New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 195 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5821 of 5998 Old 10-15-2019, 03:08 AM
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yes, I also have problems with the latest firmware with hlg that I did not have with the previous one
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post #5822 of 5998 Old 10-15-2019, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
When I was helping Jim and Pat on the last big update to the tone mapping I was experimenting a lot with different things that showed there were limitations in highlights due to the "padding" used on the upper end to eliminate the chance for clipping/artifacts. I discussed with them the idea of doing a true "dynamic" tone map that enabled the user to adjust how aggressive to be when it came to the "pad" allowing the end user to vary a setting that would give more highlight pop at the expense of some possible artifacts (think of how a dynamic iris works and how more aggressive modes can sometimes show an artifact but give better results with blacks). DPad is exactly that. I've found that a level of 3 gives the best combination of highlight intensity with VERY little artifacts associated with it. 4 is also good and would give less artifacts at the expense of some highlight pop. 2 will likely show too many artifacts for most. 6 is about the same as what the DLev value of 8 was before, which is still quite good but I imagine once people have a taste of 3 or 4 they won't go back to 6.

As for the "adaptive feature", I reported some artifacts I was seeing to Pat to look at and they came to the conclusion that there is no way to eliminate them unless the Lumagen moved to an adaptive PER FRAME adjustment. This is now on by default and the default level is limited to a single adjustment per frame so that artifacts should be few and far between, if at all. There is a menu code that allows for further tweaking of this setting to be more aggressive, but I will leave that to Jim to decide if he wants to share that at this time. I haven't seen any artifacts with the default setting and it does help with the new dynamic modes, but moving to the next setting up (two adjustments per frame) does cause some very minor flickering at times depending on the scene (very similar to a quick flicker from a gamma adjustment in a dynamic contrast system).

So for this build end users shouldn't have to adjust any of their settings from before except that I would recommend they switch DPad to 3 or 4 to give better highlight results when watching content. Enjoy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Here is some info on the new DPAD function. I generally use a level of 3, but 4 is quite good as well and will probably have less of a chance of artifacts:

DPad=1 generally slightly below peak so will see more clipping, but will be
brighter (IN MY TESTING THERE ARE TOO MANY CLIPPING ARTIFACTS WITH THIS OR A LEVEL OF 2)

DPad=3 generally at scene peak or slightly higher (OCCASIONAL ARTIFACTS IN VERY DIFFICULT MATERIAL)

DPad=4 generally slightly higher than scene peak up to a reasonable amount (ARTIFACTS ARE RARE)
of pad depending on scene

DPad=6 closest to current Dlev of 8 (IF YOU LIKED WHAT YOU HAD BEFORE THIS UPDATE, USE THIS)

DPad=8 more pad then current with Dlev of 8
Hi Kris,

I am updating my Setup & Calibration Tips document with the new DTM Pad, and wanted to be sure I have interpreted correctly what you posted above about the DPad settings. In the below, I am trying to explain what happens with highlight intensity, color saturation, contrast, and artifacts at each level of adjustment. I totally made up 5 and 7, since I did not find any posts about those levels.

Thanks for your continued efforts in improving DTM. I plan on sharing this information once I have finished editing.

▪ Below are explanations of what you may see as you adjust the DPad levels as explained by Kris Deering in this post and this post. The differences may be hard to see due to the per-frame adjustments made by the Adaptive feature.

• Level 1: Greatest highlight intensity, least color saturation and contrast, with too many artifacts. This is generally slightly below peak, so clipped whites may appear more often, especially in darker/mid brightness scenes with highlights.

• Level 2: Increase highlight intensity, decreased color saturation and contrast, but will likely show too many artifacts.

• Level 3: The best combination of highlight intensity (pop), a slight loss of color saturation and contrast, with minimal artifacts. The artifacts would only be occasional in very difficult material. This is generally at scene peak or slightly higher.

• Level 4: Reduced highlight intensity, increased color saturation and contrast with extremely rare artifacts. This is generally slightly higher than scene peak up to a reasonable amount of pad.

• Level 5: Reduced highlight intensity, increased color saturation and contrast with no artifacts.

• Level 6: Reduced highlight intensity, increased color saturation and contrast with no artifacts. It is about the same as what the Dynamic Level value of 8 was in the prior releases, which is still quite good.

• Level 7: Reduced highlight intensity, increased color saturation and contrast with no artifacts.

• Level 8: Least highlight intensity, greatest color saturation and contrast, with no artifacts.
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Lumagen Radiance Pro HDR Tone Mapping Guide: Click Here

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post #5823 of 5998 Old 10-15-2019, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post
Hi Kris,

I am updating my Setup & Calibration Tips document with the new DTM Pad, and wanted to be sure I have interpreted correctly what you posted above about the DPad settings. In the below, I am trying to explain what happens with highlight intensity, color saturation, contrast, and artifacts at each level of adjustment. I totally made up 5 and 7, since I did not find any posts about those levels.

Thanks for your continued efforts in improving DTM. I plan on sharing this information once I have finished editing.

▪ Below are explanations of what you may see as you adjust the DPad levels as explained by Kris Deering in this post and this post. The differences may be hard to see due to the per-frame adjustments made by the Adaptive feature.

• Level 1: Greatest highlight intensity, least color saturation and contrast, with too many artifacts. This is generally slightly below peak, so clipped whites may appear more often, especially in darker/mid brightness scenes with highlights.

• Level 2: Increase highlight intensity, decreased color saturation and contrast, but will likely show too many artifacts.

• Level 3: The best combination of highlight intensity (pop), a slight loss of color saturation and contrast, with minimal artifacts. The artifacts would only be occasional in very difficult material. This is generally at scene peak or slightly higher.

• Level 4: Reduced highlight intensity, increased color saturation and contrast with extremely rare artifacts. This is generally slightly higher than scene peak up to a reasonable amount of pad.

• Level 5: Reduced highlight intensity, increased color saturation and contrast with no artifacts.

• Level 6: Reduced highlight intensity, increased color saturation and contrast with no artifacts. It is about the same as what the Dynamic Level value of 8 was in the prior releases, which is still quite good.

• Level 7: Reduced highlight intensity, increased color saturation and contrast with no artifacts.

• Level 8: Least highlight intensity, greatest color saturation and contrast, with no artifacts.
That all looks fine. I would generally NOT advise to use DPAD levels of 1 or 2 under any circumstances. Same would probably go for 7 or 8 unless you have a REALLY bright display and would like to get a bit more saturation/contrast. But I generally think that people that have a LOT of light output should chose to bring it down using something like an aperture to increase contrast. Remember, higher light output only helps HDR if you are not hurting your blacks and contrast to get it. Otherwise you are just getting a brighter highlight at the expense of all else. Once you hit about 30 fL (100 nits) or so, you shouldn't really need a lot more headroom for HDR unless you're just someone that is in love with an extremely bright image. Once you hit around that level I would concentrate on trying to get more contrast out of the image, this will do more for "highlights" than just making EVERYTHING bright.
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post #5824 of 5998 Old 10-15-2019, 09:42 AM
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Hello-
I've a general question about video processors. I'm looking for a TV for daytime viewing. I have a 1080P projector and can make my TV room reasonably dark. Even though it is too dark to read a book, contrast and details are still lost while watching in the afternoon. The problem with adding a flat panel is that most of the TV reviews talk about their motion processing being bad (except some Sony models, perhaps). I have a DVDO Edge currently and it does a pretty good job getting rid of these problems with most videos, but there are still plenty of stutter/judder problems.


For example,I am quite aware of what I think of as stutter in poorly transferred/authored European TV shows. The motion is just not smooth and it feels a bit like vertigo to watch some of those shows. The way I currently deal with European shows is to set my video player output to PAL, and have my EDGE convert it to 60 FPS. This almost gets rid of the problems.


Does it make sense to get something like a Lumagen to address these motion issues? Can it convert videos to 60 FPS without making the shows look awful. On a side issue, can it also tone down bright white subtitles?


Thanks in advance.
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post #5825 of 5998 Old 10-15-2019, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
That all looks fine. I would generally NOT advise to use DPAD levels of 1 or 2 under any circumstances. Same would probably go for 7 or 8 unless you have a REALLY bright display and would like to get a bit more saturation/contrast. But I generally think that people that have a LOT of light output should chose to bring it down using something like an aperture to increase contrast. Remember, higher light output only helps HDR if you are not hurting your blacks and contrast to get it. Otherwise you are just getting a brighter highlight at the expense of all else. Once you hit about 30 fL (100 nits) or so, you shouldn't really need a lot more headroom for HDR unless you're just someone that is in love with an extremely bright image. Once you hit around that level I would concentrate on trying to get more contrast out of the image, this will do more for "highlights" than just making EVERYTHING bright.
Thank you Kris. I have added the link to the document in Google Drive to my signature. When viewed with formatting in the Word document, I think it is clear that the reader is guided to use DPad level 3.

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post #5826 of 5998 Old 10-16-2019, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Question (1): I really like the newest Lumagen/DTM firmware update. The differences with it enabled and disabled are quite amazing. That said, when I adjust the DPad function, there is either zero or REALLY REALLY close to zero differences in the image even when comparing the lowest setting to the highest setting. Is there some scene that someone might recommend where adjusting this will show a clear difference?

Question (2): My equipment is in a room behind the screen. I installed THIS DEVICE (IR Extender) that would allow me to use the IR remote of the Lumagen from the theater. But it only works randomly (and very, very seldomly). It has something to do (I think) with the way the light hits the sensor. (I have tried multiple sensors and it happens with each of them.) So my question: I use Control4 and was wondering if anyone else who uses Control4 knows of any C4 software that will allow the Control4 remote to operate as the Lumagen remote? OR, if there is any other kind of non-IR remote that can be programmed to operate the Lumagen.

As of now, I have to take the IR sensor and attach it to the open door to the equipment room. Far less than ideal but it seems to work.
I use the same exact device and it works for me every time. I also have a Harmony RF system. I set up the IR repeater system, so that I could use the IR remotes for system setup, when I need to make changes to the system. Use the Harmony for everyday use.
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post #5827 of 5998 Old 10-16-2019, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Question (1): I really like the newest Lumagen/DTM firmware update. The differences with it enabled and disabled are quite amazing. That said, when I adjust the DPad function, there is either zero or REALLY REALLY close to zero differences in the image even when comparing the lowest setting to the highest setting. Is there some scene that someone might recommend where adjusting this will show a clear difference?
I tried different dPad levels with a scene in " Passengers " paused, and I could certainly see brightness differences going from 6 to 1! Seeing as I like a bright picture, 3 seemed just right.

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post #5828 of 5998 Old 10-16-2019, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I use the same exact device and it works for me every time.

It worked for a while and then it quit. If I put the receiver eye in my brightly lit equipment room, it works 100% of the time. If I put it where it was in the theater (just below the screen), it does NOT work 100% of the time - even if all of the theater lights are on. As of now, I open the door to the equipment room and attach the receiver eye to the open door and THEN it mostly works !!


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post #5829 of 5998 Old 10-17-2019, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
It worked for a while and then it quit. If I put the receiver eye in my brightly lit equipment room, it works 100% of the time. If I put it where it was in the theater (just below the screen), it does NOT work 100% of the time - even if all of the theater lights are on. As of now, I open the door to the equipment room and attach the receiver eye to the open door and THEN it mostly works !!


BIZARRE !!!
That is strange. I added an extender cable to the receiver and have it located at the front of the room, above my screen. My room is a black pit. Since my equipment room is on the floor below my theater, I was getting some dropout with my Harmony system. So I moved the Harmony hub into my theater room. I now have the harmony hub blaster sending the signal to the IR receiver in the room. This setup allows me to use Harmony for everyday use of the system and not have to point a remote and if I need to use the individual remote for changes or programing, I just aim them at the IR sensor.

Added
I am also using 35/40' existing component cables in the wall to extend the IR emitters from the BAFX to my equipment. So I am extending the receiver and extending the emitters. Probably a worst case scenario for use and it is working well for me.

Last edited by Mike Garrett; 10-17-2019 at 08:28 AM.
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post #5830 of 5998 Old 10-17-2019, 10:52 AM
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Goliath on Amazon Prime

After installing the new Lumagen software and using the default settings, I watched Dunkirk on disc, El Camino on Netflix and Lone Survivor on iTunes. El Camino and Lone Survivor were streamed from an Apple TV 4K. Both Dunkirk and Lone Survivor were beautiful, and El Camino was very good. My display is a Sony 885 projector, and the picture was more than bight enough on all of these films.

Then we come to Goliath from Amazon Prime. I streamed it in 4K on the Apple TV, and also a Fire TV stick. It looked terrible on both. The picture in 4K is so dim that it's like watching through a neutral density filter. I have noticed this on other Amazon Prime series. It was so bad that I watched most of the series on a Roku Ultra set to 1080p output. Is there any fix for this, or is it up to Amazon to fix it?
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post #5831 of 5998 Old 10-17-2019, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Z View Post
After installing the new Lumagen software and using the default settings, I watched Dunkirk on disc, El Camino on Netflix and Lone Survivor on iTunes. El Camino and Lone Survivor were streamed from an Apple TV 4K. Both Dunkirk and Lone Survivor were beautiful, and El Camino was very good. My display is a Sony 885 projector, and the picture was more than bight enough on all of these films.

Then we come to Goliath from Amazon Prime. I streamed it in 4K on the Apple TV, and also a Fire TV stick. It looked terrible on both. The picture in 4K is so dim that it's like watching through a neutral density filter. I have noticed this on other Amazon Prime series. It was so bad that I watched most of the series on a Roku Ultra set to 1080p output. Is there any fix for this, or is it up to Amazon to fix it?
I just went and checked Goliath on my RS3000 with Lumagen DTM and it looked fine. Slightly darker than some of the HDR that I watched, but nothing to complain about. I am streaming using a Roku Ultra. Now I am in a black pit of a room. If I had much ambient light, then it would have been too dark.
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post #5832 of 5998 Old 10-17-2019, 06:29 PM
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Hi,

QQ pls - I currently have a JVC RS620 and I just bought a used Lumagen 4242 18G. I have an HDfury integral 2 inline stripping HDR flag and sending RS232 commands to change to a custom HDR curve based on HDR metadata & enabling DI with HDR.

With the Lumagen I will use DTM for HDR:

1. Will I be able to enable DI? I guess I can keep the Integral inline and strip HDR flag and just switch to a single default HDR picture mode if no other method exists with the Lumagen to enable DI

2. I have not changed the gamma curve for the "HDR" default HDR picture mode (it is set at ST.2084) but have changed settings like "Picture Tone", "Dark Level", "Bright Level" etc. When using DTM do I want all of these settings at "0" or default value so as not to change the image coming from the Lumagen?

Thanks!
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Last edited by dgkula; 10-17-2019 at 08:17 PM.
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post #5833 of 5998 Old 10-18-2019, 03:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgkula View Post
Hi,

QQ pls - I currently have a JVC RS620 and I just bought a used Lumagen 4242 18G. I have an HDfury integral 2 inline stripping HDR flag and sending RS232 commands to change to a custom HDR curve based on HDR metadata & enabling DI with HDR.

With the Lumagen I will use DTM for HDR:

1. Will I be able to enable DI? I guess I can keep the Integral inline and strip HDR flag and just switch to a single default HDR picture mode if no other method exists with the Lumagen to enable DI

2. I have not changed the gamma curve for the "HDR" default HDR picture mode (it is set at ST.2084) but have changed settings like "Picture Tone", "Dark Level", "Bright Level" etc. When using DTM do I want all of these settings at "0" or default value so as not to change the image coming from the Lumagen?

Thanks!

You don't really need the Integral to strip the HDR flag. The Radiance can do this on its own. But to automatically switch to an HDR picture mode, you would need the macro functionality of the integral. With HDR flag stripped, you can use the DI.
In order to use DTM you have to switch the RS620 to Gamma 2.4. Picture Tone, Dark and Bright Level are only needed to get a straight Gamma 2.4.

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post #5834 of 5998 Old 10-18-2019, 04:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
But to automatically switch to an HDR picture mode, you would need the macro functionality of the integral.
You can have the Radiance Pro add the HDR flag back in (SDH2020) also.
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post #5835 of 5998 Old 10-18-2019, 07:54 AM
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You can have the Radiance Pro add the HDR flag back in (SDH2020) also.
That is extremely useful for the JVC N series, but no so much for an RS620.

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post #5836 of 5998 Old 10-18-2019, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
That is extremely useful for the JVC N series, but no so much for an RS620.
Oh right, does the 620 revert to gamma D like the 600 did then?

Adding the flag back in work perfectly for the Z1, so I assumed the 620 might work in a similar way.
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post #5837 of 5998 Old 10-18-2019, 08:30 AM
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Oh right, does the 620 revert to gamma D like the 600 did then?

Adding the flag back in work perfectly for the Z1, so I assumed the 620 might work in a similar way.
Yes, it reverts back to the ST.2084 gamma. Even if it is not quite as awful as gamma D, there never was a time when I would have wanted to use it.

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post #5838 of 5998 Old 10-18-2019, 09:18 AM
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Yes, it reverts back to the ST.2084 gamma. Even if it is not quite as awful as gamma D, there never was a time when I would have wanted to use it.
At least on the newer units (540/X7900) although it defaults to ST.2084 gamma you can set it to 2.4 gamma in the mode which is auto selected. I wouldn't use the auto-select for other reasons though - the JVC units aren't very good at tracking what they do with the iris across mode changes and power downs. Better to explicitly set the projector to a mode.
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Arrow FW Beta 100619

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...ncepro_updates

Beta 100619
- Posted 101819
Bugfix for issue updating from 082219 and getting no picture with forced output mode selection via "menu 0874" command.
Added P3 colorspace to 'ZY46FC' rs232 command.
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


Beta 100119
- Posted 100819
A small improvement to DTM (dynamic tone mapping) that improves some scenes with low light levels.
A small fix for starting up test patterns via rs232.
Fix for the Output: Styles: HDMI Format: Rate Match menu not allowing changes to rate match setting.
Couple other minor bugs fixed.
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware

HT: Oppo UDP-203 -> Lumagen RadiancePro 4446 {18 GHz input x2 & 18 GHz output x1 cards} - "new (112818 FW)" 18 GHz microcode - parallel outs to --> [Audio: Denon 5308CI] --> [Video: JVC RS520 FW v30.1]
HT Details: link
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post #5840 of 5998 Old 10-19-2019, 01:34 AM
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http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...ncepro_updates

Beta 100619
- Posted 101819
Bugfix for issue updating from 082219 and getting no picture with forced output mode selection via "menu 0874" command.
Added P3 colorspace to 'ZY46FC' rs232 command.
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware


Beta 100119
- Posted 100819
A small improvement to DTM (dynamic tone mapping) that improves some scenes with low light levels.
A small fix for starting up test patterns via rs232.
Fix for the Output: Styles: HDMI Format: Rate Match menu not allowing changes to rate match setting.
Couple other minor bugs fixed.
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware
Can these firmware upgrades be skipped?
In other words, if I install 100619 do I automatically get all the goodies of 100119?
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Can these firmware upgrades be skipped?
In other words, if I install 100619 do I automatically get all the goodies of 100119?
That's always the case with all Lumagen updates to date. The package includes everything, but the updater is smart enough if you don't run it in the forced mode to update only the bits it needs to in the flash memory (to save time). If you skip updates though the update time may be longer as the assumption in the posted time is that you are running the previous version.
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post #5842 of 5998 Old 10-19-2019, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
That's always the case with all Lumagen updates to date. The package includes everything, but the updater is smart enough if you don't run it in the forced mode to update only the bits it needs to in the flash memory (to save time). If you skip updates though the update time may be longer as the assumption in the posted time is that you are running the previous version.


How can i do forced mode

I do it without skip always and it’s take time


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post #5843 of 5998 Old 10-19-2019, 06:26 AM
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I use Auto Aspect Detection (which I love) but can't recall the keys to use to "freeze" it at the current aspect.


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post #5844 of 5998 Old 10-19-2019, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by A7mad78 View Post
How can i do forced mode

I do it without skip always and it’s take time


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I think you only use forced mode when something isn't working.
Set up FW update and go grab a beer or make a sandwich and be patient.

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post #5845 of 5998 Old 10-19-2019, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post
I think you only use forced mode when something isn't working.

Set up FW update and go grab a beer or make a sandwich and be patient.


Hahahah that’s what I do I install both of them and enjoy a cup of espresso and a cigar


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post #5846 of 5998 Old 10-19-2019, 06:52 AM
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My software update process is as follows:

1. Read on here or Lumagen's site that there is a new update.
2. Post on the UK forum to let readers there know incase they haven't seen this thread.
3. Wait up to a week for posts on here to see if any issues.
4. Check again no further updates (if so repeat 3).
5. Start the update and go and play my guitar...by the time I remember I'd started the update it's finished.

All being well I'll update next Saturday.
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post #5847 of 5998 Old 10-19-2019, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post
My software update process is as follows:

1. Read on here or Lumagen's site that there is a new update.
2. Post on the UK forum to let readers there know incase they haven't seen this thread.
3. Wait up to a week for posts on here to see if any issues.
4. Check again no further updates (if so repeat 3).
5. Start the update and go and play my guitar...by the time I remember I'd started the update it's finished.

All being well I'll update next Saturday.
Why so cautious? You can always revert to an older firmware.
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post #5848 of 5998 Old 10-19-2019, 07:35 AM
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Why so cautious? You can always revert to an older firmware.
Because I only tend to sit down and watch films at the weekend and I don't want to have to start rolling back software half way through a film...easier to wait and let the early adopters find the bugs (if there are any). No need to be on the bleeding edge all the time these days I find.

Not like there are any particular issues with the version I'm running anyway, so not really a hardship to watch 2-3 films on this version.

Otherwise there's a danger you end up like the MadVR guys; spend more time faffing about with the gear instead of watching films.
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post #5849 of 5998 Old 10-19-2019, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A7mad78 View Post
How can i do forced mode
I do it without skip always and it’s take time
I think you're misunderstanding me.

Forced mode isn't quicker, it forces all areas of flash to update I believe, so I think it always takes the same (long) time.

Normal mode is sometimes quicker depending, I believe, on whether it is just a "program" update or whether you also need an "FPGA" update. (my terms for the parts of the updates, there might be more separate parts or they may not be divided like that).

You can see the difference on the Lumagen support page, where some updates take 1 minute vs previous, and some take 5 minutes vs previous. (for what it is worth I think the 1m is generous even at 230k - it seems to take longer than that for a small update for me),

There is additionally the bootloader flashing mode, but I've only used this in the event of a bad flash (once only on the Pro) as it is a bit awkward - you need access to the power input to the box to be able to disconnect the power, reconnect the power, and then start flashing during the power up process.
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post #5850 of 5998 Old 10-19-2019, 11:10 AM
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The DTM update was a fix for some flickering I saw in some low light areas (BR2049 interrogation scene). There were also some framing issues with aspect. I've been running a beta of the software released for about a week or so now with no issues, so should be fine for updating to.

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