New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 193 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5761 of 5857 Old 10-09-2019, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I'll have to check that out when my copy arrives. Another dark movie I've been meaning to re-watch ( and a great movie at that ) is Arrival. DTM should make for a better picture. Time to spin that disc again.
Eager to hear your comment on Arrival _ I tried it a bit and found the picture to be dark and dreary - the movie is authored that way I am told as the intent of the Director was to paint a dreary picture.
If you have the new Robin Hood - give it a spin - mediocre movie but awesome audio and video - shines on the DTM.
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post #5762 of 5857 Old 10-09-2019, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Eager to hear your comment on Arrival _ I tried it a bit and found the picture to be dark and dreary - the movie is authored that way I am told as the intent of the Director was to paint a dreary picture.
If you have the new Robin Hood - give it a spin - mediocre movie but awesome audio and video - shines on the DTM.
I didn't have a chance to watch Arrival last night, but it is supposed to be dark - to match the dread people feel wondering why aliens are here and what they want. I've always found it quite watchable on my RS4500, so I'm eager to see what it looks like with the latest firmware. I do not have Robin Hood, but I finally got around to watching the last film in the Maze Runner trilogy. I thought The Death Cure wasn't bad - and the picture and sound on 4K UHD were amazing at times.

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post #5763 of 5857 Old 10-09-2019, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
You could also set the Lumagen to 1080p24 and simply use the RC of the Sony.
... for 1080p sources I would recommend that too, as here you can use Lumagens Darbee implementation in addition, if wanted.

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post #5764 of 5857 Old 10-09-2019, 11:28 AM
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... for 1080p sources I would recommend that too, as here you can use Lumagens Darbee implementation in addition, if wanted.
You can use the Darbee also with 4k output formats like 3840*2160, all that matters for the Darbee algorithm is the source input format (up to Full HD) .

But using HD instead of UHD output by the Radiance has mostly different results in combination with the RC. You will need to check artifacts, sharpness (ringing) and noise etc.
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post #5765 of 5857 Old 10-09-2019, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SJHT View Post
Most movies look great with this update, but anyone try Solo (opening scenes)? It seems to look darker than before. I know the movie was likely mastered that way, but seems to be worse than previous firmwares. SJ
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Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Eager to hear your comment on Arrival _ I tried it a bit and found the picture to be dark and dreary - the movie is authored that way I am told as the intent of the Director was to paint a dreary picture.
If you have the new Robin Hood - give it a spin - mediocre movie but awesome audio and video - shines on the DTM.
Bradford Young is the DP for both of these movies and his signature style is dark (natural light only, very dark). The point of DTM isn't to make movies that are SUPPOSED to be dark brighter. If they authored the movie to look dark, or just scenes to look dark, than DTM making them look bright is actually the opposite of what we're trying to achieve (movies look the way they are intended). Jim isn't manipulating gamma to boost the low end, he is preserving your dynamic range so you don't make them look artificially dark due to the tone map. Arrival and Solo look the way they are supposed to look.
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post #5766 of 5857 Old 10-09-2019, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Bradford Young is the DP for both of these movies and his signature style is dark (natural light only, very dark). The point of DTM isn't to make movies that are SUPPOSED to be dark brighter. If they authored the movie to look dark, or just scenes to look dark, than DTM making them look bright is actually the opposite of what we're trying to achieve (movies look the way they are intended). Jim isn't manipulating gamma to boost the low end, he is preserving your dynamic range so you don't make them look artificially dark due to the tone map. Arrival and Solo look the way they are supposed to look.
I agree Kris - but one might argue that the approach is so exacting in its limited tonal range that it makes for difficult viewing at times, whether at home are in the theaters. I've seen more than a few titles at a local Dolby Cinema where dark scenes were not terribly discernible, or had a couple of bad bottoming out contours of "digital black holes". Was really quite bad.
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post #5767 of 5857 Old 10-09-2019, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
I agree Kris - but one might argue that the approach is so exacting in its limited tonal range that it makes for difficult viewing at times, whether at home are in the theaters. I've seen more than a few titles at a local Dolby Cinema where dark scenes were not terribly discernible, or had a couple of bad bottoming out contours of "digital black holes". Was really quite bad.
I'm not saying that they are not difficult to watch. I heard the same complaints during their theatrical run too. But it ins't a problem with DTM, it is the intention of the master. You can futz with settings and try and make it more watchable, I would just make sure you return the settings to normal afterwards. These are not movies that main settings should be built around.

On that note though, I don't have any difficulty with either of these two titles. Both are easy to watch in my setup (I watched Arrival not long ago and looked at Solo when I was testing the latest build). I do find it interesting that everyone that is complaining about them specifically has a Sony projector with much lower contrast than my JVC. Coincidence???

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post #5768 of 5857 Old 10-09-2019, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I'm not saying that they are not difficult to watch. I heard the same complaints during their theatrical run too. But it ins't a problem with DTM, it is the intention of the master. You can futz with settings and try and make it more watchable, I would just make sure you return the settings to normal afterwards. These are not movies that main settings should be built around.

On that note though, I don't have any difficulty with either of these two titles. Both are easy to watch in my setup (I watched Arrival not long ago and looked at Solo when I was testing the latest build). I do find it interesting that everyone that is complaining about them specifically has a Sony projector with much lower contrast than my JVC. Coincidence???
Correct, never was blaming "your" DTM

And I am personally ok with Arrival on my setup - the latest DTM and settings does help with detail in darker scenes. So I'm as happy as dark movie can leave me...
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post #5769 of 5857 Old 10-09-2019, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by aeneas01 View Post
hoping someone might be able to help me out with the best settings for this chain:

apple tv 4k (used to mostly stream my ripped library, which includes many 4k hdr titles) > radiance pro > 40' bjc 3 active hdmi cable > epson 6050ub.

currently my screen momentarily flashes bight green when i start and stop 4k hdr movie files using the atv4k (infuse), everything else seems to be fine.

currently:

apple tv 4k = hdr enabled, matched content both on, under format i've tried 4k sdr 60hz, 4k hdr 60hz and 4k hdr (which i stopped using because i believed it was causing handshake issues).

radiance pro (18ghz inputs, 9ghz outputs) = all default settings, hdr tone mapping off, have also tried cms1 colorspace = sdr709 with sdr709 and 709 <---> auto convert, hdr tone mapping on, max light 800, which i used with my previous benq lk953st 4k projector.

epson 6050ub = currently default settings.

thanks!

any help would be appreciated!

Last edited by aeneas01; 10-10-2019 at 03:47 AM.
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post #5770 of 5857 Old 10-09-2019, 03:16 PM
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Kris did mine aa well. Maybe a bad example but maybe Kris would explain what is happening, This is a movie that if you watch the normal non 4K Blu-ray it is better. Maybe I’m crazy. Lol


You are not crazy. Terminator 2 UHD reviews point out this fact.



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post #5771 of 5857 Old 10-10-2019, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by aeneas01 View Post
any help would be appreciated!
Does the ATV->Epson have the same behavior with the Radiance bypassed?

Do you get the correct image on screen and then it goes green before restoring the image? Or just green then image?
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post #5772 of 5857 Old 10-10-2019, 06:57 AM
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Does the ATV->Epson have the same behavior with the Radiance bypassed?

Do you get the correct image on screen and then it goes green before restoring the image? Or just green then image?
thanks very much for your response.

actually i haven't even tried bypassing the lumagen, probably because it needs to be in the chain, i suppose trying it would at least tell me something about the hdmit cable(s) - one thing i did learn since my post is that a green screen almost always points to handshake issues, which i didn't know.

all of that said, i''m confident that i will get it sorted out along with a few other nuisances, for example from the lumagen i have one hdmi out to the pj (video only) and another hdmi out to my avr (audio only), my avr is a yamaha cx-a5100 with 4k pass-through set, but whenever i do anything with my avr when a movie is playing, such as turn another zone, the movie and audio turn off and on as (i'm assuming) more handshakes within the avr are resolved.

anyway, what i'm most interested in at the moment is getting some advice on the best settings for video in my setup, i.e. the best settings for the atv4k, lumagen and pj to watch my ripped library which includes a lot of 4k hdr titles, fwiw i updated both the lumagen and atv4k to the latest firmware last night.

thanks again!
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post #5773 of 5857 Old 10-10-2019, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
My ATV4K seems to work generally fine via an 18G input on my Pro 4242. I usually have the UI running SDR4K50, but the other resolutions work fine, and it autoswitches resolution / dynamic range OK. By generally fine I mean so long as I stay away from Netflix HDR content with its wonky metadata! . The only thing I notice is I often see a very brief green flash in the bottom area of the screen a few seconds after starting using the ATV. After that it is rock solid. Via a BJC certified premium cable. I'm pretty sure this flash is at least somehow ATV related as I don't think I see it on other inputs.
did you ever resolve this? i'm having the issue excpet my entire screen flashes green... like you i own a 4242 with 18g inputs, apple tv 4k, bjc active cable....
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post #5774 of 5857 Old 10-11-2019, 01:21 AM
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did you ever resolve this? i'm having the issue excpet my entire screen flashes green... like you i own a 4242 with 18g inputs, apple tv 4k, bjc active cable....
I have since done three things which have improved my AppleTV experience no end:

1) replaced every cable with 2m or more Monoprice certified premium leads.
2) changed AppleTV UI to 4k24p SDR which means least possible number of refresh changes on starting content
3) programmed my Harmony startup sequence for the AppleTV to send the AppleTV a reset command on activity startup. This means it takes a few more seconds for the system to get into AppleTV mode, but I don't seem to have as many odd issues any more with the box complaining about HDCP issues and the like.

Even with the above mitigation the AppleTV4k experience still isn't brilliant though, which is still a source of disappointment for me. Watching some Dolby Vision content no longer causes big luma changes thanks to the dynamic tone mapping - meaning the bogus, changing "static" metadata can be ignored - but there is still at least one outstanding issue which is that you will get occasional audio dropped samples which are coincident with the Apple TV sending out bogus metadata changes. Tis can range from every 30s to every 5mins to never, it is content dependent. The samples are dropped with all audio formats but particularly noticeable with content with Dolby Atmos as the MAT output format if corrupted causes my AVR to click and pop.

This appears from discussion with Lumagen support to be an issue with the input chip microcode; the vendor did have an update which fixed it, but it was worse for other reasons of input reliability. Of course I'm sympathetic to that situation, and the issue does arise from Apple doing something a bit naughty in their output; but it does mean that for HDR content playback it is hard to recommend using the AppleTV via a Lumagen processor.
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post #5775 of 5857 Old 10-11-2019, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I have since done three things which have improved my AppleTV experience no end:

1) replaced every cable with 2m or more Monoprice certified premium leads.
2) changed AppleTV UI to 4k24p SDR which means least possible number of refresh changes on starting content
3) programmed my Harmony startup sequence for the AppleTV to send the AppleTV a reset command on activity startup. This means it takes a few more seconds for the system to get into AppleTV mode, but I don't seem to have as many odd issues any more with the box complaining about HDCP issues and the like.

Even with the above mitigation the AppleTV4k experience still isn't brilliant though, which is still a source of disappointment for me. Watching some Dolby Vision content no longer causes big luma changes thanks to the dynamic tone mapping - meaning the bogus, changing "static" metadata can be ignored - but there is still at least one outstanding issue which is that you will get occasional audio dropped samples which are coincident with the Apple TV sending out bogus metadata changes. Tis can range from every 30s to every 5mins to never, it is content dependent. The samples are dropped with all audio formats but particularly noticeable with content with Dolby Atmos as the MAT output format if corrupted causes my AVR to click and pop.

This appears from discussion with Lumagen support to be an issue with the input chip microcode; the vendor did have an update which fixed it, but it was worse for other reasons of input reliability. Of course I'm sympathetic to that situation, and the issue does arise from Apple doing something a bit naughty in their output; but it does mean that for HDR content playback it is hard to recommend using the AppleTV via a Lumagen processor.
This is the best change that I have made to my AP TV4K settings to date. It saves a lot of refresh time especially for me b/c I have the RS4500 and it's sync times are quite slow.
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post #5776 of 5857 Old 10-11-2019, 05:12 AM
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My only complaint with the DTM now is how it works with HLG, the picture is totally washed out. Now that we are getting Thursday night Fox games in HDR, and some Saturday football this is somewhat important to me. Hopefully Pat can take a look at this.
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post #5777 of 5857 Old 10-11-2019, 05:18 AM
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My only complaint with the DTM now is how it works with HLG, the picture is totally washed out. Now that we are getting Thursday night Fox games in HDR, and some Saturday football this is somewhat important to me. Hopefully Pat can take a look at this.

I give up. HLG = ?
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post #5778 of 5857 Old 10-11-2019, 05:28 AM
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I give up. HLG = ?
Hybrid Log Gamma, the broadcast version of HDR.
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post #5779 of 5857 Old 10-11-2019, 05:38 AM
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Hybrid Log Gamma, the broadcast version of HDR.

Thanks. It is amazing what one can learn by hanging out on AVS. After doing a quick bit of research, it appears that the college games are only available in HDR if you have DirecTV - which I don't (just switched to YouTube TV). Oh well.



Thanks again.
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post #5780 of 5857 Old 10-11-2019, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by LJG View Post
My only complaint with the DTM now is how it works with HLG, the picture is totally washed out. Now that we are getting Thursday night Fox games in HDR, and some Saturday football this is somewhat important to me. Hopefully Pat can take a look at this.


Yes, I thought so as well.


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post #5781 of 5857 Old 10-11-2019, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I have since done three things which have improved my AppleTV experience no end:

1) replaced every cable with 2m or more Monoprice certified premium leads.
2) changed AppleTV UI to 4k24p SDR which means least possible number of refresh changes on starting content
3) programmed my Harmony startup sequence for the AppleTV to send the AppleTV a reset command on activity startup. This means it takes a few more seconds for the system to get into AppleTV mode, but I don't seem to have as many odd issues any more with the box complaining about HDCP issues and the like.

Even with the above mitigation the AppleTV4k experience still isn't brilliant though, which is still a source of disappointment for me. Watching some Dolby Vision content no longer causes big luma changes thanks to the dynamic tone mapping - meaning the bogus, changing "static" metadata can be ignored - but there is still at least one outstanding issue which is that you will get occasional audio dropped samples which are coincident with the Apple TV sending out bogus metadata changes. Tis can range from every 30s to every 5mins to never, it is content dependent. The samples are dropped with all audio formats but particularly noticeable with content with Dolby Atmos as the MAT output format if corrupted causes my AVR to click and pop.

This appears from discussion with Lumagen support to be an issue with the input chip microcode; the vendor did have an update which fixed it, but it was worse for other reasons of input reliability. Of course I'm sympathetic to that situation, and the issue does arise from Apple doing something a bit naughty in their output; but it does mean that for HDR content playback it is hard to recommend using the AppleTV via a Lumagen processor.
I should have added, there are 3 ways to work around this with Apple TV currently (all a bit annoying):
* route HDMI via the AVR first and then through the Lumagen - gains OSD from AVR but also adds risk of AVR image manipulation
* use a splitter at HDMI output of Apple TV to route to both AVR and Lumagen separately
* Disable HDR in the Apple TV.
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post #5782 of 5857 Old 10-11-2019, 07:55 AM
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Watched " Blade Runner 2049 " last night with a friend that had never seen it. Hadn't watched it since Mr. Deering did his magic and the latest DTM firmware came out. All I can say is the picture was astounding!
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post #5783 of 5857 Old 10-11-2019, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post
The Lumagen automatically stores calibrations in CMS0 when it detects a SDR input and CMS01 when it detects a HDR input. If you only used SDR709 and HDR2020 calibrations, this would be all you would have to concern yourself with. SDR2020 calibrations introduce a complication. The Lumagen detects a HDR input and so will store the calibration in CMS01, which would overwrite any HDR2020 calibration you would have there. For this reason, we recommend that you copy any HDR2020 calibration to another CMS, so that it can be retrieved at any time. Also, you should copy the SDR2020 calibration to another CMS as well for the same reason.

For playback use CMS0 for SDR709 and CMS01 for both HDR2020 and SDR2020. Just copy the stored SDR2020 or HDR2020 to CMS01 prior to playback.

I hope that this clarifies the issue.

In the next release we will offer a wizard that automates much of the a Lumagen auto-cal process. We have had a lot of support issues with this. The problem appears to be either corrupted installations not related to auto-cal or user error in following the documented steps. I am sympathetic to this because there are a lot of steps required, so it is easy to miss one, which is why we are automating much of this to simplify the process.
Hi Tom, apologies for the n00b question - is there a timeline and description of this next release that you note above?

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post #5784 of 5857 Old 10-11-2019, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I have since done three things which have improved my AppleTV experience no end:

1) replaced every cable with 2m or more Monoprice certified premium leads.
2) changed AppleTV UI to 4k24p SDR which means least possible number of refresh changes on starting content
3) programmed my Harmony startup sequence for the AppleTV to send the AppleTV a reset command on activity startup. This means it takes a few more seconds for the system to get into AppleTV mode, but I don't seem to have as many odd issues any more with the box complaining about HDCP issues and the like.

Even with the above mitigation the AppleTV4k experience still isn't brilliant though, which is still a source of disappointment for me. Watching some Dolby Vision content no longer causes big luma changes thanks to the dynamic tone mapping - meaning the bogus, changing "static" metadata can be ignored - but there is still at least one outstanding issue which is that you will get occasional audio dropped samples which are coincident with the Apple TV sending out bogus metadata changes. Tis can range from every 30s to every 5mins to never, it is content dependent. The samples are dropped with all audio formats but particularly noticeable with content with Dolby Atmos as the MAT output format if corrupted causes my AVR to click and pop.

This appears from discussion with Lumagen support to be an issue with the input chip microcode; the vendor did have an update which fixed it, but it was worse for other reasons of input reliability. Of course I'm sympathetic to that situation, and the issue does arise from Apple doing something a bit naughty in their output; but it does mean that for HDR content playback it is hard to recommend using the AppleTV via a Lumagen processor.
Would an HDFury help with the blanking of the screen when I start and stop shows on Hulu, netflix? the 5-10 seconds everytime i stop a show and try to find something to watch is just so annoying
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post #5785 of 5857 Old 10-12-2019, 03:05 AM
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Another newbie question:

If I get 444-SDR709 input signal, why is the output signal 422-SDR709, and not 444-SDR709?
Am I not 'losing' something, if the content is already encoded as 444?

The source is a 4K Netflix @ Apple TV, and the output device is a Sony 4K 995 PJ.
Thanks!
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post #5786 of 5857 Old 10-12-2019, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post
Would an HDFury help with the blanking of the screen when I start and stop shows on Hulu, netflix? the 5-10 seconds everytime i stop a show and try to find something to watch is just so annoying
No, it would probably make them worse.

Investigate why you have the blanking; there are nearly always compromised you can put in place to the video playback that will reduce blanking times. If you press Enter on the Lumagen during the Hulu shows and then also during the AppleTV menus it will show what you have coming in and what you can going out.

For example, you could disable match rate and match dynamic range on the AppleTV, to make it always output as HDR. Or you can leave them enabled, but make the Lumagen output everything in a fixed format such as 4K60. Of course these tweaks usually compromise some other aspect of playback, so you either need to get to grips with the compromises and whether they are acceptable to you, or speak to a calibrator experienced in configuring Lumagen devices to best meet your needs.

If you share some more details of how you have everything setup and what the Lumagen says it is doing then I'm sure folk in here can help you with understanding what you have set up, why it behaves like it does, and what changes you could think about implementing.
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post #5787 of 5857 Old 10-12-2019, 03:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaharT View Post
Another newbie question:

If I get 444-SDR709 input signal, why is the output signal 422-SDR709, and not 444-SDR709?
Am I not 'losing' something, if the content is already encoded as 444?

The source is a 4K Netflix @ Apple TV, and the output device is a Sony 4K 995 PJ.
Thanks!
Bluntly, because that is how you have the Lumagen configured. You can choose most formats for output under Output -> Styles -> HDMI Output format
From the manual (http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance...ual_071819.pdf). 422 is the default output.

Quote:
HDMI Output Type
You can specify the digital output range as “RGB-PC level” (e.g. for 8-bit 0 to 255) or “RGB-Video level” (e.g. for 8-
bit 16 to 235). “YCbCr 422” is the recommended output format. For the HDMI RGB output, setting the level as
video allows blacker-than-black and whiter-than-white video levels to be output from the Radiance. The command
is:
MENU → Output → Styles → [Style] → HDMI Format → Type → (Auto, RGB/Level=Vid,
RGB/Level=PC, RGB/36bpp Dual Out/Level=Vid, YCbCr444, YCbCr422)
Note that for some output rates (e.g. 4k60 using 9 GHz output cards) the mode may not be programmable. For
reference the 4k60 output mode using 9 GHz I/O cards is always 4:2:0, 8-bit. Note that the RGB/36bpp is
supported only for 9 GHz output cards.
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post #5788 of 5857 Old 10-12-2019, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Bluntly, because that is how you have the Lumagen configured. You can choose most formats for output under Output -> Styles -> HDMI Output format
From the manual (http://www.lumagen.com/docs/Radiance...ual_071819.pdf). 422 is the default output.
Thanks much!
I had the Lumagen calibrated by a professional. Hence My question
Am I right in understanding that it makes sense to change the output to 444 when the input is 444?
Is it like resolution, that I can set it to 444 output based on an input of 444, and 422 output based on 422 input?
I much appreciate how helpful this forum is!
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post #5789 of 5857 Old 10-12-2019, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaharT View Post
Thanks much!
I had the Lumagen calibrated by a professional. Hence My question
Am I right in understanding that it makes sense to change the output to 444 when the input is 444?
Is it like resolution, that I can set it to 444 output based on an input of 444, and 422 output based on 422 input?
I much appreciate how helpful this forum is!
I don't think you can match input format to output format automagically (I've not seen option to). The closest thing you could do is set up different styles with the different output settings, and use some of the logic in the Output screen to choose different styles for different scenarios. So I believe you could use different styles based on:
Resolution
Selected input
Selected Memory
REC709 vs REC2020 vs 3D
And any combination of the above.
There is also an Auto option for output format, I think this tries to use the "best" format up to the available bandwidth for the given output resolution, but I'm not completely sure.

I guess if you have a player which is noted for having particularly good chroma upsampling (like a Panasonic UHD player) there might be some benefit to doing 444 in and 444 out. Note that the video doesn't stay 444 YCrCb all the way through the Lumagen - there are conversions along the way to / from RGB through to the output I recall.
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post #5790 of 5857 Old 10-12-2019, 12:00 PM
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Someone just snagged an almost new 4240 on eBay for about half the price of new. I’d buy one in a heartbeat at that price.

Lumagen should think about a Radiance Pro “Light” with just DTM features without the scaling or calibration capabilities and just one HDMI in and out.

Maybe someday?
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