New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 230 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6871 of 6915 Old 02-14-2020, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
Funny you should mention ripped discs... we of course tested the Lumagen with my Oppo 203 and retail discs and I had totally forgotten how horrible disc menus can be. I had never set up my 203 for discs so my buddy got it set up right. We did test ripped discs on both HTPC (no MadVR DTM) and Nvidia Shield running through the Lumagen and when compared it to the retail disc (Oppo via Lumagen) and we really could not see any difference but we did not expect to. We also tested retail discs and ripped discs to the RS3000 via Oppo and Shield and let the JVC do the DTM and we were not impressed. Yes, much better than pre-3.01 firmware but no where near both Lumagen or MadVR. Explosions and fire is one major place where the JVC DTM lacks.

As far as noise form the Envy, if most of us can easily do HTPCs that are absolutely silent then the Envy can be made the same. My HTPC has Noctua fans, a Corsair PSU (fans never ever spin), and the RTX2070 also never spins up the fans even with HSTM. I do have an active fan cooled CPU but I can easily swap it out if I could hear it from my sitting position. With 95% of the work being done via GPU, the CPU fan is always running in low speed.

To be honest, I am not biased towards my ISCO IIIL over the DCR. I think the DCR is a great piece of equipment. I am biased to the fact that I do not like leaving the lens in place for 16:9 content since using it that way requires throwing away ~20% of your actual resolution. I just can't do that. So if the DCR had a better option for motorized sled then I would be absolutely on board. Yes, you can add a sled but on some projectors, not my RS3000, that can't be done due to the lens having to be so close to the projector...so I've heard. Trust me, it would be SOOOOO much easier to leave my ISCO IIIL in place 100% of the time (no sled) if I did not have a type-a OCD about throwing out ~20% of my pretty pixels.

Now, a blind test of both the DCR vs IIIL and/or the Lumagen vs MadVR HTPC/Envy could only be done with two projectors at the exact same time. That would be a fun experiment that I would love to attend.
I'm with you there. Lucky for me, just removing the lens is about as much trouble for me as pulling a wine cork.
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post #6872 of 6915 Old 02-14-2020, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I'm with you there. Lucky for me, just removing the lens is about as much trouble for me as pulling a wine cork.
I wish I could do that. At 150" screen I have to run high lamp and the fan noise bothered me too much. So much so that I had to build that monstrosity of a hush box.
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post #6873 of 6915 Old 02-14-2020, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by loggeo View Post
Lumagen was calibrated to dci/p3 gamma 2.4 and madvr to dci/p3 gamma 2.2.
Is gamma potentially a major difference in these comparisons? Are tests apples to apples? 2.4 for Lumagen and 2.2 for MadVR seem to be the norm.

(Loggeo, I'm not picking on you here. Just using your post as a reference for how the two devices are usually set up)

I wish I had time to play. I bought PC bits in September, and a 2070 Super in November - basically all the same bits as Killroy it seems! - and built the PC in December to try out MadVR, but still no time to actually drag it down to the theater
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post #6874 of 6915 Old 02-14-2020, 03:12 PM
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Thought I'd chime in as I've seen my name dropped in this a lot and this thread is turning into the Envy thread rather than the Radiance thread.

I've said from the start that I'm extremely excited to see the Envy and that continues unabated. Madshi's reputation for scaling and tone mapping alone would make me want to see this ASAP. I did get a glimpse at CEDIA but not under ideal conditions, so I didn't make any judgements in quality given their limitations at the show. I did like their interface and some of the demos shown, but I will reserve final judgement for final product in a controlled environment on a calibrated display.

I do have a few concerns about MadVR in general though. They are new to the market and have entered a market that is niche at best with a very expensive product. I wish them the best in their endeavor but worry about longevity of market simply because this is not a big market. I have also seen a lot of comments from them in the Envy thread that make me cautious because at times I don't feel like they understand the market they are diving into. There is no doubt that scaling and tone mapping are old hat by now for them, but comments about not understanding why per input memories/setups would be needed or plug and play operation without the need for a manual come off a bit naive when it comes to advanced video processors and the systems they are installed in. I setup Lumagen processors in the field all the time, and do remote setup for clients before they even arrive at their doorstep. Can you plug a source into a Lumagen and then to the display and get a usable picture, ABSOLUTELY! In fact, based on their description of plug and play, you are already there with a Lumagen in the general sense. Just turn DTM on and it is already setup for a 100 nit setup for the most part. But it is VERY rare that I see setups that are this simplified. Instead you have screens with varying aspect ratios, legacy equipment that needs work arounds, various calibrations for multiple zooms/screens/displays and more. The reason some say the Lumagen is a complex piece is because it is designed to solve complex problems and requires a lot of resources and options to do it. I haven't seen any of that discussed in the Envy thread, only scaling and tone mapping. I want to see how it performs with advanced setups that require a lot fo fine tuning for ease of use and best performance. They represent the vast majority of Radiance setups I do, so I would expect the same level of flexibility and problem solving out of a product at the same price and certainly at a price premium.

The next concern is the single input design. I've seen way too many AVR/Pre-Pro's with HDMI issues to think this is going to be a good solution. Just looking at the high end market and all the HDMI issues I've seen with products like the Trinnov has me cringing. But hopefully it plays out okay. I think this can make overall operation a bit more tedious for those that need per input customization, but that tends to be a bit smaller of a group in my experience (though I still do it quite often, especially for those with legacy sources that need special EDID exceptions). A video processor for high end setups needs to be able to excel and not only the core video services (de-interlacing/scaling/tone mapping) but also at eliminating issues and creating a more user friendly viewing experience. With 99% of my Radiance clients, the only thing they have to do is turn them on and select an input and it resolves all the issues they had before. Until we start seeing people implementing Envy's into systems with varying degrees of issues that need workarounds, we won't know how they perform.

At some point I hope to have the chance to do some controlled comparisons with the Envy, I'm as excited to see how it performs compared to the Radiance as anyone. If I get the chance I'd be happy to have MadVR/Lumagen participate if they'd like to, as well as others that may want to come see for themselves.
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post #6875 of 6915 Old 02-14-2020, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by dlinsley View Post
Is gamma potentially a major difference in these comparisons? Are tests apples to apples? 2.4 for Lumagen and 2.2 for MadVR seem to be the norm.

(Loggeo, I'm not picking on you here. Just using your post as a reference for how the two devices are usually set up)

I wish I had time to play. I bought PC bits in September, and a 2070 Super in November - basically all the same bits as Killroy it seems! - and built the PC in December to try out MadVR, but still no time to actually drag it down to the theater

What we want to compare is the dtm. For optimal results Lumagen suggests calibrating to gamma 2.4, madvr to gamma 2.2. Then they do their magic.
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post #6876 of 6915 Old 02-14-2020, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Killroy View Post

To be honest, I am not biased towards my ISCO IIIL over the DCR. I think the DCR is a great piece of equipment. I am biased to the fact that I do not like leaving the lens in place for 16:9 content since using it that way requires throwing away ~20% of your actual resolution. I just can't do that. So if the DCR had a better option for motorized sled then I would be absolutely on board. Yes, you can add a sled but on some projectors, not my RS3000, that can't be done due to the lens having to be so close to the projector...so I've heard. Trust me, it would be SOOOOO much easier to leave my ISCO IIIL in place 100% of the time (no sled) if I did not have a type-a OCD about throwing out ~20% of my pretty pixels.

Now, a blind test of both the DCR vs IIIL and/or the Lumagen vs MadVR HTPC/Envy could only be done with two projectors at the exact same time. That would be a fun experiment that I would love to attend.
I actually replaced my ISCO IIIL with a Paladin DCR. I even managed to keep the same (manual) custom slide. It works perfectly with my rs3000.
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post #6877 of 6915 Old 02-14-2020, 04:31 PM
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I actually replaced my ISCO IIIL with a Paladin DCR. I even managed to keep the same (manual) custom slide. It works perfectly with my rs3000.
I would need an auto slider due to my hushbox, but that looks sweet! Do you keep your lens cap when not in use?
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post #6878 of 6915 Old 02-14-2020, 04:44 PM
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I would need an auto slider due to my hushbox, but that looks sweet! Do you keep your lens cap when not in use?

Actually no. I just put it there for the picture.
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post #6879 of 6915 Old 02-14-2020, 05:25 PM
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What we want to compare is the dtm. For optimal results Lumagen suggests calibrating to gamma 2.4, madvr to gamma 2.2. Then they do their magic.
But isn't a brighter gamma going to make the "shadow recovery" look like magic, when it could just be due to gamma?
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post #6880 of 6915 Old 02-14-2020, 06:56 PM
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3D Full SBS and DCR lens

How can 3D be properly handled when using Full SBS (3180x1080p) with a fixed DCR lens considering that input and output has to be 1080p for the projector (Sony 5000), resulting in a squeezed picture, black borders on the sides?
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post #6881 of 6915 Old 02-15-2020, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by dlinsley View Post
But isn't a brighter gamma going to make the "shadow recovery" look like magic, when it could just be due to gamma?

A gamma of 2.2 or 2.4 is just an initial suggested setting. It is not the final gamma you will be viewing content. What you need to measure is gamma after tone mapping. When you do so, you 'll realize that you are viewing a different gamma curve.

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post #6882 of 6915 Old 02-15-2020, 07:35 AM
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But isn't a brighter gamma going to make the "shadow recovery" look like magic, when it could just be due to gamma?
It shouldn't if the display or 3DLUT calibration matches the expectation of either Lumagen or MadVR.

I understand on MadVR you have two options:
1) Tell it the display is already calibrated (and what gamma it is calibrated to) or
2) Provide a 3D LUT which has been output targeting gamma 2.2 (a bit of an arbitrary choice it seems but I'm sure there was some logic).

The Lumagen similarly expects either:
1) a display calibrated to 2.4 or PQ gamma or
2) A 3D LUT which has been output targeting gamma 2.4 or PQ gamma.

In either case, what you're providing is a known calibrated baseline which the math generating the tonemap can target, knowing what levels will be output for a given output value when it comes to make the conversion from linear light. The map itself should be wholly dependent on the mapping algorithm in the respective products at that point.

Of course, if you mistakenly have the display or the 3DLUT misconfigured vs what is expected, or don't know what the configuration is of your display, then you may have unexpected results, and one or other box may look better than the other misconfigured unit.

----

And I guess therein lies a bit of the rub of "plug and play" - while you can plug pretty much anything in and get a video image (usually), for it to actually have a chance of being what is intended you need to know at least what the display gamma is in the target mode on the display (assuming your display is already calibrated to track that gamma correctly), and to get the most out of it you really want to be using a 3DLUT. I think any good reseller of Lumagens could also give you a plug and play experience on that basis of the display having a known calibration.

I honestly believe anyone picking up one of these kinds of product without either the skill or will to learn calibration, or planning on using the services of a calibrator, is really missing out on a large part of what they can bring to a system.

Please note I'm certainly not saying anyone who's been doing their own comparisons here hasn't calibrated correctly. I read all such posts about quality comparisons with some interest, but it is currently of limited interest as the PC based madVR isn't useful to me in my system. I'm only really interested at the point there is a whole product as a package that can be compared with all the features I need to use.
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post #6883 of 6915 Old 02-15-2020, 08:11 AM
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We need to keep in mind there are two types of comparisons. One is head to head and the other would be each product compared to the actual studio master. While you could prefer product A over product B, product B could be closer to the studio master.
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post #6884 of 6915 Old 02-15-2020, 08:51 AM
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We need to keep in mind there are two types of comparisons. One is head to head and the other would be each product compared to the actual studio master. While you could prefer product A over product B, product B could be closer to the studio master.
Seems like an almost impossible comparison to make though. There isn't really "closer to studio master" by some objective measure.

You can't easily or obviously compare to watching a consumer HDR title on an OLED reference monitor - the reference viewing environment has bias light behind the screen, and fills a tiny portion of field of vision, plus the luminance ranges are miles apart for most projection setups. Any such comparison is going to be very much a matter of opinion as to which matches the feel the most...

Comparison to the standard theatrical release would be OK for the P3 gamut but not much use for the dynamic range handling...

I guess the best comparison - if your goal is trying to match a theatrical "as director / colorist intended" experience - would be to compare the output of Lumagen and MadVR targeting 106 nits P3 to the theatrical Dolby Vision release. It seems likely that some titles will be closer on one solution, and others on another, just because of the variability of how the DV and consumer releases were put together and how the solutions react to that.

I think any way you look at it, opinion and preference is going to be unavoidable in such comparisons, and "closer to studio master" going to be really hard to define.
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post #6885 of 6915 Old 02-15-2020, 10:14 AM
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Thought I'd chime in as I've seen my name dropped in this a lot and this thread is turning into the Envy thread rather than the Radiance thread.

I've said from the start that I'm extremely excited to see the Envy and that continues unabated. Madshi's reputation for scaling and tone mapping alone would make me want to see this ASAP. I did get a glimpse at CEDIA but not under ideal conditions, so I didn't make any judgements in quality given their limitations at the show. I did like their interface and some of the demos shown, but I will reserve final judgement for final product in a controlled environment on a calibrated display.

I do have a few concerns about MadVR in general though. They are new to the market and have entered a market that is niche at best with a very expensive product. I wish them the best in their endeavor but worry about longevity of market simply because this is not a big market. I have also seen a lot of comments from them in the Envy thread that make me cautious because at times I don't feel like they understand the market they are diving into. There is no doubt that scaling and tone mapping are old hat by now for them, but comments about not understanding why per input memories/setups would be needed or plug and play operation without the need for a manual come off a bit naive when it comes to advanced video processors and the systems they are installed in. I setup Lumagen processors in the field all the time, and do remote setup for clients before they even arrive at their doorstep. Can you plug a source into a Lumagen and then to the display and get a usable picture, ABSOLUTELY! In fact, based on their description of plug and play, you are already there with a Lumagen in the general sense. Just turn DTM on and it is already setup for a 100 nit setup for the most part. But it is VERY rare that I see setups that are this simplified. Instead you have screens with varying aspect ratios, legacy equipment that needs work arounds, various calibrations for multiple zooms/screens/displays and more. The reason some say the Lumagen is a complex piece is because it is designed to solve complex problems and requires a lot of resources and options to do it. I haven't seen any of that discussed in the Envy thread, only scaling and tone mapping. I want to see how it performs with advanced setups that require a lot fo fine tuning for ease of use and best performance. They represent the vast majority of Radiance setups I do, so I would expect the same level of flexibility and problem solving out of a product at the same price and certainly at a price premium.

The next concern is the single input design. I've seen way too many AVR/Pre-Pro's with HDMI issues to think this is going to be a good solution. Just looking at the high end market and all the HDMI issues I've seen with products like the Trinnov has me cringing. But hopefully it plays out okay. I think this can make overall operation a bit more tedious for those that need per input customization, but that tends to be a bit smaller of a group in my experience (though I still do it quite often, especially for those with legacy sources that need special EDID exceptions). A video processor for high end setups needs to be able to excel and not only the core video services (de-interlacing/scaling/tone mapping) but also at eliminating issues and creating a more user friendly viewing experience. With 99% of my Radiance clients, the only thing they have to do is turn them on and select an input and it resolves all the issues they had before. Until we start seeing people implementing Envy's into systems with varying degrees of issues that need workarounds, we won't know how they perform.

At some point I hope to have the chance to do some controlled comparisons with the Envy, I'm as excited to see how it performs compared to the Radiance as anyone. If I get the chance I'd be happy to have MadVR/Lumagen participate if they'd like to, as well as others that may want to come see for themselves.

Agree that niche is the operative word, and add to that a moving target, as displays continue to try and implement what processors offer, so as to ensure a solid user experience. That has always been the case in technology -- first the appearance of separates with later integration into the base units.



On the other hand, for calibrators like you, these represent platform/tools that get installed into customer environments which should offer up both flexibility and performance, as we know the Lumagen delivers, as well as an architecture capable of growing over time w/o the need to do frequent hardware updates/replacements (not speaking here of software/firmware updates). That means over architecting to allow for unexpected changes in sources/displays. Not a mean feat! I feel that, much like the auto industry, fewer and fewer of us are either capable or willing to expend the effort required to calibrate our own viewing environments -- can't recall the last time I wanted or could try and actually tune my car.

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post #6886 of 6915 Old 02-15-2020, 11:34 AM
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Not to turn this into a Lumagen vs. Madvr Enny, but I have to point out to this recent post: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...l#post59249132

The images are from Spears and Munsil UHD test video, taken at ISE Amsterdam a couple of days ago.

Any Lumagen owner has a copy of this UHD, and can check this test clip on his / her system, with Lumagen on/off? I know it's not much of a comparison this way, but the first set of horses screenshots is just mind-blowing.

I'm a very very happy client of Lumagen (along with a Trinnov in a 7.3.14 speaker setup) and a Sony 995 with DCR lens on the video chain.
I keep saying that the Lumagen is the best purchase I've made along with my Trinnov.

However... I'm seriously considering placing an order for the Envy Pro ultra model, installing it side-by-side in my rack, and running my own shoot out in my system. Just too curious not to see what it does in my system. Worth the price of admission for me.
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post #6887 of 6915 Old 02-15-2020, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaharT View Post
Not to turn this into a Lumagen vs. Madvr Enny, but I have to point out to this recent post: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...l#post59249132

The images are from Spears and Munsil UHD test video, taken at ISE Amsterdam a couple of days ago.

Any Lumagen owner has a copy of this UHD, and can check this test clip on his / her system, with Lumagen on/off? I know it's not much of a comparison this way, but the first set of horses screenshots is just mind-blowing.

I'm a very very happy client of Lumagen (along with a Trinnov in a 7.3.14 speaker setup) and a Sony 995 with DCR lens on the video chain.
I keep saying that the Lumagen is the best purchase I've made along with my Trinnov.

However... I'm seriously considering placing an order for the Envy Pro ultra model, installing it side-by-side in my rack, and running my own shoot out in my system. Just too curious not to see what it does in my system. Worth the price of admission for me.
I have a Sony 885ES, Lumagen with DTM, and Oppo 203. I just watched the horse clip on the Spears/Munsil disc and can safely say my picture looks pretty close to the MadVR horse pic, and doesn't look anything like the washed out horse pic. That being said, I am keeping up with the info about the Envy, to see what other people think of its performance, especially when compared to a Lumagen.


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post #6888 of 6915 Old 02-15-2020, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaharT View Post
Not to turn this into a Lumagen vs. Madvr Enny, but I have to point out to this recent post: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-vi...l#post59249132

The images are from Spears and Munsil UHD test video, taken at ISE Amsterdam a couple of days ago.

Any Lumagen owner has a copy of this UHD, and can check this test clip on his / her system, with Lumagen on/off? I know it's not much of a comparison this way, but the first set of horses screenshots is just mind-blowing.

I'm a very very happy client of Lumagen (along with a Trinnov in a 7.3.14 speaker setup) and a Sony 995 with DCR lens on the video chain.
I keep saying that the Lumagen is the best purchase I've made along with my Trinnov.

However... I'm seriously considering placing an order for the Envy Pro ultra model, installing it side-by-side in my rack, and running my own shoot out in my system. Just too curious not to see what it does in my system. Worth the price of admission for me.
At the risk of "biting"...

I hope it looks better than the photo in person and I really pity anyone watching something that looks as bad as the "before" version (but then, maybe I'm spoilt by the Lumagen )... I'm not sure which bit you think is mind-blowing. On the Envy processed one, sure, there seems a fair bit of detail - maybe much more than expected in the grass around the bottom, and in the background there is a higher level of stand-out contrast to the detail than I believe the original footage has; but there also seems also to be a lot of off-hue pink posterisation in the sky / backdrop section which hopefully is a camera artefact (or maybe not, who knows). I'm not 100% sure I like what looks like it might be a darkening of the horses vs the original source (or again, trick of the camera) - and it seems to have lost some of the difference in colouring between the horses (again, perhaps camera).

I think in reality you can just give up on photos being very useful here for comparisons, I couldn't tell you if any of the above are photo issues vs real experience. Try and get to see it in the flesh. I would certainly think though that the MadVR rendition was miles better than the "before" image, who wouldn't!

For what it is worth, this is MammothHD's stock footage page with the original. You can see the detail in the background is no-where near as prominent, and the different tone on the horses.
https://www.mammothhd.com/8K/8KGalle...D8_vv2517.html
Personally I'm not sure if the level of detail recovery seemingly being employed here in this shot is desirable if it results in more detail than the original really portrayed being recovered; that would seem a retrograde step if accuracy is what is desired. When I watch that scene on my own setup the relative levels of detail and colouring look much more like the version of the original footage on the MammothHD site.

And I guess this is in part what @Mike Garrett was saying. If accuracy is your bag, think what was the original supposed to look like, before considering if you like a new version better.

In any case, I'm not wishing to detract from the offering; I'm certainly mildly envious (pun intended) of anyone who can have both of these in their system for comparison. If you do go for it, I'm sure you'll let us know what you think...
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post #6889 of 6915 Old 02-15-2020, 03:55 PM
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I had Stacey Spears himself come over to evaluate the tone mapping of the Lumagen with his montage. He commented directly on the horse scene and the fence in the snow right before it saying that most tone mapping solutions made these scenes look too dark and that the Lumagen looked exactly how the original grade looked for balance and gamma. He particularly pointed out the fence beams, which look much too dark on most displays, even my C7 OLED.

As for comparisons, one of the prime testers for the Lumagen tone mapping is a studio grader who compares the Lumagen feeding a Dolby Cinema projector directly against a Pulsar running the original master and also the output grade master from Dolby to see how close it would get to what Dolby would do for that peak output. His opinion is the Lumagen gives a better result than the Dolby output most of the time and does a remarkable job of maintaining the intended look when compared directly to the Pulsar.
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post #6890 of 6915 Old 02-15-2020, 04:20 PM
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At the risk of "biting"...

I hope it looks better than the photo in person and I really pity anyone watching something that looks as bad as the "before" version (but then, maybe I'm spoilt by the Lumagen )... I'm not sure which bit you think is mind-blowing. On the Envy processed one, sure, there seems a fair bit of detail - maybe much more than expected in the grass around the bottom, and in the background there is a higher level of stand-out contrast to the detail than I believe the original footage has; but there also seems also to be a lot of off-hue pink posterisation in the sky / backdrop section which hopefully is a camera artefact (or maybe not, who knows). I'm not 100% sure I like what looks like it might be a darkening of the horses vs the original source (or again, trick of the camera) - and it seems to have lost some of the difference in colouring between the horses (again, perhaps camera).

I think in reality you can just give up on photos being very useful here for comparisons, I couldn't tell you if any of the above are photo issues vs real experience. Try and get to see it in the flesh. I would certainly think though that the MadVR rendition was miles better than the "before" image, who wouldn't!

For what it is worth, this is MammothHD's stock footage page with the original. You can see the detail in the background is no-where near as prominent, and the different tone on the horses.
https://www.mammothhd.com/8K/8KGalle...D8_vv2517.html
Personally I'm not sure if the level of detail recovery seemingly being employed here in this shot is desirable if it results in more detail than the original really portrayed being recovered; that would seem a retrograde step if accuracy is what is desired. When I watch that scene on my own setup the relative levels of detail and colouring look much more like the version of the original footage on the MammothHD site.

And I guess this is in part what @Mike Garrett was saying. If accuracy is your bag, think what was the original supposed to look like, before considering if you like a new version better.

In any case, I'm not wishing to detract from the offering; I'm certainly mildly envious (pun intended) of anyone who can have both of these in their system for comparison. If you do go for it, I'm sure you'll let us know what you think...
I certainly have seen stock solutions that have a hard time with that clip, especially if the tone map is set wrong (Sony's require careful setup with their stock settings (HDR Contrast) on this clip, the new JVC FATM does better). MadVR showed me this clip at CEDIA on their flat panel and I had the same reaction as you did, over contrasted. The backgrounds and horses look too dark. I showed this clip to Stacey at my house after the show to get his thoughts and he said that he's seen this look too dark with other solutions too (and the fence posts before this) and the Lumagen nailed it. My output looks nearly identical to the Mammoth clip you link to.

I've said it many times before, tone mapping is not really intended to make your low nit display look like a HDR monitor. That would require some obvious gamma manipulation to exaggerate the differences. Tone mapping is intended as an on the fly grade to the peak level of the display. So if you have a 120 nit display you are tone mapping for, the tone map result should look more in line with a true 120 nit grade, rather than an emulation of a 1000 nit monitor. You can't compare directly to a SDR grade though (100 nits) as you have to be careful of the fact that they are different color gamuts and luminance levels within the grade. Even if both were 100 nits peak, the HDR grade can have a higher luminance level within that 100 nits for color because the HDR system allows for a higher peak level for any color. So for SDR I believe peak blue is limited to 7 nits, in HDR it is not. So you can have color luminance even within the normal SDR range of luminance that is higher with HDR playback.

I think if you did direct comparisons between the Envy and Lumagen with tone mapping the end winner would simply fall to the one that consumers subjectively appreciated more. And there is nothing wrong with that when it comes to personal decisions. You're probably in a win/win situation anyways. If the tone mapping does tend to be overly aggressive in contrast enhancement, this can wear on me after awhile, similar to how Darbee processing (local contrast exaggeration) did. Hell, I find a lot of HDR to look overcooked on my OLED with content I watch. Lots of content from Amazon and Netflix look like they are trying too hard to give a HDR look with background lights or street lamps. I find it similar to 3D movies that tried to overemphasize 3D by always going for a gag to stick out the screen.
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post #6891 of 6915 Old 02-15-2020, 04:35 PM
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I think if you did direct comparisons between the Envy and Lumagen with tone mapping the end winner would simply fall to the one that consumers subjectively appreciated more. And there is nothing wrong with that when it comes to personal decisions.
Given your previous comment from Stacey Spears: "the Lumagen looked exactly how the original grade looked for balance and gamma", how can another product be "better" since the Lumagen looks EXACTLY like the source? If, on the other hand, "better" = preference, then I get that, just as many consumers prefer some version of audio that is more colored than the original source.
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post #6892 of 6915 Old 02-15-2020, 04:46 PM
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Is there a possibility that the lumagen on some movies makes it get the "soap opera" effect?

At first it was just gemini man, but I thought that was because it was filmed at 120fps. But then terminator dark fate and then tom hanks beautiful day movie. Other movies look fine. These are watching 4k HEVC files from plex on the nvidia shield and letting the frame rate play at whatever the movie is at. What causes it? I thought it was the movie but no way these are shot like that. Does everyone just watch everything at 60fps? or when watching movies go to the 24?

Would the HDR tone mapping setting do this? I have it set at 1, but feels like 2 and 3 look different. but I might just be just me frustrated and can't figure things out.
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I certainly have seen stock solutions that have a hard time with that clip, especially if the tone map is set wrong (Sony's require careful setup with their stock settings (HDR Contrast) on this clip, the new JVC FATM does better). MadVR showed me this clip at CEDIA on their flat panel and I had the same reaction as you did, over contrasted. The backgrounds and horses look too dark. I showed this clip to Stacey at my house after the show to get his thoughts and he said that he's seen this look too dark with other solutions too (and the fence posts before this) and the Lumagen nailed it. My output looks nearly identical to the Mammoth clip you link to.
I've only ever looked at that clip with the various incarnations of Lumagen DTM so it does sound like I've been spoilt I did take a quick pic for my own benefit of my own setup outputting that scene via the Lumagen and compared the result to the MammothHD image, looks as far as I can tell very similar. Of course I wasn't any the wiser to know if that was the intention in the HDR grade on the Spears & Munsil disc, sounds like you've had that confirmed though.

Quote:
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I think if you did direct comparisons between the Envy and Lumagen with tone mapping the end winner would simply fall to the one that consumers subjectively appreciated more. And there is nothing wrong with that when it comes to personal decisions. You're probably in a win/win situation anyways. If the tone mapping does tend to be overly aggressive in contrast enhancement, this can wear on me after awhile, similar to how Darbee processing (local contrast exaggeration) did.
I'm sure Envy will be good, whether the things that it seems will be different are to liking will be to some extent a matter of subjective taste as you suggest. Things like highlight recovery sound like a good idea but it doesn't take much imagination to think of ways such algorithms can get it right, and also less than right. But at the same time I've been pretty sceptical of DTM scene detection in the past and these days it only infrequently disappoints me (still happens occasionally though! ) So I remain open minded.
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post #6894 of 6915 Old 02-15-2020, 06:00 PM
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Given your previous comment from Stacey Spears: "the Lumagen looked exactly how the original grade looked for balance and gamma", how can another product be "better" since the Lumagen looks EXACTLY like the source? If, on the other hand, "better" = preference, then I get that, just as many consumers prefer some version of audio that is more colored than the original source.
Because my whole statement was based on subjective opinion. There are PLENTY of video and audio setups that I visit or experience that I don't care for at all, but the end user absolutely loves it. Same can be said for a wide variety of "image enhancements" that some on these forums swear by. Since there is no hard fast standard for tone mapping, there is always going to be some "home seasoning" involved. I think a lot of the MadVR sauce is based on the exhaustive amount of testing and input they are receiving from their PC users in the thread in the projector section. Development and feedback like that is a fantastic knowledge base to draw from both from finding errors and fixing them to getting a sense of what a cross section of users like vs dislike.

I've had a lot of hand in the development of Lumagen's tone mapping. I am not writing code or developing curves like Pat and Jim, but I've presented a lot of different approaches to the execution that I didn't see them approaching that opened different doors in a sense. This is especially the case since the first implementation of DPAD. It may look like a simple setting but its initial concept opened up a completely new approach to how the adaptive tone mapping is working. But depending on what you look for in an image or what you're sensitive to, you may find different settings and approaches work better for your subjective taste than others.
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post #6895 of 6915 Old 02-15-2020, 07:10 PM
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3D Full SBS and DCR lens

How can 3D be properly handled when using Full SBS (3180x1080p) with a fixed DCR lens considering that input and output has to be 1080p for the projector (Sony 5000), resulting in a squeezed picture, black borders on the sides?
anyone having a tip here?
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Is there any likelihood that Lumagen will make any future firmware improvements with regards to upscaling 1080p content to UHD? Although I have no way of disputing or confirming their accuracy, they're at it again on the MadVR (Envy) forum using terms like "Yes, and this is the aspect that i observed that thoroughly "Trounced" The Lumagen!!", "u have to see the upscaling capabilties , its mindblowing how close to 4K it can get when using it with regular blurays." and "Incidentally, I have been advocating madVR's unrivalled upscaling capabilities for a very long time. IMHO they are without a doubt the very best currently available."
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post #6897 of 6915 Old Yesterday, 12:56 PM
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Is there any likelihood that Lumagen will make any future firmware improvements with regards to upscaling 1080p content to UHD? Although I have no way of disputing or confirming their accuracy, they're at it again on the MadVR (Envy) forum using terms like "Yes, and this is the aspect that i observed that thoroughly "Trounced" The Lumagen!!", "u have to see the upscaling capabilties , its mindblowing how close to 4K it can get when using it with regular blurays." and "Incidentally, I have been advocating madVR's unrivalled upscaling capabilities for a very long time. IMHO they are without a doubt the very best currently available." [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]
Lumagen has a number of improvements to their pipeline they are working on at the moment, so I wouldn’t be surprised if upscaling was part of it.

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post #6898 of 6915 Old Yesterday, 01:04 PM
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Lumagen has a number of improvements to their pipeline they are working on at the moment, so I wouldn’t be surprised if upscaling was part of it.
Most excellent, Kris. I know that you always have your finger on Lumagen's pulse.........

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post #6899 of 6915 Old Yesterday, 01:19 PM
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New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series

Quote:
Originally Posted by docrog View Post
Is there any likelihood that Lumagen will make any future firmware improvements with regards to upscaling 1080p content to UHD? Although I have no way of disputing or confirming their accuracy, they're at it again on the MadVR (Envy) forum using terms like "Yes, and this is the aspect that i observed that thoroughly "Trounced" The Lumagen!!", "u have to see the upscaling capabilties , its mindblowing how close to 4K it can get when using it with regular blurays." and "Incidentally, I have been advocating madVR's unrivalled upscaling capabilities for a very long time. IMHO they are without a doubt the very best currently available."


The developers of the Envy seem like good guys and I absolutely wish them the best. Again, not minimizing anyones personal preference/opinion...The Envy unit is not in the wild yet and much is debatable at this point. At a 10k price tag for the pro version, I think the Envy needs to “trounce” at something for it to become a viable long term solution. Like someone pointed out, this is a very niche product and you are marketing to a very small group of enthusiasts. I know this...the Lumagen does things that are important to me (ie multi source video switching/calibration) that the Envy will not. I also know the guys at Lumagen have a long, long history and proven track record. I bought my first Lumagen in 2010 I believe. That is important to me when spending the $$ we are talking about. I hope we are still having this conversation a couple years from now.


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post #6900 of 6915 Old Yesterday, 01:32 PM
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The developers of the Envy seem like good guys and I absolutely wish them the best. Again, not minimizing anyones personal preference/opinion...The Envy unit is not in the wild yet and much is debatable at this point. At a 10k price tag for the pro version, I think the Envy needs to “trounce” at something for it to become a viable long term solution. Like someone pointed out, this is a very niche product and you are marketing to a very small group of enthusiasts. I know this...the Lumagen does things that are important to me (ie multi source video switching/calibration) that the Envy will not. I also know the guys at Lumagen have a long, long history and proven track record. I bought my first Lumagen in 2010 I believe. That is important to me when spending the $$ we are talking about. I hope we are still having this conversation a couple years from now.
Agree. I've owned every other 3DLUT capable processor (minimum requirement for me) from recent years and they've all been steaming piles of... from a product and support point of view. The only two consumer devices in recent history were basically half finished abandonware by their manufacturers (the Eecolor and the Prisma). I've really got a lot of respect for the guys at Lumagen for having carved out and really delivered consistent quality product that the niche wanted in their Radiance Pro lineup, along with great support.
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