New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 257 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #7681 of 8030 Old 04-28-2020, 04:46 AM
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Think of the projector gamma menu choice "2.2" as a label only. The underlying values associated with that label, on many projectors, can be altered when the calibration is done or if you manipulate them yourself. This is what is meant by having the Gamma 2.2 menu choice set to an actual gamma curve of 2.4. 2.2 label; 2.4 values.

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Originally Posted by docrog View Post
Thanks for your response, Jim, but this is all quite mystifying to me: a gamma setting (according to the PJ) of 2.2 may not actually be 2.2, but actually the closest to 2.4 based on 3D LUT calibration. BTW, I have no doubt that Craig knew how to best optimize my Radiance Pro, since you were the one who recommended him to me because of his expertise.
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post #7682 of 8030 Old 04-28-2020, 04:56 AM
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Spot on. I can clearly see my DD system (laser and iris) changes gamma up through the midtones (not pumping) in a negative way (if I look for it) relative to a non-DD image. For example, at the low end I get a much better black level with DD but the differentiation from 1% - 3% isn't as good as with a fixed curve (that has a more than 3x greater black level). I do use DD though because the higher non-DD black level is much more distracting than some slight low-end crush.

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This gives rise to a few issues with DI:
1) You can't achieve reference calibration for SDR or a reference base gamma for tone mapping because of this adjustment. It might be right at one patch size and not at another, or might not be measurably right with any patch size but might seem to subjectively work better for you. The benefit is some better blacks in some scenes.
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post #7683 of 8030 Old 04-28-2020, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docrog View Post
Thanks for your response, Jim, but this is all quite mystifying to me: a gamma setting (according to the PJ) of 2.2 may not actually be 2.2, but actually the closest to 2.4 based on 3D LUT calibration. BTW, I have no doubt that Craig knew how to best optimize my Radiance Pro, since you were the one who recommended him to me because of his expertise.
Craig is an excellent calibrator and one of the most knowledgeable out there when it comes to working with the Lumagen. The point of paying a professional like Craig is not only to get the best picture possible, but to know that YOU don't have to worry about it anymore and just sit back and enjoy. Your posts make it feel like you are obsessing about details you don't understand rather than just enjoying the product and the results. Have faith in your investment in Craig and just let it go. If he optimized your video, you aren't going to improve it on your own, so just sit back and enjoy!

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post #7684 of 8030 Old 04-28-2020, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Craig is an excellent calibrator and one of the most knowledgeable out there when it comes to working with the Lumagen. The point of paying a professional like Craig is not only to get the best picture possible, but to know that YOU don't have to worry about it anymore and just sit back and enjoy. Your posts make it feel like you are obsessing about details you don't understand rather than just enjoying the product and the results. Have faith in your investment in Craig and just let it go. If he optimized your video, you aren't going to improve it on your own, so just sit back and enjoy!
Kris, I'm very happy with Craig's calibration & set-up for my Lumagen, so that's not at all why I asked my questions. I have total confidence in the professional quality of his work and have never questioned the service that he provided. I've only been trying to understand the 2 concepts which have been recently been posted here: 1. how a stated optimal Lumagen 2.4 gamma related to the 2.2 gamma which was displayed on the PJ for Craig's user HDR mode. 2. whether enabling of the D.I. (and subsequent gamma manipulation) in any way defeated that optimal calibration (which was performed with the D.I. disabled). The fact that I had been in the dark with regards to these 2 issues doesn't mean that I'm not enjoying my video setup, only that I'd very much like to better understand the these concepts. These are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Also, many thanks to @bobof for his recent post referencing my previous questions.

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post #7685 of 8030 Old 04-28-2020, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by docrog View Post
Kris, I'm very happy with Craig's calibration & set-up for my Lumagen, so that's not at all why I asked my questions. I have total confidence in the professional quality of his work and have never questioned the service that he provided. I've only been trying to understand the 2 concepts which have been recently been posted here: 1. how a stated optimal Lumagen 2.4 gamma related to the 2.2 gamma which was displayed on the PJ for Craig's user HDR mode. 2. whether enabling of the D.I. (and subsequent gamma manipulation) in any way defeated that optimal calibration (which was performed with the D.I. disabled). The fact that I had been in the dark with regards to these 2 issues doesn't mean that I'm not enjoying my video setup, only that I'd very much like to better understand the these concepts. These are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Also, many thanks to @bobof for his recent post referencing my previous questions.
Likely the 2.2 default tracked better than the 2.4 default as the basis for the Radiance 2.4 gamma adjustments.

Regarding DTM and DI: DTM expects an unchanging gamma. DI changes gamma. Maybe you will prefer it, maybe you won't.

Did you ask Craig?

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post #7686 of 8030 Old 04-28-2020, 03:45 PM
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docrog:

I will take one final crack at helping on your question about selected versus final Gamma.

The projector setting for Gamma =2.2 is a "coarse starting point" and actually has very little to do with the achieved Gamma after calibration. The advantage of selecting a Gamma close to your target Gamma (in this case 2.4 if the projector has an accurate Gamma control) is that it means less error needs to be fixed by the 1D/3D LUT calibration. Less error in the initial coarse Gamma means less correction and a "cleaner" calibration.

I tell people calibration is like pulling on rubber bands. The less you pull the less likely they will break. Breaking in the case of calibration can lead to contouring or color error for specific levels. What I am sure happened is Craig did an initial assessment of projector Gamma and found that the "setting" of 2.2 was actually the closest the projector "achieving" a 2.4 Gamma, but it really doesn't matter. In the end, after calibration, the achieved Gamma will be 2.4 (or as close as can be achieved).

So, the net-net result is that after calibration the Gamma will be the target 2.4 even (as best achievable) if one selected 2.0 or if one selected 2.6 in the projector. The calibration changes levels so they match the target. it's just that one does not want to pull on the "rubber bands of calibration control" any harder than necessary.

I think it's time to move on, even if this is still not clear. As Kris says, sit back and enjoy your amazing image quality.
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post #7687 of 8030 Old 04-29-2020, 05:44 AM
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Question Default setting fro new calibration ...

Hello All,

I'll be doing a brand new calibration on my new room, @Gordon Fraser did the last one on my old cinema room something like an year ago.

the room now is different, the screen is different ... the lamp aged (~2500hours) and I'll be doing the calibration myself this time (Lightspace+DisplayPro3+i1Pro spectro).

I was wondering if someone can let me know the default settings on the Radiance Pro for DTM that I should use for a new calibration.

Any help would be very much appreciated :-)

thanks for the help,

Ben

Last edited by mandragora; 04-29-2020 at 05:55 AM. Reason: added Gordon Fraser
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post #7688 of 8030 Old 04-29-2020, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by jrp View Post
You, or your integrator, can contact Lumagen support for assistance.

===

These power-on issues are often power-on order issues. We also see some streamers have three stats of being: On, Sleep, and Zombie. Zombie is too strong a word, and I say it tongue-in-cheek. However, for example, we have seen DirecTV, and AppleTV 4k, act differently going into the Pro if they go to sleep for a long period, such as overnight, versus a short period of time. Other devices, such as Bluray players and Roku, do not seem to have the third mode. We do not know exactly what is happening with the streamers that have the third mode, and it is likely an interaction between the streamer HDMI output chip/software, and the Radiance Pro input chip's internal processor.

We have added two feature options that appear to resolve this in the cases we know about. The first is you program the Pro internal power-up-input-select as something other than the input you normally select (Other->On/Off Setup->Input Select. Change both input selects). Then in that same menu enable the "delay select" which waits an additional 3 seconds after the Pro thinks the source is ready before activating the input at power on (only). Then the control system can select the input you want to view.

Finally we recommend you power on in the following order:

Projector/TV
Wait 5 to 10 seconds for the projector to start its HDMI interface
Radiance Pro
Wait 5 seconds for the Pro to start its HDMI interfaces
Sources
Audio processor

Often no delays are needed. For example, my system turns everything on at the same time without delays. I do have it set to projector first, then the Pro, then the Trinnov, then sources, but as fast as it can send these commands. So, delays are not always necessary and depend on the specific equipment list.
Jim,

As per your instructions, I worked remotely with my integrator to use the Input Select option to set power-up-input-select to an unused 9GHZ input, and we enabled Delay Select as well. This solved the problem without needing to add any more delays. I am now getting picture up with every source as soon as the projector kicks in. Much better! Many thanks.
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post #7689 of 8030 Old 04-29-2020, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mandragora View Post
Hello All,

I'll be doing a brand new calibration on my new room, @Gordon Fraser did the last one on my old cinema room something like an year ago.

the room now is different, the screen is different ... the lamp aged (~2500hours) and I'll be doing the calibration myself this time (Lightspace+DisplayPro3+i1Pro spectro).

I was wondering if someone can let me know the default settings on the Radiance Pro for DTM that I should use for a new calibration.

Any help would be very much appreciated :-)

thanks for the help,

Ben

Hi, whats projector you will calibrate it with Lumagen Radiance PRO?
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post #7690 of 8030 Old 04-29-2020, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docrog View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrp View Post
- Radiance Pro DTM is designed with a fixed 2.4 Gamma in mind.
You may have read an earlier post of mine (in response to one by Kris) in which I mentioned that Craig Rounds had set up a BT.2020 user mode for my NX7 in conjunction with my Radiance Pro which specified a gamma of 2.2 as part of his calibration. Does that different gamma in any way conflict with the fact that you've designed the Radiance Pro specifically for DTM with a 2.4 gamma profile?
What I believe Kris was saying is that a setting of 2.2 could in fact be giving you an actual gamma of close to 2.4. It’s the actual gamma of the system that counts. Eg on my NX7 setting it to 2.3 gets it closest to 2.4 and then I set the target for the Lumagen autoCal to 2.4 which gets me to a system result Lumagen + NX7 of 2.4 even though my NX7 is not set to 2.4. I would expect an experienced calibrator knows how to get the best “system” result out off a set of components. Hope that helps. Stephen
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post #7691 of 8030 Old 04-29-2020, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riddle View Post
Hi, whats projector you will calibrate it with Lumagen Radiance PRO?
Hello it's Sony VW520ES https://pro.sony/en_EE/products/4k-h...rs/vpl-vw520es.
It's one of SOny first's 4k projectors.

thanks for the help!

Ben
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post #7692 of 8030 Old 04-29-2020, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jrp View Post
Never use less than a 2 meter passive HDMI cable. This is due to the HDMI equalization making the signal too hot with shorter (i.e. less attenuation) HDMI cables. Shorter cables can work, but I have hundreds of examples where they didn't work reliably over time and going to a 2 meter or 3 meter passive cable resolved the issue.
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For short distances I believe that an excellent 18GHz certified wired cable is the right way to get HDMI from sources to the Radiance Pro and from the Radiance Pro to the audio processor. IMO there is no advantage using a fiber cable for short runs, and in fact many fiber cables can increase the jitter in the process of converting the HDMI electrical signal to fiber and back. I recommend Tributaries 18 GHz certified UHDP cables for these 2 to 3 meter runs.
Thanks to help from Jim, I finally solved my drop out issue with the 18G output when my Anthem MRX1120 was in the chain:

Roku Ultra -> Lumagen -> Anthem -> RuiPro -> JVC RS3000

The 9G outputs were fine, and 18G direct to the JVC was also fine. So too 18G with the Lumagen removed from the chain. However, 18G video or audio only from the Lumagen to the Anthem would result in it losing lock on the signal occasionally, resulting in audio/video drop outs. Oddly, I never saw the problem with the Oppo 203 as the source, just with the Roku and DirecTV box.

I had switched from a 2m Monoprice 4k premium certified cable between the Lumagen and Anthem to the Tributaries 2m, but still the problem remained. What fixed it was changing to the 6m Monoprice (still passive 4k premium certified) I had on hand! The Anthem was being overloaded and needed the cable loss
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post #7693 of 8030 Old 04-29-2020, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mandragora View Post
Hello it's Sony VW520ES https://pro.sony/en_EE/products/4k-h...rs/vpl-vw520es.
It's one of SOny first's 4k projectors.

thanks for the help!

Ben

I think you have all equipment what you will need. The new software color space should come out now in beta so i think its bether wait and start with the new one.


https://www.lightillusion.com/lumagen_manual.html
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I think you have all equipment what you will need. The new software color space should come out now in beta so i think its bether wait and start with the new one.


https://www.lightillusion.com/lumagen_manual.html
Hello Riddle,

my question wasn't about software or equipment :-) I'm after default setting I should use on the Lumagen especially about DTM.
so many changes there since last time I did a calibration (about an year ago)

thanks for the help,

Ben
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mandragora View Post
Hello Riddle,

my question wasn't about software or equipment :-) I'm after default setting I should use on the Lumagen especially about DTM.
so many changes there since last time I did a calibration (about an year ago)

thanks for the help,

Ben

Hi mandragora, I’ve sent you a pm yesterday
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post #7696 of 8030 Old 04-30-2020, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by mandragora View Post
Hello Riddle,

my question wasn't about software or equipment :-) I'm after default setting I should use on the Lumagen especially about DTM.
so many changes there since last time I did a calibration (about an year ago)

thanks for the help,

Ben

Yes, there are some changes or recommendations. Kris helped me a lot with this and optimilized my devices for input. Maybe it just wants to go through the DTM settings and looks what you have there.
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Yes, there are some changes or recommendations. Kris helped me a lot with this and optimilized my devices for input. Maybe it just wants to go through the DTM settings and looks what you have there.
I understand thanks.
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post #7698 of 8030 Old 04-30-2020, 01:38 AM
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mandragora:: You do not calibrate with any HDR content or any HDR DTM settings in use. I will send you email instructions.
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post #7699 of 8030 Old 04-30-2020, 02:21 AM
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mandragora:: You do not calibrate with any HDR content or any HDR DTM settings in use. I will send you email instructions.
Hey Gordon thanks a lot for this !
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New update online!

Added ability to set 1D lut values to 12 bit precision both in menu interface (under Output: CMS: Gray/Gamma: N Points ) as well as with rs232 commands.
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Originally Posted by EVH78 View Post
New update online!

Added ability to set 1D lut values to 12 bit precision both in menu interface (under Output: CMS: Gray/Gamma: N Points ) as well as with rs232 commands.
Cool. Does any cal software support this yet @jrp ?
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Arrow Fw 042120

Quote:
Originally Posted by EVH78 View Post
New update online!

Added ability to set 1D lut values to 12 bit precision both in menu interface (under Output: CMS: Gray/Gamma: N Points ) as well as with rs232 commands.
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...ncepro_updates

042120
- Posted 050120
Added ability to set 1D lut values to 12 bit precision both in menu interface (under Output: CMS: Gray/Gamma: N Points ) as well as with rs232 commands.
See updated Tech Tip 11 for the rs232 commands.
Added external trigger setting for input aspect > 1.95 (only available on units with this option installed).
Small improvement for interlaced auto aspect detection.
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware
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Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php...ncepro_updates

042120
- Posted 050120
Added ability to set 1D lut values to 12 bit precision both in menu interface (under Output: CMS: Gray/Gamma: N Points ) as well as with rs232 commands.
See updated Tech Tip 11 for the rs232 commands.
Added external trigger setting for input aspect > 1.95 (only available on units with this option installed).
Small improvement for interlaced auto aspect detection.
Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware

Dose this update mean if we want the benefit of the pipeline to recalibrate ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Dose this update mean if we want the benefit of the pipeline to recalibrate ?


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I believe yes
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I believe yes

Thx so wait till the pandemic Go

Till that time many thing will add so do it once


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post #7706 of 8030 Old 05-02-2020, 01:05 PM
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I believe yes
It's probably more an "it depends".
Lightspace and Colourspace both allow you to re-generate and re-upload LUTs from an existing profile.
If (I've asked the question of Light Illusion) they are supporting the extra digit then you should be able to just re-upload.
There is an additional complication - this probably only works for combined 3D+1D LUT upload, which up until recently was the only upload option for LS. If you've split your calibration for maximum accuracy and done the 1DLUT first and then the 3DLUT, you'd probably want to at least re-do the 3DLUT portion of your calibration. You could probably re-upload the existing 1D portion though - but that's the quickest bit to do generally.
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post #7707 of 8030 Old 05-02-2020, 06:56 PM
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You, or your integrator, can contact Lumagen support for assistance.

===

These power-on issues are often power-on order issues. We also see some streamers have three stats of being: On, Sleep, and Zombie. Zombie is too strong a word, and I say it tongue-in-cheek. However, for example, we have seen DirecTV, and AppleTV 4k, act differently going into the Pro if they go to sleep for a long period, such as overnight, versus a short period of time. Other devices, such as Bluray players and Roku, do not seem to have the third mode. We do not know exactly what is happening with the streamers that have the third mode, and it is likely an interaction between the streamer HDMI output chip/software, and the Radiance Pro input chip's internal processor.

We have added two feature options that appear to resolve this in the cases we know about. The first is you program the Pro internal power-up-input-select as something other than the input you normally select (Other->On/Off Setup->Input Select. Change both input selects). Then in that same menu enable the "delay select" which waits an additional 3 seconds after the Pro thinks the source is ready before activating the input at power on (only). Then the control system can select the input you want to view.

Finally we recommend you power on in the following order:

Projector/TV
Wait 5 to 10 seconds for the projector to start its HDMI interface
Radiance Pro
Wait 5 seconds for the Pro to start its HDMI interfaces
Sources
Audio processor

Often no delays are needed. For example, my system turns everything on at the same time without delays. I do have it set to projector first, then the Pro, then the Trinnov, then sources, but as fast as it can send these commands. So, delays are not always necessary and depend on the specific equipment list.
That post is gold. I was having a lot of trouble when turning everything on. Not infrequently I would have to restart several times till things worked properly. I have a smart remote and since I reprogrammed the starting sequence according to the above instructions I've had zero issues. If you are blaming the cables for any issues you are having, implement the above instructions before throwing them out for some fancy expensive replacement. Btw I have only done the minimum of the above, which means I skipped the first part about "the Pro internal power-up-input-select" and set the delays in the power on order to 5 seconds. Obviously if you have one of those troublesome devices you might have to do follow the instructions to the max.
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post #7708 of 8030 Old 05-03-2020, 05:21 AM
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I can understand how the prior firmware change had universal appeal because of the addition (among other tweaks) of zone based DTM. But, can anyone inform me as to what's actually gained with the latest posted firmware update? How will these changes be noticed by those users with basic Radiance Pro setups without performance issues? Thanks!

JVC NX7, Yamaha RX-A3080 (2 discrete 7.2.4 speaker layouts: Dolby Atmos & DTS:X), Lumagen Radiance Pro 4240, 127" 16x9 Stewart StudioTek G4 fixed screen, Panasonic UB420, Sony UBP-X800, ATV4K, Roku Ultra, TiVo Bolt Vox, Vandersteen Model 3 Signatures & VCC-1 Signature, Atlantic Technology (side, rear, front height & overhead) surrounds, SVS SB-2000 (2), Clark Synthesis Tactile Bass Transducers (2), Polk PSW-12
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post #7709 of 8030 Old 05-03-2020, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
It's probably more an "it depends".
Lightspace and Colourspace both allow you to re-generate and re-upload LUTs from an existing profile.
If (I've asked the question of Light Illusion) they are supporting the extra digit then you should be able to just re-upload.
There is an additional complication - this probably only works for combined 3D+1D LUT upload, which up until recently was the only upload option for LS. If you've split your calibration for maximum accuracy and done the 1DLUT first and then the 3DLUT, you'd probably want to at least re-do the 3DLUT portion of your calibration. You could probably re-upload the existing 1D portion though - but that's the quickest bit to do generally.
This update for precision is ONLY for the 1D LUT, has nothing to do with the 3D LUT. Right now there are no software options that take advantage of the extra precision, you'd have to tune it manually. I'm sure we'll see solutions catch up at some point in the future though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by docrog View Post
I can understand how the prior firmware change had universal appeal because of the addition (among other tweaks) of zone based DTM. But, can anyone inform me as to what's actually gained with the latest posted firmware update? How will these changes be noticed by those users with basic Radiance Pro setups without performance issues? Thanks!
Neither of the last two updates (including zone based DTM) are releases that I would say are for readily apparent jumps in picture quality. The DTM update was more about artifacts for difficult scenes alleviation more than an increase in perceptible performance of the DTM. It is just a further refinement in the way the DTM works to eliminate the rare instance of an artifact. The new precision update is for calibrators to have a bit more precision when dialing in the grayscale/gamma. The 1D LUT has ALWAYS been 12 bits in precision, but on the input value side it was limited to 10-bit, which truncates a bit of the performance. The main benefit of this will be precision near black when dialing in grayscale/gamma.
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post #7710 of 8030 Old 05-03-2020, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
This update for precision is ONLY for the 1D LUT, has nothing to do with the 3D LUT. Right now there are no software options that take advantage of the extra precision, you'd have to tune it manually. I'm sure we'll see solutions catch up at some point in the future though.



Neither of the last two updates (including zone based DTM) are releases that I would say are for readily apparent jumps in picture quality. The DTM update was more about artifacts for difficult scenes alleviation more than an increase in perceptible performance of the DTM. It is just a further refinement in the way the DTM works to eliminate the rare instance of an artifact. The new precision update is for calibrators to have a bit more precision when dialing in the grayscale/gamma. The 1D LUT has ALWAYS been 12 bits in precision, but on the input value side it was limited to 10-bit, which truncates a bit of the performance. The main benefit of this will be precision near black when dialing in grayscale/gamma.
Thanks for your explanation, Kris. Am I correct to assume that, barring any further "earth shaking" firmware updates, I can wait until Craig returns next year before updating to the latest firmware since I don't personally calibrate my equipment?

JVC NX7, Yamaha RX-A3080 (2 discrete 7.2.4 speaker layouts: Dolby Atmos & DTS:X), Lumagen Radiance Pro 4240, 127" 16x9 Stewart StudioTek G4 fixed screen, Panasonic UB420, Sony UBP-X800, ATV4K, Roku Ultra, TiVo Bolt Vox, Vandersteen Model 3 Signatures & VCC-1 Signature, Atlantic Technology (side, rear, front height & overhead) surrounds, SVS SB-2000 (2), Clark Synthesis Tactile Bass Transducers (2), Polk PSW-12
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