New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 199 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5941 of 6077 Old 11-07-2019, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
The brightness changes are a known issue. Pat has been working on the HLG update and I was told he has a fix for the brightness changes as well. He is working on an updated FPGA to implement these changes so expect to see it pretty soon.


That’s great ..

Thank u Kris


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post #5942 of 6077 Old 11-08-2019, 09:43 AM
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Had to roll back to an earlier version last night while watching Men in Black International. I hadn't noticed too many of the brightness changes watching other films but it felt like a strobe show it was changing so much. Just paused about 25 minutes in and rolled back and all is good in the world. Hopefully the fix is out soon!

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JVC RS3000, Panamorph Paladin DCR, 138", Lumagen Pro, Stewart 138" 2:35:1 Screen, Oppo UDP-203, DirecTV Genie, Marantz SR-6011, Emotiva XPA-5 Mains: Paradigm Prestige 85F, Center: Paradigm Prestige 55C, Sides: Paradigm Prestige 15B, Rears: Paradigm Atom V6 Atmos: Paradigm P65-R Sub: Rhythmik FV18, GIK Acoustic Room Treatments
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post #5943 of 6077 Old 11-08-2019, 10:00 AM
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I finally pulled the trigger and bought David's 4442. (Thanks Dave)

I'm diving into Giomania's reference guides. (thanks James)

I'd also welcome any tips for use with my x990 from other JVC/eshift users, so feel free to post or send me a PM to help me get my new box dialed in.

"As your mother tells you, and my mother certainly told me, it is important, she always used to say, always to try new things." Hannibal Lecter


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post #5944 of 6077 Old 11-08-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
I finally pulled the trigger and bought David's 4442. (Thanks Dave)

I'm diving into Giomania's reference guides. (thanks James)

I'd also welcome any tips for use with my x990 from other JVC/eshift users, so feel free to post or send me a PM to help me get my new box dialed in.

"As your mother tells you, and my mother certainly told me, it is important, she always used to say, always to try new things." Hannibal Lecter
Do you have meters and LUT based calibration SW?
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post #5945 of 6077 Old 11-08-2019, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Do you have meters and LUT based calibration SW?
Chad did my initial setup (200ish hours) because I was totally unfamiliar with the nuances of HDR and the JVC eshift series.

I was considering having Chad return if/when I acquired a Lumagen Pro.

I have a Spyder 5 and an Extech light meter. My CalMan seat is way expired but I have HCFR I never used. So, not the preferred tools to get the best results.

I'm approaching 1400 hours on my 1st lamp, so I'm in the zone for a possible gamma droop touch up anyway. Or I could install and burn in my new lamp, recal and keep the current lamp as a back up.

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post #5946 of 6077 Old 11-08-2019, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadeRF View Post
Had to roll back to an earlier version last night while watching Men in Black International. I hadn't noticed too many of the brightness changes watching other films but it felt like a strobe show it was changing so much. Just paused about 25 minutes in and rolled back and all is good in the world. Hopefully the fix is out soon!
Can you just install an earlier firmware version like normal ? I've never gone " backwards ", so these things are good to know.
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post #5947 of 6077 Old 11-08-2019, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Can you just install an earlier firmware version like normal ? I've never gone " backwards ", so these things are good to know.
Ya, I just downloaded and ran the 092019 beta and installed as normal. It took about 5 minutes as I assume it had to rewrite the whole thing as opposed to a small piece when doing a forward update.

Theater Equipment list:
JVC RS3000, Panamorph Paladin DCR, 138", Lumagen Pro, Stewart 138" 2:35:1 Screen, Oppo UDP-203, DirecTV Genie, Marantz SR-6011, Emotiva XPA-5 Mains: Paradigm Prestige 85F, Center: Paradigm Prestige 55C, Sides: Paradigm Prestige 15B, Rears: Paradigm Atom V6 Atmos: Paradigm P65-R Sub: Rhythmik FV18, GIK Acoustic Room Treatments
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post #5948 of 6077 Old 11-08-2019, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Chad did my initial setup (200ish hours) because I was totally unfamiliar with the nuances of HDR and the JVC eshift series.

I was considering having Chad return if/when I acquired a Lumagen Pro.

I have a Spyder 5 and an Extech light meter. My CalMan seat is way expired but I have HCFR I never used. So, not the preferred tools to get the best results.

I'm approaching 1400 hours on my 1st lamp, so I'm in the zone for a possible gamma droop touch up anyway. Or I could install and burn in my new lamp, recal and keep the current lamp as a back up.
IMHO for very best results you want a profile of your display in the modes you'll use for SDR and HDR in the most linear modes you can, converted into a REC709 3D LUT (BT1886 gamma) and a P3 3DLUT (2.4 gamma). These provide a "reference" base so then what you're looking at should be correct colour plus the excellent Lumagen tone mapping. In my experience to date Lightspace generates the best LUTs consistently. They've just added the ability to generate the 1D separate from the 3D which gives an extra level of accuracy.

My own X7900 doesn't reach REC709 gamut without the filter in, so I have two modes, both with the filter in place, but with the HDR mode having the iris more open than SDR (I use -9 for SDR and -3 for HDR currently). You can have the Lumagen switch the projector between modes (with some limitations) using the HDR gamma flag over HDMI (can only select certain modes), or you can do what I did and have some external control switch modes in the projector over IP or RS232. That allows you to pick user modes for HDR vs SDR signals.

I use a bit of a hack that "works for me" which allows you to use profile off (the very most linear mode on a JVC, without colour management or even the gamma autocal) with the filter in place. This means my gamma droop is also corrected in the 1DLUT in the Lumagen.

Set up CMS0 set to REC709. CMS1 set to DCIP3. CMS1 with DTM enabled, DML to around 6x your max measured nits, low ratio set to make the effective nits = 2x the measured peak nits. I have DSAT set to 0, which is supposed to prevent / reduce colour desaturation hue shift. It presently doesn't fully do this, but there is an update in the works to fix the behaviour.

-

The above represents what I think is a "reference" calibration for a JVC with a Lumagen, but starting from zero. If you're just trying to use it with your existing calibration; assuming your REC709 cal is good you don't need to load a LUT for that. If the HDR mode calibration is also tracking right for REC2020, then you don't need a LUT for that either and can set the output for CMS1 to 2020SDR output (but with the HDR flag to switch modes) and set the gamma to be 2.4 gamma curve in the projector. Then tune the DTM parameters as above (DML, low ratio, DSAT).

Anyway, that's what I'd do. If you are usually in the capable hands of a calibrator then I'm sure either Chad or Kris could help you get set up remotely to a pretty good level until a calibration makes sense with lamp etc in consideration. Good luck!
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post #5949 of 6077 Old 11-08-2019, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
IMHO for very best results you want a profile of your display in the modes you'll use for SDR and HDR in the most linear modes you can, converted into a REC709 3D LUT (BT1886 gamma) and a P3 3DLUT (2.4 gamma). These provide a "reference" base so then what you're looking at should be correct colour plus the excellent Lumagen tone mapping. In my experience to date Lightspace generates the best LUTs consistently. They've just added the ability to generate the 1D separate from the 3D which gives an extra level of accuracy.
Spoiler!


I need to run this thru Google translate.

I can live without the automation, as it helps me stay better connected to what tech choices were/are being made. Once I get a few weeks, months away from the initial tech process by being insulated thru automation, my old brain forgets too much. But I will look into how to execute the IP connection.

My 1st follow up for the short term, what should be i thinking about with 2x 18g inputs and 2x 9g inputs? I will probably leave any 1080SDR devices routed thru the AVR. The 9g limitation is 4k60 420, correct?

A remote consultation sounds like a great idea until I can work out an onsite visit. Thanks. I'll definitely do my homework and experiment to make the most of that step.

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post #5950 of 6077 Old 11-09-2019, 01:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
[/Spoiler]

I need to run this thru Google translate.

I can live without the automation, as it helps me stay better connected to what tech choices were/are being made. Once I get a few weeks, months away from the initial tech process by being insulated thru automation, my old brain forgets too much. But I will look into how to execute the IP connection.

My 1st follow up for the short term, what should be i thinking about with 2x 18g inputs and 2x 9g inputs? I will probably leave any 1080SDR devices routed thru the AVR. The 9g limitation is 4k60 420, correct?

A remote consultation sounds like a great idea until I can work out an onsite visit. Thanks. I'll definitely do my homework and experiment to make the most of that step.
Hehe, professional calibrators certainly earn their money in terms of what they need to know (across how many different devices they calibrate) and the quality of equipment they use. At the end of the day if you are interested enough and prepared to invest in software and equipment you can make a very good go at it yourself, but given the amount of money on gear and time I have spent I sometimes doubt it was worth my own efforts.

I don't have any 9G inputs or outputs, but I believe that in general you probably want sources you'll watch HDR from routed through the 18G inputs if you can. This is because they sometimes will limit their HDR capabilities if they're not connected to an 18G input.

I usually have player device UIs set to SDR23.976p. This makes UI motion look worse, but is one of your only options to reduce blank times on the JVC units that doesn't come at a compromise to video quality. The other options (disabling rate match / genlock / converting everything to 59.94p) all result in not watching video as intended. If the JVC blank times don't worry you then set the player UIs to 59.94p and enjoy the smoother UI motion.

If you're wanting to colour correct your SDR sources connected to the AVR you'll need to route them to the Lumagen.

Note there are some devices that currently have the odd audio issues when routed through the Lumagen for Audio:
1) AppleTV4k dropped samples (resulting in clicks) in some DV titles that have changing metadata being output as HDR10. Can be every 5m05s or 0m30s depending on content (maybe other intervals).
2) Samsung UHD players skipping chapters can lose audio when playing bitstream HD audio.

Because of the above I have some sources connected to my AVR directly to avoid these audio issues.

My system is:

AppleTV
Samsung UHD player
Lumagen audio output
Connected to AVR ins

PC
Oppo player
Set top Box
AVR video output
Connected to Lumagen ins

JVC projector
Connected to Lumagen out.

You do ideally need some kind of a Harmony remote to manage the above as if you mistakenly leave the AVR connected to the Lumagen audio output and set the Lumagen to the AVR video output you'll likely create an HDCP loop and end up with no image (not even from the Lumagen OSD). So the above setup lets me watch devices that have known issues with audio via the Lumagen to bypass it for audio, but devices which don't seem to (like the Oppo player) connect directly to the Lumagen for the purest signal patch.
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post #5951 of 6077 Old 11-09-2019, 02:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
My own X7900 doesn't reach REC709 gamut without the filter in
I guess you mean DCI-P3?
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post #5952 of 6077 Old 11-09-2019, 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
I guess you mean DCI-P3?
No, I mean REC709.

It is not uncommon for JVC projector to fall short of 100% REC709 coverage without the filter in.
both samples of X7900 that I've had have been afflicted by this. I've had some previous generation units that have been closer to REC709 - my X3 was closest, and my X30 was a little bit shorter than the X3 (but better than the X7900.

They exceed it in the y direction but the green primary is rotated in hue about the neutral axis towards red in the x direction, so you have a gamut that is bigger in size than REC709 but can't actually cover all the colours in REC709. So the gamut can be claimed to be bigger than 100% REC709 but it isn't actually able to cover 100% REC709.

Those that are short of REC709 green due to being off-hue without the filter also won't be able to reach DCIP3 green with the filter.
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post #5953 of 6077 Old 11-09-2019, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post

It is not uncommon for JVC projector to fall short of 100% REC709 coverage without the filter in.
I had no idea. Always thought you would only need the filter for DCI-P3/BT2020.
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post #5954 of 6077 Old 11-09-2019, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ShadeRF View Post
I have the 4240 so this isn't really an option for me. I guess I'm just going to have to look into a different player, and as you've mentioned preferably one that supports Atmos. I've been a little peeved that the app on the Roku never received an update to do Atmos when Atmos is perfectly fine in other apps.
The lack of atmos with Roku on Netflix is a Netflix problem, not Roku problem. Roku will have atmos as soon as Netflix sets it up.
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post #5955 of 6077 Old 11-09-2019, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Eventidal View Post
I had no idea. Always thought you would only need the filter for DCI-P3/BT2020.
It's more severe with low lamp, too. If you can use high lamp you'll be much closer to hitting it. Mine is very close in high lamp, less so in low lamp.
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post #5956 of 6077 Old 11-10-2019, 05:29 AM
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How does it work when using 3D with a Radiance Pro with a DCR lens?

The problem is that 1080p has to be send out to the projector to even do 3D, but with 1080p the lense is squeezing the picture, making it smaller horizontally.
I think this is rather generic, but as Sony 5000 owner maybe there is something specific that can be done?
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post #5957 of 6077 Old 11-10-2019, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Roland Janus View Post
How does it work when using 3D with a Radiance Pro with a DCR lens?

The problem is that 1080p has to be send out to the projector to even do 3D, but with 1080p the lense is squeezing the picture, making it smaller horizontally.
I think this is rather generic, but as Sony 5000 owner maybe there is something specific that can be done?
Can the Sony still scale to panel width? This is an issue on the 4k JVCs where even in Anamorphic C or D mode 3D scales up from 1920 to 3840, but not 4096 wide and so you are left with side bars.

(On the JVC I'm still playing around with a second lens memory to zoom 3840 wide to fill the screen and on the Lumagen set a different aspect ratio to counteract using None/C/D mode on the JVC)

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I'm having a lip sync issue in my setup consisting of a Marantz 8802, Lumagen pro, and my JVC rs540. I tried setting the audio delay on the Marantz to 200ms, but that still isnt fixing it. I'm wondering if i'm possibly using an incorrect configuration? I have Output 1 going to the Marantz input 1 (which could this potentially be the issue? I just need the marantz to pass through Audio), and output 2 going to my projector. Any ideas?

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post #5959 of 6077 Old 11-10-2019, 04:38 PM
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ive been using Lightspace 3DLUT with madVR for my movies and the lut makes a huge difference in image quality so i ve been wanting to have the same for all my sources, mainly pc gaming / ps4 / netflix etc... , so i think my only option is the Radiance pro .

Is the lumagen upgradable in terms of HDMI 2.1 ? this is very important for pc gaming and might be available in the upcoming graphic cards , also whoever is using lumagen with a PC , is there any issues one should know of ?

Also if i input all my sources to my AV receiver that would mean i only need the Radiance pro with 1input/1output to apply it to all , m i correct ?

thank you.

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post #5960 of 6077 Old 11-10-2019, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
... If you're wanting to colour correct your SDR sources connected to the AVR you'll need to route them to the Lumagen.
Are there any dynamic gamma/luminance mapping type tools for SDR content?

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post #5961 of 6077 Old 11-10-2019, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naylorman32 View Post
I'm having a lip sync issue in my setup consisting of a Marantz 8802, Lumagen pro, and my JVC rs540. I tried setting the audio delay on the Marantz to 200ms, but that still isnt fixing it. I'm wondering if i'm possibly using an incorrect configuration? I have Output 1 going to the Marantz input 1 (which could this potentially be the issue? I just need the marantz to pass through Audio), and output 2 going to my projector. Any ideas?
This is typically a setup issue in the Marantz. Go to the audio setup and make sure that lip-synch is OFF in the processor. I see this on a lot and it always causes issues. I would suggest the Spears and Munsil Benchmark discs (either the Blu-ray or 4K Blu-ray) and use the AV synch pattern to set lipsynch properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
ive been using Lightspace 3DLUT with madVR for my movies and the lut makes a huge difference in image quality so i ve been wanting to have the same for all my sources, mainly pc gaming / ps4 / netflix etc... , so i think my only option is the Radiance pro .

Is the lumagen upgradable in terms of HDMI 2.1 ? this is very important for pc gaming and might be available in the upcoming graphic cards , also whoever is using lumagen with a PC , is there any issues one should know of ?

Also if i input all my sources to my AV receiver that would mean i only need the Radiance pro with 1input/1output to apply it to all , m i correct ?

thank you.
No upgrade to HDMI 2.1 being discussed and when that time comes it will likely be for a new Radiance. I would also NEVER recommend sources going to your AVR then to the Lumagen, causes all kinds of HDMI synch issues. Should always be sources to Radiance to AVR/Processor for best performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Are there any dynamic gamma/luminance mapping type tools for SDR content?
Not even sure what this means. You can do multiple calibration for SDR (say one that is power gamma and one that is 1886) but not sure what you mean by "dynamic". SDR content is typically mastered in 1886 or a power 2.4 gamma and displays are calibrated accordingly.
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post #5962 of 6077 Old 11-10-2019, 06:55 PM
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[QUOTE=Kris Deering;58802080]This is typically a setup issue in the Marantz. Go to the audio setup and make sure that lip-synch is OFF in the processor. I see this on a lot and it always causes issues. I would suggest the Spears and Munsil Benchmark discs (either the Blu-ray or 4K Blu-ray) and use the AV synch pattern to set lipsynch properly.

Thanks Kris. So Lip Synch is off, and like i said i tried all the way up to 200ms audio delay. i dont think ive ever seen this type of issue before, at least one i couldnt fix just with the audio delay. I'm going to grab one of the discs tonight once i find one online, just to be safe.

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post #5963 of 6077 Old 11-11-2019, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Naylorman32 View Post
Thanks Kris. So Lip Synch is off, and like i said i tried all the way up to 200ms audio delay. i dont think ive ever seen this type of issue before, at least one i couldnt fix just with the audio delay. I'm going to grab one of the discs tonight once i find one online, just to be safe.
Unlikely, but also check Input->Options->Video Delay is not set as that can be used to add over 100ms of extra video delay.

+1 for the Spears & Munsil lip sync video being really great. I've never had good luck with other methods to dial in easily, but the flashing light going back and forth made it super easy to set perfectly in just a few seconds. Another reason to have their disk in your toolkit.
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post #5964 of 6077 Old 11-11-2019, 02:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post
Are there any dynamic gamma/luminance mapping type tools for SDR content?
I'm not sure what you're asking for. For SDR - in particular with a JVC projector - I don't see any good reason to want to try and do anything "dynamic" with the gamma, just set is correctly to BT1886 and have a reference SDR presentation without adulteration. I believe you'll want to do that either with JVC Autocal, a custom JVC gamma curve or using the Lumagen 1D/3DLUT (I do mine in the 1D/3DLUT so I'm hazy on the detail of the other two methods).

The old SDR Radiance units had a "dynamic contrast" function courtesy of the gennum VXP chip, but there isn't anything like that on these units.

Each CMS does have a gamma tweak option which does allow you to tweak the gamma, or you can edit it manually using the 21pt greyscale control.
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post #5965 of 6077 Old 11-11-2019, 02:34 AM
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I would also NEVER recommend sources going to your AVR then to the Lumagen, causes all kinds of HDMI synch issues. Should always be sources to Radiance to AVR/Processor for best performance.
I think it is a good aim to have all sources routed via the Lumagen, but not always possible.

There are 2 devices I have - AppleTV4k and a Samsung M8500 UHD player - where the workarounds to get solid audio performance through the Lumagen are IMHO worse or more limiting than the potential for HDMI sync issues (at least with my Arcam AVR550 which appears to tolerate the setup a few posts up). They both affect 18G inputs only I believe (I don't have any 9G input cards to check).

The AppleTV4k has audio dropouts with some HDR content with varying metadata - which though by all accounts a spec violation it seems is the world we live in (thanks, Apple). They're particularly noticeable if you have MAT Atmos out enabled as they break the bitstream, which causes a problem with the decoding in the AVR. You can still (just) make them out even if you disable Atmos (though it helps to know where the glitches happen as they can be very subtle). On affected titles the only way to remove it completely is to watch in SDR. So for that reason my AppleTV4k goes direct to the AVR.

The Samsung UHD player when skipping chapter switches audio output formats from bitstream to PCM and back very quickly, which it seems upsets the input on the Lumagen Pro and can result in you losing audio until the input card gets reset (switching to the other input on the card and back again seems to fix it usually). Switching to PCM out appears to fix / alleviate it, though you'll lose Atmos.

From what I understand from going back and forth extensively with Jim and Patrick on the issues above they're both acknowledged and both appear down to device interactions with the microcode from Silicon Image for the input cards. I do sympathise as in my own work I often end up finding all kinds of issues with vendor supplied blobs that you can't control. Hopefully Silicon Image will provide a working microcode, but until they do I can't run all the devices via the Lumagen exclusively (which I would prefer).
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post #5966 of 6077 Old 11-11-2019, 08:24 AM
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Can the Sony still scale to panel width? This is an issue on the 4k JVCs where even in Anamorphic C or D mode 3D scales up from 1920 to 3840, but not 4096 wide and so you are left with side bars.

(On the JVC I'm still playing around with a second lens memory to zoom 3840 wide to fill the screen and on the Lumagen set a different aspect ratio to counteract using None/C/D mode on the JVC)
Anamorphic mode on the PJ while sending 1080p?
Probably, but wouldn't I need to have not send exactly 1080p with the Lumagen then?
Confused
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post #5967 of 6077 Old 11-11-2019, 09:25 AM
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... Not even sure what this means. You can do multiple calibration for SDR (say one that is power gamma and one that is 1886) but not sure what you mean by "dynamic". SDR content is typically mastered in 1886 or a power 2.4 gamma and displays are calibrated accordingly.
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I'm not sure what you're asking for.
Please pardon my brain f*art. Yes, all I need are solid fundamentals because the source content has been mastered to well established standards.

My Bad!

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post #5968 of 6077 Old 11-11-2019, 09:51 AM
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Anamorphic mode on the PJ while sending 1080p?
Probably, but wouldn't I need to have not send exactly 1080p with the Lumagen then?
Confused
If using anamorphic modes in the projector, the Lumagen would be set for 1920x1080 with a 1.78 (16:9) aspect so that it sends the 3D through 1:1.
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post #5969 of 6077 Old 11-11-2019, 10:20 AM
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Please pardon my brain f*art. Yes, all I need are solid fundamentals because the source content has been mastered to well established standards.

My Bad!

So if you already have the ChadB gamma curve that you want in the projector you don't need to do anything, it will still be there for REC709 content (for which the default is to pass through as is).

When you next get calibrated you get the choice I guess of keeping the SDR gamma cal in the PJ or doing it in the Lumagen. I don't know if there is much reason to prefer one over the other - I think you may get more precision and granularity in the projector at present (especially if you upload a curve using the ARVE tools), but the Lumagen can be more convenient (especially if you're doing stuff with the 3DLUTs anyway). There has been talk of increases in both the number of control points for the 1D and increased pipeline precision - not sure where those are on the dev priorities these days.
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post #5970 of 6077 Old 11-11-2019, 05:36 PM
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Please pardon my brain f*art. Yes, all I need are solid fundamentals because the source content has been mastered to well established standards.

My Bad!

Interesting graph. I'm surprised that the upper end of the 1886 curve is so far away from 2.4. Chad's almost looks like a rolling 2.35 curve, but the 1886 is a head scratcher. Was your overall contrast just really low so it moved the white point that far down?

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