New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 194 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5791 of 5981 Old 10-12-2019, 01:13 PM
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@bobof , found all of your responses extremely helpful and informative, thanks very much!

i'm also battling some handshake issues where the screen flashes green and then black, it happens when i try to play a 4k hdr movie file, and happens again when i stop play, doesn't matter what i set the apple tv 4k to (4k hdr 60, 4k sdr 60, or any other variation the atv4k offers), always happens... also, on top of this, when i play a 4k hdr movie file there's a delay in displaying the image, the image will finally display about 5 secs in so i won't see the full studio introduction.

looking at the link to the lumagen manual you posted, i didn't realize that my 9ghz output cards (18 input cards) were limited 4:2:0, 8-bit... consequently, is there any reason to set the atv4k output to anything higher than that, 4:4:4 for example? in fact by setting the 4tv4k to a different chroma subsampling than the lumagen can't output, would this contribute to handshake issues (green flash)?

and finally, what hdr tone mapping settings do you recommend for cms1? i have an espon 6050ub.
btw, i updated the lumagen's firmware a couple of nights ago, how do i access dtm setting using the remote? when i was paying around with the atv4k's hdr output settings, i noticed that it caused the dtm menu to pop up at one point, which i dismissed, haven't seen that menu again.

thanks!
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post #5792 of 5981 Old 10-12-2019, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMILANI View Post
Someone just snagged an almost new 4240 on eBay for about half the price of new. I’d buy one in a heartbeat at that price.

Lumagen should think about a Radiance Pro “Light” with just DTM features without the scaling or calibration capabilities and just one HDMI in and out.

Maybe someday?

What would a lumagen lite device not contain? The fpga or the hdmi boards?
Hardware wise there could not be any difference.
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post #5793 of 5981 Old 10-12-2019, 02:04 PM
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I would say FPGA with not as many resources (same family but not as much logic or memory resources) and not as many HDMI ports, possibly fixed at 18G and not hardware upgradeable. Hardware wise it should be cheaper to produce. Less power hungry FPGA could lower power supply and thermal requirements, further reducing complexity and cost.

Just wishful thinking, but maybe some day.

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post #5794 of 5981 Old 10-12-2019, 03:48 PM
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...there is still at least one outstanding issue which is that you will get occasional audio dropped samples which are coincident with the Apple TV sending out bogus metadata changes. Tis can range from every 30s to every 5mins to never, it is content dependent. The samples are dropped with all audio formats but particularly noticeable with content with Dolby Atmos as the MAT output format if corrupted causes my AVR to click and pop.

This appears from discussion with Lumagen support to be an issue with the input chip microcode; the vendor did have an update which fixed it, but it was worse for other reasons of input reliability. Of course I'm sympathetic to that situation, and the issue does arise from Apple doing something a bit naughty in their output; but it does mean that for HDR content playback it is hard to recommend using the AppleTV via a Lumagen processor.
Curious to know specific (non-Atmos) content for which you're getting these audio dropouts. FWIW—just to provide data, not discounting your experience—AppleTV 4K directly into 18G input on my Radiance Pro 4444, with 18G output to my JVC RS1000 and other output to my AVR, has been working well for me, never had audio dropouts or green flashes. Cables are all BJC passive, 2m or longer.

A while back I used to sometimes see totally wrong colors decoded from the ATV4K after a rate/range change (Radiance OSD still had correct colors, so problem was between ATV4k and it) and I'd have to switch around to correct it, but haven't had that problems for months, guessing either an Apple or Lumagen software update fixed it.

I do of course have several seconds of blank video during rate/range changes, and as mentioned a few pages back I'm currently using 4K HDR 24Hz for the ATV4K menus to minimize that effect for Netflix HDR material.
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post #5795 of 5981 Old 10-12-2019, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeneas01 View Post
btw, i updated the lumagen's firmware a couple of nights ago, how do i access dtm setting using the remote? when i was paying around with the atv4k's hdr output settings, i noticed that it caused the dtm menu to pop up at one point, which i dismissed, haven't seen that menu again.
There are DTM settings that you can access quickly by pressing the left arrow on the Lumagen remote (by default, though this can be customized). Can't adjust "Display Max Light" from there, though—don't know of a way to get to that setting quickly.
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post #5796 of 5981 Old 10-12-2019, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by pjones View Post
Curious to know specific (non-Atmos) content for which you're getting these audio dropouts. FWIW—just to provide data, not discounting your experience—AppleTV 4K directly into 18G input on my Radiance Pro 4444, with 18G output to my JVC RS1000 and other output to my AVR, has been working well for me, never had audio dropouts or green flashes. Cables are all BJC passive, 2m or longer.

A while back I used to sometimes see totally wrong colors decoded from the ATV4K after a rate/range change (Radiance OSD still had correct colors, so problem was between ATV4k and it) and I'd have to switch around to correct it, but haven't had that problems for months, guessing either an Apple or Lumagen software update fixed it.

I do of course have several seconds of blank video during rate/range changes, and as mentioned a few pages back I'm currently using 4K HDR 24Hz for the ATV4K menus to minimize that effect for Netflix HDR material.
As I said, without the Atmos MAT format it is very hard to spot on PCM content as it is super brief (it used to be worse, but Lumagen did manage to tweak it a bit) - but you'll still catch it occasionally. It is also audible if you have an Atmos title and disable Atmos, but again you need to listen really carefully when not Atmos. Many folk might not notice.

It is a known issue by Lumagen support. Release 042019 was an attempt to fix it with a new vendor firmware for the HDMI input boards - "New 18 Ghz input chip microcode from chip vendor which fixes an Apple TV audio dropout issue." but was backed out at the next release as it caused other connectivity issues. (http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...ncepro_updates)

I've just rewired my system so that the AppleTV is connected directly to the AVR, but all other devices are connected to the Lumagen inputs. I then route the video out of the AVR to one of the Lumagen inputs. This works well and results in the issue above not being a problem. As it doesn't seem like a fix is likely in the near term for this issue I'll either leave it like this or get a splitter so I can avoid having the AVR in circuit for the AppleTV video.

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post #5797 of 5981 Old 10-12-2019, 05:11 PM
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Has anyone watched "El camino" on AppleTV from Netflix via DTM? Noticed quite a few sections with overblown highlights - eg the diner scene Jesse's face around 1hr48. To recover them I have to dial up the display max light substantially - from 500 it needs to go up to around 8-900 for his cheeks to show some skin tones, or alternatively drop the ratio to 18-20. Be interested to see what others are seeing there with their settings.
I have approx 75 real nits. Usually DML usually 500, dPad set to 4, Low ratio to 27.
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post #5798 of 5981 Old 10-12-2019, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMILANI View Post
Someone just snagged an almost new 4240 on eBay for about half the price of new. I’d buy one in a heartbeat at that price.

Lumagen should think about a Radiance Pro “Light” with just DTM features without the scaling or calibration capabilities and just one HDMI in and out.

Maybe someday?
I was watching that one too. Almooooooost bid, but I need more inputs and feared adding a switch in ahead of the Lumagen.

I'll be watching for more listings however as used is the only way I'll ever afford one of these. Had one with my old RS1 projector and loved it. Special thanks to JVC and their "HDR handling" on my RS500 for putting me in the market for another Lumagen


I don't know enough about the hardware/software to say much about a lite version but it would probably bug me knowing I was missing out on a feature with which a calibrator could have improved my image.
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post #5799 of 5981 Old 10-12-2019, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by pjones View Post
Curious to know specific (non-Atmos) content for which you're getting these audio dropouts. FWIW—just to provide data, not discounting your experience—AppleTV 4K directly into 18G input on my Radiance Pro 4444, with 18G output to my JVC RS1000 and other output to my AVR, has been working well for me, never had audio dropouts or green flashes. Cables are all BJC passive, 2m or longer.

A while back I used to sometimes see totally wrong colors decoded from the ATV4K after a rate/range change (Radiance OSD still had correct colors, so problem was between ATV4k and it) and I'd have to switch around to correct it, but haven't had that problems for months, guessing either an Apple or Lumagen software update fixed it.

I do of course have several seconds of blank video during rate/range changes, and as mentioned a few pages back I'm currently using 4K HDR 24Hz for the ATV4K menus to minimize that effect for Netflix HDR material.
i wonder if my handshake / green flash issues could have something to do with my 9ghz output cards? my setup seems very similar to yours: atv4k directly into 18g input on my radiance pro 4242, with 9g output to my epson 6050bu and the other output to my avr.

i noticed that you've set up your atv4k to output 4k hdr 24hz, i've tried this setting and pretty much all others, both hdr and sfr, i've also tried with matching on and off, including combos of on and off, still get the green flashes... i'm using a 40' bjc active cable from the lumagen to my pj, what are you using?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjones
There are DTM settings that you can access quickly by pressing the left arrow on the Lumagen remote (by default, though this can be customized). Can't adjust "Display Max Light" from there, though—don't know of a way to get to that setting quickly.
ahh, i must have inadvertently hit the left arrow when the dtm screen popped up, i was juggling 3 remotes at the time, thanks!
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post #5800 of 5981 Old 10-12-2019, 08:47 PM
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As I said, without the Atmos MAT format it is very hard to spot on PCM content as it is super brief (it used to be worse, but Lumagen did manage to tweak it a bit) - but you'll still catch it occasionally. It is also audible if you have an Atmos title and disable Atmos, but again you need to listen really carefully when not Atmos. Many folk might not notice.

It is a known issue by Lumagen support. Release 042019 was an attempt to fix it with a new vendor firmware for the HDMI input boards - "New 18 Ghz input chip microcode from chip vendor which fixes an Apple TV audio dropout issue." but was backed out at the next release as it caused other connectivity issues. (http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...ncepro_updates)
I do remember that firmware back-and-forth and had asked Lumagen about it at the time—they explained to me that the audio dropouts which they were trying to fix would happen every 30 seconds on DV+Atmos content from ATV4K. Maybe I'm just not noticing it with LPCM audio, though I'd think that I (or someone at my house) would have by now.
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post #5801 of 5981 Old 10-12-2019, 08:48 PM
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i wonder if my handshake / green flash issues could have something to do with my 9ghz output cards? my setup seems very similar to yours: atv4k directly into 18g input on my radiance pro 4242, with 9g output to my epson 6050bu and the other output to my avr.

i noticed that you've set up your atv4k to output 4k hdr 24hz, i've tried this setting and pretty much all others, both hdr and sfr, i've also tried with matching on and off, including combos of on and off, still get the green flashes... i'm using a 40' bjc active cable from the lumagen to my pj, what are you using?
I'm using an old 30' BJC Series-1, which is passive—which is not typically recommended for 4K at that length, but thankfully (because it would have been a big pain to replace) it has been working fine at 4K24/50/60 from my Radiance to my JVC.

So do you see the green flashes at arbitrary times, or just while it's settling after changing input / frame rate / dynamic range?
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post #5802 of 5981 Old 10-12-2019, 10:23 PM
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I'm using an old 30' BJC Series-1, which is passive—which is not typically recommended for 4K at that length, but thankfully (because it would have been a big pain to replace) it has been working fine at 4K24/50/60 from my Radiance to my JVC.

So do you see the green flashes at arbitrary times, or just while it's settling after changing input / frame rate / dynamic range?
don't see the green flash at arbitrary times, i see it at very specific times, for example when i start and stop an hdr movie file, or when i do anything with my avr given i've connected one of the lumagen's hdmi outs (audio only in the lumagen's setup) to my avr for audio, which is a real pain in the neck.... if the pj, lumagen and avr are on and i turn off the avr (resulting in no audio) i get a green flash and handshake delay, when i turn the avr on again same thing...

glad you have the long passive working, i've had luck with long passives in the past but thought i'd go ahead and get an active given lumagen's recommendation, might try my passive again... btw i've tried 3 active cables including a ruipro and currently a bjc3 and have gotten the same green flash with all of them, really don't want to spend $500 for tributaries or the like if i don't have to, mat dust off one of many passives and give that a try.
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post #5803 of 5981 Old 10-13-2019, 02:44 AM
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don't see the green flash at arbitrary times, i see it at very specific times, for example when i start and stop an hdr movie file, or when i do anything with my avr given i've connected one of the lumagen's hdmi outs (audio only in the lumagen's setup) to my avr for audio, which is a real pain in the neck.... if the pj, lumagen and avr are on and i turn off the avr (resulting in no audio) i get a green flash and handshake delay, when i turn the avr on again same thing...

glad you have the long passive working, i've had luck with long passives in the past but thought i'd go ahead and get an active given lumagen's recommendation, might try my passive again... btw i've tried 3 active cables including a ruipro and currently a bjc3 and have gotten the same green flash with all of them, really don't want to spend $500 for tributaries or the like if i don't have to, mat dust off one of many passives and give that a try.
I think you need to treat it like a problem of onion layers and work backwards. You don't say if you get the flashes without the Lumagen in circuit? If you want suggestions on how to set it up that might avoid the flashes you'll need to provide some more information:

1) exactly how is everything wired up?
2) define "do anything with my AVR" - as you say that causes green flashes? It it showing an OSD somewhere?
3) does it go away without the Lumagen in circuit?
4) If you play the content, what does the Lumagen UI say for input / output formats?
5) If you look at the UI, what does the Lumagen UI say for input / output formats?
6) Do you have genlock enabled for the inputs?

The above info would start to allow you to formulate an idea of things you could change to see if they affect the problem. I don't have any flashes, but I also have a JVC projector which blacks the screen for 10-15s. One thing I did early on with my JVC was disable the blue input background and corner display of HDMI input info as it made the presentation much cleaner - but those were both projector settings.

Have you contacted Lumagen support? They're very helpful and will have seen most issues before.
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post #5804 of 5981 Old 10-13-2019, 02:59 AM
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I do remember that firmware back-and-forth and had asked Lumagen about it at the time—they explained to me that the audio dropouts which they were trying to fix would happen every 30 seconds on DV+Atmos content from ATV4K. Maybe I'm just not noticing it with LPCM audio, though I'd think that I (or someone at my house) would have by now.
It is just not very noticeable on ATV in PCM mode. If you want to try a title that I know you can spot it on, I recall "the Meg" from Itunes library at 5mins 5s or so as the helicopter comes in to land is very noticeable in Atmos mode, and just about audible in non-Atmos mode. That title has them every 5m 5s or so. Netflix Iron Fist Season 1 was also quite easy to hear it on - you just need to listen carefully. I don't have it hooked up in the way that makes it happen at the moment.

In Iron Fist they are there every 30s from the start but to be very noticeable in PCM mode the glitch has to coincide with the audio samples either side of the glitch having a highish level - otherwise you don't hear the glitch. But because of that they can often disappear into the background of the noise.

I'm glad it doesn't seem to bother you but I'd be very surprised if you don't have it in your system. You don't mention it explicitly I think, but I assume you have the 18G input cards and the ATV is input to the Lumagen, that you are watching the content from the Apple TV in HDR mode (you need that to get the glitch) with the audio coming out of the Lumagen and playing into the AVR via one of the HDMI outs of the Lumagen?
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post #5805 of 5981 Old 10-13-2019, 03:53 AM
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Has anyone compared the recently released DTM firmware for the JVC NX range vs the Lumagen DTM?

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post #5806 of 5981 Old 10-13-2019, 06:43 AM
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Question (1): I really like the newest Lumagen/DTM firmware update. The differences with it enabled and disabled are quite amazing. That said, when I adjust the DPad function, there is either zero or REALLY REALLY close to zero differences in the image even when comparing the lowest setting to the highest setting. Is there some scene that someone might recommend where adjusting this will show a clear difference?

Question (2): My equipment is in a room behind the screen. I installed THIS DEVICE (IR Extender) that would allow me to use the IR remote of the Lumagen from the theater. But it only works randomly (and very, very seldomly). It has something to do (I think) with the way the light hits the sensor. (I have tried multiple sensors and it happens with each of them.) So my question: I use Control4 and was wondering if anyone else who uses Control4 knows of any C4 software that will allow the Control4 remote to operate as the Lumagen remote? OR, if there is any other kind of non-IR remote that can be programmed to operate the Lumagen.

As of now, I have to take the IR sensor and attach it to the open door to the equipment room. Far less than ideal but it seems to work.

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Hopefully a simple question for this thread;


I use an HTPC (MPC-BE + MadVR) outputting 3840x2160 all the time for all content (720, 1080 and 4K). The HTPC is connected to a Sony VPL-VW760ES. If a Lumagen Radiance Pro sits in the video stream, will it still use its upscaling algo's and can Darbee be used when the HTPC is playing non 4K (so 720 or 1080) content or does the HTPC output and therefore the Lumagen input need a 1080p signal in this case?
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post #5808 of 5981 Old 10-13-2019, 08:23 AM
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Hopefully a simple question for this thread;


I use an HTPC (MPC-BE + MadVR) outputting 3840x2160 all the time for all content (720, 1080 and 4K). The HTPC is connected to a Sony VPL-VW760ES. If a Lumagen Radiance Pro sits in the video stream, will it still use its upscaling algo's and can Darbee be used when the HTPC is playing non 4K (so 720 or 1080) content or does the HTPC output and therefore the Lumagen input need a 1080p signal in this case?
Well, if you leave the PC configured to upscale then no, the Lumagen won't do any upscaling and no, you won't be able to use Darbee functionality - it has a hard max of 1080p.

You'd have to configure your PC to output 720p or 1080p if you want to use either the upscaling or Darbee capabilities. So to use Darbee on 1080p content you would have to also use the Lumagen's upscaling.
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post #5809 of 5981 Old 10-13-2019, 08:23 AM
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Question (1): I really like the newest Lumagen/DTM firmware update. The differences with it enabled and disabled are quite amazing. That said, when I adjust the DPad function, there is either zero or REALLY REALLY close to zero differences in the image even when comparing the lowest setting to the highest setting. Is there some scene that someone might recommend where adjusting this will show a clear difference?

.
I also can see hardly any difference. Must need to be an expert to spot.
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post #5810 of 5981 Old 10-13-2019, 08:25 AM
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I also can see hardly any difference. Must need to be an expert to spot.
When I first got the new release on the content I happened to be watching (can't remember what it was ) it made quite an obvious effect, though last night when I was messing around with the clipped scenes in El Camino it made seemingly quite little difference, so it seems quite scene dependent.
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post #5811 of 5981 Old 10-13-2019, 10:03 AM
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@bobof , found all of your responses extremely helpful and informative, thanks very much!

i'm also battling some handshake issues where the screen flashes green and then black, it happens when i try to play a 4k hdr movie file, and happens again when i stop play, doesn't matter what i set the apple tv 4k to (4k hdr 60, 4k sdr 60, or any other variation the atv4k offers), always happens... also, on top of this, when i play a 4k hdr movie file there's a delay in displaying the image, the image will finally display about 5 secs in so i won't see the full studio introduction.

looking at the link to the lumagen manual you posted, i didn't realize that my 9ghz output cards (18 input cards) were limited 4:2:0, 8-bit... consequently, is there any reason to set the atv4k output to anything higher than that, 4:4:4 for example? in fact by setting the 4tv4k to a different chroma subsampling than the lumagen can't output, would this contribute to handshake issues (green flash)?

and finally, what hdr tone mapping settings do you recommend for cms1? i have an espon 6050ub.
btw, i updated the lumagen's firmware a couple of nights ago, how do i access dtm setting using the remote? when i was paying around with the atv4k's hdr output settings, i noticed that it caused the dtm menu to pop up at one point, which i dismissed, haven't seen that menu again.

thanks!
For the ATV I typically set them up to be 4K60 SDR for the output with both range and rate match to ON. Chroma output is typically 444, but 420 works fine too. The Lumagen is designed to process and output in 422, so I would not recommend changing the output (neither would Lumagen) to 444. I've setup LOTS of ATVs this way in lots of different setups (including my own) with no issues other than the stupid audio drop outs when watching content that is specifically Dolby Vision with Dolby Atmos (I get no dropouts with Atmos tracks that are not tied to a DV title).

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Originally Posted by jabz View Post
Has anyone compared the recently released DTM firmware for the JVC NX range vs the Lumagen DTM?
I have. The Lumagen is still quite a step up, though the JVC did far better than I was expecting for their first time out. I find the Lumagen does a better job with both darker titles and high brightness titles. I see some occasional clipping with the JVCs that I don't see with the Lumagen, even with a Pad level of 3. I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that the Lumagen DTM is still based around your measured brightness levels whereas the JVC does not give you that option. I did a comparison for two friends recently with a mix of content and they both thought the JVC did a great job but saw clear improvements with the Lumagen. We used a mix of titles that included The Meg, the new Spears and Munsil 4K Benchmark demo montage, Lucy and Blade Runner 2049.

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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Question (1): I really like the newest Lumagen/DTM firmware update. The differences with it enabled and disabled are quite amazing. That said, when I adjust the DPad function, there is either zero or REALLY REALLY close to zero differences in the image even when comparing the lowest setting to the highest setting. Is there some scene that someone might recommend where adjusting this will show a clear difference?

Question (2): My equipment is in a room behind the screen. I installed THIS DEVICE (IR Extender) that would allow me to use the IR remote of the Lumagen from the theater. But it only works randomly (and very, very seldomly). It has something to do (I think) with the way the light hits the sensor. (I have tried multiple sensors and it happens with each of them.) So my question: I use Control4 and was wondering if anyone else who uses Control4 knows of any C4 software that will allow the Control4 remote to operate as the Lumagen remote? OR, if there is any other kind of non-IR remote that can be programmed to operate the Lumagen.

As of now, I have to take the IR sensor and attach it to the open door to the equipment room. Far less than ideal but it seems to work.
For the first one, the reason is simple when you think about it. I've seen people talk about the shape/transition function in this way too. With the new DTM and the more aggressive padding, there isn't nearly as much range being wasted, so when you change things the differences are MUCH smaller compared to what you were doing before. Each frame is much closer to a static tone map for that specific frame, so the range of manipulation is much smaller than what you had before (much larger pad or static). The amount of instances where you are going to see artifacts that may need a setting change is much smaller now (ON PURPOSE!) so that people don't feel like they have to fiddle (which is a really good thing since most owners don't even know what the settings are supposed to be doing in the first place!). With a DPAD of 3 there is a chance you could see some artifacts if you knew what to look for. You also loose a bit of saturation/contrast going that high but you get the brighter highlights. With a DPAD of 1 or 2 you're likely to see clipped whites more often, especially in darker/mid brightness scenes that have highlights. As you go to a higher number in DPAD (say a 6) you will get a bit more saturation in colors and overall contrast, but again, the difference isn't huge because of the way they are now doing the tone map and per frame adaptation.

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post #5812 of 5981 Old 10-13-2019, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Question (2): My equipment is in a room behind the screen. I installed THIS DEVICE (IR Extender) that would allow me to use the IR remote of the Lumagen from the theater. But it only works randomly (and very, very seldomly). It has something to do (I think) with the way the light hits the sensor. (I have tried multiple sensors and it happens with each of them.) So my question: I use Control4 and was wondering if anyone else who uses Control4 knows of any C4 software that will allow the Control4 remote to operate as the Lumagen remote? OR, if there is any other kind of non-IR remote that can be programmed to operate the Lumagen.

.
Why not control using an IP to IR converter, converting at the equipment being controlled. I am not familiar with Control4, but you may wish to check compatibility with something like:
https://www.amazon.com/Global-Cache-.../dp/B073XPV13V
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post #5813 of 5981 Old 10-13-2019, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Question (2): My equipment is in a room behind the screen. I installed THIS DEVICE (IR Extender) that would allow me to use the IR remote of the Lumagen from the theater. But it only works randomly (and very, very seldomly). It has something to do (I think) with the way the light hits the sensor. (I have tried multiple sensors and it happens with each of them.) So my question: I use Control4 and was wondering if anyone else who uses Control4 knows of any C4 software that will allow the Control4 remote to operate as the Lumagen remote? OR, if there is any other kind of non-IR remote that can be programmed to operate the Lumagen.

As of now, I have to take the IR sensor and attach it to the open door to the equipment room. Far less than ideal but it seems to work.
There are some Control4 bits here, I don't use Control4 but I figure they're likely useful for you:
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=control
Even if those modules don't do what you need, I can't believe it would be very hard to control a Lumagen from Control4. You literally only need to send single characters over the serial port to emulate the remote control keys, or use an IR emitter out of the control4 box to the front of the Lumagen.

Really though Control4 is an installer product - your installer should be able to sort this out a it is a simple problem. If they can't and they're leaving you to do it, new installer time...
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post #5814 of 5981 Old 10-13-2019, 01:14 PM
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For the first one, the reason is simple when you think about it. I've seen people talk about the shape/transition function in this way too. With the new DTM and the more aggressive padding, there isn't nearly as much range being wasted, so when you change things the differences are MUCH smaller compared to what you were doing before. Each frame is much closer to a static tone map for that specific frame, so the range of manipulation is much smaller than what you had before (much larger pad or static). The amount of instances where you are going to see artifacts that may need a setting change is much smaller now (ON PURPOSE!) so that people don't feel like they have to fiddle (which is a really good thing since most owners don't even know what the settings are supposed to be doing in the first place!). With a DPAD of 3 there is a chance you could see some artifacts if you knew what to look for. You also loose a bit of saturation/contrast going that high but you get the brighter highlights. With a DPAD of 1 or 2 you're likely to see clipped whites more often, especially in darker/mid brightness scenes that have highlights. As you go to a higher number in DPAD (say a 6) you will get a bit more saturation in colors and overall contrast, but again, the difference isn't huge because of the way they are now doing the tone map and per frame adaptation.

So would a rough translation of the above be that since the differences between DTM on and off are larger than they use to be, the differences in various DPad settings are smaller?

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There are some Control4 bits here, I don't use Control4 but I figure they're likely useful for you:
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=control
Even if those modules don't do what you need, I can't believe it would be very hard to control a Lumagen from Control4. You literally only need to send single characters over the serial port to emulate the remote control keys, or use an IR emitter out of the control4 box to the front of the Lumagen.

Really though Control4 is an installer product - your installer should be able to sort this out a it is a simple problem. If they can't and they're leaving you to do it, new installer time...
Thanks for posting this. When I originally installed my Radiance Pro 3.5 years ago, I didn't see the DVD Secondary IR driver to download. It looks like the installer will just need to add the "DVD Secondary IR" driver to the project and make a binding from the "Virtual Output - Video - HDMI" to an input on the AV Switch driver and make a binding from the DVD Secondary IR driver's IR Input to a Control4 controller IR output (plus either use the controller's front panel IR blaster or use a wired IR emitter).

I'm check to confirm this works the next time I am at my Austin house.

John
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post #5816 of 5981 Old 10-13-2019, 01:29 PM
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Thanks for posting this. When I originally installed my Radiance Pro 3.5 years ago, I didn't see the DVD Secondary IR driver to download. It looks like the installer will just need to add the "DVD Secondary IR" driver to the project and make a binding from the "Virtual Output - Video - HDMI" to an input on the AV Switch driver and make a binding from the DVD Secondary IR driver's IR Input to a Control4 controller IR output (plus either use the controller's front panel IR blaster or use a wired IR emitter).

I'm check to confirm this works the next time I am at my Austin house.
It' all double dutch to me (though I've designed product controlled by Control4 and other systems I'm not familiar with the Control4 language or usage). Anyway, hopefully those files will be useful for you. I did my own control myself using a raspberry Pi for auto aspect / screen masking control duties.
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post #5817 of 5981 Old 10-13-2019, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
For the first one, the reason is simple when you think about it. I've seen people talk about the shape/transition function in this way too. With the new DTM and the more aggressive padding, there isn't nearly as much range being wasted, so when you change things the differences are MUCH smaller compared to what you were doing before. Each frame is much closer to a static tone map for that specific frame, so the range of manipulation is much smaller than what you had before (much larger pad or static). The amount of instances where you are going to see artifacts that may need a setting change is much smaller now (ON PURPOSE!) so that people don't feel like they have to fiddle (which is a really good thing since most owners don't even know what the settings are supposed to be doing in the first place!). With a DPAD of 3 there is a chance you could see some artifacts if you knew what to look for. You also loose a bit of saturation/contrast going that high but you get the brighter highlights. With a DPAD of 1 or 2 you're likely to see clipped whites more often, especially in darker/mid brightness scenes that have highlights. As you go to a higher number in DPAD (say a 6) you will get a bit more saturation in colors and overall contrast, but again, the difference isn't huge because of the way they are now doing the tone map and per frame adaptation.

So would a rough translation of the above be that since the differences between DTM on and off are larger than they use to be, the differences in various DPad settings are smaller?
For the most part. If you went back to the static days the tone map was based on the brightest part of the movie. So the difference between the peak of a single scene and tells tone map was quite large u less you just happened to be on that peak scene. Then when DTM first was introduced the difference between a scene and the tone map got smaller, but there was still quite a bot of pad to account for right objects that may pop up in a scene so you wouldn’t see clipping. With the latest iteration the pad is much smaller so you have even less deviation. So if you run a DPAD of like 9 vs 1, the settings would show more latitude because you are using more padding. But with something like a 3 or 4 the gap between the tone map and the scene itself is tiny, so changing settings doesn’t show as much variation.
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I think you need to treat it like a problem of onion layers and work backwards. You don't say if you get the flashes without the Lumagen in circuit? If you want suggestions on how to set it up that might avoid the flashes you'll need to provide some more information:

1) exactly how is everything wired up?
2) define "do anything with my AVR" - as you say that causes green flashes? It it showing an OSD somewhere?
3) does it go away without the Lumagen in circuit?
4) If you play the content, what does the Lumagen UI say for input / output formats?
5) If you look at the UI, what does the Lumagen UI say for input / output formats?
6) Do you have genlock enabled for the inputs?

The above info would start to allow you to formulate an idea of things you could change to see if they affect the problem. I don't have any flashes, but I also have a JVC projector which blacks the screen for 10-15s. One thing I did early on with my JVC was disable the blue input background and corner display of HDMI input info as it made the presentation much cleaner - but those were both projector settings.

Have you contacted Lumagen support? They're very helpful and will have seen most issues before.
thanks for your response....

everything is very straightforward in terms of wiring, couldn't be simpler, atv4k into lumagen, out to pj (video) and avr (audio), genlock is set at default, haven't changed it.

it's become clear that it's an hdr handshake issue, happens with or without the lumagen in the loop, altho with the lumagen the handshakes are considerably longer as is the duration and intensity of the green flash (which fills the entire screen by the way).

disable hdr in the 4tv4k and everything is silky smooth.... i've tried every combo of hdr and sdr setting in the 4tv4k, matching on/off, and just about every lumagen input / output setting (fixed 60hz, color spaces, etc.), nothing mitigates the hdr issue.

it's either an epson pj issue or an hdmi cable issue, but given i've tried 3 different high quality certified 4k 18ghz cables and it was the same with all, i'm going to go with the epson... add to this lumagen warned me that epson hdmi inputs were a bit problematic when i informed lumagen that i had one on the way... if the epson blacked out the screen during these handshakes as the jvc does (i was told) instead of flashing green, it could be workable, but the constant green flashing whenever i start, stop, pause an hdr file is a real pain... i have a movie folder with about 30 hdr demo clips, very short in duration, that's a real treat to watch when set to play one after another, argh.

here's the thing, i could probably live with the issue, but pj hdr is so finicky i'm wondering if it's even worth it... every hdr title seems to respond entirely differently to the hdr settings, it's not even remotely close to a one size fits all proposition, for example i was testing "passengers" (hdr) and tweaked the hdr settings on the lumagen and pj a bit and got an absolutely stunning hdr picture, it's was very, very impressive, then tried i tried the "dark knight" (hdr) and a lot of it was blown out, then i tried "jurassic world" (hdr) and it was a completely new set of issues... that said, i could tweak the hdr setting for each title and get a stunning hdr picture, but who wants to do that every time they want to watch and hdr movie?

insult to injury, when i connect the same setup to my 60" lg oled 4k hdr tv, i.e. when i swap out the pj for the lg, everything works like a dream, especially hdr, silky smooth, no hint of green flashes, super quick handshakes, and the image is stunning, alas if i could only blow up the lg to 150"!

anyway, not sure where i'm going to go from here, non hdr movie files have been absolutely beautiful with the lumagen and epson, spectacular even, minus all of the handshake issues, maybe i'll just try that road for now, maybe even try some of these "harpervision" settings that reportedly ape hdr without enabling hdr.


off topic - does anyone know why paragraphs are double spacing when i post? this never used to happen, now i have to edit my posts in order to remove the double spacing.
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post #5819 of 5981 Old 10-14-2019, 12:29 AM
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For the ATV I typically set them up to be 4K60 SDR for the output with both range and rate match to ON. Chroma output is typically 444, but 420 works fine too. The Lumagen is designed to process and output in 422, so I would not recommend changing the output (neither would Lumagen) to 444. I've setup LOTS of ATVs this way in lots of different setups (including my own) with no issues other than the stupid audio drop outs when watching content that is specifically Dolby Vision with Dolby Atmos (I get no dropouts with Atmos tracks that are not tied to a DV title).
thanks for the response kris...

yes, that's one of the first things i did when i purchased the apple tv 4k, set it to 4k60 sdr, it was one of the many tips i came across in a youtube atv4k setup vid that i watched while waiting for it to arrive, have also tried chroma at 444 and 420 (and 422 with other atvk4 settings), made no difference with the handshake / green flash issues i'm having... also, fwiw, i have 9ghz output cards in my radiance pro (18ghz input cards), so setting the lumagen to 4k60 output mode results in 4:2:0 8-bit.
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thanks for your response....

everything is very straightforward in terms of wiring, couldn't be simpler, atv4k into lumagen, out to pj (video) and avr (audio), genlock is set at default, haven't changed it.

it's become clear that it's an hdr handshake issue, happens with or without the lumagen in the loop, altho with the lumagen the handshakes are considerably longer as is the duration and intensity of the green flash (which fills the entire screen by the way).

disable hdr in the 4tv4k and everything is silky smooth.... i've tried every combo of hdr and sdr setting in the 4tv4k, matching on/off, and just about every lumagen input / output setting (fixed 60hz, color spaces, etc.), nothing mitigates the hdr issue.

it's either an epson pj issue or an hdmi cable issue, but given i've tried 3 different high quality certified 4k 18ghz cables and it was the same with all, i'm going to go with the epson... add to this lumagen warned me that epson hdmi inputs were a bit problematic when i informed lumagen that i had one on the way... if the epson blacked out the screen during these handshakes as the jvc does (i was told) instead of flashing green, it could be workable, but the constant green flashing whenever i start, stop, pause an hdr file is a real pain... i have a movie folder with about 30 hdr demo clips, very short in duration, that's a real treat to watch when set to play one after another, argh.

here's the thing, i could probably live with the issue, but pj hdr is so finicky i'm wondering if it's even worth it... every hdr title seems to respond entirely differently to the hdr settings, it's not even remotely close to a one size fits all proposition, for example i was testing "passengers" (hdr) and tweaked the hdr settings on the lumagen and pj a bit and got an absolutely stunning hdr picture, it's was very, very impressive, then tried i tried the "dark knight" (hdr) and a lot of it was blown out, then i tried "jurassic world" (hdr) and it was a completely new set of issues... that said, i could tweak the hdr setting for each title and get a stunning hdr picture, but who wants to do that every time they want to watch and hdr movie?

insult to injury, when i connect the same setup to my 60" lg oled 4k hdr tv, i.e. when i swap out the pj for the lg, everything works like a dream, especially hdr, silky smooth, no hint of green flashes, super quick handshakes, and the image is stunning, alas if i could only blow up the lg to 150"!

anyway, not sure where i'm going to go from here, non hdr movie files have been absolutely beautiful with the lumagen and epson, spectacular even, minus all of the handshake issues, maybe i'll just try that road for now, maybe even try some of these "harpervision" settings that reportedly ape hdr without enabling hdr.
From what you are saying it seems most likely that the Epson has those flashes across changes in input formats.

In that case you'd want to do everything you can to minimize output changes from the Lumagen. Note these settings are usually 180 degrees away from what you'd want to do for best quality, but you're trying to work around an errant display here it seems so you don't have much choice.

One way to do that would be to sacrifice the framerate and dynamic range matching in the AppleTV. This should most likely prevent the green flashes. You'd need to set the AppleTV to 60p HDR output, and it would put SDR content within that HDR container, and turn 24p content into 60p. Some displays can perform an inverse telecine conversion on the 60p output to get back to 24p to fix up the motion - I'm not sure if your Epson can do that,

Another alternative is to leave the AppleTV doing match rate and match dynamic range, set the AppleTV UI to 24p as most netflix content is 24p these days, and set up the Lumagen to map SDR and HDR content into the same output (you can set them up to use the same CMS for output, with the gamut mapping option set in the output). It will then use your tone mapping settings for HDR and will remap SDR into this output. You may still get flashes though when switching to 60p content - you always have the option of disabling match rate and going with 60p out of the AppleTV, or you can make the Lumagen convert all 24p content to 60p. The later is a setup recommended by Lumagen for minimizing output mode changes.

Anyway, those are some things you could try. None are perfect, and it will depend on how much the green flashes are bothering you whether the compromises are worth it; it sounds like if the Epson PJ behaves that way without the Lumagen in circuit then you're just into making the best of a bad situation.

I really don't think static "Harpervision" settings are going to give you anything at all over a dynamic tone mapping solution. If they would then we're all wasting our time here with working on dynamic solutions... And it's not like that will solve your green flashes either it seems.
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