definitive solution? I have a benq LK990 projector. I have the appletv 4k video setting as
1. enable HDR
2. Format 4k SDR 60Hz
HDMI output YCbCR
Chroma 4:4:4
match dynamic range = on
match frame rate off (not sure if this is right thing to do)

What settings should I have on teh radiance pro? anything different? I actually prefer the roku but they aren't supporting atmos yet!

I'm thinking of giving up both and moving to Nvidia shield
Those settings should be fine, I would also turn Match Rate to ON. In the Radiance I would have the HDR CMS output colorspace set to SDR709 since your projector doesn't do anything over 709.

My Home Theater UPDATED DEC 2017
Technical Editor/Writer Sound and Vision Magazine
Deep Dive AV - Calibration, Consulting and Education
Kris Deering is offline  
post #5591 of 5857 Old 09-21-2019, 09:10 PM
Advanced Member
 
gadgetfreaky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 926
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 181 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Those settings should be fine, I would also turn Match Rate to ON. In the Radiance I would have the HDR CMS output colorspace set to SDR709 since your projector doesn't do anything over 709.
When I turn match rate on, and start an appletV hdr movie, I get no picture. turn it off, picture comes on. for HDR CMS1 I have set to SDR709 do I have HDR flag off? or On? and is the 2020-601/709 set to auto convert?

Is there another setting for the frame rate on the ravii.
gadgetfreaky is offline  
post #5592 of 5857 Old 09-22-2019, 08:39 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Kris Deering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Pacific Northwet
Posts: 10,830
Mentioned: 203 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4005 Post(s)
Liked: 6973
HDR flag should probably be off. Convert should be on for that CMS. Not sure why you would have issues getting a picture when you start a movie. The only change would be from 60p to 24p.

My Home Theater UPDATED DEC 2017
Technical Editor/Writer Sound and Vision Magazine
Deep Dive AV - Calibration, Consulting and Education
Kris Deering is offline  
post #5593 of 5857 Old 09-24-2019, 09:46 PM
Advanced Member
 
gadgetfreaky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 926
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 181 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Those settings should be fine, I would also turn Match Rate to ON. In the Radiance I would have the HDR CMS output colorspace set to SDR709 since your projector doesn't do anything over 709.
got everything working, not sure which setting did it LOL.. but on CMS1 (HDR), I left HDR flag on and tried colorspace at BT2020 and turned off 2020- 601/709, and it looks great. The manual says the projector does BT2020 and picture in the menu settings it'll show that it's seeing and displaying a BT2020 (on projector menu).

Reason why I should do output colorspace SDR709?
gadgetfreaky is offline  
post #5594 of 5857 Old 09-25-2019, 08:16 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Kris Deering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Pacific Northwet
Posts: 10,830
Mentioned: 203 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4005 Post(s)
Liked: 6973
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
got everything working, not sure which setting did it LOL.. but on CMS1 (HDR), I left HDR flag on and tried colorspace at BT2020 and turned off 2020- 601/709, and it looks great. The manual says the projector does BT2020 and picture in the menu settings it'll show that it's seeing and displaying a BT2020 (on projector menu).

Reason why I should do output colorspace SDR709?
Couple things here. You don't want the HDR flag on if you want the Radiance to do the tone mapping. I also recommended SDR709 for the output because that projector's colorspace is limited to 709 for gamut coverage. I know it will accept 2020, but there is no reason to feed it 2020. The Radiance does a great job with 2020->709 conversion.

My Home Theater UPDATED DEC 2017
Technical Editor/Writer Sound and Vision Magazine
Deep Dive AV - Calibration, Consulting and Education
Kris Deering is offline  
post #5595 of 5857 Old 09-25-2019, 09:53 AM
Advanced Member
 
gadgetfreaky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 926
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 181 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Couple things here. You don't want the HDR flag on if you want the Radiance to do the tone mapping. I also recommended SDR709 for the output because that projector's colorspace is limited to 709 for gamut coverage. I know it will accept 2020, but there is no reason to feed it 2020. The Radiance does a great job with 2020->709 conversion.
Really? Radiance Pro doesn't tone map before the video goes to the projector? Are you saying when HDR flag is off, radiance pro just passes the signal to the projector to tonemap? is there such a thing as leaving it on, and the radiance pro tone maps, then the projector takes that picture and does "another tone map" to it ? sorry still trying to figure things out.

I notice the nit settings makes a big difference. What should that be at? i'm seeing a good pic at 500-700. But sometimes, not all, whites are a bit too blown out (mostly on some netflix reality show, not on movies or edited shows on netflix)

As for "limited to 709 for gamut coverage" where do you see that? I couldn't find it in the specs or manual? Manual says "Color Gamut refers to the range of colors that can potentially be displayed by a device. There are some standards to define difference levels of color gamuts for
display devices, such as CIE 1976, sRGB, Adobe RGB, NTSC, etc.
With this projector, selecting Auto will automatically apply the most suitable color
gamut to the image source. You can also select BT. 709, BT. 2020, or DCI-P3
according to your needs."

I take this as it displays BT.2020?
gadgetfreaky is offline  
post #5596 of 5857 Old 09-25-2019, 09:07 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Kris Deering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Pacific Northwet
Posts: 10,830
Mentioned: 203 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4005 Post(s)
Liked: 6973
Working on a new update with Jim and Pat based on an idea I had while investigating the last tone map update that Pat has taken to another level. Wow. Can’t wait for people to get hold of this.
LJG, Mark_H, giomania and 13 others like this.

My Home Theater UPDATED DEC 2017
Technical Editor/Writer Sound and Vision Magazine
Deep Dive AV - Calibration, Consulting and Education
Kris Deering is offline  
post #5597 of 5857 Old 09-25-2019, 11:12 PM
Member
 
MDesigns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Finland
Posts: 191
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 148 Post(s)
Liked: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
As for "limited to 709 for gamut coverage" where do you see that? I couldn't find it in the specs or manual? Manual says "Color Gamut refers to the range of colors that can potentially be displayed by a device. There are some standards to define difference levels of color gamuts for
display devices, such as CIE 1976, sRGB, Adobe RGB, NTSC, etc.
With this projector, selecting Auto will automatically apply the most suitable color
gamut to the image source. You can also select BT. 709, BT. 2020, or DCI-P3
according to your needs."

I take this as it displays BT.2020?
From the Benq website and it has been measured also. It doesn't even get to full Rec. 709: "LK990’s powerful BlueCore laser projection utilizes a dual color wheel system to produce unparalleled color performance by increasing color ratios and purity of RGBY color while achieving 92% of Rec.709 color coverage, dramatically enhancing color saturation to ensure superior viewing experiences."

https://business-display.benq.com/en...ors/lk990.html

JVC DLA-RS500
MDesigns is offline  
post #5598 of 5857 Old 09-25-2019, 11:40 PM
aka jfinnie
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 3,278
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2646 Post(s)
Liked: 1744
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Working on a new update with Jim and Pat based on an idea I had while investigating the last tone map update that Pat has taken to another level. Wow. Can’t wait for people to get hold of this.
Awesome. If you're going anywhere near the scene detection logic, there are a couple of scenes I'd noted so far with repeatable obvious slight curve jumps mid scene in recent versions (I may have seen one or two more but not wanted to stop and note them). I should note these kind of things are much, much reduced vs previous incarnations but it would be really nice to get the last few nailed. Would be worth adding them to your tests perhaps:
  • Narcos S1 E3 on Netflix played in HDR10 on Samsung UHD disc player, around 15:15 as the camera scans from the table to the narco "Poison" against the light coming through the window.
  • LaLaLand, 6:46. UHD disc MKV 1:1 rip playing via Infuse on ATV4K or Oppo player.
  • Both the above issues are actually baked into the Studio HDR transfers - thanks @Kris Deering for setting me straight. The Narcos one seems less obvious with DTM off, but is still observed, whereas the LaLaLand one is very obvious.

Last edited by bobof; 09-27-2019 at 09:39 AM.
bobof is online now  
post #5599 of 5857 Old 09-25-2019, 11:52 PM
aka jfinnie
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 3,278
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2646 Post(s)
Liked: 1744
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
Really? Radiance Pro doesn't tone map before the video goes to the projector? Are you saying when HDR flag is off, radiance pro just passes the signal to the projector to tonemap? is there such a thing as leaving it on, and the radiance pro tone maps, then the projector takes that picture and does "another tone map" to it ? sorry still trying to figure things out.

I notice the nit settings makes a big difference. What should that be at? i'm seeing a good pic at 500-700. But sometimes, not all, whites are a bit too blown out (mostly on some netflix reality show, not on movies or edited shows on netflix)
The HDR flag toggling was added really just for JVC projectors where you can use it to trigger a mode change in the projector - it is separate from whether the output is 2020 or 709 (hence why it is provided as an option)

I understand the Pro can do DTM for both 2.4 (SDR) and PQ (HDR) output gamma, but you wouldn't want to output PQ gamma unless you have a very specific use case. For instance, there are some displays that can't achieve either full brightness (LG OLED) or full gamut (BENQ LED projector) without being sent something tagged as PQ gamma. From what I understand your BENQ laser isn't in that category so you should send it 709 SDR for both CMS0 and CMS1 (assuming more or less default setup) and let the pro do everything else for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
As for "limited to 709 for gamut coverage" where do you see that? I couldn't find it in the specs or manual? Manual says "Color Gamut refers to the range of colors that can potentially be displayed by a device. There are some standards to define difference levels of color gamuts for
display devices, such as CIE 1976, sRGB, Adobe RGB, NTSC, etc.
With this projector, selecting Auto will automatically apply the most suitable color
gamut to the image source. You can also select BT. 709, BT. 2020, or DCI-P3
according to your needs."

I take this as it displays BT.2020?
"Displays" is relative. You get an image, and it adjusts the image to fit within the primaries that the display can actually achieve so it doesn't look terrible. But it can't even achieve full coverage of REC709, let alone the massive BT2020 space.

In sending both REC2020 and PQ HDR gamma to a display that doesn't achieve them you are wasting a lot of the HDMI bandwidth and adding a pair of layers of indirection in the projector. You really want to be working as close to the native response of the projector as possible unless there is some very good reason not to do so.
Gordon Fraser and loggeo like this.

Last edited by bobof; 09-25-2019 at 11:56 PM.
bobof is online now  
post #5600 of 5857 Old 09-26-2019, 04:58 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Wookii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,574
Mentioned: 60 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3024 Post(s)
Liked: 2229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Working on a new update with Jim and Pat based on an idea I had while investigating the last tone map update that Pat has taken to another level. Wow. Can’t wait for people to get hold of this.
Can you be more specific Kris?
Wookii is online now  
post #5601 of 5857 Old 09-26-2019, 05:46 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
thrang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 7,250
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2626 Post(s)
Liked: 2133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Working on a new update with Jim and Pat based on an idea I had while investigating the last tone map update that Pat has taken to another level. Wow. Can’️t wait for people to get hold of this.
Can you be more specific Kris?
He set all the knobs to 11....(say it with a British accent for full effect...)
Wookii and bobof like this.
thrang is offline  
post #5602 of 5857 Old 09-26-2019, 06:03 AM
aka jfinnie
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 3,278
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2646 Post(s)
Liked: 1744
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post
He set all the knobs to 11....(say it with a British accent for full effect...)
Is that before or after he was only supposed to blow the bloody doors off?!
Craig Peer, thrang and Wookii like this.
bobof is online now  
post #5603 of 5857 Old 09-26-2019, 07:27 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
thrang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 7,250
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2626 Post(s)
Liked: 2133
As much as I love DTM, the latter versions seems to be cautious - and by this I mean, focused too much on saving every tiny specula highlight at the sake of overall image punch. In speaking with Kris, he more or less knew and agreed with what I was seeing (and I’m assuming others have noted as well). Technically it’s referred to as padding, and the more conservative the padding, the less punch the overall image will have, as the system is reserving output for unknown brightness changes still to come during the stream of frames. (kris could clearly say this better than I am!)

So I’m guessing a lot of the work is to now find ways to reduce the conservatism - perhaps both foundationally but also optionally - and deliver more apparent contrast and punch to the image.
darksets and bobof like this.

Last edited by thrang; 09-26-2019 at 07:30 AM.
thrang is offline  
post #5604 of 5857 Old 09-26-2019, 08:09 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Kris Deering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Pacific Northwet
Posts: 10,830
Mentioned: 203 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4005 Post(s)
Liked: 6973
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Awesome. If you're going anywhere near the scene detection logic, there are a couple of scenes I'd noted so far with repeatable obvious slight curve jumps mid scene in recent versions (I may have seen one or two more but not wanted to stop and note them). I should note these kind of things are much, much reduced vs previous incarnations but it would be really nice to get the last few nailed. Would be worth adding them to your tests perhaps:
  • Narcos S1 E3 on Netflix played in HDR10 on Samsung UHD disc player, around 15:15 as the camera scans from the table to the narco "Poison" against the light coming through the window.
  • LaLaLand, 6:46. UHD disc MKV 1:1 rip playing via Infuse on ATV4K or Oppo player.
Always looking at this, so I will try and look at the scenes you mention here today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Can you be more specific Kris?
Turning the already great dynamic tone mapping to 11!

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post
As much as I love DTM, the latter versions seems to be cautious - and by this I mean, focused too much on saving every tiny specula highlight at the sake of overall image punch. In speaking with Kris, he more or less knew and agreed with what I was seeing (and I’m assuming others have noted as well). Technically it’s referred to as padding, and the more conservative the padding, the less punch the overall image will have, as the system is reserving output for unknown brightness changes still to come during the stream of frames. (kris could clearly say this better than I am!)

So I’m guessing a lot of the work is to now find ways to reduce the conservatism - perhaps both foundationally but also optionally - and deliver more apparent contrast and punch to the image.
Sounds like you've been chatting it up with someone in the know This is the crux of it, but it has morphed into more than I originally anticipated and Pat has come up with some great new code to approach it in a new way. More soon I'm sure!
LJG, dlinsley, thrang and 3 others like this.

My Home Theater UPDATED DEC 2017
Technical Editor/Writer Sound and Vision Magazine
Deep Dive AV - Calibration, Consulting and Education
Kris Deering is offline  
post #5605 of 5857 Old 09-26-2019, 08:34 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
Ash Sharma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: TX
Posts: 2,136
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1048 Post(s)
Liked: 719
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Working on a new update with Jim and Pat based on an idea I had while investigating the last tone map update that Pat has taken to another level. Wow. Can’t wait for people to get hold of this.
Are we there yet
When do we expect to get hold of this?
Ash Sharma is offline  
post #5606 of 5857 Old 09-26-2019, 08:44 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
thrang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 7,250
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2626 Post(s)
Liked: 2133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Are we there yet
When do we expect to get hold of this?
Wookii likes this.
thrang is offline  
post #5607 of 5857 Old 09-26-2019, 09:06 AM
aka jfinnie
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 3,278
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2646 Post(s)
Liked: 1744
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post
As much as I love DTM, the latter versions seems to be cautious - and by this I mean, focused too much on saving every tiny specula highlight at the sake of overall image punch. In speaking with Kris, he more or less knew and agreed with what I was seeing (and I’m assuming others have noted as well). Technically it’s referred to as padding, and the more conservative the padding, the less punch the overall image will have, as the system is reserving output for unknown brightness changes still to come during the stream of frames. (kris could clearly say this better than I am!)

So I’m guessing a lot of the work is to now find ways to reduce the conservatism - perhaps both foundationally but also optionally - and deliver more apparent contrast and punch to the image.
I think you can also flip this around. I provided two examples above where the current scene detection is arguably not cautious enough (or perhaps DTM is not smooth enough in transitioning between different parameters) as both those scenes give a hard-edges gamma curve / luma jump in the middle of the scene. Such things were happening much, much more often in the earlier releases of DTM (perhaps "less cautious") and for me personally I find all such occurrences very distracting in a movie.

I accept some folk may not find such things objectionable, but it would be nice if there really were no choice between impactful vs caution for that to be a tuneable option (much though I hate the proliferation of options!).

I know some other DTM implementations don't change curve with such a hard edge though, so perhaps there is opportunity to improve in both respects by softening such transitions.
bobof is online now  
post #5608 of 5857 Old 09-26-2019, 09:08 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 16,357
Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6988 Post(s)
Liked: 8270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Always looking at this, so I will try and look at the scenes you mention here today.



Turning the already great dynamic tone mapping to 11!



Sounds like you've been chatting it up with someone in the know This is the crux of it, but it has morphed into more than I originally anticipated and Pat has come up with some great new code to approach it in a new way. More soon I'm sure!
Wow - can wait to see this ! Thanks to you, Pat and Jim for all your work on this !

[email protected] JVC RS4500, Lumagen Radiance Pro, Panamorph Paladin DCR lens, Stewart Luxus Model A ElectriScreens - 128" diagonal 2.35:1 ST130 & 122" diagonal 16:9 Cima Neve, Denon X8500, Parasound A 52+ amp, Martin Logan Motion series 9.4 speakers, four SVS subs, Panasonic UB820, Oppo 203, PFP M1500 UPS
Craig Peer is offline  
post #5609 of 5857 Old 09-26-2019, 09:14 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 16,357
Mentioned: 116 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6988 Post(s)
Liked: 8270
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post
As much as I love DTM, the latter versions seems to be cautious - and by this I mean, focused too much on saving every tiny specula highlight at the sake of overall image punch. In speaking with Kris, he more or less knew and agreed with what I was seeing (and I’m assuming others have noted as well). Technically it’s referred to as padding, and the more conservative the padding, the less punch the overall image will have, as the system is reserving output for unknown brightness changes still to come during the stream of frames. (kris could clearly say this better than I am!)

So I’m guessing a lot of the work is to now find ways to reduce the conservatism - perhaps both foundationally but also optionally - and deliver more apparent contrast and punch to the image.
I agree with your observations. I imagine it's a fine line, but a little more " punch " to the picture would be great, if it doesn't bring any objectionable artifacts. I watched John Wick 2 & 3 as a double feature ( 4K Blu-ray ) last weekend with friends, and the picture looked excellent overall - especially dark scenes.

[email protected] JVC RS4500, Lumagen Radiance Pro, Panamorph Paladin DCR lens, Stewart Luxus Model A ElectriScreens - 128" diagonal 2.35:1 ST130 & 122" diagonal 16:9 Cima Neve, Denon X8500, Parasound A 52+ amp, Martin Logan Motion series 9.4 speakers, four SVS subs, Panasonic UB820, Oppo 203, PFP M1500 UPS
Craig Peer is offline  
post #5610 of 5857 Old 09-26-2019, 12:04 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
thrang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 7,250
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2626 Post(s)
Liked: 2133
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post

I accept some folk may not find such things objectionable, but it would be nice if there really were no choice between impactful vs caution for that to be a tuneable option (much though I hate the proliferation of options!).
Not with the relative limited light output of projectors, for the foreseeable future.
Craig Peer likes this.
thrang is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Video Processors

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off