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post #5641 of 8025 Old 10-01-2019, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Ian_Currie View Post
I didn't think there was any way to come with an approximate nits value using a light meter (e.g. a lux value).
@thrang post looks right. Here's my cheat sheet:

10.76 lux = 1fc = 1 lumens/sqft = fL
1fL = 3.43 nits
lumens * 10.76 / area = lux
fL = lux * gain / 10.76
fL * area / gain = lumens
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post #5642 of 8025 Old 10-01-2019, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by dlinsley View Post
@thrang post looks right. Here's my cheat sheet:

10.76 lux = 1fc = 1 lumens/sqft = fL
1fL = 3.43 nits
lumens * 10.76 / area = lux
fL = lux * gain / 10.76
fL * area / gain = lumens
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post #5643 of 8025 Old 10-01-2019, 10:03 AM
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post #5644 of 8025 Old 10-01-2019, 02:45 PM
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I compiled all that when considering moving from my RS600 to a slightly bigger, but less gain, screen and the RS3000 + DCR lens (which I did). However, like Robbie Hart's song about Linda's love for him, it was all (somewhat) bs due to bulb variance. DTM (and the DCR as I just wouldn't have the brightness) FTW though
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post #5645 of 8025 Old 10-01-2019, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
The red neon "Hospital" sign as she is leaving the hospital is a good torture test for DTM. I have yet to see a single player get that one right.
Not sure where you're getting the info on "right" vs "wrong". I looked at that scene with zero tone mapping, and DTM and they look identical in terms of how distinguishable the words are. Then I looked at the SDR grade and it looked the same (letters only have a second or so where they have any gaps between them). I also looked at the Dolby Vision grade and it looked the same way. So at least in my setup, it looks the same in every single usage case (aside from the increase in color saturation between the HDR and SDR grades).
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post #5646 of 8025 Old 10-01-2019, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Not sure where you're getting the info on "right" vs "wrong". I looked at that scene with zero tone mapping, and DTM and they look identical in terms of how distinguishable the words are. Then I looked at the SDR grade and it looked the same (letters only have a second or so where they have any gaps between them). I also looked at the Dolby Vision grade and it looked the same way. So at least in my setup, it looks the same in every single usage case (aside from the increase in color saturation between the HDR and SDR grades).
If you're telling me that your set up with the Lumagen can get that sign to show up properly then I can amend my statement that the Lumagen is a player that can do it. My calibrated RS3000 with MadVR has a hard time with that one and the other screen shots I have seen from others show the same highlight crush and/or blooming.

Can you post a screen shot of the frame cause that would be awesome to get me over the edge in my decision to buy a Lumagen.
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post #5647 of 8025 Old 10-01-2019, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
If you're telling me that your set up with the Lumagen can get that sign to show up properly then I can amend my statement that the Lumagen is a player that can do it. My calibrated RS3000 with MadVR has a hard time with that one and the other screen shots I have seen from others show the same highlight crush and/or blooming.

Can you post a screen shot of the frame cause that would be awesome to get me over the edge in my decision to buy a Lumagen.
You’re looking for something that doesn’t really exist - the shot starts with the background already in soft focus and racks quickly to a more shallow depth of field as Lucy approaches the camera - it should not be expected to be distinct.

Even the white lettering on the blue sign which was soft but legible at the start is completely blurred as the focus racks
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post #5648 of 8025 Old 10-01-2019, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
You’re looking for something that doesn’t really exist - the shot starts with the background already in soft focus and racks quickly to a more shallow depth of field as Lucy approaches the camera - it should not be expected to be distinct.

Even the white lettering on the blue sign which was soft but legible at the start is completely blurred as the focus racks
But that's the issue, on the SDR Blu-ray the letters can be distinguished, I did not say readable. There is a slight separation in the gradients so you can actually see the outline of the letters. And there was a shot on the MadVR thread that someone posted with a raw image from the UHD that showed that the detail visible on the SDR Blu-ray is actually there on the UHD. But there was hard time duplicating it on screen due to the HDR. MadVr comes pretty darn close but there is some highlight blooming that makes it look, shall we say ugly. It's kinda like the spear on BvS. That one is another torture test that everyone uses as a benchmark. I personally don't like that one. I prefer neon signs, or scenes lit by neon (looking at you Atomic Blonde club scene), on several movies to test HDR since it is a very hard color to replicate. Even film (still, not motion) has a hard time doing it. I also have not found settings that I like for Atomic Blonde that doesn't make it (that club scene) look over-saturated. Yes, there are some that come close...but not quite there yet.
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post #5649 of 8025 Old 10-01-2019, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jrp View Post
First: The next release is likely going to be posted by Monday. We have a candidate release out to a few people. This may be the public release, or if we get an even better FPGA synthesis we might swap in the better FPGA.

Now on to the fun stuff:

We believe this release significantly raises the bar on Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM). We hope you agree. I saw a post from Kris Deering where he had kind words to say about the improvements. That post was actually based on a few internal releases ago. That release had most of the improvements, but we have made further improvements since then. Many thanks to Jon Thompson, Kris Deering, and Craig Rounds who have been instrumental in helping us find and evaluate critical scenes.

We definitely stepped on a "slippery slope" on this release. Every step of the way it was "we should do this improvement" but that then lead to "if we do that improvement, we should do this other improvement" and so on. We plan on increasing precision throughout the pipeline soon, but while we were working on the DTM we decided to do the pipeline precision enhancement work for the linear Gamma portion, where DTM is done. This turned into a major FPGA code rewrite. However this has given us a huge boost in precision near black, and this shows as a improved image detail near black.

This release has the new and improved blend algorithm between the low and high control curves. This alone significantly improved the DTM image.

We also significantly improved the precision of the tone mapping table generation code. So not only is the quality and precision of the blend between the control curves better, but the control curves themselves are improved.

We have also addressed all the scenes people sent us to review. On the couple that were a bit over-saturated Patrick worked his usual magic and was able to improve the over-saturated pixels without having to reduce the average light output for other portions of the scenes.

The detail near black is pretty awesome – and it was already excellent before. And the highly saturated colors in some scenes now also look excellent. Of course, my comments on quality improvements are my opinion. Let us know what you think once you have had a chance to evaluate this new release.

======

People often ask me how to set up tone mapping and specifically DTM. To make sure this is as simple as possible, all my evaluation and tuning for this DTM release was done with default HDR parameters. The only adjustment I made was to set the CMS1 Display Max Light to the appropriate value. So, while I know the tweaks out there will want to play with settings, you get great DTM performance with the factory settings.

Part of the tone mapping setup question is how to set CMS1->HDR Mapping->Display Max. This still varies based on personal preference, but for projectors, I have arrived at setting it at measured nits times 4-ish. For example with the Lumagen Demo Theater RS4500 at medium laser, on a 14 foot diagonal 2.40 aspect Stewart Studiotek 130, I get 85 nits and have the Display Max Light set to 350.

Note that measured nits should be measured as 1% of the screen area using a probe with 1 degree of arc. This is the professional way to measure. If you calculate 1% of your screen area, and even if your probe is not 1 degree, you should get a pretty good approximation. Unfortunately this does mean using a professional quality probe such as the Colorimetry Research CR-100 (what I use) or the Kline K10A.

=====

I recently updated the Radiance Pro setup slide set, and I just completed a new revision of the Radiance Pro manual. I have attached copies of these to this post. We should have the new manual revision posted on the Lumagen website by early next week.
Hi, is there an update to the training doc? Some of the things have changed, and just want to make sure i'm doing everything right. Thanks!
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post #5650 of 8025 Old 10-01-2019, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
But that's the issue, on the SDR Blu-ray the letters can be distinguished, I did not say readable. There is a slight separation in the gradients so you can actually see the outline of the letters. And there was a shot on the MadVR thread that someone posted with a raw image from the UHD that showed that the detail visible on the SDR Blu-ray is actually there on the UHD. But there was hard time duplicating it on screen due to the HDR. MadVr comes pretty darn close but there is some highlight blooming that makes it look, shall we say ugly. It's kinda like the spear on BvS. That one is another torture test that everyone uses as a benchmark. I personally don't like that one. I prefer neon signs, or scenes lit by neon (looking at you Atomic Blonde club scene), on several movies to test HDR since it is a very hard color to replicate. Even film (still, not motion) has a hard time doing it. I also have not found settings that I like for Atomic Blonde that doesn't make it (that club scene) look over-saturated. Yes, there are some that come close...but not quite there yet.
The scenes starts with a few frames in soft focus with a few letters barely delineated - it then quickly racks out of focus. The focal plane is causing the blurring/blooming

Look at the Christmas tree not the dead pine needles in the carpet

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post #5651 of 8025 Old 10-01-2019, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
The scenes starts with a few frames in soft focus with a few letters barely delineated - it then quickly racks out of focus. The focal plane is causing the blurring/blooming

Look at the Christmas tree not the dead pine needles in the carpet
But if the player or projector can't properly show me the dead pine needles on the carpet how am I supposed to believe that the live Christmas tree is accurately displayed? The devil is in the details.
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post #5652 of 8025 Old 10-01-2019, 06:52 PM
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But if the player or projector can't properly show me the dead pine needles on the carpet how am I supposed to believe that the live Christmas tree is accurately displayed? The devil is in the details.
Keep looking and report back.

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post #5653 of 8025 Old 10-01-2019, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
But that's the issue, on the SDR Blu-ray the letters can be distinguished, I did not say readable. There is a slight separation in the gradients so you can actually see the outline of the letters. And there was a shot on the MadVR thread that someone posted with a raw image from the UHD that showed that the detail visible on the SDR Blu-ray is actually there on the UHD. But there was hard time duplicating it on screen due to the HDR. MadVr comes pretty darn close but there is some highlight blooming that makes it look, shall we say ugly. It's kinda like the spear on BvS. That one is another torture test that everyone uses as a benchmark. I personally don't like that one. I prefer neon signs, or scenes lit by neon (looking at you Atomic Blonde club scene), on several movies to test HDR since it is a very hard color to replicate. Even film (still, not motion) has a hard time doing it. I also have not found settings that I like for Atomic Blonde that doesn't make it (that club scene) look over-saturated. Yes, there are some that come close...but not quite there yet.
Again, the letters look the same in my system regardless of the playback system. The letters are only deliniated for short second before the focus takes them out. This is in every version I have here and on two different displays (SDR, HDR10, DV). So not sure what shots you're seeing that you're trying to compare to.

The scene in BvS is an authoring issue, not a player issue. But some tone mapping solutions came up with a way to fix the issue by desaturating when the encode should have to start with (Mad Max has similar issues).

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post #5654 of 8025 Old 10-01-2019, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I don't have it on hand but if you click my name and go to threads I started you will find heaps of colour gamut measurements incl 2020 for the lk990 in my 'jvc x9500 and Ben lk990 comparison's thread.

HCFR doesn't show a percentage but you will see where it falls short. Hint. It's a lot.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
Thanks! I'll dig thru. I spent 3hrs last night toggling a bunch of settings. I'm using AppleTV and was using Netflix Dolby Vision Politician show, and Alita 4k via itunes . When I set Colorspace SR709, HDR flag off, 2020-601/709 Auto - everything is a little lighter, colors lose the punch, but when scenes have things like a flashlight there's an unnatural glow around it. red brakelights, etc.


What do I do with Gamma2LUT? Should it be HDR or SDR?
If Gamma2LUT is HDR, I have to crankx Maxlight up to 2800 . If I put Gamma2LUT as SDR, it's down to 100 and pic feels a little dark.
Should I adjust ratio/shape/tran/hdsat?


The picture looks a LOT better if I set colorspace HDR2020, HDR flag on, and 2020- 601//709 OFF. The Gamma2LUT HDR and MaxLight 3000. The picture is sharp thoughout, picture has punch.

Can someone tell me Gamma2LUT and MaxLight settings should be?
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post #5655 of 8025 Old 10-02-2019, 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
As for the "adaptive feature", I reported some artifacts I was seeing to Pat to look at and they came to the conclusion that there is no way to eliminate them unless the Lumagen moved to an adaptive PER FRAME adjustment. This is now on by default and the default level is limited to a single adjustment per frame so that artifacts should be few and far between, if at all. There is a menu code that allows for further tweaking of this setting to be more aggressive, but I will leave that to Jim to decide if he wants to share that at this time. I haven't seen any artifacts with the default setting and it does help with the new dynamic modes, but moving to the next setting up (two adjustments per frame) does cause some very minor flickering at times depending on the scene (very similar to a quick flicker from a gamma adjustment in a dynamic contrast system).
Can you give a bit more information about what a single adjustment and two adjustments per frame is? I guess this is related to some step size either in % or absolute number of nits which is the most it adjusts the parameters by per single frame?
I thought I saw some (very) slight flickering in a couple of scenes before you posted the above info. I didn't have much time though and fiddling with the adaptive option is a bit annoying to A-B as it is burried in the menu.

Overall very impressed though with the image from this latest release.
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post #5656 of 8025 Old 10-02-2019, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
If you're telling me that your set up with the Lumagen can get that sign to show up properly then I can amend my statement that the Lumagen is a player that can do it. My calibrated RS3000 with MadVR has a hard time with that one and the other screen shots I have seen from others show the same highlight crush and/or blooming.
You mean this neon sign?

Lucy Red Neon Sign

This is the first frame after the scene cut. Top image is SDR (upscaled), bottom image is HDR (tone mapped to BT.709). I don't see any highlight crush or blooming here? If you're sending BT.2020 to your RS3000, it might be the RS3000 doing the blooming/crushing, maybe? Try calibrating your RS3000 to DCI-P3 instead of BT.2020, that might improve the results.
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post #5657 of 8025 Old 10-02-2019, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
When I was helping Jim and Pat on the last big update to the tone mapping I was experimenting a lot with different things that showed there were limitations in highlights due to the "padding" used on the upper end to eliminate the chance for clipping/artifacts. I discussed with them the idea of doing a true "dynamic" tone map that enabled the user to adjust how aggressive to be when it came to the "pad" allowing the end user to vary a setting that would give more highlight pop at the expense of some possible artifacts (think of how a dynamic iris works and how more aggressive modes can sometimes show an artifact but give better results with blacks). DPad is exactly that. I've found that a level of 3 gives the best combination of highlight intensity with VERY little artifacts associated with it. 4 is also good and would give less artifacts at the expense of some highlight pop. 2 will likely show too many artifacts for most. 6 is about the same as what the DLev value of 8 was before, which is still quite good but I imagine once people have a taste of 3 or 4 they won't go back to 6.

As for the "adaptive feature", I reported some artifacts I was seeing to Pat to look at and they came to the conclusion that there is no way to eliminate them unless the Lumagen moved to an adaptive PER FRAME adjustment. This is now on by default and the default level is limited to a single adjustment per frame so that artifacts should be few and far between, if at all. There is a menu code that allows for further tweaking of this setting to be more aggressive, but I will leave that to Jim to decide if he wants to share that at this time. I haven't seen any artifacts with the default setting and it does help with the new dynamic modes, but moving to the next setting up (two adjustments per frame) does cause some very minor flickering at times depending on the scene (very similar to a quick flicker from a gamma adjustment in a dynamic contrast system).

So for this build end users shouldn't have to adjust any of their settings from before except that I would recommend they switch DPad to 3 or 4 to give better highlight results when watching content. Enjoy!
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
To determine the DTM values (and Kris correct me if I'm summarizing this wrong)

- Multiplied actual NIT value x6 for MAX NITS in the CMS HDR setting
- Multiplied actual NIT value x2 for low ratio/"effective NIT" setting in the DTM menu[/INDENT]
So I uploaded the new firmware last night, and changed my DML and low ratio setting in line with Greg's post above - which I assume is your recommendation Kris? Initial impressions are positive, there is more apparent pop to the image for sure. However it looks like average brightness in the nit for nit range is increasing also; skin tones increase in brightness also for example compared to the previous DTM iteration (and my previous DML settings) when DPad is on 3 or 4 (I've settled initially on setting this at 4, as 3 seems to brighten everything a touch too much).

Whilst that isn't a problem in itself, what has always bugged me with tone mapping is I have no way of telling if I have that average scene brightness (of that nit-for-nit range) set correctly. No one has yet offered up a test pattern (for example an 18% window of a certain ST2084 code value) and said "under correct settings, this pattern should measure X nits".

So without that ability, and whilst we wait on a formal response from Jim - is a fixed multiplier of 6 for the DML and a fixed multiplier of 2 to the low ratio/effective nits, now the definitive recommendation for all projector users? Which of course has changed from the recommendation of a multiplier of 4-5 for DML and a low ratio of around 19 for the previous iteration?
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post #5658 of 8025 Old 10-02-2019, 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
Thanks! I'll dig thru. I spent 3hrs last night toggling a bunch of settings. I'm using AppleTV and was using Netflix Dolby Vision Politician show, and Alita 4k via itunes . When I set Colorspace SR709, HDR flag off, 2020-601/709 Auto - everything is a little lighter, colors lose the punch, but when scenes have things like a flashlight there's an unnatural glow around it. red brakelights, etc.


What do I do with Gamma2LUT? Should it be HDR or SDR?
If Gamma2LUT is HDR, I have to crankx Maxlight up to 2800 . If I put Gamma2LUT as SDR, it's down to 100 and pic feels a little dark.
Should I adjust ratio/shape/tran/hdsat?


The picture looks a LOT better if I set colorspace HDR2020, HDR flag on, and 2020- 601//709 OFF. The Gamma2LUT HDR and MaxLight 3000. The picture is sharp thoughout, picture has punch.

Can someone tell me Gamma2LUT and MaxLight settings should be?
Current recommendation is maxlight is around 6x measured peak nits for SDR 2.4 gamma output.
Gamma2LUT depends on the LUT you have loaded - HDR means the LUT is describing a "perfect" PQ gamma display, SDR means it is describing a 2.4 power law gamma display.

It is hard to understand what is your process here, if you're just twiddling knobs and trying to get a pleasing visual result it's going to be very hard to get good advice. Kris has already given you details of what is likely to get the most accurate result from across the interwebs, but it sounds like your "calibrated eyeball 1.0" prefers other settings?

You might find more information about this particular projector in the owner's thread - the details of what output modes are best to use will be the same for Lumagen and for MadVR users. If you're not calibrating and you wanted a shot at accuracy you'd want to choose factory modes known to be closest to given standards, and then set the Lumagen to be outputting to those standards.

Personally the best result for you would seem to be either to invest in the equipment to measure and understand your display and modes better yourself if you're going for accuracy, or to hire a professional with experience of Lumagen units and 3DLUTS to do it for you.
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I don't understand your statement. With a ST2084 curve, a measured peak white below 10K nits and black it is a calculated value as to what the 18% window should be; values will change if you apply knees and roll-offs to the curve. What Lumagen does is a different matter since as far as I know there isn't an update to the spec for dynamic processing other than meta data based. I assume they are essentially generating their own values by scene and then doing some secret sauce thing as well.

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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post

Whilst that isn't a problem in itself, what has always bugged me with tone mapping is I have no way of telling if I have that average scene brightness (of that nit-for-nit range) set correctly. No one has yet offered up a test pattern (for example an 18% window of a certain ST2084 code value) and said "under correct settings, this pattern should measure X nits".

So without that ability, and whilst we wait on a formal response from Jim - is a fixed multiplier of 6 for the DML and a fixed multiplier of 2 to the low ratio/effective nits, now the definitive recommendation for all projector users? Which of course has changed from the recommendation of a multiplier of 4-5 for DML and a low ratio of around 19 for the previous iteration?
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post #5660 of 8025 Old 10-02-2019, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by jqmn View Post
I don't understand your statement. With a ST2084 curve, a measured peak white below 10K nits and black it is a calculated value as to what the 18% window should be; values will change if you apply knees and roll-offs to the curve. What Lumagen does is a different matter since as far as I know there isn't an update to the spec for dynamic processing other than meta data based. I assume they are essentially generating their own values by scene and then doing some secret sauce thing as well.
Yes, but the lowest part of the ST2084 curve is usually maintained nit-for-nit (or maybe for projectors 2 nits input to 1 nit output) - the tone mapping affects values above that range - by doing so, normal mid-tone areas of the image (i.e. those that do not contain specular highlights, such a normally illuminated faces etc) should look largely the same or similar irrespective of whether a user is running their set-up at a peak luminance of 80nits or 150nits. Common sense therefore dictates then that we should be able to determine a test pattern, whose luminance lies within that range, that can be measured to determine whether the brightness of those mid-tones is at the right level when using the tone mapping settings, rather than trying to set it by eye.

With SDR of course we use the 100% white pattern for this, and set peak luminance (to 50 nits for example), but we can't do this with tone mapped HDR as that peak luminance varies wildly as you point out - so I believe we need a reference point within the nit-for-nit range that we can use to set average image luminance when adjusting tone mapping settings (not just in the Radiance Pro, but for whatever tone mapping device is being used).
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post #5661 of 8025 Old 10-02-2019, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by madshi View Post
You mean this neon sign?

Lucy Red Neon Sign

This is the first frame after the scene cut. Top image is SDR (upscaled), bottom image is HDR (tone mapped to BT.709). I don't see any highlight crush or blooming here? If you're sending BT.2020 to your RS3000, it might be the RS3000 doing the blooming/crushing, maybe? Try calibrating your RS3000 to DCI-P3 instead of BT.2020, that might improve the results.
That would be the one! I guess I will try DCI-P3 and try again. Thanks for the verification @madshi .
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post #5662 of 8025 Old 10-02-2019, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Yes, but the lowest part of the ST2084 curve is usually maintained nit-for-nit (or maybe for projectors 2 nits input to 1 nit output) - the tone mapping affects values above that range - by doing so, normal mid-tone areas of the image (i.e. those that do not contain specular highlights, such a normally illuminated faces etc) should look largely the same or similar irrespective of whether a user is running their set-up at a peak luminance of 80nits or 150nits. Common sense therefore dictates then that we should be able to determine a test pattern, whose luminance lies within that range, that can be measured to determine whether the brightness of those mid-tones is at the right level when using the tone mapping settings, rather than trying to set it by eye.

With SDR of course we use the 100% white pattern for this, and set peak luminance (to 50 nits for example), but we can't do this with tone mapped HDR as that peak luminance varies wildly as you point out - so I believe we need a reference point within the nit-for-nit range that we can use to set average image luminance when adjusting tone mapping settings (not just in the Radiance Pro, but for whatever tone mapping device is being used).
I think with MadVR they have found an automatic way to do this, you just need to know the real nits of your display. You input the real nits, then MadVR never ever shows anything brighter than it is in the source.

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post #5663 of 8025 Old 10-02-2019, 08:10 AM
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Can you give a bit more information about what a single adjustment and two adjustments per frame is? I guess this is related to some step size either in % or absolute number of nits which is the most it adjusts the parameters by per single frame?
I thought I saw some (very) slight flickering in a couple of scenes before you posted the above info. I didn't have much time though and fiddling with the adaptive option is a bit annoying to A-B as it is burried in the menu.

Overall very impressed though with the image from this latest release.
Pat or Jim would have to give the specific details. Pat told me that with each step it would allow one bit of information to change. The default allows one. Also, if you go to the menu where you can turn it off and on, if you hit ALT it allows you to have that menu smaller on the display so you can A/B in real time!

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You mean this neon sign?

Lucy Red Neon Sign

This is the first frame after the scene cut. Top image is SDR (upscaled), bottom image is HDR (tone mapped to BT.709). I don't see any highlight crush or blooming here? If you're sending BT.2020 to your RS3000, it might be the RS3000 doing the blooming/crushing, maybe? Try calibrating your RS3000 to DCI-P3 instead of BT.2020, that might improve the results.
That is what I am seeing as well, but only for the first frame or two after the scene cut then the focal point of the lens changes and the letters bloom out.

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So I uploaded the new firmware last night, and changed my DML and low ratio setting in line with Greg's post above - which I assume is your recommendation Kris? Initial impressions are positive, there is more apparent pop to the image for sure. However it looks like average brightness in the nit for nit range is increasing also; skin tones increase in brightness also for example compared to the previous DTM iteration (and my previous DML settings) when DPad is on 3 or 4 (I've settled initially on setting this at 4, as 3 seems to brighten everything a touch too much).

Whilst that isn't a problem in itself, what has always bugged me with tone mapping is I have no way of telling if I have that average scene brightness (of that nit-for-nit range) set correctly. No one has yet offered up a test pattern (for example an 18% window of a certain ST2084 code value) and said "under correct settings, this pattern should measure X nits".

So without that ability, and whilst we wait on a formal response from Jim - is a fixed multiplier of 6 for the DML and a fixed multiplier of 2 to the low ratio/effective nits, now the definitive recommendation for all projector users? Which of course has changed from the recommendation of a multiplier of 4-5 for DML and a low ratio of around 19 for the previous iteration?
Jim will have to chime in on this. It is my understanding that the Lumagen is maintaining nearly complete nit for nit for the values UNDER your effective display max light on the low end with a a slight curve starting in near the upper part. But the Lumagen is also taking into account the actual APL of the scene, which may be higher than the SDR version. Maybe Jim can chime in with more info on this. When I look at values in real time for most content, it is actually pretty rare to find scenes that don't exceed the normal SDR range unless they are REALLY dark.

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Originally Posted by MDesigns View Post
I think with MadVR they have found an automatic way to do this, you just need to know the real nits of your display. You input the real nits, then MadVR never ever shows anything brighter than it is in the source.
That would only work properly if the scene had absolutely nothing that was above your actual peak value. It would also make the gamma change from scene to scene because the headroom required for the highlights would then push into the normal range. I could see them wanting to preserve the first 100 nits as close to nit for nit as possible (at a 2x) but if you are lower than that you'd start seeing issues if they stayed perfect nit for nit and then shifted. So I don't think it is as simple as you're stating.
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post #5664 of 8025 Old 10-02-2019, 08:12 AM
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I think with MadVR they have found an automatic way to do this, you just need to know the real nits of your display. You input the real nits, then MadVR never ever shows anything brighter than it is in the source.
Well Lumagen's DTM probably wouldn't normally go brighter than the source either, assuming a massive error hadn't been made with the DML setting, but for a projector you may not necessarily want it the same brightness as the source. You might want it closer to half the source nits for the nit-for-nit range. So you still need a way to tell the system that. Beyond that, I'm more of a numbers guy. I do favour a more automated system, but I like to be able to take a verification measurement and have a target number to hang my hat on. It is the basis of accurate calibration after all.
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Well Lumagen's DTM probably wouldn't normally go brighter than the source either, assuming a massive error hadn't been made with the DML setting, but for a projector you may not necessarily want it the same brightness as the source. You might want it closer to half the source nits for the nit-for-nit range. So you still need a way to tell the system that. Beyond that, I'm more of a numbers guy. I do favour a more automated system, but I like to be able to take a verification measurement and have a target number to hang my hat on. It is the basis of accurate calibration after all.
I agree for the most part, but with HDR there really isn't a way to have an "accurate" calibration as there is no standard. You can have an accurate P3/2020 calibration and an accurate grayscale/gamma calibration for the baseline, but once you get into the PQ aspect there is not "right" way to do it per se.

With the 2x multiplier on the bottom, you're essentially defining the "nit for nit" range of the image for the Radiance. It isn't a perfect nit for nit, because there always has to be so much assigned to start the roll off, but the majority of that range is still nit for nit. Again, Jim could probably shed more light on this as it is all based on his curves.

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post #5666 of 8025 Old 10-02-2019, 09:32 AM
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The new DTM firmware works really well. Watched some of GOTG2, Ready Player One and nearly all of 13 Hours last night. I'm using the DPad setting 3. I may try 4 and compare. But so far I like the picture a lot.
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post #5667 of 8025 Old 10-02-2019, 12:46 PM
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The new DTM firmware works really well. Watched some of GOTG2, Ready Player One and nearly all of 13 Hours last night. I'm using the DPad setting 3. I may try 4 and compare. But so far I like the picture a lot.

I loaded the new lumagan update last night and placed the dpad on 3, watched the new Spiderman Far from Home 4K Disc that released yesterday, the movie was ok not great, but Sony did a fantasic job with the picture quality on this disc, this by far has to be the sharpest 4K disc i have seen on my projection system, i picked up the Dr Strange 4K Disc as well, i will have to watch this one soon, really loved this movie, but now they have added the Atmos track as well can't wait to see and hear the improvements.
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post #5668 of 8025 Old 10-02-2019, 01:03 PM
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I agree for the most part, but with HDR there really isn't a way to have an "accurate" calibration as there is no standard. You can have an accurate P3/2020 calibration and an accurate grayscale/gamma calibration for the baseline, but once you get into the PQ aspect there is not "right" way to do it per se.

With the 2x multiplier on the bottom, you're essentially defining the "nit for nit" range of the image for the Radiance. It isn't a perfect nit for nit, because there always has to be so much assigned to start the roll off, but the majority of that range is still nit for nit. Again, Jim could probably shed more light on this as it is all based on his curves.
Thanks Kris - yes that’s what I’m getting at, it would be good to know whether of not, for example if your low ratio effective nits is 300 nits (given a x2 multiplier to your measured peakY of 150nits), the 100nit and below values are being sent to the display 2 nits input to one nit output. I could then put up a 100nit test pattern and presumably measure 50nits off screen?
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post #5669 of 8025 Old 10-02-2019, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Thanks Kris - yes that’s what I’m getting at, it would be good to know whether of not, for example if your low ratio effective nits is 300 nits (given a x2 multiplier to your measured peakY of 150nits), the 100nit and below values are being sent to the display 2 nits input to one nit output. I could then put up a 100nit test pattern and presumably measure 50nits off screen?
This sounds like there could be a case for some new test patterns for testing behaviour of dynamic tone mapping implementations. Perhaps something @sspears could think about for V2 of the UHD disc that is in the works.

I'm imagining several sequences of grey scale windowed patches where somewhere on the screen (I guess as far away from the centre as possible, maybe a border around the edge of the screen) you'd have a significantly sized amount of varying peak nit levels so that you could see what happens to the greyscale patches when the analysed maxCLL / maxFALL from a DTM engine is in operation.

So you could have a 100 nit border with patches from 0-100 nit, a 200 nit border with parches from 0-200 nit, etc. Maybe have peaks of 100, 150, 200, 300, 400, 500, 1000, 2000, 4000, 10000.
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post #5670 of 8025 Old 10-02-2019, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by SSnarski View Post
I loaded the new lumagan update last night and placed the dpad on 3, watched the new Spiderman Far from Home 4K Disc that released yesterday, the movie was ok not great, but Sony did a fantasic job with the picture quality on this disc, this by far has to be the sharpest 4K disc i have seen on my projection system, i picked up the Dr Strange 4K Disc as well, i will have to watch this one soon, really loved this movie, but now they have added the Atmos track as well can't wait to see and hear the improvements.
I picked this one up today but haven't had a chance to look at it yet. We watched the new Men In Black movie the other night and the picture quality was breathtaking for detail and the HDR really lent a lot to the image. So might be worth checking out!

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Thanks Kris - yes that’s what I’m getting at, it would be good to know whether of not, for example if your low ratio effective nits is 300 nits (given a x2 multiplier to your measured peakY of 150nits), the 100nit and below values are being sent to the display 2 nits input to one nit output. I could then put up a 100nit test pattern and presumably measure 50nits off screen?
I don't think that is how it works. He didn't build in a multiplier to everything. BUT, if you had put in that your max is 100 nits for low (which means your measured is about 50 nits) you are essentially building in a 2x multiplier already. Stacey built a 100 nit test pattern into the new 4K disc at my request. It is in the advanced video section. I believe it is one of the last patterns in the list. You could measure there and see.

The problem with setting a generic 2x for everything 100 nit and below is you are assuming that everyone did this with SDR, which isn't the case. Most of my clients want it brighter (most ask for around 20 fL, not 14-16). What Jim is doing is leaving as much range as he can nit for nit, but you have to build in for what will eventually be the curve. And that curve is going to be different depending on how high the content needs to stretch. So if you are putting in a higher display max light, you are getting more nit for nit range before the curve starts, but there isn't a hard fast rule that I'm aware of. I looked at the graphical representation of his curves when I was at his place a month or so ago and you could see the most of the curves were nit for nit for most of the same amount until you got to the really high nit values.

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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
This sounds like there could be a case for some new test patterns for testing behaviour of dynamic tone mapping implementations. Perhaps something @sspears could think about for V2 of the UHD disc that is in the works.

I'm imagining several sequences of grey scale windowed patches where somewhere on the screen (I guess as far away from the centre as possible, maybe a border around the edge of the screen) you'd have a significantly sized amount of varying peak nit levels so that you could see what happens to the greyscale patches when the analysed maxCLL / maxFALL from a DTM engine is in operation.

So you could have a 100 nit border with patches from 0-100 nit, a 200 nit border with parches from 0-200 nit, etc. Maybe have peaks of 100, 150, 200, 300, 400, 500, 1000, 2000, 4000, 10000.
That wouldn't work because the patches would all be in the same frame. The only way this would work is if the pattern wasn't fixed and was updating like live video. I gave Stacey the idea of using dynamic MaxCLL/DML values for the 4K disc based on what I saw Panasonic doing with their test disc. Stacey took it a step forward and made it so you could change the actual grade of the content on the fly rather than just the metadata. So you could bounce between different patterns he has using the up arrow to select a different grade, but I don't know how much that will tell you about how the DTM is going to act with real content playing. Since Stacey's montage is a regrade each time, it doesn't work quite the way you'd want for evaluation. It also gets significantly brighter overall with each grade up (APL on his grades are really high). But the Lumagen does a great job with all the graded montages on that disc when I've tested it.

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