New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series - Page 259 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #7741 of 8031 Old 05-09-2020, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Jim Peterson and I were featured on a recent podcast and talked all things Lumagen. This was my second appearance on "The Fun Waste of Time" podcast, which is run by a HT Enthuasist who is also one of my calibration clients. You can check it out on my podcast services or at the link below.

Fun Waste of Time Podcast

I also just did a web seminar with Metra and JVC about projector calibration (we didn't get to everything in the time allotted, so probably will have a follow up on this) and we discuss the Lumagen for a few minutes.

Theater Calibration with JVC and Deep Dive AV

Great podcast - really enjoyed it. And a really good discussion / explanation about HDR dynamic tone mapping for those of us who don’t have the technical understanding of how it works.

Jim - you should consider building a hush box for your rs4500 so you can tap into its full potential on high laser for HDR content. You are at 88 nits / 26 fL now (I believe you said medium laser)- if not for the brightness, high laser would allow you to close down the manual iris more to enhance contrast. My sealed and ventilated hush box (for rs4500) will be installed in a couple weeks in my theater under construction and cost about $1500 in usd for the box, optical glass, and in line ventilation fan/thermostat. Personally I think it’s money well spent.
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post #7742 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 01:56 AM
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If anyone knows how to change the dE formulas for LUT generation for LightSpace, please tell me. I've been wondering why I can't change that or find a way. Thanks.
No dE formula should ever be used for 'calibration'.
It is totally incorrect to do so, as dE is only viable as a measurement metric to assess likely accuracy.
It is not in any way suitable for actual LUT generation, and any calibration system that attempts that shows a serious lack of understanding.

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post #7743 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Jim Peterson and I were featured on a recent podcast and talked all things Lumagen. This was my second appearance on "The Fun Waste of Time" podcast, which is run by a HT Enthuasist who is also one of my calibration clients. You can check it out on my podcast services or at the link below.
AV[/url]
Kris,
Great Podcast - I was hoping that a question was asked of Jim Peterson on the Hardware Upgradeability of the Lumagen Radiance Pro.
Since it was launched in 2015 and we are now in 2020....
When Lumagen Plans to upgrade or is it even necessary nd whenever they do, will they have a upgrade path for the current owners.
I am a Lumagen Skeptic - used it with my DWIN CRT projector early 2000.... and now a huge fan. Could not imagine watching HDR material without the Lumagen on my VW5000.
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post #7744 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Kris,
Great Podcast - I was hoping that a question was asked of Jim Peterson on the Hardware Upgradeability of the Lumagen Radiance Pro.
Since it was launched in 2015 and we are now in 2020....
Asked the same thing just a bit ago. Jim generally has got this "tendency" to ignore some posts - for whatever reasons. Maybe just because they are not on current his road map or prioritised. I understand he is a busy man.
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post #7745 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Kris,
Great Podcast - I was hoping that a question was asked of Jim Peterson on the Hardware Upgradeability of the Lumagen Radiance Pro.
Since it was launched in 2015 and we are now in 2020....
When Lumagen Plans to upgrade or is it even necessary nd whenever they do, will they have a upgrade path for the current owners.
I am a Lumagen Skeptic - used it with my DWIN CRT projector early 2000.... and now a huge fan. Could not imagine watching HDR material without the Lumagen on my VW5000.
I don't think any product manufacturer would reveal road maps out of concern of killing current stock if the new product is more than a year away. That is why computer, camera, projector makers always wait till the last second before announcing any new products. That timing of stock supply is a never perfect science. Do it too early and you get stuck with a warehouse full of unsold older products, do it too late and you risk running out of stock of older products while waiting for new products to be manufactured.
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post #7746 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 09:34 AM
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Jim Peterson of Lumagen Inc. Interview on "The Fun Waste of Time" Podcast

Another awesome episode of "The Fun Waste of Time" podcast has dropped! In this dedicated "Home Theater Experience (HTX) episode, Jim Peterson, President of Lumagen Inc., creator of the MAGNIFICENT Lumagen Radiance Pro video processor and owner of this fantastic theater joins the show! Listen in as Jim discusses the multitude of features and capabilities the Radiance Pro has to drastically improve the home theater experience.

Jim shares how the Lumagen Radiance Pro increases home theater immersion with features like aspect ratio control (getting rid of horizontal and vertical black bars on movies, tv shows and video games), “NoRing” scaling (excellent video upscaling), the recently added “Game” mode for low latency gaming (potentially decreasing latency down to 2 milliseconds), 1D and 3D LUT calibration, proprietary Dynamic Tone Mapping to improve HDR performance and much...much more!

Jim also shares his thoughts on what it takes to set up a satisfying home theater.

As an added bonus…Kris Deering, writer for Sound and Vision Magazine and owner of Deep Dive AV, co-hosts this episode and provides his insight on the Lumagen Radiance Pro not only as a calibrator, but as a customer as well.

There's all this and much more in episode 21 of "The Fun Waste of Time" podcast!

Check out it on the following podcast platforms:

Google - https://podcasts.google.com/?q=The%2...te%20of%20time

Apple - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...PQ9kCUdNxeFdB4

Stitcher - https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-fun-waste-of-time

Official Podcast Link - http://funwot.libsyn.com/website
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post #7747 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Ash Sharma View Post
Kris,
Great Podcast - I was hoping that a question was asked of Jim Peterson on the Hardware Upgradeability of the Lumagen Radiance Pro.
Since it was launched in 2015 and we are now in 2020....
When Lumagen Plans to upgrade or is it even necessary nd whenever they do, will they have a upgrade path for the current owners.
I am a Lumagen Skeptic - used it with my DWIN CRT projector early 2000.... and now a huge fan. Could not imagine watching HDR material without the Lumagen on my VW5000.
I have not idea what Lumagen's hardware upgrade path is for future products. The only real hardware upgrade I could think of is HDMI 2.1, but I don't know how relevant it would be to the Lumagen in general as it is a not a 8K upscaler and the bulk of the other features of that format revolve around the gaming world. I would imagine to take full advantage of those features would require a new processor from the ground up. Jim has already stated that they are continuing their refinement of their pipeline precision and performance, and I think that is their priority for the time being.
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post #7748 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
I don't think any product manufacturer would reveal road maps out of concern of killing current stock if the new product is more than a year away. That is why computer, camera, projector makers always wait till the last second before announcing any new products. That timing of stock supply is a never perfect science. Do it too early and you get stuck with a warehouse full of unsold older products, do it too late and you risk running out of stock of older products while waiting for new products to be manufactured.
You are missing the point. We are talking solely hardware upgrades ( for example HDMI 2.1 boards) that could be added.

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post #7749 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 10:15 AM
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You are missing the point. We are talking solely hardware upgrades ( for example HDMI 2.1 boards) that could be added.
Not missing the point...let's say that he is NOT planning hardware up grades but a whole new product...and he reveals that here now but still has 1000 units of old stock. If that new hardware is more than, let's say, six months away he can pretty much say good-bye to any new buyers that wanted to buy a unit between now now and next 3-4 months since they rather wait for the new product.

There is a fine line of stock supply that small manufacturers have to deal with when talking about upgrades and/or new products. For the consumer it's a lot easier...buy now, wait for upgrades or wait for new products. The less the consumer knows the easier it is for sellers to keep old stocks at a minimum.
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post #7750 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
Not missing the point...let's say that he is NOT planning hardware up grades but a whole new product...and he reveals that here now but still has 1000 units of old stock. If that new hardware is more than, let's say, six months away he can pretty much say good-bye to any new buyers that wanted to buy a unit between now now and next 3-4 months since they rather wait for the new product.

There is a fine line of stock supply that small manufacturers have to deal with when talking about upgrades and/or new products. For the consumer it's a lot easier...buy now, wait for upgrades or wait for new products. The less the consumer knows the easier it is for sellers to keep old stocks at a minimum.
I hear you. But they did the same thing with the 9Ghz and 18 Ghz HDMI boards, you could just simply add them to your configuration OR add them later any time.
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post #7751 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 10:23 AM
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I hear you. But they did the same thing with the 9Ghz and 18 Ghz HDMI boards, you could just simply add them to your configuration OR add them later any time.
I am willing to bet that announcement was made when the road map was completely clear for then 2-3 years. No danger of cannibalizing your stock.
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post #7752 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 11:36 AM
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For what it is worth I don't think we're going to see any HDMI2.1 product that any of us in the HT projection space are going to really care about in a long, long time. Without support all the way through the chain and into the display, pretty much all the features of HDMI2.1 amount to nothing, and I don't see any sign that we'll get HDMI2.1 in high-end HT projectors this year, maybe not even next. JVC only just got their new range with all new electronics out in the market in the last year and I'll be mildly surprised if Sony are even still in the market next year, which then mostly leaves the odd DLP HT unit and the ultra-high end units crossing over from the commercial world like the Christie & Barco units.

Then there is the question of HDMI2.1 sources... There's almost certainly not going to be an 8K disc format (4K releases are already pitiful in bredth and sell-through) and the current content production and distribution systems already balk at 4K requirements for cable, satellite and streaming distribution. By the time everything catches up there probably won't be streaming boxes for 8K services and it will all be OTT delivery into apps embedded in the displays.

I think probably the only folk who are really going to care about HDMI2.1 at the end of the day are going to be gamers.
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post #7753 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 11:47 AM
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New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series

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Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
Not missing the point...let's say that he is NOT planning hardware up grades but a whole new product...and he reveals that here now but still has 1000 units of old stock. If that new hardware is more than, let's say, six months away he can pretty much say good-bye to any new buyers that wanted to buy a unit between now now and next 3-4 months since they rather wait for the new product.

There is a fine line of stock supply that small manufacturers have to deal with when talking about upgrades and/or new products. For the consumer it's a lot easier...buy now, wait for upgrades or wait for new products. The less the consumer knows the easier it is for sellers to keep old stocks at a minimum.

I think this is true, but then you also have customers like me, who just refuse to buy a five year old piece of electronics, unless it’s an amplifier or some other fundamentally basic equipment. You have to give *some* indication that the product line is going somewhere.

Often companies will issue a refresh with minor spec bumps, or a new chassis or something, just to indicate at least that this thing is going to be the state of the art for some time. If you go five years people start to just assume something new is on the horizon, or sense stagnation and look elsewhere.

Edit - just to be clear I do realize there has been firmware end feature work ongoing over the years. However, I think the longer the hardware goes, the shorter the runway for improvements. I think about the RS4500 for example and how the newer NX line got DTM but the RS4500 hardware couldn’t handle it. From a layman’s point of view, We assume at some point the Radiance Pro is going to be constrained on what they can do with it.

Lakeview Cinema build thread

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post #7754 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 12:06 PM
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I think this is true, but then you also have customers like me, who just refuse to buy a five year old piece of electronics, unless it’s an amplifier or some other fundamentally basic equipment. You have to give *some* indication that the product line is going somewhere.

Often companies will issue a refresh with minor spec bumps, or a new chassis or something, just to indicate at least that this thing is going to be the state of the art for some time. If you go five years people start to just assume something new is on the horizon, or sense stagnation and look elsewhere.
I can't help but feel for the guys at Lumagen though with comment like this. They've been delivering new functionality in new hardware in the shape of new FPGA designs into these boxes since they arrived in the market, the most recent being the ultra low latency while retaining most processing functionality game mode delivered just a few days ago. The hardware is still not full, there are still new hardware features on the horizon. Another manufacturer could have slapped an i or x on the end of the model numbers and sold a new version product on the back of that - heck, JVC have delivered far less than that in the way of incremental upgrades over the previous projector model range's history; they got 10 years out of the last product. Would that have been a better strategy - orphaning off all our product chasing new bucks every year for often significant features that we could have had in our boxes?

If there's something that you have a good use-case for wanting in the product that is stopping you buying it, put it out there - there is every chance it might be able to be done in the product that is already here as the hardware is still capable of plenty more.
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post #7755 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 12:18 PM
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New Lumagen Radiance Pro Series

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I can't help but feel for the guys at Lumagen though with comment like this. They've been delivering new functionality in new hardware in the shape of new FPGA designs into these boxes since they arrived in the market, the most recent being the ultra low latency while retaining most processing functionality game mode delivered just a few days ago. The hardware is still not full, there are still new hardware features on the horizon. Another manufacturer could have slapped an i or x on the end of the model numbers and sold a new version product on the back of that - heck, JVC have delivered far less than that in the way of incremental upgrades over the previous projector model range's history; they got 10 years out of the last product. Would that have been a better strategy - orphaning off all our product chasing new bucks every year for often significant features that we could have had in our boxes?

If there's something that you have a good use-case for wanting in the product that is stopping you buying it, put it out there - there is every chance it might be able to be done in the product that is already here as the hardware is still capable of plenty more.

Perhaps it’s just a marketing thing, then, if they’re actually refreshing the hardware without any obvious indication to the consumer.

It reminds me of the Valentine One radar detector. Same chassis for decades but they changed the guts all the time and offer a rebuild/update for anyone who sends one in.

To your last point, I sort of feel like we can’t expect customers to be savvy enough to know the limits of FPGAs they use and whether or not the processors will be able to be competitive with newer hardware others might release in the near future. They’d do well to be savvy enough marketers to signal that their products are current in some fashion, even if under the hood they use the same or slightly tweaked versions of the same chips. As consumers we are generally trusting them to be the experts, but as the hardware ages one begins to wonder what is coming or how much longer the current can go.

Lakeview Cinema build thread

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post #7756 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 12:33 PM
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I guess perhaps it’s less of an issue for them, if they’re focusing on sales through integrators and calibrators like Kris. They don’t have to worry so much about consumer impressions to sell their product, they have trained people who know.

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post #7757 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 01:23 PM
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Perhaps it’s just a marketing thing, then, if they’re actually refreshing the hardware without any obvious indication to the consumer.

It reminds me of the Valentine One radar detector. Same chassis for decades but they changed the guts all the time and offer a rebuild/update for anyone who sends one in.

To your last point, I sort of feel like we can’t expect customers to be savvy enough to know the limits of FPGAs they use and whether or not the processors will be able to be competitive with newer hardware others might release in the near future. They’d do well to be savvy enough marketers to signal that their products are current in some fashion, even if under the hood they use the same or slightly tweaked versions of the same chips. As consumers we are generally trusting them to be the experts, but as the hardware ages one begins to wonder what is coming or how much longer the current can go.
I should be clear; there are a couple of small rolling tweaks Jim has mentioned to the physical hardware in recent time - the use of high-end microwave caps on the HDMI boards for example - and the 44xx series went from 2U to 1U with a new board design, but the core HW shipping in the box is the same. The hardware updates I'm predominantly referring to are new hardware designs being uploaded into the FPGA, either having been provided in the factory, or via an upgrade in the home through the USB port.

FPGAs are significantly different to CPUs or GPUs in that they are almost unfathomably configurable, with huge arrays of small logic blocks waiting to be tied together into functionality, but otherwise dumb as a box of spanners at factory time. That allows functionality to be added at a very low level, not possible with other technologies. The recently added game mode is a particularly poignant example as another product about to launch onto the market in this space can't have that feature now or ever with the hardware it is shipping with in the box; yet you've got something that has made it into "old" territory in your mind being updated with a significant remote hardware update to support such functionality. The mind boggles.

I'm just an end user at the end of the day though and I have no knowledge of Lumagen's roadmap, but if I was building another theatre tomorrow I wouldn't hesitate to get one again as it is still the only shipping solution for getting really high quality video processing and it ticks all the boxes I need. Something else may always be around the corner; and if I'd gone with that thought I wouldn't have enjoyed coming up for 18 months of DTM (or intensity mapping before than), plus the extensive 3DLUT and aspect processing that has always been a cornerstone of the Lumagen Radiance series.
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post #7758 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 01:52 PM
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I have a little question, how big of a difference in PQ can can do better power supply (linear toroide) with Lumagen? Today I tested a new linear toroide power supply (12V 25W) one on my Zidoo Z9S and I was pleasantly surprised how was improved PQ (colors, detail).


Thank you
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post #7759 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 02:30 PM
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I have a little question, how big of a difference in PQ can can do better power supply (linear toroide) with Lumagen? Today I tested a new linear toroide power supply (12V 25W) one on my Zidoo Z9S and I was pleasantly surprised how was improved PQ (colors, detail).


Thank you
I have been looking into this for some time. I believe the improvement on video would be nearly none. The board is low noise low jitter design with filters in place and good regulation all around (especially in the latest revision board). On a very revealing system audio might improve. There are some concerns with a linear supply on the Lumagen Pro. Currently it consumes 2.5A and above 3.6A when HDR video is fed. There are improvements to the pipeline and added new features in talk for the near future. So it is like these numbers will be even higher soon. Currently, Radiance Pro is provided with a 5A switching mode power supply for this reason. A linear power supply will run very warm at 5A load. If you must have one, make sure you have enough heatsinks on it and it won’t cook your equipment cabinet. Also, if there is any DC bias in your AC line, the toroidal linear supply will buzz.

Look into Keces Audio P8 single output for the linear supply and Ghent Audio for the DC cable upgrade. Cinemike in Germany uses the same supply but upgrades the internals.
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post #7760 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 02:51 PM
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I am willing to bet that announcement was made when the road map was completely clear for then 2-3 years. No danger of cannibalizing your stock.
They are still selling those 9Ghz models. I seriously cannot see here any cannibalizig of stock when you have different models since they do not come with the same price tag....
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post #7761 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 02:57 PM
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For what it is worth I don't think we're going to see any HDMI2.1 product that any of us in the HT projection space are going to really care about in a long, long time.

Asides gaming with 4:4:4 12 bit at 2160p120 on my TV I could also imagine feeding 8K material to my projector if the radiance pro was able to do the (down-) scaling and processing.
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post #7762 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 03:02 PM
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... Jim - you should consider building a hush box for your rs4500 so you can tap into its full potential on high laser for HDR content. You are at 88 nits / 26 fL now (I believe you said medium laser)- if not for the brightness, high laser would allow you to close down the manual iris more to enhance contrast. My sealed and ventilated hush box (for rs4500) will be installed in a couple weeks in my theater under construction and cost about $1500 in usd for the box, optical glass, and in line ventilation fan/thermostat. Personally I think it’s money well spent.
I have been considering a hush-box, but at the moment my wife has veto'd it as being unsightly. I am working on convincing her as I would like the extra light output. The current 88 nits actually looks great with the Radiance Pro DTM. So not in a huge rush to build the hush box.
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post #7763 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by EVH78 View Post
Asides gaming with 4:4:4 12 bit at 2160p120 on my TV I could also imagine feeding 8K material to my projector if the radiance pro was able to do the (down-) scaling and processing.
Which projector is this that supports 8K input?
Edit: sorry, I misread that. I think it is pretty fringe since there isn't any commercial content of note. 8k seems like it is dead out of the gates to be honest. At the end of the day I guess if enough folk want to do it a product is likely to happen.

Last edited by bobof; 05-10-2020 at 03:34 PM.
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post #7764 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by EVH78 View Post
They are still selling those 9Ghz models. I seriously cannot see here any cannibalizig of stock when you have different models since they do not come with the same price tag....
Yeah, you got me on that one but if I am not mistaken, if you buy the 9Ghz unit and then want to upgrade it all to 18Ghz you will pay more to upgrade the cards than if you just bought the 18Ghz to begin with...right?. Upgrades are always more expensive than just buying native.
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post #7765 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 03:38 PM
 
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Which projector is this that supports 8K input?
Assuming poster was trying to future proof their video processor by finding one that will either process or pass an 8K signal when and if an 8K projector becomes available. The JVC RS3000 can create a faux 8K image via eshifting a native 4K image but cannot accept an 8k signal. Most owners despise the 8K pixel shifting and wish it had not be included.

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post #7766 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 03:54 PM
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Not only is the Lumagen a vital component in any high end video chain with constant amazing and upgrades, but, according to the first image of your theater seen above, you are as Anal/OCD as I am. Nothing speaks to that like marks from a vacuum cleaner.
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post #7767 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
Assuming poster was trying to future proof their video processor by finding one that will either process or pass an 8K signal when and if an 8K projector becomes available. The JVC RS3000 can create a faux 8K image via eshifting a native 4K image but cannot accept an 8k signal. Most owners despise the 8K pixel shifting and wish it had not be included.
I'd mis-read the original post, but yes, the inclusion of the extra pixel shifting element in the light path after going to the expense of getting lovely lens in the NX9 seems like a superb own goal scored on the part of JVC. It's the feature no-one asked for nor needed, seems like a way to try and justify the price for that product.

With those requirements the OP on the subject will likely be talking themselves into no video processor as I'm not aware of any in the pipeline from any manufacturer with HDMI2.1 inputs. I think that is a big shame if they have a significant theatre as it will limit the quality achievable for the 99.9% of content that isn't HFR or 8k.
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post #7768 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Which projector is this that supports 8K input?
Assuming poster was trying to future proof their video processor by finding one that will either process or pass an 8K signal when and if an 8K projector becomes available. The JVC RS3000 can create a faux 8K image via eshifting a native 4K image but cannot accept an 8k signal. Most owners despise the 8K pixel shifting and wish it had not be included.

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Can the pixel shift not be turned off?

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post #7769 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 04:26 PM
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Can the pixel shift not be turned off?
Yes, but you can't remove the extra optical element from the lightpath - it merely stays in one position. There is suspicion it is responsible for some detriment to the 4K image even disabled.
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post #7770 of 8031 Old 05-10-2020, 04:37 PM
 
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[quote=Erod;59625072]Can the pixel shift not be turned off?[/quote @bobof already replied accurately. Conspiracy theorists believe just the presence of the extra optical element degrades the image quality. . But seriously some people do believe that it does. I don't know of any NX9 owners who use the 8k pixel shifting feature.

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